What Women Don't Understand About Men, with Alison Armstrong

All right, Allison, welcome to the podcast. Welcome to the ManTalks show. How are you doing today?

I am froggy and I'm glad to be here.

Wonderful, wonderful. Well, hopefully the gods of the internet allow us to, uh, to have this conversation. We'll see how our tech holds up. Um, but let's just, let's just start a little broad. What's, what do you think the most dangerous lie men are being told about women right now when it comes to dating and relationships? Because there's a lot of terrible advice out there, in my opinion. So what do you think is the most dangerous lie, the biggest lie that men are being told about women right now?

Wow, when you said that, Connor Beaton, I'm like, what are men being told about women? I don't even— I don't know what you guys are being told. I know what women tell each other. I know— oh my gosh, can I just tell you what I think is the biggest lie about relationships that causes the most trouble? Okay, I assert the biggest lie about relationships is that there is such a thing. That's, that's, that's where the trouble begins, is that we think, like, say if you and I, you know, we kept doing this or we chatted outside of this or whatever, the normal concept would be that there's a relationship growing between us, right? There's you and there's me, and then there's this thing that's happening between us and And the problem with it is people actually think there is a thing, almost like a safety deposit box, and all the hard or terrible things that happen are kept there and have to be visited from time to time and might be discovered by other people, but they have some existence, right? And we also think that that all the love and affection and care that passes between us is also stored in the safety deposit box and that we can count on it to get us through the hard parts. And— but we also think we have to overcome these things, that something happens, we're going to have to keep overcoming and keep overcoming it. So there's this belief in the persistence of relationships. And we have all ways of describing it and generalizing it. Like, this is, you know, our relationship's been rocky, our relationship's been really easy, our relationship has been a nightmare. We even describe these things like they have these qualities. And since the beginning, even before the beginning of studying Ren in 1991, I have relied upon the dictionary for guidance. And when I started studying men and realized Merriam-Webster— Merriam is not a woman. The dictionary is literally man talk. That's what the dictionary is. And, you know, now we have like dictionary.com and so it's getting— there's some wobbly stuff showing up in there. But I tell women, if you want to know what a man means, look in the dictionary. And so I was creating a workshop on relationships, on marriage and relationships. So I looked up relationships in the dictionary expecting to find a definition that fit, you know, some of the description I just gave you. And instead it said It's at an instance of being related. What? Like an instance of being related, which is different than a moment. You know, whatever we do today, that could be qualified as an instance. But there's no such thing as a relationship. Which is why we struggle to be good at them. We're trying to be good at something that doesn't exist. But if we break it down to instances of being related, which I think like an engineer, so I'm always breaking things down and seeing how we can put it back together better. If we look at in an instance of being related, what can we actually control? And that's probably one of the other just a bunch of baloney that's fed to everyone. We normally strategize. We're strategizing in order to control the other person's reactions, behavior, responses. How can we strategize to cause them to do? Cause them to give, cause them to be how we want them to be. And we can't. We can't. And people hate that news, except for the good news is no one can control you, right? You can't control them and they can't control you. We can only manage ourselves, really. And And then I broke it down further. So, so what's happening in those instances, instances of being related that we can control? Well, a lot of people like want to rewrite it. Instances of relatedness, right? Instances of relationship. The being is actually the most important word because that's the first and biggest thing that we have a say in. How are we being? And for example, women don't know that when they're being distrustful, when they're being afraid, when they're being on guard, when they're being distrustful, they don't know the effect that that has on men and that it that it doesn't cause men to lean in, which is what women want the most. We want you to lean into us, and but the way we're being with you puts you back on your heels, you know, and, and sometimes causes even bigger reactions to that. It, it's their survival reactions to how women are being. We're often, besides being all that, we're also on the attack, which is how I was when I found out I was a frog farmer. I practiced the best defense is a good offense. And so I was like, hi Connor, hand me your testicles and then we'll talk. Let's just get this part over. Just give it on over. I'm going to take your power one way or another because I'm I'm scared of you and I've got to do something to fix how scary you are to me. Which, when I told my husband that I was afraid of him, he cried. Burly, burly motorcycle riding, you know, convertible driving CPA tough guy, he cried. That I would be afraid of him? What could he possibly have done that I'd be afraid of him? He was a man. And so this being, how are we being? And then so much of my work is about how do we cause being? What affects how we're being? How can we heal and release and restore ourselves from injury, wounds, shame, disempowering conclusions, so that we're more free to be who we want to be? And then how do we literally install in our bodies the ways of being that we're committed to? Because what's already installed in these bodies is our instincts, and they're powerful, and they react. So fast. Bill Harris of Holocene taught that lizard brain is always at least a split second before the prefrontal cortex for executive decision-making. And so we can develop an awareness, right, of like, literally it's an impulse that pushes us forward to do something to protect ourselves, to do something to try to take advantage of an opportunity while risking the least, right? All these survival behaviors. But we can actually affect how we're being. And 6 months into studying men, when it was pointed out to me by the only woman whose life I envied that I was emasculating men, that I was interacting with men in this way that was unconscious and that I was hurting men, that I was diminishing men. And I didn't know I was. I thought I was just managing you scary people. And she asked me to stop. Stop. She said, Alison, I want you to cut it out, which reminded me of Prince of Thieves. You want me to cut my heart out with a spoon? And my reaction was, but how will I protect myself? And then I got to see— I had this moment, thank goodness for these moments, of seeing that What I was really afraid of is how powerful men are. And so that's why I would steal it immediately, like siphon it out, steal it, cut it off from you, squish it, do everything I could to disempower you. And that when I succeeded at that, I experienced glee and relief. So there's like this Hahaha! Right? Like I'd overcome an enemy, right? And this relief, okay, I'm safe. Okay, I'm safe. He's— I call it the testosterone meter. You have an acceptable level of testosterone in you right now. You are manageable and I'm safe. But I saw that as long as I was stealing power from men, and I could expand it now from anyone— that I would never know my own. And that every time I did what I did, while I had this glee and relief, it reinforced the fear of my own weakness. Terror, right? And it— and it— I mean, it ended up proving useful in life, right? It's been 30— jeez, 1991, 35 years since I, you know, I thought I'd take 2 or 3 months to learn everything worth knowing about these shallow, superficial, feelingless, potentially soulless creatures. I really thought that. I'm sorry. I It's just been so helpful. I've been my biggest guinea pig because I assume that I'm normal. And it's been so helpful to see it in other people when they are attacking, that they're afraid. And to not take it personally that they're afraid, that, oh, they're afraid, and have compassion. And with that compassion, I can lean in. And it's my desire. Have you read or listened to The Queen's Code?

I have, yeah. I mean, it was years ago, but I did.

Okay, well, I recommend listening to the audiobook because I didn't write The Queen's Code. I did all the research that backs up everything in it, but when it came time to write it, A movie started playing and I started typing. I typed that whole book in 3 weeks. And in the audiobook, which I don't let anybody do my audiobooks— Keys to the Kingdom is the same way. It was— it also was a movie, right? It was the precursor to The Queen's Code. And so in the audiobooks, I'm recreating the movie, the tone, the energy, the emotion that I witnessed that had me in tears as I was typing or had me cracking up as I was typing. And the purpose of the book was to transform the way women relate to men. I had no idea that it would affect how men relate to themselves. And, and it's my biggest joy is that through The Queen's Code, a man has the possibility of seeing that behind that dragon that's being presented, or the ice queen that may be in front of me, that if you look in those eyes, there's terror behind them. And there's probably also frustration. There's fear and frustration because we don't know how to get what we need from you. Just as men don't know how to get what they need from women. And, and the assumption is that we can't, that the person doesn't want to give me what I need. The person— I thought men were actively withholding what I needed. We don't know that the other person doesn't know what I need. And they might be trying very hard and failing to give me what they've decided I need for lack of better information. I will pause there. But being— how are we being and what is causing us to be in this way that we're interacting with each other as adversaries that we need to get them to do something. And anytime a woman says, so how do I, how do I use what you've taught me to get a man to? Well, first of all, as soon as you think you're trying to get a man to do something, that is not my work. Yeah. And you, if you use my work to try to get a man to do something, you'll end up worse off because they're so much smarter than you think. And they can see manipulation from a mile away. And if you think they're stupid because they fall for it, no, they're not. They've just decided the transaction is worth it.

Yep. Yep. Fair enough. I mean, I think this is the— there's so many threads to pull on there. I think the one, like, the one thread is really the misconception of the simplicity of men. And I think that, you know, sometimes we can have simplistic needs or wants relationally, but being simplistic beings, I think, is an inaccurate statement. And then I think, you know, as I've interacted more and more with men and their wives or the girlfriends, I interacted more and more. My wife is a marriage and family therapist, and so we do a lot of work together with couples. Yes, you'll usually rope me in when, you know, there's like a man that's, you know, that's a little challenging or combative or, you know, that like needs an extra, you know, she just needs like the Connor touch, right? And so, so I think, you know, needs like the, the big dude to come in. Um, and because I— like, the ongoing joke in, in my company is like, I'm like the man whisperer, you know? Like, I can make almost any man cry, um, and, and access what's going on inside of him even if he know it's happening. But it seems like there is a perception that is held more and more by a lot of women that is maybe unconscious to what you're saying, right? Which is, I need to disempower you in some way for me to be powerful in the relationship. I need to disempower a man, or, uh, not, not directly but I need to disempower a man in some way in order to hold the power or be safe or find safety or have some level of control. And that seems to be more commonplace. And I think it's interesting because I heard this saying the other day that— I think I said it on the show— is that many, many women have been taught and trained to become the men that they want to be with. And so there's not a lot of space for the man that they actually you know, the type of man that they want to date and be with. And then on the men's side, it seems like many men are sort of running around like chickens with their heads cut off being like, okay, I'm going to try this method, I'm going to try that method. She says she wants this, I'm going to do that. And they're like, I don't even— like nothing seems to work. I don't know what's working and how do I make this work? And so, it seems like both sides are just kind of throwing their hands up in the air and being like, fuck it, this is useless. And so, everybody's kind of giving up. You see men going their own way. You've got MGTOW and then you've got the female version of that. And what's funny is how many people wear it as a badge of honor, like you should be afraid that women are checking out of relationships or you should be really worried that men are. It's like, no. You know, no, no, no, we should not be advocating for hating the other sex. Like, what the hell's going on? All right, guys, really quick aside. First off, thank you so much for tuning in to the show and to the channel. If you are wanting to go deeper, if you're a man that's working on himself in some way, shape, or form, you're wanting to be more self-led, you want to trust yourself more, you want to have a deeper level of self-worth, or maybe you're looking to improve your relationship, then I encourage you to check out the ManTalks Alliance. You can go to mantalks.com/alliance. We have over 1,000 men in this incredible community from around the world, men who are just like you, working to better themselves, to be a better husband, a better father, a better leader in your own life. So check it out, mantalks.com/alliance. So anyway, to come back to what I wanted to, the thread that I really wanted to pull on there. It really sounds like safety directs a lot of women's choices and behaviors relationally. And I was hoping that you can give some context to why that might be, how that might show up, so that a man listening to this can start to understand, like, where are some of these behaviors coming from? Because I think a lot of times we personalize that. You know, we see that behavior and it's like, shit, I'm doing something wrong, or I said something wrong, or I've missed something. And that gets personalized as a man.

Well, something I just would tinker with in your speaking is you said directs women's choices. The problem is the absence of choice. So freedom, which is my highest value, and what I'm here, hopefully, to have people end up with a whole lot more of— the definition that I ascribe to is the power to choose. And women are compelled by a concern for physical safety. And, and we're afraid to be hurt. We're afraid to be hurt, and which is very different than men. So we're afraid to be hurt, and we're not afraid to die, and we're not present to death. We're afraid the people who we count on to protect us from being hurt will die, protect us from starving to death. We're afraid they will die. But we're afraid to be mentally hurt, emotionally hurt, spiritually, physically most of all. And I assert that the foundation of that is that we are so much smaller and physically weaker than men. And even if we were the same size, testosterone makes your muscles so much smaller than mine. And Aye, aye, aye. On our website, there's a free sample of about half an hour from our Understanding Women workshop, where we're having the men in the workshop that's recorded experience how much stronger they are than women and the basis of our fear of you. And it's It's ancestral. So we could have a life where we would never— that a man never hurt us, never grabbed us by any part of our body and made us go somewhere we didn't, or just scared us by how you could crush our wrist. You literally could just crush it with your hand. And we could have never had anything. And yet we would still be afraid of you hurting me. It goes back so far.

Can I, can I ask a quick question on this? Because there's something that I don't understand about modern culture. And, and if you don't want to get into this, like, please just say. But I think the one of the really confusing things that seems to be against this desire for safety is like the modern narrative that there are no sex differences, that there, that there isn't a difference in sex between men and women physically. And that this is sort of— this has started to become more and more— I don't know if accepted is the right word, but sort of commonplace in certain areas of culture and society. And I wonder, like, how does that benefit anybody to pretend that there's no differences between the sexes? Like, it would seem to me like that just has a net negative downstream effect on women, you know? And, and it seems to me that it would encroach on women's safety downstream at some point. And yet it seems to be largely women that that are maybe not perpetuating, might not be the right word, but are allowing for that idea to take more hold in modern culture and society because—

Yeah.

And so, I'm very confused about— I'm like, why would— we can see, we know that testosterone makes men bigger. We know that it makes men's muscles larger and stronger. We know— I mean, there's been study about punching power. A man that's 140 pounds and a woman that's 140 pounds, he's going to be able to punch 40% to 60% harder even if he's not trained. Men will lift more, men are faster. I mean, it's just you can go down all of the data and part of that, I mean, it's just unequivocally a biological thing that is different in the sexes. And so, why on earth would anybody want to try and negate what we can see, calculate, measure, et cetera? What is that? I'm very confused by it.

Oh, boy. I encountered this a lot. And what's interesting about your framing of things like women lately, right? We started our workshops in 1995. How you're describing women They have been. They have been. And since I was born in 1960, I was there in the crush of Barbie dolls and feminism. I was squished in between. So my mother survived through her beauty and being kettish and flirtatious. She led with sexual energy and modeled that for me. And with no idea— and women don't know this, we, we don't know that when we lead with sexual energy, we're appealing to the most primitive part. And this is in any species, not just human beings.

Right.

Yeah. Procreate overrides protect, overrides provide.

It's not just men, it's also the bears.

It's also the bears. It's also the beetles. It's a pine tree. Every species risks its life to procreate. And so You have to— we have to go back a little bit farther, okay? That even in first world countries, women were property. We were property up even into the 1900s. I was there when my mother celebrated that she could get her own credit card without her husband husband's signature. It was huge that we could get— we could buy a house without our father or our brother or husband signing for us. I'm talking late 1960s. And, and what, what was often used against us, if you will, the justification for our limitations was that we're weak, that our minds are weak, our emotions are so unreliable, and we're of weak character because of our emotions and our feelings. So we're physically weak, we're intellectually weak, we're weak, and we need to be protected, and we need You to decide how to protect us because you would know better. Because I mean, the YMCA in the early 1900s considered women too stupid to learn to type. They were not allowed into the typing classes that were happening since the invention of the typewriter, training men to type, and women wanted to learn, and oh, women couldn't. Possibly do this. So this, this, we're the same as you, is an effort to be, we're as good as you, we're as smart as you, we are strong in our own way. And if I can't punch as hard, by golly, I'm gonna get a gun. So it's, it's just all part of this This not— you have to think of it in terms of just pure survival instincts and the lack of awareness that we have two nervous systems. We really do have two nervous systems. You could think of it as instinct and spirit if you wanted to. I've called it human animal and human spirit, but I've seen too many ways we behave that, as we were just talking about, aren't human. So much more primitive than that. Our immune systems, our immune systems are as old as life showing up on this planet. It's that primitive, just distinguishing, are you me or not me? A sneeze is a not-me response. We're sneezing at each other all the time. So, so it's this— none of this is personal. And women think that you as a man, if you didn't invent this paradigm, you for sure are a perpetrator of the patriarchy. Now I've been trying to find the patriarchy. Women want to engage with me in the patriarchy. And yes, I will talk about the patriarchy. If you'll also talk about the matriarchy, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

If you'll talk about both of those in these two different teams endlessly at battle, when actually, if you look more closely, we're literally built to complement. We literally have complementary strengths. And, and the thing that came out— I'm working on the sequel to The Queen's Code, right? Which means I'm having to open myself up to see things I've never seen before. And one of the first things that was shown to me is, is this conflict we're having because men are consciously and unconsciously seeking complementary strength. Always complementary strength. You have your own assessment of your weaknesses, pretty darn honest about it, near as I can tell. And you're looking for complementary strength, whether it's in a business partner or a mate. And, and then you, when you meet a woman who has the strengths that you know you don't have, that causes admiration. That causes like, wow, how far could I go if she was on my team, right? I would be so much better off with her than without her. Yeah, she can, she can be icy. Yeah, she can lash out. Yes, she has that emotional thing. Yes, she has those things, but it's worth it because— and But men don't know, and this is something I just articulated recently, is that because of our fear, right? Because of we don't actually understand the source of our real power, we are looking for a man who's stronger than us. In the way that I am strong. Like, for me, it would be a man who's more logical, a man who's even more curious and delving into, a man who can pack a car better than the puzzle solver can, right? I want you to be strong like me. But stronger. And, and now, not knowing that I'm now igniting competition. Sameness is one of the ingredients of competition. And if admiration is scarce, the competition for admiration, right? But if women knew you— we're now making you wrong and judging you. For not being as strong as me, not knowing you picked me, knowing I'm stronger than you in that way. And you want to—

that's totally— I mean, yeah, I mean, I think it's— I think what you're saying is, is great because as you were talking, I was like, that's totally how I chose my wife, right? It's like this complementary opposite, you know, that fills in the gaps. It's also how I picked my COO, um, who's also a woman. And it's like, I have these gifts, I have these strengths, and there are things that I lack in that I fundamentally don't want to do, but I know are necessary to build a business or a family or whatever it is. And then in some ways it was like, go out and procure those things. And so I think that that's largely true, that the majority of men are looking for that complementary opposite that is going to support them in going further and faster. That's certainly been the case in my life. Like, it's worked exceptionally well. My life has changed radically because of this. And what you're saying, I have also experienced in my life where my wife is, like, wanting me to outstrength her in her strengths. And I've set boundaries around that. I'm like, no, that's not a me thing. That's a you thing. That's for you to do.

This is your strength.

This is your role you bring to the table. You want the house to look this way, like, power to you. You do that. You know, she really values like beholderism and how things look. And, you know, when we started dating, I had a mattress on the floor, like we couldn't be further apart. I don't give a shit about how things necessarily look. Unless it's my car, then I really care. But that's, you know, that's kind of about it. And so it's, I think to a large extent it's true. You said something. Go ahead.

Go ahead. May I insert one more thing before we go there? So what makes this even worse?

Oh, great.

Yes. Is that when you think about someone that you admire, what do you crave the most from the person that you admire. I assert it's that they admire you. Yeah. Now, a woman would say that they love you. So we keep trying to tell you and show you how much we love you while demonstrating over and over again that we do not admire you.

Awesome.

And we wonder why you don't want to marry me. But I love you. Yeah, but I feel like crap around you because you're always competing and always showing me up and pointing out my weaknesses to other people. You betray me at every turn and you want me to sign up for a life of this? Why would I do that? But women don't know this. Right? We— since we don't know you picked us for being different, not like you, and that you admire how we're not like you, and what you want most from us is that we admire for how you're strong in a different way that I am. Yay! I'm so much better off with you. And one of the ways you actually spoke about it earlier, that it shows up in your life, is when your wife calls on The Connor Effect, right? There's even a name for it. Oh, we need Connor. Well, that's like every man's favorite thing when someone they admire says, oh, we need him. You need me? You need me? What do you want me to do? What do you want to do with your strength? If you're not under attack and therefore protecting yourself, You overflow as providing. What else can I do? What else can I do? What else can I do? Wow, she let me do that and she appreciated it. What else could I do for her? Well, in this swing of feminism, my mother dancing around the kitchen, "Anything you can do, I can do better." I don't know if you're familiar with that song. Oh, yes. Yeah. So that's what I thought. So I got the message, Alison, you have to have a man. So you have to get a man, you have to have a man, you have to make him act right so he doesn't make you look bad, but never need him. Never need him for anything. And women have this thing in their head, but I can do that. 'But I can do that,' and it comes out of our mouth, right? You know, 'Would you like me to carry this out to the car? I can do that,' because we think you offered because you thought we couldn't do it or that you could do it better. That was one of the biggest shocks listening to men like, 'Hello, you obviously got your bags to the airport. You must have opened tens of thousands of doors in your life.' Yeah, but it's a show of respect. It's a show of admiration. I want to do something for you. And one man put it so brilliantly. He said, I want to do everything I can for my wife so that she can be what I could never be. Which then goes back to this thing of what I started with about if all our instances are being related, the first thing to pay attention to is how are we being related? And it's how women can be that men are the most in awe of. And yet we don't know it. So we're trying to show you up in the doing department when what you revere are these qualities that literally occur as magical, mystical.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting because what you're describing is, for me at least, it's the— it's almost like this misinterpretation. I see all these reels online from women be like, what do men want? And it's like, well, this, you know, like, this is what a lot of men want, you know, exactly what you're describing. And I— it's, it's funny because as you were talking, I was kind of chuckling internally because my wife is by nature a very competitive person, and so am I. And, you know, in our— it's— we're both very stubborn. Like, I wrote this poem for our wedding called Two Stubborn Hearts, and it was about how the two of us were, you know, a match made in stubborn-ass heaven. And now we're gonna— that we're gonna raise stubborn-ass kids, uh, we are being success— we're successfully doing that right now. Uh, they're beautiful. Smart, very independent, high-agency children, just like us.

Yes.

And, um, and but it was interesting because when we first started dating, she would try and compete with me around things. And, and I was, I was like, I'm not doing that. I'm not interested in this. I don't want to compete with you. If I wanted to compete, I'll go compete with a buddy of mine, or, you know, I'll go join a league and do that. You know, like, I'm not in a relationship to compete with you. And I think for her, it was really befuddling, if I could use that word. It was very confusing at first because I think most of the men that she dated, she could coax them into competition. And, and I think it's part of the reason why it provided this kind of safety mechanism, because she's very good at a lot of things. She's very, very competent and capable and competitive. And so I think, you know, one of the things— what's that?

Sorry, if I just could say this. Yeah. Women think that men are intimidated by how strong we are, by how smart we are, by how capable we are. And, and I know instinctually, you are going to mate with the strongest, most capable, most competent woman that you believe you can attract and keep. If you think you can attract her but not keep her because you can't give her what she really needs, no, why sign up for that, right? Right. You think you can attract and keep your— it's just smart, right? It's just from a survival point of view, it's the thing to do. And you're not intimidated by our strength. That what women don't know, that what turns men off is that, "Let me give you something you need." Like, you just want to be able to contribute to us. And it's like, if you don't need anything from me, I'll go find someone who does. But we honestly think, and this is like, oh, it's tragic. We think that if I can prove to you I don't need you, I will become more attractive to you. As wrong as you can be. As wrong as you can be. Now, I don't need to tell the other two things that we can control in those instances of being related, but I just want to put a pin in There are two other things, and, and the next one is so powerful in this area, if I can bring it in. But you wanted to say something. You want to go ahead with what you wanted, where you wanted to go?

No, I was— all I was going to say was that me, where we want to call it setting a boundary or not engaging with that, and, you know, I learned very quickly that our relationship worked and flourished when I did not engage with the competition because it was like, oh, I want you to take care of this thing that I really— I want you to kind of compete with me in this way. But then there was lots of criticisms and how come you didn't do it this way and what happened there? And then it would create tension in the relationship. And, when I stepped back and I was like, "Look, I'm not competing with you and this doesn't feel good and I'm not interested in that," and I would set boundaries around it, our whole dynamic just unfolded. And, it was funny because there was this one— I won't tell the story, but there was this one instance where I set a boundary around something and she was like, "That's the first time I've ever felt like a man has in a very grounded way put a boundary up with me where I could hear it, I could receive it, I could be affected by it." And so, yeah, I think it's interesting because I will always say to men, like, stop competing. Like, find the ways that she's unintentionally or inadvertently trying to compete with you for things and then build some structure around that and some agreements and unplug from it.

Oh my gosh. Well, can I tell you the thing that happens in our nervous system when you set a boundary? Without anger.

Yes, please.

Because it— without anger is really important because the anger terrifies us and now we're just pure reaction. When you set a boundary just as a fact, we perceive that as a strength that can protect me from everything I'm afraid of, including myself. You can protect me from myself, my own worst enemy, my own nonsense, my own taking things personally that are not personally, right, personal. Or even this thing of thinking I need to compete with you instead of No, we can live in peace. We can complement each other. We can, you know, partner dancing is a perfect metaphor because both people literally have to hold their space for movement and beauty to happen. And if you cave, we're terrified when you cave to us. We're, we're so afraid because now we're left with even more accountability, and we take up accountability like, like, like we pick up socks, right? We just, you know, to try to take control and accountability of everything, and we're exhausted. And, and do I— if I have to be accountable for how our relationship goes as well, aye yi yi, I've been there before. But when you're saying No, this is my part. That is your part. And it's one of the most important questions to ask. What's my part? Or, and even of everything, Connor, there's something I need from you. If you're willing to provide it for me, what's my part? What do you need from me to give you, to give me what I'm asking for? Just that sentence. And believing the other person's answer. Like, most men will say, "I need you to remind me." We think that's ridiculous. If I have to remind you, then what's the point? But it's because women don't understand how single focus works, that the moment you commit, your mind screens out everything irrelevant to what you're working on. So there's no placeholder in some corner of your brain for that thing that you said you would do moments before you committed to this destination or goal. We don't know that. And, and women also don't know that it's good news when what you need, you're in charge of the initiation of. That's awesome. You don't have to wait for him to initiate. It's like early on, I was living in my boyfriend's backyard. I was like, I, all the ways I'm trying to initiate sex with you aren't working. How can I have more sex? And he just goes, well, just tell me you want to. And then I'd still get my knickers in a twist. Do you know it's been 3 days? Oh wait, I can have sex whenever I want to. I just have to ask. And he has proven that that is true. I just have to ask. But it's true for everyone. Just ask me. I will if I can. And then you have to add to that, hopefully, because when you guys do this, it's terrifying to us. I will if I can without sacrificing myself. That's what we need the most from you, that you are yourself, that you're grounded, you're resting in yourself, meaning your values, your dream for your— our life, right? Your intentions. When you're resting in that, Now I can sort out me. When you're trying to adapt to me to please me while I'm trying to please you, what a lot of mush, right? We both have to hold our space, and sometimes we're providing and sometimes we're receiving, and being able to have that in a dance, because as soon as I ask you for something, I'm the receiver. But as soon as you tell me what you need from me to do it, I'm now the provider. Well, this can be a gorgeous upward spiral, but it requires clarity and appreciation and clarity and appreciation and clarity and appreciation. It's a stairway to heaven. We just don't know. We— most of our behavior, I would assert, originates before language existed in humans, that when we could, we had to anticipate what the other person needed because we couldn't ask and they couldn't tell. And then, and now what we don't know rules is, and it's part of our instincts to conceal, for men to conceal anything that can be used against you. For women to conceal anything that would be found unattractive, because we think being attractive 100% of the time is what's going to have you protect me 100% of the time. Hmm. Okay, I paused myself. You can tell I get really wound up about this. It's so not personal.

I know, I know. It's It's, it's, I think it's interesting because it's fascinating how often relational breakdown happens when men are trying to get things right or make things work within the context of a relationship, and then it just causes chaos, you know. Um, but I want to come back to the pin. Let's come back to the, the pin. You said that there was two more things, one of them extremely powerful. Take it away.

Okay, well, the extremely powerful one is not the third one, but the third matters. The third is, what are you speaking to? What are you speaking for? What is the intention or the point of your speaking? And men don't know that so much of women's speaking The point is safety. And that silence is scary to us at an instinctual level. Women know someone always has to be talking to shoo the critters, to have the danger move away from us as we move into the meadow. And so being silent is like, we'll talk and talk and then we'll go, okay, It's his turn. And we think when we stop talking, you'll start talking and you don't. And after, we're like, oh crap, I got to carry this whole thing. It's like this burden that we think we have to carry. And most of instinctual speaking has a lot to do with being accepted and to to positioning status, to position it where we want to position it, either to try to increase it or play it down, right? Because it can be used against us. And so, so much of what's being exchanged in, in dating— since you started with that question— people, mostly in dating, people are trying to connect through the past. So they talk about where they went to school and where they've traveled and what they've experienced. And but if you're gonna have a future, that is the least important place to connect. But to express honestly our dreams and our desires, what we're really truly looking for, what we What we can't live with and what we can't live without. This is all actually meaningful, substantive, actionable information that mostly people aren't going to share until they think the other person is attached enough to them that they'll accept, submit to it. What I know you'll break up with me over, I'm not going to show you. For as long as I possibly can, until I think you're not going to break up with me. And then you will meet her. And I mean, everything I teach is the opposite of instincts. Lead with it. Whatever you think they'll break up with you over, state it clearly before you— if you can help it— before you're ever in each other's physical presence, right? With all this online dating, when you care the least, when you care more about honoring yourself than what they think of you, that's the time to tell them who you are. So yeah, speaking to be seen, which is opposite of instinct. Speaking to be seen, very powerful. It's one of the steps in a process of honoring that we teach in LUX, which is where I talk about this stuff. So the second thing that is critically important, and why it's so important, is because literally who we think the other person is, what we heard of what they said, whether it's none of it or a small fraction of it, or, or the lion's share of it, or the most important parts of it, is determined by how are we listening. And women are asking men all the time, why can't you just listen? Well, what we're objecting to is the default listening for Anyone who's trying to be productive, male or female, the default listening is going to be something in the domain of what's the point of what they're saying? Or what's the problem? What's their problem? Like they're upset, so there's a problem. What's the problem? So they're talking and the question at the top of mind is, so what's the problem? What's the problem? What's the problem? In an attempt to identify the problem in order to provide the solution, in order to protect someone you care about from how upset they are by giving them the solution to that, or by logically pointing out with what you think of as facts that what they think is a problem isn't really. None of this goes very well, right? And the opposite doesn't work either. If we're listening, women in an estrogen open state of mind where safety lies in connectivity instead of productivity are listening. If you're fine listening, so what do you need from me? So what do you need from me? So what do you need from me? And We will literally, and all humans do this, decide what you need from me. Just like you'll decide the solution to the problem you've detected. I'll decide what to get you for Christmas based on what you just told me about your run this morning and your socks are worn through or that your knee hurt. I'm going to get you a knee brace. Without consulting you. It'll be in your stocking. And that's an interesting pun. So yes, but so we'll listen. What do you need from me? We'll decide what you need from me and we'll provide it. It's like the Hungry Man commercial that— thank God I rarely watch real television because it makes me want literally to vomit. Where he's eating the Hungry Man dinner and she reaches over with a napkin and wipes the side of his mouth like he's 3 years old, right? It's— talk about disgusting disrespect, right? Ew. So we'll be listening for, "What do you need from me? What do you need from me?" If you're agitated in any way, displeased in any way, If you're fine, like you're talking about your golf game, we're listening. What does this have to do with me? Why is he telling me this? And when we get to the end of— you get to the end of it and it didn't have anything to do with me, we think this was a waste of time. It had nothing to do with me. Why did I bother listening? Now, men have, I think, fairly called this the center of the universe, which has its own good basis. But there's all these default ways of listening, like, what do I think about that? What do I know about that? What do I want to say about that? So you may say a sentence and then It's starting a conversation where I'm deciding what I want to say about what you said. And I haven't heard anything you said since then. Because it filtered for this question that intrigued me. And if you want to know how people are listening to you, just pay attention to what causes them to interrupt. Because something will engage them and their mouth And then they'll say, and they'll tell you what they know about it or what they think about it or whether they agree or disagree with it because that's how they were listening. Or they'll say, that's— oh, that's not true for me because they were listening. Is that true for me? Is that true for me? So can you see how much information is literally being— it's just not heard? It's drowned out by the thoughts happening over here. And besides actually choosing how we're being, choosing the question we're going to listen with. Now, people will say, say, no, I just listen. I have not discovered actually any just listening. Mind is a busy bee. You got to give it something to work on.

Yeah.

Might as well give it a—

Do I agree? Do I disagree?

Yeah, might as well give it a treasure hunt. Like women who have not experienced chemistry for a man in two decades, because mostly how they're listening produces how much stronger and better than that man they think they are, where the perception of strength produces chemistry, which is why setting a boundary will get you laid. It's hot. It's hot.

Well, I think maybe on that note, I think that's probably a good segue into like, what are, you know, a lot of men tune into this show, obviously, Man Talks. What are the ways in which men can be in order to be more successful in their relationship? What are the ways that men like, are there certain energetic qualities that we can bring? Are there certain behaviors that men can bring? Because I do think that a lot of men are trying to figure out how to be more effective in their relationship. And, you know, I think a lot of this stuff just doesn't work for them. So, how can men show up? What are the energies? What are the behaviors? And then, maybe we'll sort of get into what do we misconceive about women? What do we need to understand about women?

A small topic.

A small— yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe that's round 2. We'll see if we like dip our toes into that and then—

yeah, yeah. That's why I only have 11 hours on Understanding Women. Um, so if you wanted to equate energetic with being Right? And if— so what has men fail with women is we interpret the way you listen to us so as, what's the point? And we actually have to be trained to get to the point because our instincts are going to give you all the nuances in every possible iteration. We'll even give that to you before we ask a question and you don't even know what the question is. And we're giving you this huge background. And I, I interact with my students many, many hours a month, even brand new ones, and I have to train them to, to do what supports a provider. I'm there to provide. How you support me is tell me what you want from me first before you tell me the situation, the context, the background, what happened. What do you want from me? Because if I don't know what you want from me, how am I going to be productive? Right. And the default for men is going to be, you must want a solution from me, so I will produce one for you, which we take as an insult. So when you interrupt us because you're about to give up on there even being a point to what she's saying, we're really hurt. What we think is, you don't care about me. We don't know you really do care about us, right? But how one's focused on productivity is naturally going to listen to what's the point or what's the problem. Connectivity, it's going to be, what does this have to do with me? And what do you need from me? Because I want to connect with you. If we shifted and being and listening are closely related, how we're being will have us listen differently, and listening differently can actually cause how we're being. So, for example, If men listen to women with the question, what's real for her? And not what's real for her that I'm going to point out to her is not real. No, I want to get to know this person. She's fascinating. What's real for her? In order to be respectful of what's real for her. Women don't know that men are compelled by their values. You avoid being compelled by your emotions. You pride yourself on having a grip on emotions, which is really smart since men's emotions— I, I think your emotions are in I think they're exponentially bigger than a woman's emotions. Yep.

Yeah, it's like there's, there's intensity and variety, I think is probably the way to, to say it, is like men— and this is one of the big issues that we see with guys going to therapy, is a lot of times guys will go into therapy and there's a background belief that the therapist or the practitioner is not going to be able to handle their emotional intensity. And, or that there's gonna be a judgment of their emotional intensity. And so, yeah, versus like, there's a variety of them.

And most female therapists will be that way. I mean, it's when I hear the things that therapists are doing, like in couples therapy, where she's always right and he's always wrong. I'm horrified. Like how many female therapists are trying to turn men into women? It's like, Oh my gosh. But if we pick— I think of them as treasure hunts. So like, how is this man strong? How is this man strong? How is this man strong? A woman is in control of how much chemistry she experiences. If you're on a treasure hunt for strength, you can wind yourself way up. If you're too wound up, how's this man weak? How's this man weak? And then, oh, he's really impressive and I'm really scared. Okay, so find a, find a flaw. One nostril's bigger than the other. We have to talk. We can talk ourselves down, um, if we want to.

You have man hands, Jerry. It made me think of Seinfeld where, uh, what's his name, George, was— George was like dating that one woman and she had man hands and he was like, yeah.

So If, for example, a woman listens to a man, and it also works the other way around, is just listening. This is how I could listen to my husband talk about his motorcycle ride anytime he wanted to report on it. What matters to him? What matters to him? And just listening, I could hear who he was through what tickled him and what pissed him off on that day's, you know, probably 160-mile-an-hour ride up a windy road. And this art form starts with catching how we're already listening and then picking something else to listen with. And see how long we can carry it before it, boom, it's replaced by something instinctual. And it's literally a muscle to build how long you can be listening in a conscious way. So what matters to him, what's important to him, what does he care about, what's real for her, what's true for her. What's it— even in the questions we ask, what's it like to be you now? That's one of my favorite questions for my late husband to ask me, because studying men— he met me after I'd been studying men for 6 months. And I mean, studying men changed me profoundly. I think it was no accident that It was love at first sight about 10 days, 2 weeks after I gave up emasculating men and was open to who men are.

Correlated causality.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. We can be just random instinctual pinballs sharing a pinball machine bouncing off each other and the walls. Or, or there's something else amazing available. The more we catch the tension in our body, that's an indicator of instinct. The more we reach towards the other person for what's real for them and what matters to them. And, and the more we pay attention to being clear with ourselves themselves and something that— women tend to go fishing for their needs, meaning that they put the hook in the water and they're trying to catch something. But, you know, I assert that people enjoy fishing are willing to go home without fish. And I enjoy fishing. I learned to fly fish when I was 11, and just last summer found it was still there all these years later. Just the most natural thing. My finger was hooking. It's like he handed me the pole, I hooked the thread. It was just all in my body. I caught a fish in about 15 minutes. Nice. Um, cutest little brown trout. But, but If we don't commit to our needs, like, sort, this isn't just an expectation that's going to cause a lot of mischief that I think should happen without me saying anything. I actually require this to be who I'm committed to being, to do what I've been asked to do. I require this and commit to it ourselves before we ask the other person. And that's one of the things that's so beautiful about your stand, your non-compete clause. Your non-compete clause is such a—

I like that. That's going to be my new way of positioning it. This is a non-compete clause. That's good.

Yes. Yes. But you stood for that for yourself. It wasn't something you were playing with, something you were testing, something you were seeing if it would fly. No, you stand there. I will not. Well, we— that's what we all got to do. We all got to do it. And women think if they stay flexible, they'll be more attractive. No, if you stay flexible, nobody knows who you really are. And how can a man commit to a lifetime with someone who, if she doesn't know who she is, then I don't know who she is. Why would I bet on her and make that big a bet? Who knows what she's going to become? Which is what makes older women so much more attractive. Because as we, as we learn to depend on ourselves more and trust men more and our estrogen levels are lowering, so we're not the need to please is not so intense, then we can start to please ourselves, which you guys really want us to please ourselves. When you say, "I don't care," the second sentence you don't say is, "Please yourself." All right, I'll pause myself. Where do you want to go?

I mean, I'm just, I'm letting you riff, you know, let me just drop nuggets of wisdom and, and and relational insight. And so, I mean, look, unfortunately, I feel like we have to wrap up. And I would love to have you back on because I feel like we just scratched the surface on a few things. And so I'd love to do a round 2 in a couple of months and dig a little bit deeper on some of the things that we talked about. But thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Where can people find you? We're going to have the links, obviously, in the show notes. But for the people that are like, I got to go find Allison's work, right now, where do they go?

Um, they go to allisonarmstrong.com, and, um, we'll send you something for your show notes because there's, um, something called Thrive Your Life, and I'll give you a promo code that people can get it for free. It's only an hour and 20 minutes, but oh my gosh, it for clarity, which we must have. Um, it will teach you how to create clarity, how to test that you have enough clarity, and it's now safe to open your mouth.

Awesome.

Yeah. And, um, so yeah, AlisonArmstrong.com is where everything is. Audible is where you'll find what I created in the first, uh, well, up until about 2003. So the old evergreen stuff, which is also on our website. The Queen's Code audiobook is only on our website. I didn't give it to Audible, um, and it's fiction, right? As you know, it's fiction, and And the intention is for men and women both to be much better at honoring ourselves and then each other. And, ah, what if there's a good reason for that is another question to listen with, right? Which, you know, Kimberly brings to the next time she interacts with Jack, who she's been at odds with for years. Hmm, what if there's a good reason for that? All of a sudden she's actually seeing him. And that's what mostly doesn't happen. All our misinformation about each other and relationships and how they actually work and dating. Let's set up a series of job interviews that I have to pay to be in. Right.

Yeah, which is kind of the state. I mean, I see some of the dating advice out there and it's like, this is a job interview. Like, you're describing, you know, grilling that person to see if, you know, they're going to be your executive assistant, not whether or not you want to fall in love with them.

Yes. And women don't know that men hate to be asked questions.

Or at least interviewed.

That one question qualifies as an interrogation.

Right.

And instead, We teach this all over the place, but instead to offer a playground. I would be honored. I would really appreciate it if you wanted to say more about any of these 5 things I saw in your profile. And you don't have to. If you wish I'd asked about something else, talk about that. Just open the door to a playground and let him run around and find out who he is. By what he is choosing to share. And even it seems like he's not talking about the juicy stuff because we want him to give me the juicy stuff. No, that's silly. He's naturally going to protect himself. But if he's talking about his golf game and you're listening to what matters to him, you will find the juicy stuff. He can't not have it in everything he is and does. Okay, I'll stop myself. Alison Arjung, yes, we'll, we'll do this again in a couple months. And thank you. Thanks for what you are doing. I really, really appreciate it. What is your wife's first name?

Vienna, like the city.

Like the city, Vienna. Well, thank her too for me, please.

Got it. Thanks very much, Alison. And for everybody that's out there listening, Man it forward. This is definitely an episode maybe you share with your significant other and, and share notes. What did you learn? What did you take? So definitely man it forward, share it with somebody. And as always, until next week, Connor Beaton signing off.