What Destroys Relationships Over Time, with Debra Lieberman

All right, Deborah, welcome to the ManTalks show. After lots of technical difficulty, um, that was completely my fault. Although our joke for everybody listening and tuning in was it was like your classic online or just like dating problem, you know, it's like, it's not, it's not me, it's a them thing. Uh, but it was definitely me. So welcome to the show.

Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. You're going to laugh so hard right now because I just heard construction start. So if that ends up being a thing, we can totally— but yeah, I'm really happy to be here. Thanks for having me. And I look forward to having a great conversation.

Likewise. Likewise. I mean, I feel like we have good rapport. We've already gone through something hilarious, aggravating, and fun. So how do you describe your work to a layperson?

So I'm an evolutionary psychologist, and it's a branch of biology. I apply the principles of evolutionary biology to understand human cognition. So we've got a whole bunch of circuits on our shoulders. The question is, what kind of programs, what kind of behaviors did evolution build into our kind of human operating system? And evolutionary psychologists approach this question by thinking about past environments the kind of problems we had to solve over vast amounts of time and the design systems or the solutions to those problems that are now part of our, our software, our mental apps, if you will.

What is the evolutionary— because here's the path I want to go down. I'm going to give you some context, maybe list some context. A lot of the times evolutionary psychology is sort of looked at from a mating and dating perspective. That seems to be where it gets a lot of the hot takes and a lot of the attention. Also misinterpreted the most. But what I'm curious to start off with is, is looking at the evolutionary purpose of something like emotions. Because I think for most of us guys, you know, that can be a very complex issue. Like, why should I have to feel these emotions? How do I deal with these emotions? They sometimes seem to be something that can get in the way. You know, we can over-index on logic and rationality. So what's the evolutionary function or purpose of emotions in general?

So that's a, it's a great question. And I've been researching emotions for quite some time, but you're right to say that the lion's share of evolutionary psychology is focused on mating, right? So it's obviously the sexy topic and who doesn't want to know about our mating psychology? And it's, there's a very rich psychology there, but there's a whole other world, a set of worlds, right? That govern social behavior and cooperation. Emotions are an interesting set of programs. So I would define an emotion as an evolved program that is there to coordinate kind of our behavior. So elements of our physiology, whether it be our heart rate, our digestion, our muscle tone, our visual acuity, what we're listening to, but also elements of our psychology as well, the things that we perceive, the ways that we communicate, our facial expressions and so forth. But emotions, solved a problem that repeated over our evolutionary history. And so the question is, what kind of problems existed that would have led to the buffet of emotions that we now have? And so if I can get into the weeds for a second, and please pull me right out. So one of the topics that I'm very interested in is this concept of social value. So as a social species, we We compute and we figure out other people's social value, not consciously, but you meet someone and you know whether you like them, right? It's almost an automatic, you know, judgment call. And, but what's really going on there? How does your mind, how does your brain generate that sense of, hey, I like this person versus, oof, I'm gonna steer clear. And so we're doing a very quick set of calculations about each individual and we're assessing their social value value. So what makes someone of high value, right? So what's happening behind the curtain, behind the veil?

The big $20,000 red pill question.

Yeah, exactly. So I'll tell you what I think goes into that calculation. So whether someone's family or not, so your assessment of their degree of relatedness. So we care about family and there's good biological reasons why. And so we cooperate with family. We feel obligated to make sure they're okay. They call, we answer. They need money, we give them sometimes money, sometimes advice. And so, but the idea is that kinship is certainly a privileged category, but we're nice to people beyond kin. And we're one of the few species that is. I mean, you have other, plenty of other social animals that identify who their relatives are and are very altruistic towards individuals as a function of their relatedness. We have friends, we form groups, we have coalitions, we trade. And so there's a lot more to human nature. So why else would you care about someone? What goes into their social value? Well, with respect to friendship, we assess another person's kind of portfolio, right? So what do I see as your portfolio of benefits? What kinds of things do you do that to me, you know, are beneficial? And everyone's different, right? So because of my preferences, you know, I like I like talking about science. You like talking about science. So that's a plus in your column, right? So, and you know, and you don't get frustrated very easily apparently. So that's, there's another plus, right? So, but the whole idea is we are assessing people in terms of how their preferences line up with ours and also what kind of benefits they have on offer. So we have, we form friends with people that we We get along with, we're on the same wavelength, but what that's really translating into, we've determined that they have a set of benefits that we really value and they value in us a set of, you know, our own portfolio. So it's mutual. And it's, what's interesting is when these things, relationships get out of sync, but that's, that's maybe for a little, in a little bit of our conversation, but when, um, so kinship, how I value you in terms of your portfolio, how you value me, but there's another reason why you might have high social value in my world, and that's because you're big and scary. And so I'm going to defer to you and I'll be nice to you, you know, because I kind of have to, and so forth. And the last category would be the norms that we have. So I might not be related to you. I might not like your portfolio of benefits. I might even be bigger than you and can, like, you know, bop you over the head and take your stuff. But I will begrudgingly be nice to you because I know that there's a norm to do so. And the group can kind of coordinate against me and I could be punished and, you know, sent away and so forth. So there's a lot of reasons why— all the reasons that we make a snap judgment about a given person in a given context at a given time as to how we value them socially. But that concept of social value— I value you and I have an idea of how much you value me, right? So we just met. It's not well-formed, but the idea is with each progressive interaction, I'm getting information and data that's generating a more, a less uncertain estimate of how you value me. So all to say, we know how much other people care about us. So to put it, translate it into human, right? So we know how much we care about other people, but we're also acutely aware of how much they care about us. and certain emotions, particularly social emotions, track these dimensions. So for instance, anger seems to be an emotion that tracks when— so I have a sense of how much I believe you ought to value me, but then if you did something and you insulted me, I, you know, so if I think you value me up here and then an action comes in and my brain goes, you know, like that, that action kind of, that lowballs it a little bit. And so that anger, that kind of sense of what the hell just happened, you know, It's that delta between how much I thought you were supposed to value me and what I expected and the incoming information of how you actually just acted. And so anger is triggered at that negative delta and whether or not you have the formidability and leverage is gonna determine your reaction to that. So most men, so I don't wanna talk about sex differences, although I'm sure I will, So let me just— maybe I should say, if I do say something about sex differences, I'm talking about like if you squint, right? If you squint and like, you know, what does that look like? Like from a distance, the sexes differ quite a bit depending on what competence you're talking about and what domain. So, but when it comes to formidability, especially physical formidability, most men are more physically formidable than most women. There's certainly some women who are far more formidable than some men, to be sure. And so how you view yourself is going to dictate your response when you determine someone hasn't valued you as highly as you believe they ought to. And also your sensitivity to the norms, what other people think and so forth. So if you're like the, you know, the 800-pound gorilla and you're walking into a room and someone like insults you, you could have an opportunity to like, you know, smack 'em upside the head, get really angry, puff up and be like, what the hell, right? And so that's one thing you can do. Or another possibility, of course, is if you don't feel like you have the leverage, you can be more passive about it, right? So women who tend to not feel, again, none of this is conscious and I don't wanna offend any women, so I throw myself right into this bucket. And so the idea that you're in a situation and you perceive, perhaps you're just registering without even knowing that you're outleveraged. There's more people that are getting kind of angry with you or the person who is angry angry with you just has those ancestral cues of being bigger. And so it definitely is interpreted as a possible danger. And so what are you gonna do? You're gonna try and pull off some like, you know, well, if you don't start doing the dishes, then I'm gonna, I'm gonna take this fork. And you know, like, what are women gonna do? I mean, that's possible, of course, but it's more likely there's a passive aggression. Like, you know, it's like, well, you think that's okay? Like, who's gonna do your laundry? Like kind of thing. And so, but, that withholding. So either you can, you can try and get your way by imposing costs on another person or withholding the benefits that you deliver. And it all depends on the kind of benefits the other person, you know, appreciates in your portfolio. But that, that's, that's one example of an emotion that's tied to this important variable and concept of social value. And others are as well.

So Another way to frame this, maybe, would it be fair to say that emotions are a different form of data and information for us to determine relational safety, relational value?

Yeah, I really do think so. And so being aware of when you start to feel angry, right? So I do think that it's helpful to understand the underlying kind of systems that evolve to guide behavior. So if you feel yourself getting angry, You can ask yourself, okay, so what did they do? You know, I obviously felt like they imposed a cost or they did something to kind of, you know, I took a hit somehow. What is it? And what are, what are some options, right? And so, and I think that in today's world, there are a lot more, I want to say rational, but there's far more calmer options at this point, right? So identifying the fact that it might not be you. It's me. No. So it might not be you in the sense of someone else has a bug up their ass, right? Or they're insecure, and so they're gonna throw an elbow, they're gonna take a shot at you. And what are you gonna do with that? You're gonna get angry or you're just gonna understand and say, I see where this is coming from. Okay. And then the question is, so in a relationship, When that happens, it can be really stressful, right? So it's like you don't wanna create more of a conflict, but I think actually calling it out calmly, so not letting anger take hold, understanding that, yeah, I'm angry, don't fire off that email, don't start slamming the doors and don't start yelling, but, you know, just to kind of ratchet it back down to having more control and taking the time to understand the full situation, I think is always better. So yeah, I think, Understanding these kinds of things can certainly help in relationships.

All right, guys, really quick aside. First off, thank you so much for tuning in to the show and to the channel. If you are wanting to go deeper, if you're a man that's working on himself in some way, shape, or form, you're wanting to be more self-led, you want to trust yourself more, you want to have a deeper level of self-worth, or maybe you're looking to improve your relationship, then I encourage you to check out the Man Talks Alliance. You can go to mantalks.com/alliance. We have over 1,000 men in this incredible community from around the world, men who are just like you, working to better themselves, to be a better husband, a better father, a better leader in your own life. So check it out, mantalks.com/alliance. I'm curious about, you know, that we all sort of hear the notion of the saying like, 80% of communication is nonverbal or whatever the percentage is, right? 90% or 70%. You know, I think it kind of changes. Would it be fair to say that the majority of that nonverbal communication is emotional data and information combined with physiological somatic data and information that we're picking up on? It's like subtle body cues, but also that the energetic information of how somebody's feeling.

I think it's yes. It's— so the answer is yes. I think there's so much information that you could be detecting on someone's face, their body language, that what I've been surprised about is even, you know, my training as a psychologist, how there's a gap, I think, in the training Well, at least let me speak just for myself. There was a gap in my training in terms of not being brought up to speed on the nonverbal aspects of communication. My sense is that ancestrally, we were very attuned to people's body language, understanding what their intent was, whether they liked us, what they saw, what they heard, how they were doing. I think we were just far more in tune to other people. I think that we've grown soft in kind of modern environments, maybe. Maybe that, maybe I'm making an excuse here for myself, but I think that, I think there's a rich amount of data. And once you start to look at it again, and once you start to tune into that channel, I think there's a rich supply of information about other people, whether or not someone is dishonest, whether someone is being truthful, I mean, whether or not there's actual cues of deception, that's an interesting question in and of itself. But I do think that you can tell when someone is stressed, when they are interested, when they are feigning interest potentially. And so there are cues that once you start to look for them and assess them, I think you can actually have stronger and better relationships. Not only that, I think you can make better decisions about which relationships you wanna enter into.

Yeah. I mean, one of the— I mean, you know, our organization works a lot with men, and sometimes I will have men come in that are, you know, execs or they're either sort of elite athletes or whatever. And the big question sometimes is like, why should I care about my emotions? Why should I give a shit about how I feel? Or for men that have experienced abuse or trauma and, you know, they've, they've developed very specific maladaptive coping mechanisms to ensure that they never have to experience the intensity of the emotions that exist inside of them. And as soon as you start to bring them closer to them, all those defense mechanisms come up, right? Because it's like, well, I don't know if I want to feel those things. But oftentimes it is the disconnection from that data and information, the disconnection from the data and the information of emotions that is causing that man to have so much chaos in his life. You know, he's not able to read you know, the real richness or understanding of how he's feeling internally. And so he's confused. He doesn't really know if that's like the relationship that he wants to have. And so is there— I mean, I have so many questions that stem out of this, but is there, is there an evolutionary reason why someone might shut themselves off from that emotional data?

Well, the first thing I was thinking when you, when you started talking about this is that, um, so the answer is probably yes, but where, where I start is it's hard work. It's really hard work. And sometimes you get down into the muck and you really have to be okay thinking about why and who you are and being willing to grow. And being okay with looking into the abyss and being okay with feeling a little bit of shame if you're not happy with where you are, knowing that I can, you know, you can always, the next moment is the next moment to change and to turn things around always, right? And so, but if you are someone who is entitled, thinks that things should come easy to you, maybe you don't think that you should have to work in order for, to have, you know, to have an awesome life. But you know something? I think that in order to get to a stage of happiness, it takes, it takes a lot of fucking work. And I'm not kidding, like, it takes a lot of work. You have to look at yourself, you have to take a really hard look in the mirror and say, who am I? How do I deal with other people? How do I want to improve? What do I want to be like? And who's doing the kinds of things? What does it sound like? And what, and what habits do I have? What decisions do I make? And I think that it can be very painful. And if you are, I don't care how big you are, I don't care what kind of star athlete you are, you know, inside there could be a little, you know, little entitled, you know, snot-nosed little boy who's just like, why should I have to do any of this work? Right? And so, and then they exist. And so to them, I would say, if you're not willing to do the work, I don't know what you expect. Right? And so life is going to be hard. You're not going to enjoy the emotions. So for me now, I mean, listen, it's been a few decades, right? So it's been quite a learning curve. And I wish I knew then what I know now. But here's what I can say is that when I start to feel not only angry, but grateful, or really happy, or I giggle at something, or I find something amusing, or I get confused— so confusion is something that I'm actually very sensitive to because I Well, we can talk about that, but I think I'm very sensitive to when my operating system registers information of any sort, because now I think, you know, whoa, whoa, whoa, what's going on? You know, how are we going to deal with this, Deb? What, you know, where do we want to put our efforts, right? So this person is doing that. Is this person worth it? You know, or are they giving me information about how I want to regard them in the future? Thank you very much. So I take, you know, the idea that you're gonna piss me off, I just think, all right, I don't know what more, like someone's doing the same thing over and over and over again. Who's the idiot, right? So it's like, you know, so I have one or two relationships where I get the same thing over and over and over again. And I've decided those are relationships that I wanna have in my world. So I've decided that's, they're gonna stay and I know I know the monkey I'm dealing with, right? So I know what I'm dealing with and I don't have to worry about it anymore. Like, do I expect a miracle to happen and them to change all of a sudden? Like, what world am I living in? And the thing is, I think I used to. I used to hold out hope. Like, maybe this person will somehow turn into my soulmate. Like, maybe tomorrow they'll wake up and realize how awesome I am and how much they should be nice to me. And they shouldn't be exploitative or manipulative. Manipulative or, you know, the piece of shit that they are or whatever. But my point is, what do you expect? How much data do you need in order to make a call? And actually, that's where I am now in my research is kind of helping people identify how much information do you need in order to make a judgment call? And, you know, do you want to keep going back to this? Well, if you do, that's fine, but your decision is not— you're not going to see anything new, right? So it is, you know, anyway, so I think that understanding when these emotions occur and then how to deal with them, you know, why do we deal with them? You can try to outrun evolution, good luck. But I would say better to do the work, do a year's worth of really hard work of understanding why it is you're bugged, what happened in the past that might have caused you to interpret and get, you know, be very sensitive, hypersensitive maybe, to other types of situations. And then man up and learn how to talk about it, right? So it's like, hey, listen, I just want to let you know, like, I, I really don't like these kinds of situations. I'd prefer not to be in them. Is it all right if we leave? Like, and anyone on the other end of that conversation, like, no, I really wanted to stay. All my friends are here and the music. And I would say, all right, see ya. And have a nice life. Like, anyone who's not going to want to tend to your, you know, to your feelings is not someone to be around.

It sounds like emotions give us a kind of non— excuse me, a kind of like nonverbal data that exists. It's like a subset of data or information that exists outside of what we're hearing, right? It's because it's like the old saying, listen to what they say, but also really watch what they do. And it seems as though evolution has created us in a way where so much of what people do and how we feel in reference to people is an extremely important thing when it comes to family, intimate partners, friendships, business dealings. You know, I think even when you look at, when you look at sales, for example, I used to do sales quite a bit. And a huge— I mean, when I worked at Apple for a period of time and I was in the sales department for a brief period and then, you know, moved into leadership and, and I very quickly moved up the ladder and was like one of the top salespeople in that, uh, in the region. And, you know, people were like asking me questions and I wasn't smarter than a lot of the other salespeople. I didn't know more about the technology, the computers. I just was able to let people feel at ease and was able to listen to them. And so I think that part of my result as a salesperson was just the ability to have somebody feel comfortable in, you know, in relationship to me and in an interaction with me and have that data and information be genuine. You know, I think that that's something that people sort of miss. And so is it fair to say that perhaps we evolved emotions so that we could have nonverbal data to make it easier to detect people that are aligned with us, that are hostile to us, that are a threat to us, that could be useful or connected to us. Like, is that a fair way to put it?

Yeah, I think that's a really nice way to put it. It's kind of like our dashboard as to what's going on, and it provides some really nice readouts on the different gauges. Right. So who's, who's valuing me highly? Who's valuing— who's valuing me less than they ought to? How is the group viewing me, you know, how do I view this group and so forth. So gratitude is kind of the polar opposite of anger. So if I do, you know, if I do something really nice for you that was unexpected, then that shows I have greater value for you, more than you had expected. And again, now that delta, that positive delta in how I value you registers in your mind as Huh, hmm, maybe this is a relationship or a cooperative relationship that's worth tending to and ensuring its future kind of, you know, that it continues on into the future. So friendships actually can get jumpstarted by someone doing something just that's part of their normal everyday routine that someone else finds very beneficial when they say, oh my gosh, thank you so much for doing that. I'd be like, that's just normally what I do. In my brain, I think, hey, someone just thanked me. Someone just found value in my kind of portfolio of behaviors, the things that I like to do. That person compared to everyone else might be the person, but someone that should be on my radar as someone who I might wish to kind of reciprocate and invest in so that there can be a mutually valuable relationship that develops. And friendships snowball like that, and they can do that very quickly. but it's all based on the idea of who values me like that. We're, we're constantly, I mean, listen, social media, it's all, it's like, look at me, look at me, value me, value me. Right. So, you know, look at my vacation, look at my friends, look at my outfit, look at my cooking, you know, all this stuff. And so for any, any domain at all, people can value the range and it ranges. And so, um, and, but everyone's looking to be valued for a unique aspect that other people can't find elsewhere.

It seems like, I mean, one of the things that I usually talk to men about is just the very simple, almost like rational reason to understand what you're feeling and what's happening to you emotionally is that one, there's, it's important data and information. I just look at it as data and information. And, and two, it seems as though if you don't understand what you're experiencing, feeling, or going through on a regular basis, that's going to be very confusing, disorienting. Maybe you're not going to have a deeper understanding of what you want or why you want it, especially in relationships with other people. It's going to be harder to have clarity. But it also seems like if you aren't aware of what you're feeling, like emotions seem like they are the most manipulable part of us. You know, and so if you're not aware of what you're feeling and what's going on inside of you and what emotions are happening, it almost seems like you're much more easy to coerce and manipulate into a decision or a belief or an ideology. Is that like, am I on something there? Is that complete bullshit?

I mean, maybe it's what Chris would call bro science, but Well, then it's chick science too, because I think that's probably, you know, that sounds about right. So if I think that social relationships can cause so many different types of emotions, but then, so now you're in a particular state, and if you're like me, then you get anxious that you're in a state. And so it just kind of starts to pile on, and that can lead to all sorts of like, it just spirals. It spirals out of control. And so I think that you can stop that spiraling immediately by saying, okay, right, so I am pissed off right now, like so pissed. And so, you know, what do you, I mean, what did I tell my son growing up? Like, you just need count from 10 backwards, like sit here, you know, do something else, back away from the keyboard, back away from the fridge, back away from the liquor cabinet. You know, like—

Nothing pissed me off more as a kid than fucking math problems.

But so the question is, what do you do in order just to kind of say, you know, A, I identify, like, I'm not— I just need a moment. But here's the other thing. I have learned that— so self-talk for me, um, so I, I hope I don't sound too crazy. I'm, I'm— I am crazy. I'll just admit it now. And so I— but I talk to myself all the time now, and my inner dialogue— I'm so glad this is being recorded— and so my inner dialogue basically says something like, okay, Deb, like, listen, I can't believe that just happened. Like, what the fuck? Sorry, I also curse a lot too. And so what, you know, I cannot believe that happened. They have such nerve. Like, who do they think they are? Like, I'm not a doormat. And so I just say, what are we gonna do about it? And then I kind of, so sometimes I try and make myself laugh, like, well, let's think of like the craziest thing we could do right now, you know, versus, and so I just try to bring my own self back down to reality. And so does it work? Sometimes. Other times I am at the keyboard, but here's what I do know, do not push send. Like I'm allowed to write it, but I give myself, I have to, I tell myself, You have to wait an hour in order to send it. And I always come back, I'm like, delete. I do not need to say that. And so, but giving myself time. So my particular, what I tell my friends and some of the clients that I have is time. Time is really your best friend here. It allows you to kind of get your physiology back under control. And not only that, really think through what just happened Is it me? Is there something that I need to correct? Because if it is, well, let's correct it and then be done with it. Move on, apologize, done, next situation. If it's not me, then I have to say, excuse me, I want to let you— I need to learn how to communicate better about it. Um, and that's the difficult part sometimes, right? So because the communication people tie to conflict, and I think that If we were more secure inside and knowing that we have to be our own best advocate. So I'm like, Deb, you need to have Deb's back. So if I were you, I'd get off your little patoots and walk over there and I would say what you need to say. And who cares? So long as you say it kindly and so long as you say it with respect, you've said it and you've done the right thing and you can, you know, it'll be a good day. But that communication, sometimes you're like, what are they going to do? Are they going to like start spitting fire at me? Are they going to like start, you know, what is the other person going to do? And I say rarely do they do any of that. Rarely, especially if you do it. I mean, what's the worst that can happen is they can say, you know, up yours, I disagree, or, you know, get the hell out of here. And then you know who you're dealing with. It's more information to your point. It's more data. But if they said, hey, you know what, I really appreciate you coming to talk to me about that. I want us to have a better relationship. That's a data point. And it's like, okay, like, and I wasn't just, you know, there was no machetes, there was nothing coming at me. I can talk about these things. And so I think just that first step, jumping out of your comfort zone when one of these emotions takes hold, I think can be the first step to seeing, A, being your own best advocate, but learning some of the techniques. And there are a lot of people out there publishing stuff on communication that I have found really valuable in order to be a better, you know, a better teacher, a better educator, better consultant, better mom. I mean, better, you know, family member, all these things. And it's, it's very valuable. But back to the other point, it's work. And so if you're not willing to put in the work to grow—

I want to come back to this notion of differing, um, like how men and women have maybe evolved differently and that there are differences between the sexes. And that seems almost like a strange thing to say in some places, like almost like a taboo thing. Is there, is there research or is there an evolutionary reason to negate sex differences? Because this is something that I've been, I've been curious about and fascinated with that, that in some circles it seems to be the case that the negation of any sex differences is like the goal, you know. And so if you point out a sex difference, suddenly that's taboo, that's wrong, or you get called a name or whatever it is. So is there an evolutionary reason to try and negate something like physical formidability, right? That there's no difference between men and women from a strength or size difference or a speed difference or, you know, you can look at like intelligence as an example when you look at the data. Men are, are more represented at the top of IQ, but they're also way more represented at the very bottom of IQ. And so, but it seems like one of them is okay to say. It's like, it's okay to say that men are, you know, dumber than women, but it's not okay to say that on average the highest intelligence men or people generally tend to be men. And so, or that they're at the extremes. So why would that be? Why would Why would we evolve to want to negate true evolutionary differences, sex differences?

So that's part of the larger discussion on coalitional psychology. So the idea that we form coalitions and coordinating against other groups of people is pleasurable and, you know, is something that we have an appetite for. So identifying groups of individuals who seem of lower leverage or easily picked on is something that we have a— we tend to do. So you now talk about a small group of biologists, you know, it's who have been trained— well, a relatively small group of humans who have been trained in evolutionary biology or evolutionary psychology or, you know, other sciences. And understand evolution and sex differences and sexual selection and so forth. So suddenly now it seems to justify— so other people can say, oh, now you're justifying a lot of the sex differences that you speak of, um, which very few people do. But the idea— so there's a bunch of, bunch of things collide at this particular topic. So A, it's a relatively small group of people who hold these beliefs, at least academically, right? I think probably any idiot on the street is like, yeah, the sexes differ. It's only you have to go into like academia to be like, no, the sex— like, I don't, I don't know. Anyway, I mean, seriously, like, it's really a weird academy when you have half of it like sex differences and others are like, there's no sex differences. And then the students are like, who do I believe? And so that's another story. But in addition to the fact that there's a kind of a coalitional psychology of let's find people to just trounce and cancel, but then there is the intuition that we are very flexible, that culture and that the outside environment dictates our behavior. So now you get into kind of nature versus nurture sorts of things. And they're— and so this is where most people are on the— I would say a lot of people would tend towards the no, you basically learn things from your culture, and your culture and your social world dictate how you are. And so if you were in a social world where privileged men and all these other things, well, that's just the world you're in. You could have very easily had a world that privileged women, and women would be stronger and bigger. I mean, and had made more money and had a higher IQ and so forth. And so there starts to be a discussion about what the forces are that generate human nature and human behavior. And so there's, and this is a huge divide, right? So evolutionary psychology comes at this question and says, look, we all have the same basic operating system. Every human the world round, just like if you were to, you know, Grey's Anatomy applies to every human no matter where they're born on this planet. In the very same way, we have a universal psychological architecture. And you might even want to say that there's like a female typical and a male typical psychological architecture, just like there's a female typical and a male typical body plan, right? And so not to say that there's not differences and not to say that there's not variations, because there are, of course. But then the question becomes, how does all of this develop? What's there and how does it develop? How does it calibrate? How do you explain individual differences in the cultural variation across time and space? And these are really interesting questions. But what evolutionary psychologists will maintain, and a lot of folks who understand the brain, is that it's not a blank slate. Is that you don't— that it is not content independent. You cannot learn any two things with equal force. Evolution prepared us to learn about certain things in particular ways, right? So we all learn a language by virtue of the mental app, you know, for the language acquisition. But which language you learn depends. But everything's grabbing a noun, everything's grabbing a verb, a time tense, you know, how it's done in terms of, you know, the adverb and how, you know, if the type— the type of— type of thing it is, and adjectives. Like, there's different categories of things that are that are absolutely constant across most languages, and that's why you can translate across any language. So the idea that there have to be systems that guide food choice, mate choice, language acquisition, spatial navigation, understanding social value. So all of these things have to be there. So getting back to, you know, why is it there are people who are going to deny any type of sex difference? These tend to be people with a mindset that culture dictates everything. Everything that is inside the head was once outside signal. And I'm not saying that we don't take in a lot of information. We do, we do tremendously, but it's highly guided and it's guided by the systems in our brain that are doing the capturing, right? So I mean, I can talk, you know, to this, I know this is gonna sound silly, but I can talk to my mug all day long. It's not gonna learn anything. right? And people are like, yeah, duh, right? But the idea is I could program it. I could actually put some digital circuitry in it so it could actually learn to warm up, you know, like heat up now, you know, cool down now. Like I could actually build in circuitry to make it functional and flexible. And the idea is you don't get anything for nothing. Any engineer will tell you, unless it's coded in, you're not gonna get it. And you might, people might say, well, what about ChatGPT and these LLMs? Well, even those are trained. And, you know, I've got news for you. Those were trained on not random utterances. They were trained on very scrubbed, very cleaned, calibrated data points, actual language that's been already pre-digested with the inference engines that we evolved to use to figure out language. So it's not, you know, it's not like a baby coming into the world and hearing a stream of of, you know, everything. It's basically been fed exactly the patterns that it's going to regurgitate out in a very cool way, no doubt. But the point is, is that it's not— it's, it's highly guided in, in a, in a, from a given perspective. So sexes do differ. They differ psychologically in a variety of ways, just like they differ physiologically. The question is how, and then Is it meaningful, and to whom, and for what purpose? So there are a whole bunch of questions that go along with that. Um, but the idea that, yeah, so there's— and obviously politically when it comes to the Olympics and you've got chromosomal sex, and I mean, how sexual psychology develops is itself a very complex system. So the chromosomes, the genes you have, that's one aspect of it, but then the question is, what's your internal plumbing? What are your external organs? And then how has your mental life been shaped? You know, how have the hormones early on during development calibrated your mental systems that are only observable once you hit puberty and everything kind of activates? So there's so many different, it's like a Chinese menu, right? Choose one from each column and you can get the buffet of variation that we see across people. But that does not minimize the fact that on average, men and women differ in a lot of ways.

Yeah. And I think, I think one of the things I mean around IQ, just to sort of close that loop so I'm not misinterpreted because oftentimes I am, I'm not saying that men are better or worse. I'm saying that it's, it looks like based on the data and the research that, that I can remember who said this. I had a guy on the show a long time ago that said something along the lines that like nature seems to have created or biology seems to have created men to be more of a plaything and or to play thing. Yeah. Like to test things out, you know, that, that it's not that men are better or worse than women, that it's just that the difference is that there seems to be more variation. And when you look at IQ, there's a broader variation. You have more outliers of men at the top and the bottom than you do with women. And so I think that that's, that's sort of an interesting piece. And I wonder if that's part of the case. Like, do you feel like— well, maybe, maybe we can move away from that and sort of look at like, what are some of the evolutionary differences between men and women that you can see and that we can observe, not just from a biological sense, but maybe even from like an emotional sense? Are there differences in terms of how men and women experience emotion, feel emotion, express emotion? Have men and women been designed to deal with emotions differently? Or, or to express them differently? What, what would you say to that?

Um, so the general answer to your question is men and women will have different programs to deal with the different kinds of situations that they dealt with over evolutionary history and evolutionary time. So to the extent that men and women often found themselves in very different situations with different, and different, with different problems and different solutions, likely they have different kind of programs to solve them. So one of the things that I recently did some research on, wrote a paper on, was tears. So emotional tears. So why do we cry? I don't presume to have the full explanation, so, you know, take this with a grain of salt for sure. So what are tears? My hypothesis was that tears communicate value. And so just like screaming and yelling is like the amplitude, right? So you can turn up the stereo or down the stereo quite a bit. But if you feel like you're someone who can, who has the leverage to make noise and has the— what do I want to say? You have the standing to attract attention without problem, potentially, right? So you're more formidable. You have higher status or whatever it might be. You can scream and do whatever you you want, right? Everyone's like, you can laugh as loud as you want. But if you are trying to show intensity of emotion and you feel yourself to be of lower leverage, maybe it's low— it doesn't have to be physical or anything, just maybe low self-esteem or whatever— it ends up that tears communicate value in the sense of intensity of— so one of the sex differences, one of the differences that I've read about is that men and women differ in terms of, well, crying. I don't know that I have to say that. It's like one of the obvious things, right? But, um, I, I, I peddle the obvious stuff. So yes, men and women, um, differ in their, their likelihood to cry. And so why is that? Well, women are on average lower leveraged in, like, lower formidability is what I'm really saying by that. And so in any type of physical or any type of conflict, tears actually communicate you're, you're imposing a cost on me. Right? So, and the amount of tears and the intensity of that signal and how much data I'm sending across is supposed to communicate the level of cost in that situation, or it's signaling the level of value, in this case, negative value, right, for your particular action or what has happened out there. It could also signal high positive value. So you can be very grateful and very joyous and so and so forth. And that can also lead to tears, but usually it's on the extremes that do. And so, so I think tears are something that communicate value, positive and negative. But what's interesting is that women, much more than men, will have tears accompany anger. So when— and so this is foreign to most men, which is like crying when you're angry, but not to most women who have been in situations where they have been so angry that they've to cry. And it's a very interesting phenomenon because it's basically saying, you know, you've clearly shown you value me less than I expected. And, you know, I wish I could impose a cost here, but instead I'm realizing, like, crap, you know, I better, you know, different strategy, you know, pull that gear. And so So, you know, the tears might actually communicate you're imposing costs on me and you should value me, you know, more highly. One of the interesting things I have found in some of the readings on like dangerous personalities and so forth is that psychopaths or sociopaths, whatever, some type of path, they don't care about whether their victims are crying. They find it kind of fun. Like they don't take, like you're crying, it's like, hmm, what's that? You know? And so they don't care about the cost. The costs that they're imposing on you, because it's just not a channel that they're receiving on, right? So, 'cause if they were, they never would be doing the kinds of things to you that they are. And so the idea that, so being moved by tears, someone who's not moved by tears, that's something to pay attention to. But in addition to that, one of the things that I've also been interested in is crocodile tears. And that can be generated by men or women. And so normally, so I'm not going to ask you when the last time you cried is, but I can tell you whenever I have cried, I've always been like, you know, you bury your head, you're like, not now. Like, you're kind of always trying to think about how do I get out of the person's view, right? So even in a movie theater that's completely dark, if you start crying, you're like, you just stare like, please, like, dry up kind of thing. Like, I don't want anyone to see. God forbid anyone should see a tear. Like, you know, And so what I find funny is how the normal response to crying is, I want to communicate to you how much of a cost or the value that's associated with this act. And typically it's a negative act, so how much of a cost. But I don't want you to think that I'm easily manipulated in the sense of, of, uh, I don't want you to just— I, I want you to know that I know I'm communicating this to you and it's coming across as a signal of low leverage. And, um, and just understand that I know. I think there's a lot of communication going on there. But with respect to crocodile tears, right, one of the— I, I think, and I would love to do the research on this because I've actually been face to face with it, with people who are like psychopaths who cry, and instead of covering their eyes, they're like, look at the tears falling down my face, right? They're just— they're enamored with their own tears, and it's important that they make you see it. Like, don't look away, look at my eyes. Do you see the water running down them? And so I would say, you know, that's one of the ways that you can start to pick up on some of these nonverbal— it's not what's there, it's what's not there in this So tears, to get back to your question, sorry, I start to ramble, but the idea that men and women for sure differ on tears, right? So kids versus adults, low leverage, high leverage, right? So tears are certainly one thing, but other emotions, sure. So you have, again, depression. So females, so women tend to, so not that men don't get depressed, depressed, but that women tend to get— are more likely to get depressed. But depression itself is— and I should say men are more likely to be in anger management, right? So, but both sides kind of— they're two sides of the same coin in the sense of depression is basically withholding all the benefits. So if I'm in a relationship and I have very little way of negotiating better terms in this relationship. I have few partners that I can trade up for. I'm kind of locked in, or you're manipulating me and preventing me from socializing. You're cutting me off from friends and so forth, and I'm having difficulty getting you to value me, treat me well. So it's— none of this is conscious, but kind of what starts to happen is you start to shut down, right? I'm tired, I don't want to do this. And you start to— I'm not doing— I'm not cleaning, I'm not gonna I'm not going food shopping, I'm not cooking, I'm not going to be doing all these things. What is— what effectively what you're doing is you're starting to withhold benefits. So I can't impose costs, right? But I can start withholding benefits, right?

So I'm too tired, I have a headache, I'll feel joy or express happiness to you or express satisfaction in the relationship.

Yeah, no, it's so— but that's— so if I feel that I'm not getting a good deal in is, you know, each— all relationships are, you know, they're always tested in a sense. They're always being evaluated. And I would say that depression is when things are highly asymmetric and you find that individuals with the lower leverage are outleveraged in a relationship. You tend to find depression and other types of coping mechanisms. And the person who is clearly in, you know, has the leverage, whether it be physical formidability, the status, or financial, they tend to anger, they're more entitled and so forth. So it's a very interesting dynamic that can happen to men and women, but just that more often you find that women are in the position of being, you know, out leveraged.

Yeah, I was going to say, like, going back to that initial question around Why would you want to negate sex differences? Why would you want to negate sex differences? It seems like that's a, a great way of almost like eradicating any type of hard power, you know, like physical formidability, um, social formidability, and almost like over-prioritizing narrative or story, uh, formidability, right? It's like, I'm going to control the narrative around what's true. And that's a type of power that we don't, we don't often think about.

Right.

And that can sometimes even, uh, trump and supersede physical formidability because physical formidability is very, I mean, it's very sequestered into like specific instances where it's socially acceptable to deploy physical formidability, right? So you can be physically formidable, but if you're in a boardroom, you like, you can't deploy that as a means of control and trying to get people to acquiesce with you. And even the process of insinuating that within modern culture and society, maybe like 100 years ago or, you know, 1,000 years ago, like that was okay. But in today's culture, like you, you can't deploy physical formidability. Like you need to agree with me otherwise, like I'm gonna have Muay Thai kick you in the head. But what you can do is I have social power to character assassinate you, to cut you out at the knees, to reputation attack you. And I think that that has become— I think in modern culture and society where physical formidability has started to really fade more and more in the background, it seems like, it seems like social compliance and the ability to manipulate, coerce, convince, etc. Influence doesn't have to be a negative connotation, has really taken the forefront of what is socially acceptable as being formidable. And that just seems like one example, right? It's just like where I'm going to— I'm going to exert my force and power and convince you that what you see actually isn't true.

So I think so. I agree with you. And at the same time, I still think that physical formidability is just something that registers, even though you know you're not walking into a cage match, right? And, you know, cage fight when you go into the boardroom, like, you know that, right? So there are rules, there are norms. But I would be shocked, shocked if men didn't walk into the room and size each other up. Up in terms of like, who, who, you know, who can I take here?

You know, and, you know, I think the research, uh, still shows that like the majority of male CEOs are over 6 feet. It's like some— I can't remember what the percentage is, but the last time I saw it, it was, you know, like the vast majority of CEOs, of executives are, are quite tall, right? And so there is this correlation between power and physical size.

So, but I do, but so there are two different dimensions that social psychologists talk about. So you can, you can pursue a pathway of dominance, right? So you can try and, you can try and, you know, exert, become, make people intimidated by your presence and threaten and all these things and bluster. And, but then there's the prestige aspect of it, right? So I want, and prestige really, again, it trades on value. Well, I— formidability and bigness, you know, that's also value in a certain way. But the idea is prestige. I want you to value me for the attributes and the skill sets that I have. And so, because that's a lot more stable, because if we can cement a relationship based on you valuing me for whatever skill set, that portfolio that you value, and I value you, then we're going to be able to engage in, you know, mutually cooperative of relationships versus dominance, which is that's short-lived, right? So the alpha, you have all the other, the down alphabet is gonna organize against the alpha and it's only a matter of time. And so, but prestige, however, is something that can be cultivated and maintained, I think is more durable. And so it's just a matter of strategies, right? So I'm not saying that if you are like Hulk, size that you're not the kindest, most cooperative person, right? And so, and I'm also not saying if you're the smallest person that you're not the biggest narcissist psychopath, right? So, and so I think that there are, there's very interesting individual differences and the history of what you come to know to be good strategies and what you're reinforced for throughout your development are things that are going to be really critical, but also So don't underestimate the power of, like, genetics and, like, your personality. And so how you were, how you were born, because that very much is, you know, that's what makes horse racing. The idea that we're all a little bit different. We all have a few different settings. We all calibrate a little bit differently, take different meanings from different inputs and so forth. And so, but based on all of that, I would say, so you are right in today's world. World, you know, in the boardroom, there are— but there's different strategies. You can sometimes see them playing out right in front of you, right? So, and the sparring is kind of fun to watch, as soon as, you know, you kind of— if as soon as you're tuned into that channel. But the idea, I do think that people are very aware of size, whether or not they don't need to address it, doesn't need to be used, or it can be something that's set aside. But it is something that gets into the system, just like if you had, you know, a boardroom of men and one woman, right? And so, and you make it a really beautiful woman, you know, you notice, right? And so, and then, and so whereas men are very con— not, I wouldn't say consciously concerned, but kind of keep tabs on and are aware of the other men in the, in the nearby vicinity and how big they are and what kind of threat level they might maintain, whether or not they're consciously aware of that or not, But I also think women, on the other hand, they're kind of thinking like, well, who's more attractive? Like, who's wearing what and who's getting more attention, right? So I mean, women have their side of the coin too, right? So, so that's another interesting sex difference. You know, women don't walk into the room being like, who can I take, right? No, it's like, you know, but you know who, you know, but women look around and it's like, you know, it's kind of this unspoken sisterhood language where it's just like, mm-hmm, let's go take her out.

I think that this is one of the challenges that so many men struggle with in modern culture is that how men historically— and maybe we could all go out on a limb and say, like, from an evolutionary standpoint— have learned to compete is vastly different from how women have learned how to compete and or how to, yeah, how to compete against one another. And I think that one of the main challenges that I see, especially in work environments but also relationally, is that men are oftentimes ill-equipped to compete with women and ill-equipped to play the game of like social status and, and reputation attacks and character assassinations or the he said, she said, or, you know, maintaining sometimes social cohesion or maintaining a narrative or a story that everyone's buying into, and this is the direction that we're going, and this is the sort of moral reason why we're doing that, or the ethical reason why we're doing that. I think sometimes men have a harder time with that. And maybe that's just my assessment, but I talk to a lot of men who are in work environments, whether they're in a corporate environment, just a work environment in general, and they're terrified. They are really, really genuinely fucking terrified. If I say the wrong thing, if I do the wrong thing, if I'm insinuated in the wrong way, like, I'm cooked, I'm done. And so it really seems like the, you know, the power dynamics within work environments have shifted quite a bit because, you know, before, you know, men had a tremendous amount of power and they could get away with a bunch of shit. And that wasn't good either. But it seems like the, you know, pendulums have sort of, have sort of swung. And there's just a lot of men that are like, I don't know what's socially acceptable or okay for me to do. And what strategies to even deploy within my corporate environment? And because it seems like I'm just supposed to, you know, be a good boy and be quiet. So any thoughts on that?

Oh, tons. But I don't want to get canceled. So let's see. I don't think men have it easy today. I think that if, if I were a, if I were a man and I, and I was at the end of my career and I saw what was happening, I'd look around and go, what the fuck? Where the hell is this? What is going on? Like, really, what is going on? You're not allowed to be different. Everyone has to be the same. I mean, maybe it started with the generation of everyone gets a trophy, right? So the idea is you're not allowed to actually be great. You're not allowed to be different than anyone else. And if you suck, you're still great. And I gotta tell you, that's not America. That's not America. I'm— there you go. That's my, that's my cancelable line right there. I think that, you know, that what makes, what makes America great is the possibility of being able to pull ahead and to achieve. Now, I don't think it should be done at the expense of exploiting and intentionally manipulating and cheating and lying. I do not. And I think it can be done without doing those kinds of things. Um, and I, I know there's a range of personalities that would disagree with me just to say like, hey, it's, you know, free good luck. Um, but by and large, this culture of, you know, pronouns and you can't call—

oh my God, like, oh, well, it seems, it seems like we've moved away from a set of meritocratic way of existing, that, that, um, merit-based effort and the ways in which you like exceptionalism doesn't seem to matter.

And who does that benefit? Who does that benefit? The non-exceptional, right? And so it's benefiting. So the idea is, I don't— who in the world is motivated and puts together the coalition to take down people who are achieving? It's the people who can't achieve, right? And so, I mean, that's just kind of— that's, that's 101. It's like, if I can't do it, then you don't get to do it either, and I'm going to tear you down one way or another.

Well, I think, I think that brings me into like, I know we have to wrap up soon, so I almost hesitate to open up this can of worms, but I think that brings me into like your, the big piece of your, your work around disgust, because it does seem that disgust has become culturally normalized as something that you should deploy, as something that you can utilize as a tool, as a weapon. As, you know, as a form of compliance. I mean, it's so common online now. It's like, I'm disgusted by your behavior. That's disgusting. And it's almost always deployed as a means of, I'm going to get you to comply to my way of seeing the world or behaving in a way that I want. I see this happening in relationships all the time. So why the hell did we evolve to have disgust? I mean, obviously don't eat the disgusting meat or mushrooms or, you know, fungus or like whatever. Whatever it is that's going to make you sick and die, that part makes real sense, right? But why would we evolve to have disgust be an emotional response to one another?

Oh, that's such a good question. So do we have a few more minutes? Can I? Yes, please do. Okay. So disgust looks like it evolved exactly what you said. So it evolved for the main functions of preventing us from eating things that were contaminated, right? But it also prevents us from touching things that are going to make us sick and harmful. It also plays a role in our own sexual preferences, keeping us away from people that we find disgusting, right? And so there's good biological reasons for that. So for instance, mating with close genetic relatives is, you know, typically incites sexual aversion and so forth. And that's disgust— keeps you away from mating with someone that if you had had children with them would have produced children who are far less fit, less healthy, and so forth. So that's a whole other story. But the question is, given these three functions of kind of consumption and contact and sex, How in the world does disgust get into— make this huge jump into not only do I find it disgusting, but therefore it's disgusting for you and everyone else needs to not do it? Like, how does it jump that, you know, jump that fence? And so that comes down to the idea that we are— we're a coalitional species and we compete for resources. So if you want to talk about male psychology for a second, um, so, so Coalitional psychology is definitely something I think both genders have, but certainly, to be sure, it's far more active in males because males were the ones putting together coalitional kind of, uh, collective actions— warfare, hunting, and so forth. Not to say that females don't have that, and certainly some men don't. Some females are hyperactive on all that, so it has a lot to do with kind of how your systems are organized and hormones and stuff like this. But in general, squint and you get men more than women. So men are competing for resources, right? That's just— and the reason why men compete for resources is because the, you know, animal kingdom-wide, males compete. Males are trying to acquire resources because females are selecting males based on their ability to acquire resources and give them to her in order to invest in offspring, right? So males are choosing females that are fertile and have signs of nubility and being able to have children. Females in many other species are looking at males to determine whether or not they have the resources or the ability to kind of, you know, have the territory and access to what females need in order to raise their offspring. How does that get translated into humans? I mean, in a variety of ways, right? So yes, so men are now looking for younger, cuter women, big boobs, big butts, but, you know, nice hourglass figures. But by and large, you know, even if you're like, I'm not that type of guy, yes, okay, fine. But you are still looking for signs of health and fertility. So things that kind of cue youth, and everyone's got a different kind of set of, you know, a different sweet spot. But by and large, youthful characteristics are more desirable. So females are looking for males who have access to resources. And in our world, that translates to money. So the signal of it, so it's a poor signal these days, right? Like, but that's a whole maybe a different podcast. So, but the idea that females are looking for resources, males are motivated to acquire resources and defend resources. Now you take that into the kind of group level, the idea that men can gang up and form higher, more leveraged, more powerful coalitions in order to obtain those resources. So one, you know, one-on-one, you know, you can kind of have two males kind of duke it out for, you know, a pile of, you know, berries or whatever, you know, patch of land. But then as soon as we have the ability to coordinate and form groups, I can out-leverage you by getting, you know, all my friends. And so now, now you're in trouble. And so even chimps are very sensitive to these, these numbers. So it ends up that male chimps will patrol the boundary And so the work of Jane Goodall, Richard Wrangham, and some really interesting studies find that males know how— they know their numbers. I don't think— I don't— can't tell you chimps know how to count, but somehow they are able to infer based on the number of voices they hear whether or not the number of males that they're currently with outnumber or undernumber what they're hearing. And if they outnumber them, if they only hear— if there are 3 males walking around patrolling and they hear 1 lone male, they will close in very quickly. If there's 5 of them and there's 2 males that they hear, they will close in very quickly. So they have these kind of interesting military ratios already built in. I should say, we got our military ratios from a long evolutionary history, but knowing what counts as leverage in coalitional terms. So if you take this kind of resource acquisition— I'll get back to disgust because it comes right back to it— which is you take the psychology of resource acquisition, defense, Combine that with the idea of this coalitional psychology of being able to coordinate for the purpose of ganging up to acquire these resources. Now, now we're into another whole nother realm. And so how is it that I can help coordinate people as to what to go after, what resources to go after? And other groups of people are potential competitors for those types of resources. And so Who am I going to go after? Am I going to go after my family? No, they're high social value to me, right? And so remember the term, the whole concept of social value. There's a whole totem pole of social value. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna coordinate a coalition to go get my friends and take them out. That would be insane, right? And so, but who, who do I want to take out? Who, who do I want to preclude from getting resources? I want the people who I have low social value for. And so enter disgust. Disgust is a signal that tells you the things, the qualities that you find of low social value. So the kinds of foods that you find disgusting, the kinds of things that people touch that you find disgusting, the kind of mates that people mate with that you find disgusting. These are all kinds of behaviors that basically can cause you to say, I detect that to be of low social value. And you'd be like, that's disgusting, right? And then all you're doing is waiting to hear, anyone agree? 'Right, so y'all with me?' Because if you heard— if you were like— I mean, you can imagine going into a crowd and be like, 'That's disgusting,' and everyone turned to look at you. You'd be like, 'Oh, that's bad.' Like, you're done, right? But if instead everyone was like, 'Yeah, let's get them,' right? And so— but the idea that disgust is a way of coordinating, it's a nice kind of rally cry. And so disgust does a couple of things. So first, it's an internal diagnostic of the kinds of things and behaviors that you find of low value, that it's, that it would be, you know, it wouldn't cost you much to go after. You wouldn't be going after something, a benefit that you enjoyed in the world, right? And so, you know, it, you can imagine, you know, like heterosexual men saying, let's go get those 21, 20, 19-year-old girls, let's get rid of them. It's like, no, that's not, that's not the, you know, like maybe, I don't know, actually maybe I shouldn't say that. I mean, there's a whole group of people who maybe are upset with, with women these days, but the whole idea is like, like the nubile women are not the group of women that tend to get attacked, at least not first, right? So it's the ones that are, you know, over, you know, past their reproductive age potentially and making noise, you know, and so.

Barons.

Exactly, and so, but the idea is that, so your internal level of disgust can be a nice kind of readout as to what you wouldn't mind going after. But then you hear other people say they're disgusted, you actually collect the information, that's information now, This is what this person wants to go after, right? This is the rally cry that they want. But then you can use disgust as a shield, right? So you've had politicians who are gay who are like, "That gay homosexuality is disgusting," and this and that. And it's like, basically they're saying, you know, "Take your sights off of me and put your crosshairs on someone else." And so whether it's effective or not, you know, time will always tell. But I think that disgust can be used So disgust isn't the only emotion that can be used as value. So you can use fear, right? But fear— disgust is sticky, right? So it's hard to rinse oneself of disgust, the ick, right? So it's hard to kind of get rid of that. And so the idea that you have— the idea that you have— sorry, that was me. But you have people who you determine their social value, who you're going to be motivated to coordinate against. And that's where disgust comes into the picture.

Yeah. I mean, it seems to be way more commonplace than it was when I was growing up, you know, and maybe we, maybe we have a different conversation, another, like a 2.0 of this, because I feel like we just started to scratch the surface on this part. And I find it to be very fascinating because I do think that the level and the intensity to which disgust has started to enter in to our social conversations, relationships, social media, etc., I think it's really having a net negative impact on relationships, on intimate relationships, because people are so quick to move to this, like, I'm disgusted by that person because they voted for this person, disgusted by that person because they said this thing. I'm just, you know, it's, it's, it's such an interesting thing. And obviously it's always been a part of us. Anyway, we're going to pause there. Tell people where they can go and find your work. We'll have the links for in the show notes, but where can they find out more about your work and what is it you're up to?

So deblieberman.com is a list of some of the work, some of the other, some of the articles and so forth. That's probably the best place to point people.

Beauty. Well, we'll have that in the show notes. Go check it out. Deb's work is awesome, as I'm sure that you know of. After this conversation. Deb, thank you so much for joining me. And for everybody that's out there, don't forget to man it forward. Share this podcast with somebody that you know is going to enjoy it, that you can have a conversation with, that you can get into it with. So, um, until next week, as always, Connor Beaton signing off.