Trevor Hanson - The Art Of Attracting (And Keeping) A Great Relationship

Each emotional experience you create between you and your partner either adds to a sense of security or subtracts from it. And if you just continue to add good, safe emotional experiences, you train yourself, your partner, your nervous system into a place of feeling secure. Is it chemistry or are they filling a wound that you have from the past? And it feels really exciting and it feels really good.

What do you do to maintain spark and spontaneity in your marriage? And what do you recommend people do to do that in their own.

I think it's just.

Trevor Hanson, welcome to the Man Talk Show. How you doing, brother?

Dude, I'm doing so well. I'm excited to be here. I've been looking forward to having a chat with you on the show for a while. It's fun, fun to be sitting with you.

Likewise. Likewise. A lot of life happened. I think we were trying to coordinate this for a while. You became a dad. And so I think. I think this is going to be great. Where I want to start is just a. Just a sort of like big high level question, which is what is the secret formula for a successful love life? If there is one? What's the formula that people need to know about?

I've been thinking a lot about this lately, actually. It's like, what. What is the construction process of. I've been calling it secure relationship, but I guess that's a little bit more nerdy or clinical speak. If you're a therapist, you might say those kind of things, but, you know, or a successful relationship. And I think it comes. I've watched couples that I work with and I go, what is it that leads them there? Because there's a moment or kind of a series of moments where you're like, oh, wow. Like this is it. Like they're. They're finding it. They're getting close to, you know, we call it graduating or moving on from whatever, you know, work we're doing. And I think it comes down to just a series of micro interactions that create safety. It's the emotional experience. Each emotional experience you create between you and your partner either adds to a sense of security or subtracts from it. And if you just continue to add good, safe emotional experiences, you train yourself, your partner, your nervous system into a place of feeling secure.

I agree. I'm going to push back and play devil's advocate, please, because I think, I think most people have had the experience of being. Being exactly in the position you're talking about. Having safety, having security relationally and feeling bored or losing sexual attraction. And I think when you know, it's like, what's the, what causes unsafe, insecure relationships to have such wild and crazy sex? Like, I think we'll just, we'll just put it, we'll put it that way, right? Because I think a lot of people, that's a lot of people's experiences, you know, where it's like you get into a relationship with somebody that you, you know, you kind of know isn't super safe or secure or they, you kind of feel anxious or, you know, there's a lot of, there's maybe like a little bit of stress or tension around it, but you have really good quote unquote chemistry. And then you get into a relationship with somebody that is safe and is secure and all of a sudden that chemistry goes down. And I think a lot of people equate safety and security with low sexual satisfaction or like low sexual chemistry. And so what's, what's your thought on that? I know I'm opening up a can of worms, but let's go.

No, this is good, this is good. So I think, I think there's kind of two I, I, and I'm sure it's more complex than this, but oftentimes I try to see kind of the roadmap of relationships on first foundationally, like security and then connection is kind of like the higher level. If we become like self actualized, that's one thing, but like almost actualized as a relationship. I think connection is higher level. You gotta be able to just like survive and not be, you know, cutting each other's throats every second, I think to have sustainable connection. But what you're talking about, I honestly think it kind of leverages our nervous system and how the dopamine system works, you think about, you know, I think the world has really reconfigured its concept of dopamine thanks to guys like Andrew Huberman. Talking about the pursuit of pleasure or the escape from discomfort really will increase that dopaminergic response within the body. And as that dopamine is hitting, you're going to have a real like hungry drive for the relief and, and discomfort and pain will increase that drive. If you're in a connected relationship, you may not be feeling as of that discomfort and pain. And so that when you get to the relief, let's say it is sex, it may not be hitting as hard, you know, you're not getting that rush. But I think, well, and maybe I'm throwing in a new word here that I don't always necessarily love or agree with But I think, you know, a quote unquote toxic relationship that's very up and very down. It really leverages the dopamine system to become addictive. And your hits become in addiction are always going to be much more like euphoric than just the constant inflow of, you know, positive connection, safety and security. Does it mean that you can't have, like, really amazing, mind blowing, connecting, like sex or connecting experiences in a relationship that is pretty stable and you're not having that distress? Sure, there's a way to do that. But I think you and I are peeling back, like, maybe a little bit of awareness of how it might take some intentional, intentional focusing in order to still get that connecting amazing sexual experience or connecting experience or what have you. But yeah, I think, I think it comes down to a lot of it is leverage in biology.

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Yeah, one, you know, not to say that this is the one answer, but one thought that comes to my mind is I did a post forever ago about this idea that says, is it chemistry or are they filling a wound that you have from the past? And it feels really exciting and it feels really good. Like if dad was really emotionally distant and unavailable and you, you wind up dating somebody or getting with somebody who is similar in hopes of kind of the nervous system's attempt to repair, you know, I think we look for opportunities to repair trauma, and especially if that person starts responding in positive ways, in ways that you have longed for. And that's awesome. In the beginning, especially. And they might in the beginning, like, things change as relationships develop. But I think asking ourselves, like, what is actually chemistry or what is me trying to fill a wound? And it feels really good to have that wound filled. But you have to, I guess you have to be a bit aware of those wounds first. Maybe that's, you know, as you start asking, like, how do you approach that? I think that's the first part. It's like, where do some of my, you know, attachment wounds or kind of core wounds or parental wounds or whatever you want to call them? Where do they exist? And am I. And am I aware of them? And I. Am I aware of when I'm utilizing this relationship to fill those wounds? I think that might be an important question to explore.

Yeah, I think, I think you're onto something. I think that that piece of, like, seeing how that charge or that intensity of connection or that intensity of chemistry, because it can be, you know, it can be hard to let go of that because we can get stuck on the, like, hedonic treadmill, you know, where everything today is about instant gratification. You know, a lot of dating apps are set up to give you, you know, depending on. On where you are in the. In the dating pool, but to like, to give you a hit of instant grat. You're swiping right on a bunch of people, and it feels like you have all of this optionality, but then, you know, the next day you've swiped through a hundred people and nobody has responded back. And so you're like, kind of sitting there and you're like, well, hold on. And so, you know, I think in a world where. Where we do overemphasize instant pleasure and instant gratification, which can be a part of that cycle, right? It can be a part of that process where people are on that hedonic treadmill constantly trying to get sexual gratification, you know, physical gratification, intellectual gratification. Okay, so get clear on some of the wounds. Start to see how, you know, your nervous system is reacting to these insecure relationships and connections. What about for the couple or the person that's in a relationship and has that security? But it's kind of bordering on boredom or, you know, they are. They find themselves, like, not really having spontaneity. Like, what do you say to those people? In that type of relationship, how can, how can security be sexy? I guess, is what I'm trying to say.

Yeah, well, and you know, I've been thinking a bit about this and like, again, it's hard to quantify. Like, I think we're, we're in a way asking the question of like, what's the recipe for connection? Because it's just like this higher level of connection. Because security doesn't always mean connection. It's just like, oh, we're feeling pretty good, we're safe. But that, that kind of excitement factor, I think, is what we're talking about. And, and the word exploration always comes to my mind when I, when I think about connection. And then all like exploration combined with emotional, and especially an emotional experience that's shared between the two of you. And it, I think it takes some real intentionality just as getting from insecure and, you know, reacting based on trauma. It's going to take a lot of work to get to the place of security. Like, it's still going to take work to go from security to connected. And I think it's about intentionally having new exploration that creates emotional experience. And that could be spiritually. Like, you know, you're going to a new place in nature and connecting, you know, with nature, with God or like whatever it is, or it could be those. That's why vacations, I've oftentimes, I think, feel connecting because you're exploring something new. You're on the edge of your seat, you're, you're interested. You know, the, there's that, there's that exploration combined with an emotional experience that's shared, I think is, is if we were to kind of simplify it, that's where I would start at least. And that can happen in conversation too. Like, I tried to create this resource called 19 Conversations Closer, which was designed like, to do that. It's like, hey, here's all these specific conversations you probably never talk about. And some of them are super hard. But even in the hard stuff, like, even exploring into sadness can be connecting and in a way, like sexy on a deep emotional level, it's.

That makes total sense, you know, And I think my, my good friend and colleague Dewey Freeman always says that the foundation of attachment or relationship is being able to go through a hard time with somebody else in relationship and come out the other side. Okay. And, you know, sometimes that's not, quote unquote, super sexy, but it's what's required for a deeper kind of connection that maybe hasn't been present in your Life. And when we start to build that type of foundation, it's oftentimes the thing that many of us, you know, many people were maybe lacking in childhood or they've wanted in past relationships. And so it can feel foreign. And the funny thing about the brain is that it doesn't like things that are foreign. It likes things that are predictable. It likes patterns that we know. And so it'll choose the dysfunctional relationship over the functional one simply because it's a known quantity or pattern or behavior. So what do you want to add to that in terms of how we can sort of work, I guess, against the grain of our brain sometimes, which is maybe keeping us stuck in these dysfunctional relationships or patterns within our relationship.

Yeah. Meaning kind of keeping us stuck from moving into new spaces or exploration.

Yeah. From, like, preventing us from having a deeper conversation or emotional connection or, you know, sexual intimacy. Like, you know, again, because the brain is. It's well intended. It's trying to keep us safe, but it's usually withholding us from the type of intimacy or emotional connection or being known that we ultimately are wanting.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't know if I have the answer, but I guess things that came to my mind are. One is like, I think connecting with that potential experience, even just within your own thoughts, you know, asking the question, what if. What if I had that conversation? Where could that lead? And as you visualize that and imagine that in a way, letting yourself be aware of the emotional experience that you create, just solo. I mean, we kind of do similar work when it comes to exposure and response therapy for those who have ocd. You know, it's. Hey, before we put a. Like, let's say you're terrified of spiders before we bring a spider in a cage into the room and let you look at it, like, let's just imagine one vividly. And like, you know, through. Through that one, we're working through the emotion, but in this one, it's. We're really trying to get intentionally connected to that emotion, which can be. Which can be motivating. You know, again, if we kind of go back to the neuroscience of. Of dopamine, a vividly imagined experience can create that dopaminergic response that makes us want to pursue whatever we're visualizing. So I think increasing some of your motivation and visualizing it happen and also getting really connected to why you might want to do that, instead of just like, checking a box, like, okay, cool. Like, what's the impact on you, on your relationship? Like, what's the Potential. The, the whole what if category, I think, is something that a person can start to explore even on their own. If maybe they're a little bit, you know, nervous about, you know, breaking that mold and having that conversation or going to that new place or, or pushing themselves to face a fear, like maybe you can kind of warm up on your own a little bit.

I love that. I think those are some great pieces. We often, we oftentimes, you know, don't actually lean into. I'm curious about the role of responsibility and relational satisfaction. Talk to me a little bit about the importance of spontaneity for keeping connection alive, keeping love alive, you know, main sort of like relational maintenance. What role does spontaneity play?

I think it, it probably depends on the couple too. Like, some people are, are just great with doing the same thing over and over, and that's kind of what they want. You know, my wife is probably more that way than I am. I'm like, let's do something sick, like something new. I want to go explore. You know, I just, I'm ready for it and she is too. But yeah, I was just going to.

Say one of my non negotiables. When my wife and I got together, I had like a few non negotiables because we were living long distance, we were dating long distance. I was in Vancouver, she was in New York. And one of them, which was very out of her comfort zone, was at some point, when our kids are old enough, we're going to take a year and travel the entire world. And for her, she was like, that is way out of my comfort zone. I'm happy to do that. I'm happy to say yes to that. And she was like, I know I'm going to need a good amount of support in you planning some of that. And that's going to be confronting for me, but I'm willing to do that. And so I get exactly what you're saying. That's definitely the. More like, let's go do that over there. You know, like, let's go to that concert. Like, like, you know, go do that random thing. Yeah, so. Yeah, sorry, keep going, keep going.

No, no, but I, I guess with that, it's, it's being. Well, I feel like 90 plus percent of the work, you know, whatever the work is that we're doing as human beings to improve ourselves in our relationship, it just starts with that awareness, like if we become aware of the status of things like connectedness or, you know, that spark that's alive in the relationship and we don't just kind of let it. Sometimes I feel like a lot of people get in a position where they just kind of let that be, whatever it is, but it's. It's becoming aware of it, kind of taking the relationship temperature in a way, like, hey, you know, how. How hot are things? And. And then, you know, and I think it just comes down to being intentional. Like, there is a lot of responsibility there. And at the end of the day, it's hard. Like, yes, your partner needs to participate. Like, that's going to be helpful. But if you get so caught up in, oh, well, they never come up with ideas or this or that. Like, you're just going to get stuck as a victim forever. And it's like, okay, what are you going to do? Like, quit the relationship? Like, no, you're probably not going to do that. So let's figure out a way for you to be able to take ownership of the level of connection in your relationship and make it happen. Like, go do something.

Yeah. I feel like sometimes relationships are a balance of one person pushing a part of the relationship forward and traversing the other person's fears and insecurities that naturally come up as that part of the relationship is pressed forward. You know, whether it's deeper intimacy or spontaneity, or maybe it's just comfort and stability, you know, because I know for myself, like, having. Having comfort and stability wasn't innate in my past relationships, and it was something that I kind of bucked against. And so. So I think. I feel like that's just an interesting part of the dance, you know, where.

Yeah. How.

How would you. How would you say that individuals within a relationship can support a partner who is having fears or insecurities come up as the relationship is maturing and progressing or deepening?

Like fears or insecurities, specifically about, like, relational type things.

Yeah. Like fears and insecurities around, you know, sexual intimacy or emotional closeness or. But something specifically to do about the relationship. Because I think where a lot of couples.

Yeah.

Get into. Get into conflict is like, again, one person is trying to press something forward for the relationship to evolve or grow in some way, and the other person has their, you know, like one person has their foot on the gas relationally, and one person has their foot on the brake. And usually that person that has a foot on the brake, it's either that it's, you know, it's not a value for them or they're just genuinely afraid and insecure about that progress or that, you know, forward momentum. And I Think a lot of people are usually like, well, how do I support my partner in coming with me to therapy or in, you know, in coming with me to this event or exploring this workshop or, you know, going on this adventure to Peru that I've always wanted to go on? You know, like, how do we navigate those conversations?

There's moments where, like, for example, it's really dysfunctional for the relationship. Like, they're holding back in significant ways that truly could cripple, like, just the functionality of life. Like, you know, like, let's say you have a partner who's, you know, terrified to even, you know, go to the store together or, like, something. Right. That's not necessarily relational, but it could be relational too. Like, whatever. When there's a. Where there's a real dysfunction, I think there is a. There's a temptation to get caught into the, like, the. What you perceive as being really compassionate, which is more of, like, maybe the enabling front of things. Like, always going, yeah, okay, like, great. Like, we don't have to go there. We'll avoid these friends. We'll avoid these situations. We'll just like. And then all of a sudden, you're just trying to. You're just trying to play this game of, like, controlling the world around you in order to find safety, which is incredibly.

Taxing on a relationship, and it can build resentment. So that's one end of the spectrum. It's like, okay, I don't want to go there, but at the same time, I don't want to be a total jerk. And just like, well, you have to. And kind of drag them into whatever this experience is. And so I feel like the kind of. The middle point is a. Is that curious, challenging. And maybe challenging is almost even too strong of a word, but the curious exploration of what's behind that fear. You know, when I think about helping a client of mine to overcome some sort of barrier of action or, you know, moving towards something, I just want to get as close to that fear as I possibly can. Just like, wow, what is it like to feel that way? When does it come up? How do you feel it? What else do you notice when that's going on? What are the thoughts in your head? What are the meanings that you're making in that moment? What's the emotions that accompany those meanings? Oh, okay. Like, what resources have you drawn on in the past that help you overcome fears like that? Are those resources available? Like, there's so many more questions than there are solutions provided in a situation like this. And you might be tempted to want to, like, just give a bunch of solutions. But I feel like questions become the solutions because it. It just gives you a better. Better data on how to move forward in a situation like that. And then when it's time to move forward, I think something that's really helpful is moving forward based on some sort of shared value, like the I don't want to go to therapy, but. Or my partner doesn't want to go to therapy, but I do situation. A lot of the things that I feel like we can, you know, generally speaking, a shared value is, you know, we value closeness and connection and each other. And I value the feeling of being valued by my partner. And so I encourage people to really lock into that piece. Like, instead of just complaining like, you'll never go with me, or like, we're so messed up or like, whatever. Just like, what about the fact that you just care about them and you love them and that sometimes there's barriers that come between you and you hate that because you're my person and I love you? Like, that's a shared value that they can kind of attach to. So those are kind of the two pieces, the curiosity and then the shared values. I think marry up in situations like that to be really helpful.

Yeah, that's really good. It's really, really good. I mean, I. I agree with that wholeheartedly. I think the only thing that I would add in is, like, the. I think you gave the, like, here's the dues, and I'll just give the one don't. That I found to be. Yeah, super helpful, which is. I see a lot of people in relationships trying to leverage criticism and shame as a means of behavioral change. Yeah, it's like you. I. I was on Chris Williamson's show yesterday, Modern Wisdom, and we were talking about attachment a whole bunch. And. And I don't remember how it came up exactly what I was like. You know, you can't criticize your partner to more or better sexual. And that just doesn't work. But most of us try and deploy that strategy at some point because we're frustrated and we feel disappointed. And so, you know, the. The natural inclination in those moments is to criticize someone and say, like, you never emotionally connect with me or you don't. Like. Like you never check in about my day or like, how come you don't want to have more sex or.

Right.

You know, like, why don't you ever want to talk about money or take responsibility for it? And so we deploy this criticism that ends up creating more se. And space between us. So I would love for you to just, like, pull on that thread a little bit about criticism and how couples can navigate those waters, because I think it's such a common thing where criticism and shame comes in as a mechanism to try and create behavioral change or get our needs met.

First of all, from the very beginning, it's just kind of checking where you're at energetically in what you're doing. Like, criticism is much more combative in energy and in feeling, and it's not collaborative. And if I'm. I guess I'm drawing from the. From the wisdom or the doctrine of Chris Voss over here, FBI lead negotiator for a lot of years, and he talks about the difference between a collaborative interaction versus a combative one. And the second you step into combative, your negotiation around anything is over. They're pushing back. Nobody leans in to the combative space with any kind of sense of agreement, any kind of sense of safety. And so we know that, like, yeah, criticizing is not going to work, but. But what does collaboration actually look like? Might be the question that, you know, this comment that I'm making stirs up like, okay, Trevor, great idea, but how do I do that? And I think it comes down to the. The principle of shaming and criticism. We use that even on ourselves to motivate change. But the problem with it is that when we criticize, we actually miss the data that's going to help us create change.

So, for example, if you're trying to release some sort of bottleneck or some sort of problem in, like, a business process, you know, it's like, why aren't we making more sales? It's not just to go and yell at the sales guys and, oh, all of a sudden they're going to do better. It's to say, where does it stop? What's actually the problem? I make this analogy that there's a difference between, you know, well, imagine you're riding a bike and you ride through a bunch of nails and you don't know it. And then you ride through mud immediately after. Like that stick. Heavy, sticky, heavy mud. And you look down and you blame the mud for your flat tires. You're like, oh, stupid mud. That's like just criticizing your partner. You aren't. You aren't loving enough. You don't care about me. None of that's true. The mud didn't flatten your tires. They're not unloving. They. It's not that they don't care about you. When you do it to yourself. It sounds like I'm a freaking idiot. I'm the worst. I'm a moron. None of that's true either. And so you're trying to solve the problem with the wrong data at that point. It's not mud. If we get below the mud with curious compassion, and this is kind of what we talked about right before we started recording, the functionality of compassion is really just understanding accurate data. If I get below the mud, I'll find the nails. It's like maybe I'm not engaging sexually because I have this underlying fear of closeness based on things that have happened in the past between us. Or it's hard for me to engage when maybe we haven't had touch points throughout the week, and it's hard for me just to turn that on. Well, okay, now we've got something to work with. On the one hand, that's trauma, something that happened in the past. Okay, we can approach that. Some answers there, or, oh, you need more connection throughout the week. We can approach that there's some answers. There's an actual solutions when we get down to the nails of the issue. And so I think. I think that's what collaboration rather than combat looks like in a relational sense. It's that curious, compassionate, peeling back that mud to find. Find the real nails.

Yeah, such a good analogy too. And it's funny because we. We often deploy the strategies that we witnessed or experienced growing up. Right. And so it's very common that people and partners who deploy the mechanism of criticism in their adult relationships experience that or witnessed it when they were young. You know, they were on the receiving end of, you know, being heavily criticized as a means of trying to get them to be a good boy or a good girl or do their homework or eat their vegetables, you know, whatever hell else it is. And, And I get. I think the reason why I bring that up is that I've caught myself wanting to criticize as a parent, you know, and in moments of, you know, frustration and anger and. And like, I was like, oh, where did that come from? And I could hear myself hearing that as a kid, you know, hearing some version of that, you know, the big piece. And I don't think I've ever talked about this on the show, but the big piece that came up for me was, I don't remember what my son was doing. He was doing something and it was, like, ridiculous and, you know, irritating. And I was trying to get him to stop. And of course he wasn't listening. And I found myself. I had the thought and I Almost said and I didn't. But I had the thought of like what's wrong with you? You know, and it was so interesting to hear this like very shaming, very sort of hyper critical comment that wanted to come out of me. I was like whoa, like where did that come from? And then I realized that that was most of my experience growing up. You know, hearing that sometimes directly like what the hell's wrong with you? Why would you do that? Or hearing versions of that as a means to try and get me to behave. And it didn't work, you know, it didn't work for me. And it, you know, it hasn't worked for many people but you know, so it's almost like we have to kind of check. I say that because we as the individual who's criticizing or trying to use shame as a tactic to get behavioral change, we have to check ourselves and kind of see like where did we learn that? You know, are we doing that because we feel helpless? Are we doing that because that's what we experienced? Are we doing that because we want to have a sense of power or agency over the other person?

And you know, I think that culturally, I'll just say one last piece and I'm going to hand the mic back over you. But I think culturally I see this being so dominant right now. People using criticism online to try and behavior correct, people using shame online to try and behave your correct. And it's just, it's like, it's disgusting and it doesn't work. That's the crazy thing is that like it literally never works. And if it works for you individually, there will come a time where it'll not only be net negative but things will really deteriorate quickly, you know, and you will bottom out because you will start to do things out of this very negative place, you know. So yeah, thoughts, comments on that. I just want to hand it back.

Yeah, I was talking about this with somebody just the other day. I was going on a mountain bike ride with a friend and, and we were talking about how really there even in this space and it's kind of, it's kind of horrible and maybe I'm getting a little political here, but not really. I guess I'm just talking about the system. It's unfortunate because even from who we would need to be our leaders when it comes to lawmaking and things of that nature, we see the same patterns from the very, very top of it all. And there's no collaboration in an energy. There's no curiosity. It's just I'm gonna get in and beat up my opponent. And it's like, I don't want a guy like that trying to negotiate with, you know, some other country who's potentially gonna shoot us with a nuke or something like that. Like, I want somebody who knows how to collaboratively work with somebody rather than combatively. And that, that criticism, the demonizing somebody else in order to prove that you're the right fit or whatever. Like, we see it on all levels of society and it's, and it's really challenging. And I think as I talk about this, I, I guess I feel a sense of, of ownership and responsibility. Like, all right, I gotta start within my own home in, in making something different. Like, I'm not gonna demonize other people. I'm not gonna be heavy, critical. I'm going to try to move towards collaboration because, you know, society is built on the backs of, of families and that's really like the foundational piece of it. And if I can be one of those families, then than I want to be.

I, I agree that society is built in the backs of families. And it does seem like.

Families and family values and, and the, and the sort of like, virtues of families are being eroded in some ways, you know, and.

It'S a really alarming thing. You know, I see government and education systems stepping in and elbowing the parents out in a lot of ways. I see narratives from social movements that, you know, it's like, children don't belong to their parents, they belong to the community. And it's like, what in the f. Are you actually talking about of your, like, parents brought them into the world. They're responsible for them, they're legally responsible for them. Like, what are you talking about? And then, you know, and then I think on the other side, you have people that preach that families are, are the backbone and then live a very different way. Like, I see a lot of red pill guys that are like, families are the backbone, but then, you know, they can't hold down a relationship to save their damn lives. You know, they've got seven different women on the go and they, you know, and they don't have kids or they have five different kids with five different women. And you're like, well, you're just talking out of your ass. Like you're not even maintaining or upholding something. And I think the reason why that is is because building a family is hard. It is really hard. And it tests you and it strains you and it strains the relationship and the marriage and it strains the individual and it is A genuinely hard thing to do that causes some strife within people's life, financially, emotionally, psychologically, etc, so on that note, and I want to switch the conversation here in a minute to self compassion but make the case for why you had kids and built a family and maybe what that experience has been like for you.

A note that I hadn't been aware of too much until recently is.

And this wouldn't have been my leading argument and I don't know if it's my leading now, but it's one that's top of mind because I'm witnessing it happen.

My mother in law is amazing. She just like picks up people in the community and just like takes care of them like kind of randomly. And you would think it's like her full time job or she's getting paid for it, but she's not. And you know, there's, there's one of these individuals that she helps that's you know, an older woman who, who doesn't have any kids, she doesn't have anybody there anymore. And like as far as like the aging population and adults, we see this, especially in this area where I'm at right now in kind of the Southern California area is that we'll, you'll have a lot of aging adults who don't have children. They don't have other people to turn to. And when things start to slip as they will, such as memory or functionality, the only option is to become a ward of the state. Like there's nobody there to take care of you. It's, it's lonely, it's, it's really challenging because a lot of your friends are dying and a lot of things, and obviously like this also comes into like you don't want parental estrangement. You got to maintain those relationships with your kids so they'll be around. But you know, ideally you want to take good care of your family so that they can also take good care of you. Like those later years in life. I think you pay the price for not building a family. There's a lot of loneliness, a lot of isolation and a lot of just dysfunction in your life when you don't have anybody there to work with you or even just to manage your affairs and like help you find the right place to live and, and whatever because you're just going to get scooped up by social services. Like that's, that's not ideal. So that's one that I hadn't really ever thought about just from a functionality standpoint. And then there's just the deep fulfillment and Purpose, that's the biggest thing in the world to me. It's just nothing that I at least encounter in my life that's deeply meaningful and purposeful comes without struggle and strife.

I get freebies in life sometimes, and that's great, and those things are fun. But the things that drive real meaning and purpose, which is really the antidote to depression and anxiety, is to have a real deep sense of purpose and meaning. Those things come from serving others, from having a child, from being able to serve.

Has my life gotten much more busy since my son was born? Is it. Is it challenging? Yes. Has my purpose and fulfillment increased tremendously?

Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly with both of those. I mean, it's interesting. Like, my. I don't know if I told you this, but, like, my mom passed away about a month ago, and the final weeks of her life was her surrounded by her children and her husband. And, you know, if she. I think if she didn't have us, you know, she had some siblings that would have come to visit her once in a while, but for the most part, she would have been on her own. You know, like, one of her best friends was actually out of country and couldn't make it back. And so I was very present to the fact that in the final moments of her life, and she and I actually talked about this as, you know, one of the conversations that we had was, you know, what are some of the most meaningful moments in your life? And she said, having you. Having, you know, your brother and sister, and without question, you know, and that. That was. Those were like the highlights of her life. And then here she was in the final two weeks. I mean, we were there morning to night, every single day, bedside, holding her hand, helping her, and it really. I walked, you know, walked away. I mean, I'm still in the grieving process, but I, you know, I kind of came out of that and was like, man, I wish that type of ending for every human being on this planet, you know, and I wish that for myself to. At the fine. In the final weeks and moments of my life, to really be surrounded by people that I love and who love me. Like, what a gracious gift. And. And then, yeah. I mean, to have my son has just been the most meaningful, purposeful thing that I couldn't have quantified or. I mean, it's just so hard to even communicate to people the depth of meaning and purpose that can come from being a parent. Even though sometimes you want to pull your hair out. So. Yeah. But.

Yeah. Yeah.

So let's let's shift the gears. I want to go back to that conversation that you opened around the function of self compassion, because I think it's very common for men that we want to have more self compassion. We don't want to be so harsh. We don't want to be so self deprecative or angry towards ourself or self shaming. But I think there's a big fear that if we start to be compassionate that we're going to lose some type of drive. You know, I think that's a very common theme. So talk to me a little bit about, like, why is compassion, self compassion important? You know, what function does it serve within our psyche and how might it actually allow us to perform better than we did without it?

I think you're right in saying that there's some sort of misconception around shame, which is like the opposite of compassion, that shame is requisite for motivation and accountability. And just as we were talking about before, I actually think that it is. That it is in. It inhibits actual accountability because shame stops at the mud layer. It doesn't get to the truth. And so you're not accountable for anything. You're not accountable for the actual challenge, which is, you know, the nails in your tires, how did that get there and what's going on? And so I think compassion actually unlocks true accountability. And shame is this version of accountability that we've learned that, you know, I don't know, it just, it feels like justice or, you know, accountability, but it's, but it's really lacking in both. And so I think that for those, and for those men who maybe hear the word compassion as a bit more like feminine than they want to lean into, and it feels a little bit too, you know.

Emotionally feminine in, in its construction. Well, lean into the, the logistics of it here. And that's what we're doing is we're just spelling out like it's, it's the gateway to change. You can, you know, you can call it feminine, you can call it masking, call it whatever you want. It's just functional to be able to figure out what's actually going on for you. It's. It's led with, led with that sense of compassion. And I say compassion has to be there because for, you know, you can't just have the curiosity where it's like, okay, I'm curious about that stuff. Curiosity will get you so far. But real curiosity is seeing it within the context of being a human having empathy for the emotional side of things. And if Especially if you're seeing a behavior in yourself that you don't like. It's not behavioral, it's emotional. Like, everything we do roots back down into a lot of, a lot of emotion. And so I think, I think self compassion is just speeds up change in, in a great way.

So it can help us pursue our goals in a more meaningful way or help us to sort of drive forward. It can help us to end the shame spiral.

Yeah.

What is it? What does it look like? Like, talk to me about the tactical deployment of compassion. Like, what, how do we. Because I think I can hear some, the, you know, guys tuning into this or some of my audience, they're like, cool, what do I do? Like, how do I act? How do I be compassionate with myself instead of just crapping all over myself?

Yeah, yeah, that's great. Well, I think, you know, one, one concept that I've, I've loved to lean into is the difference between the question why. It's a one word question, but it can be asked in, well, I'll say two different ways. I'm sure there's a lot more. But there's the accusatory why, which is much more in line with shame. And that's where you go, why the hell am I such an idiot? Or why, man? And you're not actually asking a question. You're just calling yourself an idiot. You're just, you know, accusing yourself of being deficient. Or people might do it to, you know, their higher power. They might shake their fist at God and be like, why is this happening? You're not actually searching for an answer from, you know, your higher power. You're not searching for that, prompting, that understanding, the revelation. Whatever you're looking for, you could do it to your spouse. Like, why are you doing this? You're not actually asking for an answer. And so I think pausing and noticing when you ask the question why are you actually looking for an answer? Or are you just accusing? Or are you just expressing your frustration? Like, why am I this way? So there's the curious and compassionate why versus the accusatory why. That's one small shift you can ask is asking, huh, man? Why? Why would I respond this way? Like, I'd like to know what have I experienced? Like, what, what am I feeling right now? What's going on in my life that maybe leads me to this place? And if you can ask that question to the point where you can then validate yourself, you don't have to validate your behavior. Like, let's say you're like, Defaulting on a porn addiction, it's like, that's obviously not helpful. You don't want to keep doing that. But you can validate the reasons why you've got there. Man. I've, I've used this to escape my stress forever. I've never learned a better way. And my job all of a sudden just, you know, collapsed. Everything started going sideways and so I defaulted to an old behavior. Oh, that doesn't work quite well. I get why I do that. I understand that's the compassionate part. I validate that. So now let me see if I can fix that again. A solution becomes more clear. I need to figure out a better way of managing my stress.

Sounds good. Like it's, it's functional and it's. Yeah, it's, it's slower. You got to slow, slow down. It's way easy to call yourself an idiot and be done. It just, it doesn't work. You'll keep doing it forever. So like slow down to speed up the healing with the just layers and layers and layers of question until you can get to the point where you can validate oneself.

Yeah, like I like that approach of moving to being solutions oriented versus shame oriented, you know, and having an understanding of the behavior. Because I think one of the things that I struggled with when I was trying to deploy self compassion in my own life because I had a very abusive inner dialogue for a long time, like really verbally abusive inner dialogue. And what I've come to learn is that for a lot of guys, that's their experience, you know, their inner conversation is just freaking brutal and, and they talk to themselves in a way that they would never talk to any other human being in their life.

Anyone. Yeah.

And what I really struggled with was.

Letting myself have compassion towards myself. Felt like I was letting myself off the hook. You know, it felt like I was, I was like, I can't do that because I'm going to give myself a pass. And then that means that things are going to get even worse. And so that became the barrier or the block or the resistance for me to not actually be compassionate towards myself. Because I was like, well, I can't do that. So how, how does a man confront that resistance of if I let myself feel compassion towards myself, I'm going to fall off an edge and, and you know, like just let myself off the hook for everything.

Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think it comes back to kind of what you were just saying is having, having that solutions focused kind of capstone to the whole experience. It's not Just the compassion. It's the. Oh, I get it now. What? Oh, I understand now what it's like. It's just gathering information in order to then move forward in solving the problem that you might be facing. Another piece of this that you can deploy comes from acceptance and commitment therapy. Kind of exploring what is the underlying value that's connected to this behavior that I actually don't like that. Like the evidence that or where the fact that I'm, let's say, relapsing on my porn addiction, given all these other circumstances in my life is evidence that, you know, I really value my work and I value my employees and I want to provide like something good for them. And I'm really overwhelmed because some things are maybe falling apart. Maybe you lost a deal or lost some other employees or something's going on. Wow, I value that. And then once you have a value in place, you can move towards that with a lot of energy instead of moving towards, let's say, the addiction. It's okay. If I value my employees and my work, then I'm going to double down on, you know, finding recruiters to bring new people in or, you know, finding a way to optimize that process that is falling apart or bringing in other help or spending a bit more time focusing on that. Like you have some actions that can help you move towards that value. And it's kind of crazy. Behind almost every quote, unquote bad behavior, there's some sort of. There's probably some sort of thing that you value that's good that you can honor.

Yeah, I love that perspective because I think it's entirely true. Right? It's like the, like the saying, like there's gold in the shadow, you know, behind all the stuff that we're hiding or all of our dysfunction, like there's gold in there to be found. And I mean, I found that for myself with this self compassion piece. I had to create some level of detachment between behavior and personhood. You know, I had to create some level of separation between. Just because I did something wrong doesn't mean I'm an absolute piece of garbage, you know, it doesn't mean that I am wrong. And you know, I think that's the, that's the thing that actually is from. For me, that was one of the first steps of being compassionate towards myself was this constant re. Reaffirmation of just because I screwed up, just because I went back to porn, just because I went back to weed, just because I texted that girl and I had that behavior. It doesn't mean that there's something foundationally wrong with me. And that was a great first step of separating behavior and personhood. To say that behavior was, quote, unquote, bad or not what I wanted, but that doesn't mean that I am bad or not what I wanted and that I found to be super helpful as a. Like a starting block. Because without that, it was just. That behavior was bad, Ergo, I'm a piece of crap, you know, so.

Yeah, well, and I think. I think also even just the fact that there's discomfort around a behavior tells you something about who. If it's hard to define who we actually are, like, what does that even mean? But if I can get close to it, usually where my. If I feel resistance or discomfort towards something, then that's a good signal that that might not actually be who I am. Like, you know, I'm the guy who respond like that, longs to respond kindly to his wife, that longs to provide, you know, safe, meaningful experiences for his family, that wants to show up and work hard. Like, that's within me. Does it? And then when I go against those principles or ideas, there's discomfort. Oh, well, that's a pretty good system or signal that you're. You're disrupting the true system, the true you. If there's discomfort, then that's a good signal, says who you actually are doesn't really like doing that. So let's find a way to change it. And if you can see it from that, I think that helps me to separate it a bit. It's like, no, that's not even. That's not who I am. And the evidence is that I'm uncomfortable with it. I don't want that in my life.

That's a really interesting perspective. So you're saying just to kind of reflect that back. You're saying that looking at the fact that you don't want that behavior is a. Is a reinforcement or at least a kind of like, lead on who it is that you actually are and want to be.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Beautiful. That's such a great thing, I think, for people to start to take away, because I think for many people, it's like, well, I don't really know who I am. I don't really know what I want. And I mean, I hear that all the time, especially from a lot of young men who are just like, I don't know what to do with my life. Like, where do I start? And I feel like that's a great place to kind of start to dig into what would you say about finding a deeper sense of who you are in a world that is increasingly more seemingly chaotic? Because I think what a lot of guys that I see commenting on my YouTube videos and, you know, sharing my podcast and stuff like that is that they feel quite disrupted and maybe a little disoriented from the very, like, chaotic nature of our times and the Internet and how fast things are going. How does one begin to develop a sense of security within themselves that can navigate through the chaotic times that we find ourselves in? I know that's a very big question, but I'm curious to get your thoughts.

Part of me wants to lean back into kind of our values type conversation, and it's hard to identify what your values are because it's almost similar to identifying who you are. It's kind of a similar flavor. But I think as we explore what's deeply meaningful to us, and we may not know for sure what that is, the definition of what's meaningful to you might be really broad. It's very similar to, like, a career path. Let's say somebody knows that they. They want to help other people. Great. That's a good start. Like, that's very broad. That's very wide. Move towards that value in whatever way you have that's accessible to you is maybe what I would encourage people to do. It's like, okay, like, maybe you're volunteering. Maybe you're learning about how people around you, how their careers or how their life is equipped to serve other people. Like, they're doing it in a certain kind of way. And as you listen to that, as you imagine yourself doing it or you actually do it, just feel it out. And I think letting go of this idea that it all has to be permanent and see it all as an experiment, like, that's kind of fun to me. Like, that doesn't sound as stressful. That's. That's, you know, that's the difference between life's a bitch and life's a game mentality. Like, it's a game. Like, you can pivot, you can change, move towards that value of, you know, maybe you value family. Okay, so, you know, I. I think a lot of the. I guess I keep going back to career because a lot of the wandering and who am I Butts up with career. It's like, okay, explore careers that can help you be connected to your family. Like, maybe being a traveling consultant isn't one that's on the top of the list at the beginning. Okay, something else. Sure. And I. I think as you, as you continue to identify values and explore within them with the mindset of saying, this is not permanent. This is. This is an experimentation. You'll become more and more and more narrow in what it is that you want and who it is that you are. I had that journey myself. I never thought I would be where I am now. But eventually, like, kind of just happens as you lean into what's good right there, right then.

Yeah, I like that. Of. What was coming to mind as you were talking was like, I do a lot of photography, and it's almost like when you have the camera, you have the sort of, like, aperture, like, wide open, you know, or you have the lens wide open, right, and you see as much of the picture as you possibly can. And then you slowly start to focus in and focus in and focus in and focus in. And then finally, you know, you're looking at this massive mountain range to begin with, and you're like, what? You know, what photo do I want to take here? And then you slowly start to zoom in. You start to see into the trees, and then all of a sudden you discover there's, like a bear in there. And you're like, oh, there's the subject that I want to take a photo of. And that image, that imagery came to mind where it's like, yeah, you might have just that very broad picture at first of like, yeah, I want to help people. And you can start there as a thread that you start to follow, and it will start to narrow as you continue to take steps towards helping people and sorting that out. So I love that. Love that perspective.

I also believe that in the pursuit of whatever, you know, you. You kind of identify what you value in certain ways. You start to pursue it, and even if it's the wrong thing, quote, unquote wrong, like, even if it's. It becomes a dead end, that is definitely not time or energy or focus wasted. You know, you start talking about photography, and I think about. I used to do photo and video full time. That's like how I got through college. I don't do that anymore, but I pursued it very heavily. However, the things that I learned from doing that, even from just a functional, technical standpoint, like, I can shoot my own, you know, courses and podcasts and things and content, and it looks good and it's. It's great. It's benefiting me in the place where I may be a bit more narrower focused or to be able to understand, you know, the process of working with a customer. I still do that. Like, there's. There's nothing that's quote unquote wasted. You're going to take pieces from your entire experience, whatever it is, and you're going to hold on to the things that are meaningful and usually the pursuit of what's meaningful, the lessons that come from that become almost more valuable than the destination in itself.

Love that. I would love to just wrap up our conversation with some like, quick fire questions about relationships and, and some personal anecdotes because I think this will just help.

Number one, sharing your relationship on and, and sometimes family online.

Yeah.

Why. And what do you ever worry about?

Why do you do it? And, and what do you ever, like, what are you ever concerned about?

That's a good question. It is something that.

Quite frankly, I continue to wrestle with here and there.

Because the world is changing in certain ways and it's hard to know like, how much of that one ought to be doing from even just from a safety perspective. It's, it's really hard. There's some real consideration that goes into that. There's, there's something that happened early on when I wasn't necessarily meaning to be like terribly open about that, but people would just see little snippets from things like my Instagram story or whatnot. And I can't tell you how many messages I get to say I've never seen a healthy relationship. I don't know what that looks like. And I watch just your interactions and it fills me with hope. It helps me to know what it looks like. And I thank you like, so much for that. And I'm like, whoa. I did not realize that that was part of, part of what was going on there. I think painting that hopeful vision of the future is, and I guess modeling, and this sounds way too, I don't know, narcissistic in a way, but I guess modeling to the corner of the world that I have their attention, what I think, you know, a healthy family might look like and encouraging those family values to stay intact into the narrative of our, of our, of our society. Right. And there's also some consideration around things like safety. Like I'm pretty, pretty, pretty strict on where we, for example, shoot content. Like places that we're going to be every day, like outside of our home or outside of a place that we'll visit, you know, frequently could know that, hey, I can go find the Hanson family. There not going to be doing that because, you know, it's pretty easy to reverse image search and find where a person might be in this world. You see those guys on TikTok do it. And you're like, how did you figure that out? That's pretty scary.

I know that's. Isn't that a crazy thing?

Yeah, so. So I think. I think considering some of those safety elements is unfortunately part of it, but honestly, the modeling and the hope that it might provide others is a big part of that.

No, I appreciate that answer because it's something that my wife and I talk about a lot, and I've joked with her that one day when we're going through some type of conflict, that we should just go turn on the mics and do the conflict live.

Just get on the mics and be like, this is what it sounds like. This is how we actually move through a real conflict in our relationship. Because I do think that part of, you know, part of what the therapeutic industrial complex is missing online is actual modeling. And, you know, I think Dr. Nicole Lepera, the holistic psychologist, is doing some of this where there's kind of like, these role plays that. That she and her partners do. But I think that's still limited. You know, I think we need the, like, real kind of grit of how do functional people in relationships get through hard times.

Because I think that's really lacking. And I think it's something that most people didn't have modeled for them growing up. Right. Fighting or conflict was either super big and loud in their home and didn't have a resolution, or it was behind closed doors. So I appreciate that answer. Next question. Why do you and your wife go outside to kiss in the rain?

Oh, dude. Yeah, man. You know, it's. It's that. It's that. It's that emotional experience that we're talking about, like, exploration combined with a shared emotional experience. You know, my. I'm sitting there the other day working, and she texts me, it's raining so hard. We should go outside and kiss. And I'm like, great. If she wants to do that. That sounds like a fun thing to break up my day. It's just being able to respond to those bids. You know, it's like, even if I'm not that into it, which I think it's fun. Like, yeah, let's go outside. Like, you know, I like. I don't know. I'm. I like walking outside barefoot. There's something about that. It's raining. Like, there's just all these pieces that are enjoyable to me, and I'm going to. I'm going to say yes. And I think if you. If you don't say yes to some of those Things that maybe feel a little bit silly. Then you also kind of start to lose a bit of the novelty, that fun that comes from. From the relationship or just being able to kind of act like a child a little bit. We call it fifth grade fun, where we. Where we have, like, these unplanned, weird little adventures that, like, we stumble on something or we make a fun thing out of whatever we're doing. And it's like, I feel like I'm in fifth grade right now. And I don't know. I. I like that part of fifth grade. I don't want to give it up.

No, that's. That's awesome. My wife does this, like, dance. Dance time every day after work at 5pm and she'll, like, put on something to dance to. And she's been doing it, I mean, since I've known her. And it was one of the reasons why I fell in love with her. And, you know, oftentimes I'll. I'll. You know, I think in the beginning I was, like, kind of rejecting of it, and I was like, this. I'm not dancing with you. This is ridiculous. And, yeah, she was just so into it that I was like, all right, like, whatever.

Yeah.

And so it's turned into this ritual in our house now, where almost every single day, Monday to Friday, when we finish, she'll turn on some music, and, you know, her and my son will start to dance in the, you know, in the kitchen and living room. And then I'm involved a little bit, and then, you know, he immediately wants to go wrestle. And so it's. It's become this very ritualized thing. So it's. It's interesting. The last question is, what do you do to maintain spark and spontaneity in your marriage? And what do you recommend people do to do that in their own?

I think it's just taking time to be mindful of things that could create that. That spark. And it doesn't have to be huge, but it's just, what's. Something slightly, I think unexpected is always a great. Is always a great thing, right? Slightly unexpected. You don't have to be a genius or, like, create some crazy formula. It might just be, you know, put in a sticky note inside the shoes that, you know, that she's going to wear that day that, you know, tells her that you love her or something. Just like something small and silly, right? Or.

You know, even just a nice little text or sending your partner just like a. Like the kissing emoji. It's like, what does that Mean, I don't know, like, you're thinking of me and you drop something in my messages today. Like what? She has no idea. There's a lot of question marks around that and that might be kind of fun and intriguing. Right? And I think just, just allowing yourself to. I guess we keep coming back to what I. My recipe here is that that exploration and exploration might just look like exploring what it's like to send a random text in the day because you've never done that or you don't do it that often or leave that note or go to that one place. You know, we eat at places that look kind of scary and different all the time. We're like, what's the weirdest place like around us? And let's go see if it's good. And it's just so fun. So I think, I think some of that exploration is important.

Awesome, brother. Well, such a pleasure and a joy to have you on the show. I'm glad that we finally got to have this conversation. Where can people go to follow along on your journey, dig into your work and hear a little bit more about your message?

Honestly, the best place is probably through social media on, on Instagram primarily.

I kind of have a love hate relationship with Tick Tock. So don't follow me on TikTok, go find me on Instagram because then you can actually send me a message and say, what's up? I'm at the Art of Healing by Trevor. You can also go to my website, theartofhealingbytrevr.com and yeah, I always, you know, I respond to most all of my DMs. I don't, I don't offer advice, but I, you know, if you just want to say what's up? I heard you on the podcast. Like, I'm, I'm actually the guy that's in there saying what's up? Back to you. So, yeah, go and reach out.

Good stuff. Well, we'll have the links for that in the show notes. And as always, don't forget to subscribe. Man it forward. Share this podcast episode or this episode if you're watching us on YouTube with one person that you know would enjoy this conversation or could use it. And as always, until next week, this is Connor Beaton signing off.