Ep 177, Addiction and Recovery

This is all right, this is alright I got it under wraps now and this is all night get us out of sight uptight One of my questions is day drive fall down bright light uptown Asking questions if I fall down.

Fall down, fall down, fall down welcome to Conflict Managed. I'm your host, Mary Brown. This week on Conflict Managed, we welcome several Severin Lang. Severin helps people see addiction for what it is. Not just a battle with substances, but the quiet, everyday ways we hold on when we should be letting go. Whether it's staying in the wrong relationship, clinging to clutter, tied to old grief, or numbing oneself with digital distractions, Severin invites listeners to recognize their patterns and meet them with honesty, humor and compassion. Severin's journey includes experiencing both active addiction and periods of homelessness, even during his first year of long term sobriety. Now 12 years sober, Severin draws from both lived experience and creative practice to explore what recovery looks like beyond the AA realm. His work is grounded, reflective and rooted in a belief that healing doesn't require perfection, just presence. Working with extreme dyslexia has been a daily challenge that has also taught him creative problem solving techniques and new ways of thinking physical, fueling his determination to keep trying until he finds solutions. Before this chapter of his life, Severin worked as a top tier hairstylist and model, but it's his role now as a quiet disruptor of outdated recovery narratives that feels most aligned. He's here not to preach or package a perfect solution. Instead he offers small, honest shifts in how we see ourselves and what we're attached to. Good morning Severn and welcome to Conflict Managed.

Good morning. This is going to be great. Thank you very much for inviting me.

I'm glad that you're here. We have not had anybody talking about what you're going to talk about today and over 170 podcasts. So I'm really thankful that you're going to be on the show today. But before we get to the work that you're currently doing, I want to hear about the first job you ever had as a young person.

Ooh, my first job ever. So my I had to think about when I was 15 years old man first job ever. I was a cashier at a cashier and a like a soda pop person at a farmer pharmaceutical that served fountain drinks and ca. I was cashier so I had to make like a green miles if you know what that is. It was an old style back in Iowa, old style pharmaceutical, this little country little town and I just had to cash people out and make soda pops from scratch. And that was my first experience. Not the best experience because I didn't get paid so much. It ended up that my payment went to my parents account to pay off of their, their debts basically. But it all worked out at the end. But it's all good. And then my, my technical job job was McDonald's.

It was really interesting as a first job because, you know, some, some first jobs, right. You know, working on family farm or something like that. And, and the work is family centric. Many of the motivations for, for young people is varied. But you get that first little money and you don't have mortgage and all these other sorts of things. You might be saving for a car. But it's different than when you are in your 20s on up and it's, you know, it's just very different. And so to be working for something that's kind of intangible when you're that age.

Yeah. Yeah.

How did that feel?

It was, it. It felt like an accomplishment in a way where I could have a sense of a little freedom where I could buy something that I've been working up towards. At that time, I was involved with a bunch of kids where we would play. Play games at a comic book store. So we were saving up for a particular game at that time. And so I was able to chip in, into this, this tabletop game. So it was, it was a goal setting. So really it felt a good accomplishment. And I was chipping in with the group, so I was a part of something interesting.

So part of something with your, with your friends and your family.

Right, and with my family.

Community from the beginning.

It was a community from the beginning. It was, it was interesting to see how my parents handled that because that was that my payment, my. They noticed like I wasn't getting paid like a check check. And I saw the, the conflict. They took the, the owner. I'm like, hey, my son is not getting paid. I'm like, oh, that was going to your bill. And they're like, no, he gets to get paid that he needs to get dessert paid. That's not. Should have gone. That's not under the table. This is legit from, from now on. So it was, it was nice to see my parents defending my, my right to work and not under the table and not for that, you know, like, not for their debt, but that I deserve to be paid. So that was pretty cool to see them standing up for me.

Yeah.

So that was nice.

Yeah, that's, that's great. So any other first jobs before what your first professional job is?

My fir, you know, working at McDonald's, I would have to say any, anyone in their teens. If you can get a work permit, you know, in fast food, I would have to say McDonald's or any fast food joint. Servitude is definitely humbling, humbling experience to, to anyone who needs to. Just a job type of thing. I definitely learned a lot about life in how people work as a team, as a unit. Because there's such a demand of repetition and organization and a demand to get things done in an orderly manner and a quickly manner. And also like if a truck, like food truck, when they're delivery, I'm in a big, big semi, comes in for delivery, you have to be there like at 4 o', clock, 5 o' clock in the morning and these 16 year old kids have to get there to get these trucks voluntarily. Obviously with parents approval and all that jazz, I'm like, yeah, Saturday morning you're going to get that food truck type of thing. So it's, it shows initiative and willing to work. Obviously we didn't work full nine hour, eight hour shifts, but it's, it's that accomplishment.

Yeah.

And if it feels good at the time and it allows us to feel, be a part of, of something greater.

Yeah. I love the way you described that because a lot of times we think about like rites of passage as we get older. Sometimes people just go right from thinking about from high school to college or some sort of post secondary, you know, education. But there's something about going into the world of work. Just as you were talking, it made me think about Dorothy pulling behind the curtain, you know, and seeing what's really making, what's really making it right where the sausage is made. And that experience is so formative for a young person because before that you just went up to the counter, you got your food and if it took five minutes, you're like, why am I waiting?

This is not, yeah, why am I waiting? Yeah, like it should be fast and like you realize, no, they actually have to do X, Y and Z to do X, Y and Z. Then you get your food and if X, X and Y are not there and then Z is not going to happen. And so yeah, and then you, you become sympathetic. And then when, if you go to a sit down restaurant then you have a little bit more understanding be like, okay, there's a reason why my food is a little bit delayed. Okay. My server, you ask certain questions like hey, I noticed my food is running Late. Is there something going on? Like, yeah, X, you know, something that, you know, we don't have this. I'm like, oh, okay, well, I should have known that from the beginning. So I won't order that. So let's try this. You know, you just adapt. You don't get annoyed if you ask the right questions.

Yeah, yeah. It's so interesting how sometimes we do think about these entry level jobs as throwaway jobs, but nothing is ever lost if we don't, if we don't let it be lost.

Yeah. It prepared me for the bigger world from that learning point. I traveled the world after that, after, you know, when I was in the mid teens and in the later teens, I traveled and that gave me a launching pad to learn and to accept, to just to accept other people and they, you know, their jobs and understand what's going on.

So tell us a little bit about that. How did you move from this relatively small town to traveling the world? And so what was that about?

Yeah, so my, my first professional, professional job. And as in, when I, when I say professional, my first career, as in this is my so called life career, is a, I'm a hairstylist. Is my first career. When I say first, I have a second career. My first career is a, as a hairstylist. I was introduced the hairstyling world through the world of fashion. I was at, I was a model and I was living in Milan, Italy, and I was at a Runway show. I was babysitting models, female models, because they were a little bit younger and I was older and I was babysitting these female models and I was watching another hairstylist and I was like, hey, I look, I was like, I think I could do that because they were struggling. And so I intervened. I'm like, hey, I let me try this. So I tried it and they're like, hey, I think you can do this. And like, yeah, it's okay. And then a year or two later, I went back to Iowa. I was like, I was at a turning point. I was like, okay, what can I do as a career? And some of my buddies like, hey, you told us you did this and you're an artist. And you know, artists in general don't have a career unless they're in a certain point like design or digital design or things like that. So I'm like, yeah, okay. I really don't want to go back to college. So I did one of those prayers when you're driving, like, all right, God, what do you want me to do? And I Looked to my left and like, there's a beauty school right there. I'm like, really? Do I really? And they're like, okay. And I was aware enough. Luckily I was aware enough. And so I drove into the parking lot and I signed up. And from there I got connected. In a little place in Iowa, I got connected to a. A well known hairstylist of the world named Jose Baer. And that was my first job or my first career choice as a color assistant. And then from there, my career was launched in the hair world under a flagship name of the world. And from there, my career was pretty much set. But unfortunately I do have to put a. But I wasn't sober then, and so my career was a little wonky and I, I'm open about that. My sobriety, because my career does shift a little bit in my understanding what professionalism and, and how I handle people is much differently because sobriety does change my perspective, how I look into the world and how I handle myself, if that makes sense.

Absolutely. You know, there's a lot of people that, that struggle with and being sober and whatever it is that might be consuming. So what was it like? Navigating this professional hair is relatively high stakes. I mean, you getting this constant feedback from people. So not only the person in the chair, but then the people around you and not having all of your wits about you. What was that like, navigating that world? I imagine that would be very stressful.

Well, luckily it's. Yeah, that's a good question. Luckily I do have a sense of understanding and coherency. When I was not, when I was not sober, my drinking did not get in the way of my professionalism. As in, I did not drink in the middle of the day. I'm a little stubborn on that part. So I didn't want it to bring it into the salon. I did it afterwards. But my, my ability to connect with people, which is very, very, very important to behind the chair, is when I say behind the chair, meaning behind, like the client in front of me and connecting. So when I hear sis, I stand behind the chair, they're talking about that intimacy right there. There is always a connection. And I was unable to have that connection because the, the addiction was stopping that connection intimately. And in the, in the hairstyling world of the service industry, as the massage therapist and esthetician, and anything that has to do with that level of intimacy, addiction stops that intimacy. And it's harder to create a clientele because they can tell that you're blank and you can do the job if you're skillful enough, which I am, I'm grateful for that. But I couldn't create that long lasting clientele and my understanding of what their needs were were given. I could do it. But sometimes the conversations would lead to selfishness and like me, me, me, me, me, like this is my world. And you know, it's, it's a very selfish industry unfortunately. So that's a very much of a standard when the hair world and that could lead into toxicity within the salon. And it's, it got, it got funky at times. So egos run rampant in the salon world and we, a lot of people hit heads. So I would say it was a challenge to say the least. And the salon owners are already dealing with that. And when you have people with addiction, it does not help at all because they're already dealing with personalities, conflicting personalities. And they're already dealing with clients that are already challenged or needy or just unhappy. You know, but there are good points and bad points and people with addiction take the bad points and blow them out of the water. Like just make a big deal out of it and make the little things, make it just exaggerate them. And I tend, when I was in my ism, I tend to did that and made more problems.

So this is a really interesting distinction that you made of no, I'm going to work, not drunk when I'm at work. I can do the hard skill of the job. So you can do, do the job. And yet as you've described, the job is not just the hard skill. And this, this is a theme I see in almost any line of work. You've got this, the hard skill versus the soft skill. But the client wants all of it. Yeah. And you know, and you know as a professional that the actual job is all of it. It's not just being able to execute the hair or whatever it is you're doing, it's making that environment and those connections. And so the person not only sees the result, they feel the result because of that connection they've made. And how interesting for you to know that there is this, this wall. And so interesting that the wall brings about me talk instead of us collaborating kind of talk.

Yeah. So the in and the, the rut of the thing of the me talk is I don't really talk that much, which is really weird too. When I do talk, it's very self centered of what, like what I'm trying to do in life and, or I'm negativity about my situation or the drama of A salon and, and it just brings down the mood a little bit or I'll stop the conversation quickly. Like if she tries or he or she tries to talk a little bit about what's going on in their life or just simple, simple conversations really, I'll just stop it because I don't want to get connected. And I was aware of that and it just when I was in my ism connections made me felt really, really uncomfortable. So I, I would just try to deflect and I would have many, many sit downs with, with salon owners or managers. Like hey, you know, we notice this pattern, right? Yeah, but the job's done. I, I show good work. Like yeah, but we do have a complaint that, you know, you're kind of stone face. I'm like, job's done though. It looks good. I'm like, yeah, well we kind of need you to be a little bit more welcoming. Like. Yep, okay. Yeah, so that, that was, that was always been a struggle in the beginning years. But it was apparent. But you're absolutely right that there's a wholeness that I wasn't, wasn't able to complete when I was in my younger years. And I wasn't aware. I was aware, but I wasn't aware as in my sub, my, my, my ego was stopping me for being completely aware. So I would drink about it. Does that make sense? I was aware, that's why I drank. But I wasn't comfortable enough to be conscious about it and willing to work on it and grow from it and seek help for it. And so working with and some managers and salon owners didn't know how to present themselves to confront me, to help me as well, which was also a challenge because they people, it was in the salon world, beauty world, there's a lot of people with addictions and they don't know how to go about it as well. And presenting themselves like, hey, you need help, how do we do it? That that's, that's always been a struggle for them and so they kind of let it slide until it becomes a scheduling problem. So when it becomes a scheduling problem, that's when they either fire or limit or they have more strict, strict conversations.

She said so much there that whether it's sobriety or any sort of non professional behavior at work, Sony managers just don't know what to do. And I think it is much harder if you feel like a person might have a personality disorder or they are struggling with substance because managers aren't usually, our owners aren't really trained in the messiness of human experience and they've got their own messiness and all these personalities, not only in their staff, but their clients and can be very overwhelming. So getting support to leaders so that they can notice earlier instead of just dealing on the back end. So knowing what you know now, what do you think, if anything, might have been a more effective message from one of your salon owners or somebody that you worked for that noticed that you were having a problem with addiction Instead of just kind of turning in that blind eye until they couldn't, what do you think would have been a better strategy?

Well, there, okay, so there, there was obvious. Lot of times. Well, first of all, working for another alcoholic definitely didn't help. So you know, we'll just remove that because there was plenty of times where I did work for owners who were alcoholics. So that's a big obvious duh. But the ones that tried to reach out and be concerned, tried to help out, their approach was definitely overbearing, were controlling and ruling like I'm ruling over you. And their approach was definitely when someone's in a heavy addiction and when their ego, their, their monkey mind, their, their conscious, their subconscious is not there that they're not in control, their ego is in the control. So we, when you come at someone from above of a ruling standpoint of a control, they're, they're in fight or flight mode. So they're going to be walls up defense. So they're going to be attacked, they're going to attack you back. And so that approach will never work. So if you, if you're a manager or an owner of a company and you notice or hr and if you notice someone that has like the, the, the, the stereotype, stereotypical drug or alcohol addiction, we just stick with those two things. Wells, that's a whole different conversation with me. I'm stick with those two or pills. If you notice someone with those problems coming from the side and, or from the bottom, like supportive or from side meaning friendship, it's a, a weird when it comes from the side, it's a, it's a weird concept for owners or managers because that's a line that you don't want to cross. But from to it, from coming to coming to an addict or an alcoholic, kind of have to do that a little bit because you don't want to scare them off. But also you, you kind of need to know that you're there as an authoritative figure a little bit. So there's a little fine line you had to be careful of. So you come at them you're like, you ask them like, you get personal. You try to come at them like, you know, when I have a problem, you make it about you, not them. Can you say, when I have a problem, I try to do this. When I have a problem, I reach out to this person. Or when I have a problem, I try to make like daily notes. When I have a mean thought or things about I, I, I. So they understand that you actually try and help them in a way and then plant seeds of help and then let it sit and see if there's a slight little improvement. And then come at them again and be like, hey now authoritative. Like, hey, there's a habit forming. We see this coming, coming for me, we need to talk a little bit more because you're just going to trigger more of their addiction and then with that you're going to landslide their addiction more and you're going to cause more problem for them and for you. And sometimes that's going to be a bad thing and sometimes that could be a good thing because that might kick them into recovery and make them go in recovery mode. So it's a weird, you have to feel it out different people and how they're going to respond. For me, it wasn't a manager, an owner, it was a client that got me into sobriety and she took a bold, bold move. Sometimes it takes a bold move to get in, to get someone in recovery. So you just had to look at them like, are they ready? You know, some people, some companies, big companies or little companies, if, if you have part of the recovery or if you have recovery warranty or insurance, you know, if you're, if you have that within your realm of your business, that's an angle that is life saving, that can help people. And that's a great option to throw on the table. Like, look, you may like you, you have this option, we can smell alcohol or you have this, have it forming you. You know, we can tell that you're on something type of thing. You know, we have this recovery system. We can, we can get you in your car. A detox, please. You could get someone in recovery to talk to them. That, that sometimes helps. Um, I, I've done that before. Someone has asked me some HR from a friend of a friend, asked me to reach out to and just connect and does it work all the time? Not necessarily, but it does plant a seed and would they get it? Maybe, maybe not. Some people will respond to it, some not. Then again, say that this is, this is a weird conversation when, when it Comes down to addiction. In the addiction world. This is gonna sound, this is gonna sound kind of mean, but I, I say this because I am in the addiction world. So we have bottoms, okay? And until someone hits their bottom, they'll get recovery. So depending how far your, your employment person and whoever's working for you, depending how far they are in their, in their world of. On their trail of their addiction, will determine where they're at. It will. You might have to fire them. And you firing them will get them into recovery. And if you feel guilty about that, that's, that's a, that's a, that's a you problem. That's, that's a personal thing. But that's also could get them into recovery. But before firing them, I would see if they can get in, if you can get them into detox and orient recovery system before that. Because if you have that system, that's your last chance to lay an land a seed in their, in their subconscious to get recovery or set up a system. I know of many, many people that had this system in place in their companies where they would have to go to an A in the world of COVID There's aa Alcohol, anomalous. Some people would have to agree to their managers that over lunch they'll extend their lunch period. They will extend their lunch for about an hour and a half where they will have a half an hour for eating and an hour for a recovery meeting. And they would have to check in with their manager before and after. And that was their verbal agreement or their employment. It's. It. It's kind of shady a little bit, but that's to say their job, but it's not part of their HR agreements. It's something that's two humans agreeing to each other. Like I like this company. I need to work here. I want to save my employment and making an idea of a plan forward. Like, great. We like you, you're a great human being. But you're. You're messing up and we can tell that you're messing like you're on something. So coming up with a game plan like that that can work. I've heard that multiple times.

I like so many of the things that you have said and I appreciate them. And what stands out is that there's obviously not one, not one size fits all. No, no, that, that it's messy, that it's a process. And that what works for one person may or may not work for another or a part here apart there. And I love this idea of seeds because we're all part of the human community and we are members on the way. Right. We're all growing and developing. But so many times people just want to think, okay, this is the fix and this is it in my timetable, because this is what I want. But dealing with other people just doesn't work that way.

No.

And so what the one thing you said that's so telling is that if I feel bad because I've. I've acted in good conscience and let this person go after all these other things that have happened, there is actually no place for feeling guilty. That that's a me problem. And in fact, a lot of times unsafe work environments for that person who's addicted and the people around them is carried out because the manager or the boss is unable to regulate their own emotions and be very clear about guidelines and act in everybody's interest. And so I think having those real clear boundaries where somebody else's trauma doesn't have to bleed into me, I can be very human and empathetic and compassionate without taking on this other person's burden. Because when I do that, that I'm going to be ineffectual. I'm going to be dragged into their drama instead of being able to be properly aloof, to allow them to be them and make their own decisions, and then I'll be free to make my own decisions and, and work. And I think that's really the best way to really work together in this tough situation that people find themselves in all the time.

Yeah, yeah, it's a. Definitely. And in the corporate world, it's very difficult. It's very difficult to manage. But in the corporate world, it has support systems, it has opportunities for detox and recovery systems within their protocols. I know a lot of people, I met a lot of people who got recovery because of their companies have that in place. In the beauty world, that's not a thing. And that's definitely not a thing. We. We just deal with it. And, you know, a couple salons I worked in, you know, they're. They're One of my. Man, one of my buddies was an active, active alcoholic, drug addict and great hairstylist. And, you know, his clients would make sure that he is a little tipsy for his haircuts, as he gives great haircuts when he's tipsy. And I like, buddy, I'm like, hey, that's not a longevity lifestyle. That's not a good thing. It's like, so in the beauty world, it's kind of. It's kind of like we're not set up for that. We're a very sociable industry, so it's, it's common and it's very unhealthy and toxic. Toxic. And it would be nice to change that and, and be welcome in the professional world as professionals, but we're not looked at that way, unfortunately. And that's frustrating and bleeds into our psyche sometimes. And. But some owners, I've worked with some owners that look at us hairstylists as their clients, like they're there for us. And the clients, as in the salon clients, they're not there for them. They don't care about them. They care about us. And if we're happy, they know that the clients are happy. So that type of ownership or management phenomenal. Every hairstylist, hair assistants front, front desk front. Help run smoothly because we know that our support is coming from top, you know.

So what kinds of things did those owners do that demonstrated that they were there for you and they were there to support you? What are like some practical, everyday kinds of things?

They did well, they didn't micromanage. They. One, they, at the beginning, like if you, when I was hired on, they were like, look, I'm not a hairstylist. I'm the numbers. I make sure bills are paid, I make sure the buildings run and all and everything is booked. You know, I make sure your, your books are decently booked and I, I make sure the product's there and all that jazz. Well, they would come in and they'll look at you and say, hey, is everything good? Like, yeah, everything's good. Like great. They, they understand that we are all, all artists and we, they don't give us uniform restrictions, which was very, very important because we, we as you can tell, like, you know, we have self expressions. But they allowed us the freedom as artists to not necessarily come and go, but let us come and go. Like we agreed upon these hours that we work in. We agreed to be there. But if we, if we have a gap for three hours, you know, like, hey, just tell the front desk that you're. You're going off. Just be phone be 10 minutes away. Like, great, I'm gonna go for a walk. Cool. Just be around. Like, not problem. Some freedoms are given. Like, hey, I got an errand to do. Great. Just be a phone call away. Like, yeah, not a problem. Like duh. Those freedoms. And also they actually want to know your goals. That is the hugest thing. Like as an owner and managers, it doesn't matter if you're in the beauty industry or the car Industry or the health industry or stock industry. It doesn't matter what industry you're in. If you don't know your employees personal goals, then what's the point of managing them there? What's the point? You can't cheer them on if you don't know their personal goals. Because if you can't turn, you just can't cheer them on. Yeah, like, like just a slight little support. Like maybe you have an idea for their personal goal. Like my personal goal would be, you know, like owning a new car someday. Like great, that means I need to help them get achieve X amount of blah blah, blah for sales or new clients or get a raise or anything that they'll help them achieve that. Like maybe it's get a new class to, to get a new position. Like great, let's find a new system. Or like, oh, our business allows this type of class. It's not exact but it gets closer to their goal. Great, let's get them to that class. You know, little stuff. Or is it maybe it's like, hey, I want it. You know, one of the goals is like I want to be married. Like not to be a matchmaker. But there could be like a leadership program, you know, that creates personal growth for that person to create growth personally. By doing that, you're able to get them self confidence, self growth and could lead into a match some someone that will be more attracted to that leadership's style set. There's also all sorts of creative ways. I had an owner that wanted like he didn't care about salon goals. I'm like, dude, I want to work for you. It's like, yeah, yeah, I don't care about salon stuff. Like what's, what's going on with your personal goals. Like finally someone gets it what it's.

Like to be cared for and seen wherever we are. But at work it's so funny because I deal with conflict all the time and a question can be, well, I'm in a conflict with somebody and well, what is it they want? What are their goals? And so many times conflict gets us down to, I'm just, we're just talking about the temperature or you know, some kind of number. But if you don't really know what your colleagues or if your boss doesn't really know what you want, what your goals are, you know, those little curious questions can just shift, shift. Instead of thinking about this other person as a component, but as a person. Right? And how freeing then to do your work and be seen and not be micromanaged as you Mentioned because you're being cheered on. Gosh, that's so evocative. This idea of being, of being cared for. And when we aren't cared for and therefore invested in, then we're more likely to be engaged, we're more likely to show up. We're going to have a longer longevity and. And the client is going to have a better experience. Because we're having a better experience.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So the. When, when the, the unfortunately everything is like a pyramid and it's. When the bottom is. When the bottom is built on sand and it's, it's not steady, you know, when the bottom is built on rock and when your foundation is on. Is on foundations rock steady, then you're going to build, you know, when you get no support from the top, like what's the point of a business? You know, it's. Yeah, like my, my business, my new business model has never been done before in the salon world. And I'm just waiting to apply it just to rock the boat type of thing, to give the power back and to lead a new style of business. But that takes time because it's, it just takes time. It's not the right moment right now for me personally, but it's one of those. Eliminates the, the high hierarchy and gives a nice steady foundation for everyone to grow, you know, independently, like gives ownership to everyone, like their own freedom for life. But the, the deal with conflict, you know, the, the whole open door policy goes a long way. But like to me it only works if they feel supported. If they don't feel supported, they're not going to come to you.

Yeah. It's meaningless. And it's the quote unquote, open door. It's, you know. Yeah, absolutely. So what are you up to now?

So what the thing that I'm up to now, so I told you I have my hair is one career. My second career is the film industry. I'm a film director. But that world is, as you can maybe know that it's weird right now it's very on the rocks. So I'm currently developing a play about recovery and with that I'm developing myself personally to be a public speaker about recovery. And I'm using both, I'm using both of them as a platform. I'm using the play as a platform to spread recovery and using that to help my public speaking about recovery and I'm leading that direction to do live entertainment with a play and hopefully I can help more people. And my, my point of view about addiction is not just Drugs and alcohol. It's. It's more everyday struggles of the. The. Okay, let me explain what addiction is. So addiction is where it comes from, the root word comes from. It's the. It's the chemical reaction within the body from an outside source. The body gets addicted to the chemical reaction where that's outside source. Okay, so it can be depression, it can be saying, I'm divorced. It can be hoarding, it can be eating, it can be grieving. It's anything that gets immediate gratification. It could be motorcycle riding, extreme sports. It's whatever. It's hindering your life on a daily basis. So I'm wanting to change the viewpoints of what addiction is. So that's where I'm at. Hopefully this is the beginning point. You're my launching pad, trying the ideas of everything. So in my play is about addiction and it's. It's a good storyline. So.

Oh, that's such important work. Because if you don't know there's a problem, you're not going to be able to fix it. You're not going to be looking for solutions of that. Curiosity. Right again, curiosity about the self. Why am I doing this? What am I getting out of it? What kind of life do I want to have? What kind of connections do I want to have? And what is getting in the way?

Yeah, it's like, are you limited in the daily actions? Like if you're feeling that you're stuck or you're in muddy waters and you're being slowed down, there might be little things that are just in the way. You know, I've done a lot of personal work. I've been. I'm sober for 12 years now, and I've done a lot of personal growth that I'm still decluttering my life and understanding what my addictions are like. Condiments. Oh, man. So I'm not addicted to continents. Here's, here's. Here's what I was. Let me explain this. So I was decluttering. I do a minimalist, and I was cleaning everything and I was getting rid of things. And I was going through my. I was going through my refrigerator and I was like, wow. There was like. My whole refrigerator door was filled with condiments. And I don't use condiments. I really don't. And I sat there, meditated, and I was trying to figure out why I have so many condiments. And then it struck me. It was my dad. My dad passed away in 08. And it's. I'm not. I Didn't grieve properly. So my hoarding of condiments, this constant reminder of these condiments within the door just kept on reminding me. So I had to let go, do some steps. In the, in the program of aa, we do these steps to help us understand what our addictions are and to help us process and to let go. And I did an adaptation of that for common people. We call them normies. So normies couldn't understand and process. And I adapted it for. For you all and to help me grieve and to let go. And I wouldn't throw the condiments away until I did the process. And I did that to a lot of things to help me understand what I was holding on to. And then once I did it, I feel much better. I can move on with my life. And then I realized I was holding on to more items because I. I haven't let go of that relationship. So we all do that. And once I did that, it clicked. Like things that I hold onto was filling up my life. Once I let go and get. Get rid of it, it allowed new. New experiences, new items to enter into my lives. And once I did that, it started flowing. So it's. It's a way of decluttering and it's. It's a way of releasing the bad juju in your life. And it just helps the mental psyche of. And also fighting the ego. Some people call it edge God out. God for me is the. The foundation of my own recovery. It helps. And I know it's a weird conversation for the business world, but it's, it's a, it's a step to the right direction. If we can talk about that in a generic form and non. Biased, non I'm pushing it on you type of thing, you can, it can be just like, hey, you know, do you pray? No. Like pray about it. You know, things like that, not necessary. God this, God that.

But anyway, I do think that's an interesting point in the business world when we are trying to have real conversations about difficult things. What is allowed to be talked about and what is not allowed to be talked about. And yeah, and I think there's a good reason for that because there's something about professionalism and what does it mean to be professional? And yet in the midst of professionalism, we do have the messiness of life and we have the reality and we have the sufferings and the joys that come along. And so those sufferings and the joys happen to real people who are embodied, who have real Belief systems. And those belief systems have a lot to do with how they understand what has happened to them or what they're going through, the good and the bad. Let me ask you about this decluttering because I. I think about my thing about conflict. I think about how cluttered our minds get with all of these narratives that we have spun and the past baggage that we have.

Oh, yeah, please.

All the condiments and. And all of these things, struggling, the swirling in my mind. But I'm in reality, in a detached point of view. It's me and you over this one particular thing. But I'm bringing all this with me, and I've got all these thoughts, and so are you. So having gone through this process, going through this process, being sober for 12 years, do you see that this process has. And this new way of being has affected your own how you deal with conflict either at work or other places?

You know, it's. When I'm dealing with a client, it's. It's unique talent to take on someone's energy or anger and not take it personal. And as they build up the momentum of the anger and going on and on, I'm trying to get calm. And I acknowledge. I just acknowledge them. It's like, I understand that you are frustrated and angry. And in my head, I'm like, this is the. This is a you problem. This is not a me problem. I defend myself of the consultation. I defend everything that we, X, Y and Z. And then I let the person vent. I let it get it out of their system. I don't take it personally. And I can only do that if I'm sound. And by decluttering my own personal attachments, my own ego, I have to keep that in check because I could nitpick and angry them and destroy them all the way down, you know, to their shoes, to their hair and all that stuff. Like. But that's pity. That's going down to their level and staying above their level makes them more mad. But you kind of have to be what they call, you know, the adult of the argument and just let them be the child and just vent out. And it's. It's a challenge.

When somebody is upset, though, it isn't your fault. The first thing you said is acknowledge that they're upset and then acknowledge. And then the same, though, is if you've made the mistake, admit, acknowledge. So acknowledging is starting on both ends. And I think that is, oh, 100% be interesting.

Yeah. Like, lying to them will just make them even more mad.

Right.

Like Obviously, you screwed up. If it's your fault, like, yeah, you screwed up. Like in the hair world, I even screw up.

So my last question for you, please, is as you look into the future of work, what do you think needs to happen so that not only will all workers be treated with dignity and respect, but that they will be encouraged to thrive and flourish?

I used to work for a gentleman that believed in. You fear me, therefore you respect me. That doesn't work anymore. And yeah, I understand. I used to manage salons and I used to educate in beauty schools. So leading hundreds and hundreds of people. So I get it. You have to. You can't be friend to everyone. I understand. Everyone genuinely needs to be happy and to grow to me to grow a successful business and everyone's thriving. Lead by example. If you can't lead by example, you're not going to survive. I'm an Eagle Scout and that was drilled into me and I try to live by that as much as possible and then add in sobriety, one of those things that I try to strive for a lot. And if you are trying to change your company to have a better life balance, everyone needs to have a better life balance. Then if you're a manager, like, I'm so stressed out. Everyone is having is stressed out. So if you want better life balance, everyone needs to have better life balance. So you need to lead by example. If you're unhappy, everyone's unhappy and just care.

That's a great way to end. I mean, lead by example and care. So thank you so much for being on Conflict Managed. I really enjoyed our conversation today.

I agreed. I. I agree. It was great. Thank you, man. I appreciate this time. And hopefully I planted a seed to someone. And if someone reaches out to you and wants to reach out to me type of thing, just connect the dots. Absolutely, by all means. What was given to me so freely, I will do the same. And hopefully, hopefully this will help someone.

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much and take care.

Take care. Appreciate you.

You too. Bye. Kevin, thank you so much for your willingness to share your story and your desire to help people. I love what you said at the end. What was so freely given to you, you want to give back to others. So if there's anybody listening who, once I get connected to Severin, just let me know and I'd be happy to try to connect the two of you. Also, he talked about how many companies have programs and EAP programs, employee assistant programs. A lot of organizations have those. So I encourage you, if you or someone you know is dealing with substance abuse. Reach out to through hr. Look up in your company to see what services are available to you. Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services and hosted by me, Mary Brown. You can find us online at 3pconflictrestoration.com Come back. We have new episodes every Tuesday and if you please, like or subscribe wherever you're listening or watching this podcast, that would be greatly appreciated. You can watch this podcast on YouTube at 3 p. Conflict restoration. Our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot and my latest book, so two years Old now how to be unprofessional at work Tips to ensure failure. It's 80 tips of what not to do at work and discusses what to do instead of having a healthy work environment. My newest book, which is called Winning the Generation how to make your age an asset at work I believe is coming out in November. Very excited about that. And remember, conflict is normal and expected. Let's deal with it. Until next time. Take care. I got.

A sun for you.

Run.

Red light. Run.

Stop.