Vienna Pharaon - The Ultimate Guide to Mastering Relationships

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Welcome, guys and gals, to the Man Talks podcast. I'm Connor Beaton, the host and founder of Man Talks. This podcast brings together the best thought leaders, teachers and extraordinary individuals to help teach and mentor you on how to be a top performer in life, love and business. Joining me today is a very special guest, and normally I say that I have a special guest, but today this person is very special to me personally. You'll find out why a little bit further on. But first, let me introduce. Let me introduce Vienna Ferran. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist and the founder of Mindful Marriage and Family Therapy in New York City. So if you've ever wanted to have a better relationship, if you've ever wanted to work through the quote unquote stuff of your past and become more aware of who you are at your core, and then this episode is definitely, definitely for you. So Vienna also runs indfulmft on Instagram, where she's got a few hundred thousand followers. And she regularly shares quotes and insights and thoughts about relationships. And she has some really great insights. She's got a very strong following. And that's because she gets relationships, she gets conflict. And that's one of the things that we are actually going to dive into today. We are going to dive into how to bridge the gap between conflict and connection. We're all also going to talk extensively about how your past upbringing often shapes the challenges that you face in relationships. Whether that's the type of person that you seem to attract, whether that's the type of arguments that you seem to get into in your relationship. And we're also going to bridge the gap a little bit between, you know, masculine feminine dynamics. And we're going to end with translating messages. And that one's a really important one. I was really blown away by this one because translating messages, you know those times where you're part partner says something or you say something to your partner and somehow they hear it completely differently, like they hear something completely different from what you were trying to communicate and you're like, how the heck did you hear that? How did I say that thing? And you took it like that. I don't understand how it got so lost in translation. And so Vienna and I are going to dive into how to translate some of those messages and some of the messages that we received in past relationships and from our past family system. So before I dive in, before I bring Vienna in, obviously this is a special episode for me because for those of you who don't know, Vienna is actually my fiance. And so I am extremely fortunate to be with such an incredible person that really understands and gets relationships, so I never get let off the hook. As you can imagine, dating a marriage and family therapist. Relationships is a very hot topic, always around our home. And I'm excited to have her on the podcast because I've been wanting to do this interview for quite a long time. And Vienna is just an absolute wealth of information about relationship dynamics and love and family systems and how we can build a really connected, intimate relationship. So on that note, before I bring it on, one last thing I do want to mention is that Vienna and I are actually co hosting and co facilitating a webinar all about relationships. So it'll be a three hour webinar. It'll go in depth into some of the things that we've talked about here and some of the things that we didn't get time to touch on. But that will be on January 13th in 2018. And yes, can you believe that the end of the year is coming up? It's kind of crazy. I can't believe how fast this year went. If you'd like to check that out, if you find this episode interesting or if you just want to learn more about relationships, we are going to take a little bit of a deep dive into masculine femin dynamics. How we can translate our partner, how we can build more intimacy with our partner, and how we can attract the right partner. If you're single, the link for that is going to be in the show notes. You can definitely check that out or you can just head on over to Eventbrite and you can search for Relationship Mastery. The event's going to be called Relationship Mastery with Vienna Ferran and Connor Beaton. So you can search either one of us through eventbrite.com and you'll find the event there. It'll also be in Vienna's Instagram bio and in my bio. Uh, so if you need anything, you can feel free to reach out to me@conrantalks.com if you're looking for the link. So without any further ado, I hope that you do join us because it's going to be incredible. Incredible webinar and conversation and we have limited room for. For people because it's a web webinar platform. But I hope that you join us. So that's that. And without any further ado, I would love to bring on my incredible, intelligent, lovely fiance, Vienna Faren.

All right, Ms. Vienna Faran, welcome.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah, I'm excited to have you on the Podcast. I think a lot of people have been looking forward to this.

Yeah, well, your assistant connected with my assistant, and we made it work.

Instead of coming home at night and being like, hey, can we do a podcast?

Yeah, exactly. Should we do this? We need to schedule a time. All right, so the burning question that I wanted to start off with is, what drew you to marriage and family therapy? Why marriage and family therapy?

Well, I think that the first piece that drew me in, obviously my parents divorce and witnessing it and wanting to understand, one, why relationships end and what can contribute to that. I think earlier on in my life, it was very much about making sure that I had the tools in place so that I wouldn't get divorced. I had the story that it was something that was terrible and incredibly painful. And that story was obviously from kind of living it out and watching it. Watching it happen. But my. My story is unique in some ways because my parents also became really good friends at a point in their recovery and journey. And so I got to see people go from a really negative space to a really positive space. And I was curious about that. But, yeah, from my unevolved space, I was very much like, I need to figure out what I have to do to make sure that this won't happen to me. And then as I got a little bit wiser, I think that the work is so fascinating to me in helping people understand what they need to learn about themselves and their partners in order to create and cultivate healthy, connective, intimate relationships with themselves and each other.

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because it sounds like a part of your life's work and your life's purpose has really come out of this space from not trauma in the childhood, but significant conflict in your childhood that created this curiosity. Do you find that that's. And this is not about relationships, but do you find that that's true for a lot of people that end up finding their sort of calling or purpose in life, that there's something in their childhood that piques their interest or creates this curiosity or burning desire, because I seem to have seen that in quite a few people. I know for myself, being on stage and being in front of people was always something that I loved doing, even as a kid. And that's just translated through into my adult years. And I think, because when I was a kid, it was like this piece that wasn't really accepted. Like, I loved doing it, but I wasn't really allowed to do it. I had to stick to sports. I got to stick to hockey and volleyball and all that kind of stuff. And so I never really got to explore that until I moved out of the house and then I could kind of dive into it. But have you, have you ever thought about that or seen that to be true for other people?

Well, I guess people don't like being told that they can't do something right. So whether you are celebrated for something and so there's an easy pathway to that career path or kind of life choice or there's a lot of resistance to it, I think both sides can really make a lot of sense. But I think you are talking about the latter, where there's conflict or constraints around something and we get so much messages around what we shouldn't be doing, what we can't be doing. And even though this is a human experience, I think so many people still on the other side of that are constantly trying to prove that story wrong. And so, yeah, I think I've not thought about it this way before, but I think it's true that maybe a lot of people do see an area in their lives in which there's conflict or constraints and want to be able to prove themselves and prove it to others and sort of come out victoriously on the other side. Like, certainly for me, when you think about the story that I just shared, there is a part of that story that wants to be victorious in my relationship to you.

Yeah, that's fair. I mean, it is interesting because you're talking about how you witnessed this divorce, you witnessed this breakup and sort of tearing apart of a family system, and that led to you being curious about how to prevent that within your own life.

Right.

And you know, I guess that brings me to this space of family systems because it sounds like you sort of cognitively or consciously on some level had the thought process of, I don't want this to happen to me. And I know that that story, that narrative that is definitely present with me because I grew up in a divorce family as well. And I've always had this like, oh, I don't want that to happen to me. Like, I don't want to have to go through divorce because I knew what it felt like. And so I'm curious as to how our family systems impact our present day relationships. If you can just sort of unpack that in a general way for our listeners.

Yeah. Before I do though, I just, I want to touch on the shift away from I don't want this to happen to me, which was my sort of unevolved narrative to what do I need to do to create healthy Connective, intimate relationships. And so it became less, and I imagine for you too, in some ways, like it became less about this fear based narrative and more about like what it is that I want to live and feel and be connected to, which to me feels like a much healthier way of living. And it's more about, you know, I talk about like the victory being in the process as opposed to the victory being in the outcome. Obviously, like people are not thrilled about divorce, but you know, divorce happens and we're not intending to get into relationships with that as the outcome. But if we want to preserve the relationship, then we ought to be really connected to the process and putting into the relationship what it needs to flourish and succeed and thrive instead of just holding the story of like, this can't happen to me and I'm not going to be okay if it does.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that's a really great point because I think I see a lot of people who grow up in these environments that are maybe hostile or abusive or very dysfunctional and that drive to. Or specifically with one parent. You know, they see a father who's overly angry and abusive or completely disconnected, or a mother who's controlling and manipulative. And the internal narrative that gets created out of that is, I will never be like that person or I will never have that relationship. And so it's almost like this negative or unhealthy drive to avoid something which inevitably comes up. I think that that's so interesting because my drive, that sort of internal narrative of I'll never fall into the trap that my parents fell into because my father left my mom sort of like out of the blue for another woman because he was unfaithful in the relationship. I had that drive of like, I will never do that. And it was so strong that of course I ended up doing exactly what I didn't want to do and who I didn't want to become. And so I love the reframe of this positive perspective of pursuing that which you really want rather than that which you want to avoid.

Yeah. Because when you try to fight the story so much without the tools, you wind up recreating the story. Right. Like, you don't want to become this person. And that's the part that's in your conscious mind is like, I don't want to be this person, I don't want to be this person. Yet you're not deepening and strengthening the tools and the understanding. Right. Like the self awareness that is required to be a part of that in order to actually keep yourself from like tapping into your shadow side. Right. So I think it's the, like, it's the combination of identifying what feels like a threat to us and then bringing in and like inviting in the self awareness that surrounds that threat. In order to start choosing. Well, you know, in order to start choosing, is it a reflection of my old story versus my new story or like the story that I want to be living? But I know that I digressed there and your question was about how family systems play into this. And I think we were probably just touching on it that like a lot of the work that I do, I mean really all of the work that I do, as a matter of fact, marriage and family therapist is understanding the systems that we're a part of. And when I say systems, I just think like every relationship is a system, every dynamic is a system. Our first system is of course, the family in which we grew up. And that can be blood, that can be neighbors, it can be anybody who was a primary player in our, in our lives. And so kind of exploring that and really paying attention to the messages that we received, whether implicit or explicit messages, and how those messages then turn into the belief systems that we carry and hold throughout our lives. Right. So when we are children, we are constantly observing and we are a part of this system. And so we're picking up on like, this is how we do things and this is what, you know, whether it's around gender, whether it's around communication, whether it's around love, tradition, religion, sex and intimacy, the list goes on and on. But we're constantly given messages that we pick up on and then store that turn into our belief systems in the way that we sort of expect people to be relationships to be communication to look like kind of et cetera, et cetera.

Was that your question?

Yeah.

No, I'm like, I'm not even sure if I'm answering this now.

No, you're definitely answering it. I mean, I think it's interesting because part of what you're talking about is around these messages that we were given as kids and those messages and stories and the system that we grew up in really dictates oftentimes the relationships that we end up getting into. Like our intimate relationships specifically, and even to a degree, the people that we surround ourselves with because it teaches us something. So if we constantly are finding ourselves in dysfunctional relationships, or if we're constantly finding ourselves in relationships that aren't working for us or aren't serving us, how do we start to Uncover because at some point we have to realize that it's not them as us.

Well, I don't know that I'd necessarily say that. I think it's both. So if we're just in our own lane and taking ownership for our part, then we just, we look at ourselves. But they're a part of that system too. And so they come with their story as well. And they are also choosing you. And maybe they are choosing a pattern in you as well. So I think it's important though to just acknowledge that it's not like, yes, within your own relationships, sure, you're the common denominator, but if you flip it, they are also the common denominator in their relationships. So it is important to have that distinction so we don't invite shame and in around like, oh shit, I'm doing all of this the wrong way. But yes, where you're leading is right. It's important to unpack like what part of the what, like what role we are recreating in these relationships. So I'm a believer. So as you know, like there's so much in our subconscious. I think Bruce Lipton's research shows that like 95 to 99% of everything we do think, say, believe right is pretty, is not in our conscious minds, which is a mind blowing statistic. And so to think about like how often we're actually operating in our conscious mind, you know, it's not much like we're just sort of running like it's a program that's running and it's taken care of most of our days and our relationship dynamics. So you know, we, I believe that subconsciously we seek partners with whom we can potentially get it quote unquote right. And so when I say right, I mean healing. And so our subconscious will be able to like see a sense of like familiarity in another person and choose to really be drawn into that space with them. What's scary about it is that person can be incredibly wounding or they can be incredibly healing. Right. So when we have these patterns that rise up, like it actually makes a lot of sense because subconsciously we're drawn towards a person who can really rewound us in ways that are so familiar to our system. Whether it's a sense of betrayal, a lack of trust, not feeling like a priority. Like an example would be growing up with an alcoholic mother who was like sometimes great and present and connective and other times really disconnected and withdrawn and maybe angry. And you don't. It doesn't need to be a mirrored image. But it's often that we find ourselves drawn to someone who creates a lot of inconsistency in our lives. Right. So don't always have to look for like alcoholic to alcoholic or like, like cheating to cheating. Right. It doesn't have to be that. It's more what it represents and the story around it. The other thing that I think people get caught up on too is like, especially in. I don't want to get too lost in a heteronormative message here, but oftentimes you hear the messaging that she's just marrying her father, which may be the case. But really what we see is that a parent or caretaker who was really the most wounding for the child is generally.

The wounds that the child will then or the adult child will then go after. Does this make sense? So we are confronted every time. We are really partner selecting. We're not consciously partner selecting most of the time. There's so much that's happening under the hood that is choosing a person for us. And so if we don't unpack our story, our wounding, where our hurt and pain are, where we have trauma and sadness and whatever it is that we carry around with us, then that will tend to take over and sort of run our lives and our relationships for us. So it's so important to be able to understand our hurt and acknowledge it and label it and connect to it and be able to share it with a trusted individual. Right. Someone who's earned the right to be able to hear that story and really bring it forward so that we know, okay, this person. Every relationship is a risk, right? Like every single one is a risk. We don't have a guarantee or a certainty at all, but we have a much better sense of feeling like safe and connected when we have a really clear understanding of ourselves and our story and what it is that we are needing in order to feel healed, in order to feel kind of heard and seen and acknowledged. So bringing that self awareness to family systems and our pain and trauma and whatever it is that's happened in our lives is incredibly valuable because it actually pulls back the blindness reminders in our conscious space a bit more.

Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting. I think that sometimes we in the dating scene, people would love to have that sort of like 30 day money back guarantee. Right. It's like if I could just try this out for 30 to 60 days and then no harm, no foul. Yeah. Back out of it without somebody being hurt. You know, maybe it's not a money back guarantee, but a feelings back Guarantee that you. That would kind of be nice. But anyway, I think you touched on something that's interesting about the subconscious sort of running the show. And I think what I see a lot in the world is that some people allow their choosing or not even allow. They don't even know what's happening. But a lot of people have their dysfunction, their past dysfunction, doing the choosing for them. Is that roughly what you're saying? And if so, how do we start to uncover that? Like, how do we start to not maybe prevent it, but be at least conscious of it so we can make a more conscious choice around a healthy relationship?

Yeah, it is what I'm saying. And I think we can either be choosing people who we know will be, who will be wounding in some ways, or we choose people and then we find ourselves subconsciously sabotaging or manipulating a dynamic so that it supports an old story that leaves us validated in a really negative way. So I think I started to touch on what we do is like, we begin to unpack our story and our. And our role within our family system. The messages that we received, the pain, the hurt, the wounds that we kind of took away from our interactions and our experiences because we, like, in order to move through this, you have to be vulnerable and you have to label and acknowledge where it is. You've been. You've been hurt in the past. If you don't bring that forward, it's going to run the show for you. It just will, you know. So, like, this is one of those things, like, write this down and like, start doing this because otherwise you're going to have some trouble. Right? It's like you have to begin to acknowledge where you've been hurt before. Because if you leave that underneath the hood, like, when you feel betrayed and you feel let down and you feel like hurt in your relationships present day, then you're not gonna know what is actually going on inside of you that's creating so much anxiety, panic, distress. It's gonna feel so overwhelming and flooding that you either become super anxious or you become totally shut down. But you certainly don't know how to put the right words to what it is that you're feeling. You don't know how to translate your pain into something that is connective for the person across from you. And that's one of the most healing things that we can do, is kind of pause in that space and acknowledge the hurt and the pain that we are experiencing, Connect it to something that feels familiar to us, and then share it with someone who's willing to be a listening ear and loves us and wants to show up in that space and sort of make it right, make it connective.

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because I think, like, part of what I hear in what you're saying is that there is an opportunity for us to not only find people who are willing to almost like, be there for us when our dysfunction comes up and our old wounding and our old messaging comes up, but who have also done the work to be able to identify their own. Is that. Is that like, incredibly. It sounds like it's an incredibly important piece.

100%. I mean, I think that you want a partner who is willing to stand shoulder to shoulder with you, who, you know, you're never a finished product. You're never done healing. Like, you don't need perfection in order to be in a relationship. You just need to be open and aware. I really believe self awareness and relational awareness are like the key components to healthy connective relationships. I can throw out a ton of other things, be generous, be. Show gratitude, be, you know, all of these things, but at the end of the day, like self awareness and relational awareness generally include all of those things anyway. And so that's the muscle that we need to strengthen on a daily basis is like deepening our understanding of ourselves and each other.

Yeah, no, that's. I mean, it's really interesting because I was like, when we started the podcast, I was like, oh, let's just start broadcasting and then kind of go in deeper. And we sort of just seem to do a deep dive into some of this. But I think that these are like, Is this where people should start? Are these. Because I think that people oftentimes don't think about relationships until they're in a relationship. And so the sort of the pre work or the prerequisites of entering in a healthy relationship often aren't done until people are actually, like, in it. So what's some of the pre work? Let's start there. What's some of the pre work that people can do, let's say, before entering a relationship, to at least have a chance in this age where we have so much choice of finding a healthy partner and being a healthy partner?

I mean, a lot of what brings people to that space is not being in the relationship. It's the ending of the relationship. Right. So like, you have a relationship, it goes south, and then that's when people are seeking information and understanding. Right. So I think we have a big part of our culture that is really fascinated by kind of Self reflection, self awareness, self discovery. There's people who read tons of books, do workshops, take online courses, who want to strengthen and understand themselves. I think it is absolutely a great place to start doing reading, taking courses, of course. I think going to therapy is a beautiful space to start. But beyond that, it's not just about being a consumer of information. At a certain point, you have to start to apply. Apply it to your life and to your relationships. And it's really where I think people struggle the most. Like, we're quite good at, like, awareness and reflection. Like, I know a lot of people who can tell me, like, why they do what they do, why they choose who they choose, and yet they still can't stop themselves and choose differently. Right? Yeah.

I mean, it's almost. It's almost kind of like some people, and I've seen this before, where people will be able to identify the dysfunction in their relationship, but. And almost like, know what they need to do.

Right.

So how do we bridge the gap between this, the, like, the conscious knowing and the actual implementation to take action towards that?

Yeah, I mean, my favorite word is pause. Honestly, like, I. This is work that is hard to do on your own at first. I mean, I think some people can, but to have a professional guiding you through this is very helpful. But pausing is really, really valuable to me and the work that I do with my clients. Because once people understand what their old story is. Right. So we're going off of the assumption that people have sort of unpacked their past, have unpacked their family systems, have understood the role that they kept within to, like, keep their family system kind of functioning. So going off of that assumption, we figure out what they want their old story to be versus what their old story is versus what their new story should look like. And so when they can start to say, I want to choose people who prioritize my time, let's say, right? So here in New York City, there's so many people who report that kind of. In the dating world and the dating scene, so many people just don't prioritize another person's time, Right. They cancel last minute. Maybe they don't show up for a date, they don't respond in a text message for three days at a time, whatever it is. And so if their news story is, I set this boundary around this. I want to feel prioritized. Then when they go back out into their real life and they start experiencing these things, they pause in that space and they say, is what I'm about to do or Say a reflection of my old story or my new story. And so maybe the person cancels last minute and you know, a couple days later they say, hey, I would love, like, let's go grab dinner. And maybe they've done this a few times around now. If it's your new story, you may say, no, I'm good. Like, it was lovely meeting you that first time, but I just have to decline the state because when you say yes to that space, you know, sort of over and over and over again, it sense makes, it may mean. And this is not like a, like a one model fits all. Like that person could be a phenomenal human being and they may have needed to cancel last minute for very good reason. So disclaimer there. All the listeners are like, screw this guy. I'm not going to respond now. My point is just like when I have that boundary, how do I listen to what I'm feeling and my intuition? And if I say no, is that actually honoring your new story or is saying yes honoring your new story and really getting used to that space of like checking yourself, pausing and filling that gap with something that does reflect the healthy, connective life and relationship that you're trying to live?

Yeah. Awesome. I love that. And I think, you know, you just said the B word and I want to talk about that. Boundaries, Boundaries.

It's like, what's the B word?

Yeah, you're like, what? Wait, what did I do? Just saying. Boundaries and agreements seem to be two huge things within healthy functional relationships. And I guess where I want to start is do you feel like men and women experience different challenges in creating healthy boundaries?

Hmm, that's a good question. Do I think men and women experience different challenges in creating. Yeah, absolutely. So I think because of, generally speaking, we have different messages that are internalized, that those messages impact the boundaries that we set. So a woman might set a boundary with herself around like, do not be too needy, right? Because that's been a message that we've been given for ages. And so setting that boundary around having a need, right? So I take real serious issue with emotional needs being being seen as neediness, right? So like neediness is not the same as having a need, but one. The example that I'm giving is like, if the message internalizes that I can't be needy because that's a turn off to a man, then that sets this like actual trap for you, right? It's actually just like a border around yourself because you, you withhold what it is that you actually need to ask for or what you're curious about even just like, hey, what time are we meeting tonight? But fearing that that's going to be seen as neediness. And so instead of asking, because, my gosh, that's a really reasonable question to ask, we withhold that. So we've really set this wall up around ourselves that is based off of a story that we have around the. These messages that we've received. As an example. I don't know, what do you think is one for men?

Yeah, I mean, I think a big one for guys is. It's not really so much around neediness. I think you're right. You hit the nail on the head there. For women, I mean, there's plenty more.

I'm just giving you one message that we've received.

No, I think that that's a good one though, because I've heard that come up again and again for women when they are often struggling to be in relationship or have a healthy relationship. And it's not wanting to be too needy or having the narrative of like, I don't need anyone.

Yeah.

And then attracting. Just that, you know, not being able to have or maintain a relationship because their partner doesn't feel needed in. In their. In the relationship because they, they have to. They feel like they have to be in a relationship in such a way that they have no needs, you know, so they've swung the pendulum in the opposite direction, I think, for men and boundaries. I think a lot of times what I see a lot of guys struggling with is it's more about self boundaries. And so, you know, we've talked about nice guys a lot on this podcast, and I think that there's two sides of the spectrum. One, I think that there's guys, a lot of guys who really struggle to set any form of boundaries in their life. And these are the nice guys who are seeking validation, who just want so badly to please the person that they're with that they collapse on their boundaries constantly. And then on the other end of the spectrum are the guys who will not move at all in their boundaries. And in fact, they oftentimes will try and break down other people's boundaries that they're in relationship with, almost as like a power play, you know. And so it's like a form of control and manipulation from their part to try and feel like, oh, I can break down your boundaries. And so I've sort of like claimed the power in the relationship. But in terms of like messaging or messages that some men have experienced or received, I think the big one, the big one Especially for the. Especially for the nice guys is the boundary of just being able to say what they need very specifically and very clearly, because they've been taught from a very young age that they need to please the people around them. And so they struggle to sort of set any form of boundaries because there's a constant seeking of validation, and that validation collapses in on their boundaries.

What is it? Pleasing others in what way? Because I would argue that women have been given that message quite a bit, that we are the caretakers and the nurturers, and we are here to please others. So I'm just curious what the pleasing for men is.

Yeah. So a lot of the nice guys. I had Dr. Glover on, who wrote the book no More Mr. Nice Guy, and he talks about how so many men in our modern culture have been raised predominantly by women with no real male role models in their life. And so those same narratives.

That have been taught to women were passed on to them. And so there's a lot of these not effeminate guys, but there's a lot of these guys who have those actually, like, those same narratives, those same messages that women have received around. Not around seeking validation, but around not having needs and not being too needy, because that is. That's also seen as being feminine.

Right, Right. I think, just to clarify, obviously, like, caring for others is a really beautiful thing. It's just. It can't happen at the expense of ourselves. And I think that's where the boundary conversation comes in, is like, we can give to others. We can put others first. We can, you know, choose something that's going to please another because we really want to please them. And all of that is healthy and okay, but except when it comes at the expense of ourselves and the abandonment of ourselves. And that's really where that boundary piece is. Like, there are boundaries that. Negative boundaries that keep us stuck, and then really healthy, positive boundaries that filter people out of our lives who are not willing to play on the same field as us. And knowing the difference is really important. There are people who earn the right for us to at times kind of push ourselves beyond our boundaries. For example, like, I may be incredibly tired and exhausted, but if I have a best friend who has a birthday party that night, I'm gonna abandon the fact that I probably do need to go to bed early, but because this person has earned the right for me to sort of like, abandon that. This is kind of funky language, but, like, I do it anyway, Right? But it's knowing the difference between the people who have earned that right. Versus those who have not. And I think the people who have earned that right are really a select few. Like, that's a handful of people in your life who you're willing to sort of like, bend over backwards. And I don't mean this in the sense of like, you know, you don't give to, like, so rigid. Like, I hope people aren't hearing this as this, like, very rigid and structured space, but just knowing the difference between a healthy and unhealthy boundary and what's serves us positively and in a connective way versus allowing things that take us further away from ourselves. Because if you let people trample through your boundaries over and over and over again, like, you are further and further and further away from the relationship and the life that you want to be living and leading. So you have to be very careful about where you set those boundaries and who you let kind of poke at them versus who you, like, swat away immediately.

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because it sounds like what you're talking about is almost like stretching boundaries. Not necessarily breaking or use the word abandoning, but I think it sounds like what you're describing is really stretching boundaries for the right people, not for everybody, but really being able to start to identify those people who, like you said, have earned it. Yeah, that's really interesting. I think just to close the loop on the men's question around breaking boundaries, I think it has to do with being an asshole. Don't be an asshole. You know, like, we hear that message a lot. And if I could just summarize what I was trying to say before, it's like, don't be an asshole. That's our big one. And so as soon as that starts to come up, I think we sort of feel this pressure to collapse in our boundaries.

But because men don't want to disappoint and they. They don't know how to put words to it, sometimes they become the asshole.

Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So let's move into being in relationship now. We took a little bit of a deep dive into the sort of, like, prerequisites and precursors to dating and relationships. Let's talk about actual relationships.

Let's.

Let's talk a little bit around. I mean, before. Before we dive in to the deep end of the pool. I would love to get your professional opinion around online dating and how technology is impacting the way that people really get into relationship, because that's so different from having to go approach somebody. So how is that impacting or how. Have you seen that impacting people getting into relationship. And how is that impacting people's ability to stay in relationship? Because it seems like more than ever before, it's so easy to be unfaithful in relationship. And there's so much temptation that's out there when you can just download an app and start meeting people.

Yeah, I mean, I think that the online world is an example of the both. And there are both really beautiful relationships that can come from an online source. And it can also be something that totally desensitizes us from, like, the experience of meeting people and deepening relationships with them. You know, I think that. So I will put that aside that I know many people who have found their partners through an online dating site. And so it works, you know, it's. Or it's worked for many people.

Yeah, I think it's like 30. 30%?

30%.

Is it that high?

Wow, that's incredible.

Meet online now.

Yeah, I mean, that's a great number. And it shows the value that it can hold. Right. Is that these are people that we may not have ever met otherwise in our lives. And it's not just online dating sites. It can be through social media, too, where people meet from afar. And so you have all of these opportunities and really now the ability to maintain some type of connection with a person who's so far away. I mean, that was us. Right. For a long time. And so there's so much value to it. I think the topic, though, of course, is what are the kind of bad, negative parts of this? And I think that where it can go wrong is that it really does desensitize the experience when you know that you have an endless supply of people at the swipe of your fingertips. And what I hear many people say is that they just believe that there's someone better if I just swipe a little bit further. And that's a really, really, really bad story to start accepting into your life. Like, there's very little space now where you meet someone and then you take the time to get to know them and, like, build a curiosity around who they are. Because generally a lot of times in that space is where feelings deepen and strengthen. Now it's like if you don't look a certain way, like, I'm swiping past you, or if you don't say something witty, I'm swiping past you. So there's like a few things that stand out. Right. Like what you look like and then sort of like the language that you use in your, like, mini little bio. I Don't know how many.

How many? Like, Summarize yourself in 140 characters.

Yeah. Like, how many characters? Like a Twitter, but. Right. But, like, people obsess over. What do I put here? How do I make sure that I sound intellectual, but I'm also witty and I'm sexy and I.

There's people that get paid to help build other people's profiles.

Yeah, I believe that. And I'm sure that that is a career. You know, anybody without a job you now have.

Yeah, there you go. You can go help people build their. Their Tinder profile.

Yeah. But I think it's also like what I remember reading in Esther's book, how, like, now you can actually be at home with your partner and cheating on the same sofa as them. Right. Like, you can be on your device swiping through while your partner is, like, laying on you while you're watching television. You know, like, cheating and infidelity has shifted in so many ways. Like, you don't actually need to leave your apartment to be having an affair. And so, you know, there's a lot of lanes that we can go through with this. Like, you know, the ability to, like, cheat by using sites or the way that dating has shifted by using this. But I think where we go wrong is kind of flooding ourselves with dates and not dating with intention. Taking seven dates a week, it's too much. And I don't say that to shame anybody who's doing it. It's just, you can never actually be fully connected and present with another person when you know that the next day there's someone else and the next day there's someone else. Like, absolutely. Go out and date. But don't flood yourself in that space, because if you're not present, you won't ever be connected. Sometimes people go on three dates in one night. You're never present with anybody. Right. Like, I gotta end this first date so I can get to the next one. Maybe you're present with the last. But, you know, I would imagine probably not. So there's a lack of presence, a lack of desire to actually connect because we have this story that there's another person, so many other people, I don't actually have to take the time to get to know you because I'll just go home and I'll swipe some. More and more connections will pop up. So it really works against. For some people, it works against pausing in that space and taking it seriously and getting to know a person on a deeper level and seeing them again. I mean, the ghosting Epidemic is like, I will get fired up about that. Like, we just forget that people are human on the other side of these devices, you know, it's like, there's like this digital. It's just a. It's a photo. You forget that people have feelings, that if you don't, like, return a text ever, you just go on a date, you tell that person that you had a great time, that you can't wait to see them, and then you never respond to them again. There's a lack of human decency, period. Like, there's no other way around it, and.

It'S not right. You don't have to like everyone, not everyone is for you. You're not for everyone. That's totally fine. But sending a message that allows another person to feel respected on a human level, that's a pretty good thing to lean into. So I think we have so many areas in the dating world where. The online dating world, where there's an opportunity to not be your best self. And when you can go into the dating world with the intention of, I'm going to just be my best self in this space, then I think you might have success. But if you go into that space without intention, without being deliberate, you fall down. You become less of you. You are distracted. You are. Yeah, you're distracted. You're not present, you're not connected. You don't care. You are looking for the next one. Maybe you go to the bathroom and you start swiping. I mean, this is what is happening, right? So if you are dating in the online world, I would recommend setting intentions for yourself. Why am I going on this date? You don't have to be looking for, like, a significant other right off the bat. Like, if you want to go because you want to have fun, great. Have fun. But, like, set that intention and know what that looks like. Be respectful. Be. Have fun. But do it as your best self. Right. Don't do it as your worst self. Don't be disrespectful to others.

Don't forget that they are human and have feelings and should be treated that way. So that's my rant.

Yeah, it's funny. You're like, don't get me started.

Don't get me started. But I'll start myself.

I'm just gonna keep going for you. I mean, it is interesting because it just creates this sort of, like, frenzy from a mental standpoint. Yeah, I mean, I won't. Yeah, I won't get into it because I want to dive into conflict in relationships and just Start to talk about. Well, first let's talk about some of the foundational pieces of what makes a healthy, connected relationship, first and foremost. And then secondly, what are some of the common conflicts that you see within relationship? What are some of the common breakdowns that you see most couples struggling with?

Okay, so first question. Definitely back to self awareness and relational awareness. But since you are moving towards conflict, I think that conflict is one of the greatest gateways to connectivity and intimacy. And that's really confusing for people because generally speaking, the story that people hold around conflict is that it's something that they want to avoid. And that's because the greater story is that conflict is bad, conflict is scary. Conflict leads to divorce or abandonment, it leads to yelling, it leads to brushing things under the rug and never having conversation around it. So generally we tend to have experiences of conflict that are ones in which we want to avoid. So my mission is to shift that story to invite us into a space of, of beginning to believe that conflict can be very connective and can create a very deep sense of intimacy with the person on the other side. So conflict for me is just information. When we're in conflict with ourselves or another person, it means that there's really important information for us to understand. I always say, like, when we're getting along really well, like, that's great and we should be. Especially if you really like the person. Right? Like, but getting along well, that's, that's easy. There's not a whole lot of information that you are gathering from that space. You're like, oh, we like the same things or we enjoy this music or these types of shows. It's like, okay, that's pretty simple. Conflict is where you can gain some of the deepest information about yourself and your partner or a friend or a family member that you might ever. And so I like to see conflict as not just important, but really necessary in relationships. Do you have a follow up question? Yes, absolutely.

I mean, I think that that's great. I love that framing of conflict and I love that perspective of conflict because I think a lot of people I know for myself, you know, when I was younger, I never wanted to rock the boat in a relationship. And I think for a lot of people it's like, I don't want to.

Rock the boat or it's a nice guy thing, right?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so, like, you know, I think a lot of us, like you said, avoid conflict. But when conflict does arise, even with having this mindset, how do we, in a healthy way, in a respectful way, in our relationship actually start to address that conflict and have it be connective versus disconnective.

It certainly takes self awareness and relational awareness to be able to pause, right? We go back to that word, to pause in that space and ask ourselves, okay, what's actually going on for me right now? You know, I am reacting with whatever anger or aggression or something, or closed off ness, you know, maybe we shut down. This is how I am reacting. But what am I actually feeling, right? Because before we are angry or before we're closed off, we're hurt in some way. And so when we can start to label the hurt again, whether it's betrayal, embarrassment, abandonment, whatever it is, when we can start to label that, that becomes less of a. It becomes more palatable to the other person, right? So when we are just angry or shut down, generally that ignites something in another, right? So when we get angry, the other person can meet us either with defensiveness or anger. Also, when we get closed off, it oftentimes is met with someone pursuing and being like, what are you doing? Why aren't you talking to me? Like, open up. It can sometimes be met with someone closing down, but I do think we wind up in this kind of pursuer distance or dance. And so when we close those parts up, regardless of whatever lane we take, conflict turns into something negative and it supports that old story. Now if we're supporting a new story of like, okay, well, I don't actually know if I believe this, but I listened to this Man Talks podcast and someone said that conflict can be connective. I'm gonna like, go along with that story and give it a shot. Like, if that's the new story, I would love for that to be your new story. Then you might say, okay, hold on. What am I feeling right now? What's the actual feeling and the impact that whatever this situation is had on me and let me label it and then let me bring it forward to my partner and say, okay, I'm feeling really overwhelmed and this is really scary for me to do. But when you did this, right, the impact that it had on me is that it left me feeling betrayed. And the hope is that you also have a self aware, relational aware partner who can hear that and respond to that in a way that says, okay, yeah, I get that. Like, can you help me understand more around this and in that space there's an opportunity to like, pull into your family system, to pull into past relational experiences where you've felt betrayed before and there's information that comes from forward that's so important for your partner to understand, because if you have a loving partner, they do not want to hurt you that way. That's the last thing they want to do. They do not want to feel like a failure. I think men feel this way often. And so when we open this conflict up into a learning opportunity to gather more information about the story that our partner has lived out, has actually experienced in their lives, you. You then create compassion and understanding for the other person who then is able to take that compassion and understanding and fuel the part of them that wants to love you in a way that is safe and secure. Does that make sense?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's interesting because.

You mentioned the pause before. Right. And I think it's Viktor Frankl. I can't remember what the exact quote is, but somewhere between stimulus and response.

Space, and in that space is like the choice to your freedom or something like that.

But, you know, I really like this idea because. And I like how you framed it because I think in a lot of ways it is challenging when there is conflict, because what I've noticed for a lot of people, for a lot of couples, and, you know, just through friends and men that I've worked with and even in my past, you know, when conflict arises.

The defensiveness and the attack, sort of like modus operandum that will come up, is often to launch into, you did this, and it made me feel this way. And it sounds like the pause that you're talking about creates the space for you to choose something different. So rather than saying, you said this and it made me feel this way, like giving you all the power, there's almost like this pause to choose your response in that space. You're not coming from a space of defensiveness or on the attack, but you're able to. To say, you said this and this is what I experienced, and to actually choose your next steps properly.

Yeah. In Relationships 101, we talked about Situation XYZ. In Situation X, when you did Y, I felt Z. And it's a good framework and a good takeaway to just think about that. Like, okay, in this situation, when you did that, this is how I felt. It is not intrusive for the other person. It doesn't put them on the defensive. Generally speaking, if we're, if we're working with a very defensive person, that may not be the case. But, you know, we try to do things in a way that's not going to set the other person off in a way that keeps them from connecting with us. So being able to Connect to how we're feeling is so important. What I'm guilty of and what you challenged in me was the like, how would you feel if I did? Da da da, da, duh. And you're like, I don't. I don't care how I. What? Just tell me how you feel. Like, let's not play this game. Like, oh, right, okay. Yeah, this is how I feel. And so that was my form of avoidance. And I think for many of us, when we are confronted with conflict, we find we try to find a way to avoid it. And we do that by getting angry or nasty or mean or. Which is funny because. Ironic because it fuels conflict more. But we do that to avoid actually having to tell someone why we're hurt. Right. So, like, conflict is generally met with avoidance because we are trying to protect ourselves from being vulnerable and having to share how it is we're hurt. Right. There's nothing worse than having conflict and then having vulnerability rejected. Right. So oftentimes the avoidance is a protective form of not having to have our vulnerability exposed. And it doesn't matter. You have to do it anyway if you're going to turn conflict into connection. But people, please know that you can't do this with everyone. Not everyone is safe enough. Like, this is not something to do if you're in an abusive relationship. There are people who are extreme manipulators and narcissists. And, you know, when you are working with someone like that, this is not the work to do with them because that is where your vulnerability gets trampled all over. So I just wanted to put that asterisk in there.

Yeah, no, I think that's an important asterisk. And I'm curious how you see. You know, we've talked about boundaries, which are extremely important in relationship, and now we've talked about conflict a little bit. How does anger play into creating healthy boundaries, and how does anger play into conflict? Because I think that one of the things that oftentimes I see people struggle with in relationship is in a healthy way, in a functional way, expressing their anger. I think that a lot of women are shut down from anger because of stereotypes around what it means to be.

Don't be hysterical.

Yeah. Don't hit like, you know, you're so crazy. Yeah, exactly.

You're crazy.

You're a bitch. Like those. Those things come up.

Be ladylike, Right?

Yeah. And then. And then for men, that's like.

It's the emotion that you're allowed to have.

That's.

Yeah, that's the emotion that's like, associated with masculinity. And so that gets expressed, right?

Yeah.

So how do we, I guess I want to say, use anger as almost like a bridge, or can it be a bridge?

Totally. I mean, I think that that's the same thing as what I was saying before is like, conflict isn't information. Anger is information. I just did a episode with Vice on this, and that's what I said. Anger is information. Before we are angry, we are hurt. Doesn't matter that you go from zero to a hundred so quickly in the snap of a finger before you are angry, you are hurt. And so when you can respect the pause again, you can translate anger into an experience of an impact that something has had on you. And when you can translate that, then you can communicate that to someone else in a way that it is more easily received. Now, I'm a big believer that it's not just about pausing and, like, calming oneself down and, like, you know, translating your anger into this emotional space. Like, sometimes we need to rage a little bit, and there is a need for a physical release to happen. And so I think it's an intersection of both being able to translate anger into your hurt and also releasing your anger in a physical experience, expression, not towards another person, but by going boxing, by walking on the beach and, like, screaming into the waves. And, like, there's many things that we can do that really release this energy that's, like, built up in our bodies that needs to be moved out because otherwise, physiologically speaking. Right. We're just gonna have so much stress and emotion holding us captive. And so releasing that is super powerful, both emotionally and physically. Physically, yeah.

Yeah. I think that's why things like Kundalini yoga and I mean, Tarantumi's classes, or even boxing or you see, you know, you see the guys at the gym that are, like, weightlifting, they're like, you know, like, a lot of that is just this physical expression of letting out, you know, some frustration and anger.

But see, that's the issue, though, for women, though, is that, like, there is more acceptance for a man to be released that way at a gym than it is for a woman to be. And it's finding the spaces. And I think our society is really trying to do this, but it's finding those spaces. Like, when you go to a boxing class, you know, it's totally normal. When you go to the class.

Taryn's the class, it's totally normal. Right.

So how do you like. Because I'm sure that all the guys that are listening to this Right now are like, like, okay, that's cool. That's great. How do I create the space? Or almost like, create the. Not permission, but create the space for my partner to express that anger in a healthy way. And is that something that they can do or support?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's. I'm a big believer that we're sort of responsible for our own lanes. So I do think, obviously we can take help from our partners and others. You know, the invitation for men to kind of help their partners, it's maybe through, like. I guess the first thing that came to mind was more like, do you want to, like, just go into the bedroom and scream into a pillow together? Do you know? Like, that was sort of the first thing that came to mind. But, you know, like, removing the shame, right? Just like, you want to scream, scream, let's scream. You know, like, you want to, like, let's walk outside, go for a hike and, like, yell at the top of the mountain, whatever it is. Like, you wanna do it in front of a thousand people, do it in front of it. Who cares?

I just like giving. Even just creating this space. I think sometimes what I've seen to be very helpful with people that have trouble expressing their anger is to just say, do you feel angry right now? And you have the permission to be angry in the space right now? And to just have them own it sometimes is the first step for them to get to that place where they feel like they can go and express it in that really outward way.

I'm not sure I love the, like, you have the permission to do that. I worry that saying that means that when I say it, you have the permission to. And when I don't, you don't. So I'm just cognizant of that. As you're saying it, I know that the intention behind it is like, here's this space. But maybe it's less about, like, hey, I hold this permission card. And more just like, let's go do this. And like, you know what? Screw that story. Because I think we both are allowed to be angry when we both need to be angry. And sort of setting the, like, the foundation, the tone that, like, those bullshit messages are not part of our story and our relationship. Because the same thing would be, like, if I said to you, like, right now you have the permission to show emotion, right? Like, what if I don't say that? Like, what we know in our foundation is that you can show emotion whenever you want to show emotion. I can show emotion whenever I want to show Emotion like it's understood. So maybe it's less about a permission card and less about like, hey, in this moment, let's go do this, and more about a sit down conversation that builds the foundational pieces for your relationship in which you actually go through some of the messages that keep us constrained, that keep us stuck, and eliminate those messages so that your partnership is one where there's freedom to express yourself as long as it it's for you and not malicious and nasty and degrading or condescending in any way. Where it crosses over a line. For me, that's probably the greatest start point is just let's talk about our relationship and what we're good with and what we need to crack through so that it's just an underlying piece of knowledge of like, yeah, I can go rage right now and that's gonna be okay, or I can cry right now and that's not going to be seen as less than.

Or shameful.

Shameful?

Yeah. I mean, it sounds like relational leadership in a lot of ways, like taking leadership within the relationship and almost like identifying what's needed in that moment. I think the last piece, because we need to start wrapping up here. I think the last piece that I really wanted to talk about and I'm sure that this is a bigger conversation, like, you know, I wanted to. I'm sure I'll have you back on to talk about like infidelity, for example, and some of those pieces. But I did want to touch on. You've talked about translating messages before and I hear you bring this up quite often in the work that you've done and some of the interviews that you've done. And can you unpack translating messages, how that shows up in relationship and then we'll dive into it a little bit.

Yeah. So one of the things that often comes up in my sessions or interviews is when people are complaining and criticizing another, you know, their partner, or they're frustrated about something like how what's actually happening there and how do we translate that? And so a little bit about what I was saying around conflict and anger is also similar to what I'm going to say around criticism and complaints is that behind criticisms and frustrations that we verbalize or don't verbalize, but behind them are generally emotional needs that are going unmet. And so part of the work is again, unpacking that and having people translate their frustrations into what it is they actually need and want from the other person. So when we stay in the criticism frustration space, it's a really good way to not get needs met. Like, it is probably, like, the quickest and easiest repellent of all time. You want something, criticize another. You won't get it.

So when we can shift that to, hey, I vulnerably share with you that this is an emotional need or a need that I have that did get met, and that's something that I want you to prioritize is a much different story than, like, why are you leaving the top of the toothpaste off again? And that content is so dumb. And yet people fight about it all the time. And I imagine that many people have heard, like, it's not about the lid. You know, it's not about the top. It's not about the wet towel, towel on the bed. I know there's people right now who are like, no, literally, it's about the towel, the wet towel on the bed. I just don't want wet sheets. Like, can that just be a thing? Which it can be a thing, and oftentimes it's also that we don't feel heard. For example, and maybe we grew up in a system in which we were.

Maybe the youngest child who sort of got overlooked and their voice wasn't honored at the time dinner table, or maybe we had a sibling who had special needs, and so our parents spent more energy and time caretaking that sibling. And so we sort of met our own needs and didn't really ask for much, but always felt like there wasn't room to be heard. Right. I'm just giving a couple of examples. There can be so many different reasons and stories that we tell ourselves in that space. But my invitation is for people to think about what need is being missed when you are complaining or criticizing or frustrated about something and try to move that into a space of revealing what need is missed and how you'd like that to be different. This stuff takes work, though, you know, like, this isn't like, hey, let me listen to a podcast, and like, all of a sudden I go out and I do all this. Like, this really does take work. And it takes moving things into your conscious mind. It takes the self awareness, the relational awareness to understand why it is we shut down in this way, why it is that we close off, why we react the ways that we do. But once we start to move that into our conscious mind again, we have this opportunity for great connection and deep intimacy. Because if there's anything you take away, behind all of this is information that is both valuable to you and your partner.

That's awesome. It's really good. Well, I think we'll probably wrap it up there. And the last piece that I just would love for you to touch on is.

So we're not wrapping it up?

Well, no, this will be brief.

This will be brief.

I think it's interesting because the more time that I spend in New York, the more that I see that therapy is sort of like a culture here. And a lot of people go to therapy here. And I haven't seen that in a lot of other cities, but it seems to be that a lot of people here are very committed to working on themselves. They're very open to saying that there's an issue for some people, not everybody for sure. But why is that? And why do you think that therapy maybe not why is that, but why do you think that going to therapy is beneficial?

Well, so I agree with you that a lot of people do go to therapy here and it's, it's more freely spoken about than I think probably a lot of other places.

Are they just more messed up? Is that.

No, I think across the board everybody has their own stuff to deal with. I, you know, I think. Well, one thing that I'll throw out, I think there's many reasons, but one, therapy is a luxury, right? So we also live in a city where people can afford this luxury. One, so I'll, I'll get that out of the way. Two, I think we are full of a city of very highly intellectual and driven people. And I believe that in order to be, generally speaking, in order to be greatly successful, it really requires self and relational awareness. And so because it is a city full of go getters and.

Really creative people, inspirational humans, very smart individuals, these people want their full kind of like game plan to be at its peak. And it can't be at its peak if you don't have self and relational awareness. It just can't be. If you are not in a space of understanding and picking up on people and knowing how to interact with people and how to communicate with them, those relationships and that work is going to struggle. So it doesn't mean that everybody is like self and relationally aware who is successful. I imagine that there are plenty of people who have found ways to make a lot of money here without having those steps in place. But if I had to take a stab at at least like one thing, why people are so open to it, that is one or the second one and then two, maybe like the counter to that is because maybe going back to what you said, because people are so focused on career and power and money and control in this city. It also means that they're not prioritizing relationships, which is why my business does fairly well, because people are coming in to try to understand relationships and why they're ending or why they can't find a partner who matches well with them. So, I don't know, we could probably do an entire podcast on this topic. But yes, people, we've done a really good job of removing the stigma, Whether it's because we're just more open about it and, like, everybody just sees the value in. In it, or because people need it, because creating romantic relationships here seems to be kind of harder and for. For whatever reason, you know, I imagine that there's plenty of things that can. Can contribute to that, but those are the ones that come to mind.

No, it's ok. I appreciate it. And thanks so much for joining me on the podcast.

You're welcome.

And for everybody else out there listening, you can go to mantalks.com and check out more blog posts and podcasts. You can also leave us a review on itunes. And if you haven't done that, you can check the link in the bio and you should. 110,000%. That doesn't even make sense numerically. Check out Vienna on. On Instagram. It's Mindfulmft. We'll have the link on the website and in the show notes below. And you can check out her website as well. Where should they go to find you?

That's new yorkcouplescounseling.com but you should definitely.

Follow her on Instagram because it's a pretty awesome profile. So that's my one little plug.

Mft as in Marriage Family Therapy. People are at nft. Yeah. Mindful mft. Marriage Family Therapy.

It's not a personality type. Awesome. Well, until next week, this is Connor Beaton signing off. Join me next week for another inspiring conversation with another inspiring individual.