Recovery Mindset: Elliott’s 3 Perspectives on Moving Through Trauma Ep. 346

Those of us who have just had some mini, little traumas, small traumas, or somebody's going through massive, big T, they call it trauma is once we recognize the need for agency and we even recognize what's the right thing to do right now, we got to do it immediately. We can't overthink it. So it's. It's. I give clients this continuum all the time. So here's my hands up on each side, and there's a big decision right here and. Or a little decision even if it's traumatically difficult to make a little decision even. And we tend to think, think, think, think, think, think, think, think, think, think, think. And what should have taken literally maybe a second could take weeks. And so it's really creating this. And I love that it's prayer hands. I got a decision I need to make. I make it. It's the right decision. I'm getting the blessing from the Lord, and that's difficult. So even the decision to get out of bed, and I work with students on this all the time. As soon as you know you're awake or as soon as your alarm gets off, you got to get up immediately. There's not a choice. It's not, do I feel like getting up? Do I feel safe? Do I feel strong? Do I want to go to class? You just get up. It's the right thing to do. It's the right choice. And we move, and the brain will follow us. Karen talks that about all the time. What's the right behavior? Let the behavior move forward and the thinking will follow.

Welcome to Love and life. I'm Dr. Karen Anderson. Abril.

Here with my co host, Pastor Elliot Anderson.

And Love and Life is your place to hear conversations grounded in psych research, psychotherapy, and biblical truth to help us thrive in love and life.

Welcome to Love and Life. This is Pastor Elliot. I have run a coup and successfully moved Karen off the podcast. And so it's just me and Tim now. Actually, of course, that's not true. There wouldn't be a podcast without Dr. Karen, my lovely and brilliant sister. She is skiing with her husband, and I'm thrilled for her and glad it's not me. I don't like to ski and I don't like to travel. So other than that, I'm glad to be here and super fun. Talk about something that's been on my heart, Tim. It's related to a lot of the work I do as a crisis therapist, and it's what I'm calling today for our episode. I'm Calling it recovery mindset. How do we recover? And listeners might be thinking, well, I don't got any trauma in my life right now. I don't have any crisis in my life right now. And we can just say, well, how do you recover from day to day? Worldliness and sin and darkness and challenges at work with a frustrating boss or a workload that's too much. So basically this can be a perspective that helps with just day to day functioning as an adult and also more specifically for those really recovering from significant loss, divorce, abuse, adultery, things of that nature.

Yeah, heavy stuff.

It is. It is deep and heavy. So there's three perspectives. Tim, I want to share and be producer and listener for us today. So for all those that are out there and if necessary, pretend you're my sister and poke holes in my stuff and make me concretize.

More specifically, a few years ago, I started having trouble falling asleep and I started taking melatonin because I thought it was a natural way to try to relax myself, calm myself down and go to sleep. But it turns out that as a hormone supplement, melatonin can disrupt our other hormones and we can build up an immunity to it. So when we started partnering with the wellness company, I was super excited to try their melatonin free sleep aid called Restful Sleep. It includes passion flower, chamomile, valerian root, among other herbs, and natural ways to help calm us down and get us ready to go to bed. I've been using it for a couple months now and Restful Sleep helps my mind and body quiet themselves and ease into sleep. If you've ever had insomnia, you know how brutal it is. Wellness Company's Restful Sleep can help. Head over to TWC Health Lovelife and enter promo code Lovelife at checkout for 15% off your entire order. That's TWC Health Lovelife and promo code lovelife for 15% off your entire order.

The first one, Tim, is present perspective. It is very difficult in our day to day functioning, but way more so if we're trying to recover from a significant trauma or pain or loss of a loved one, death of a loved one to stay present. We get swallowed up in the past and some kind of reflection about the past is appropriate and wise. But we can easily get stuck in the past and then at the exact same time get very fearful of the future. How will I live two years from now as a single mom? How will I live without my mother? How will I recover? I want to stay in the marriage, but how do I recover from this. This adultery or this betrayal. All very fair questions. And so we can either get very trapped in the past and kind of buried into that pain and loss, or we can get so overwhelmed and anxious about the future that in our present we have a really hard time just surviving, just functioning, getting the things done on our calendar we need to get done. Responsibility with our children. Our work, it's trying to avoid the sink in or the sit in, as I call it, to that trauma pain. We have to recognize it, but we can't sit in it. We got to move through it. Not around it, actually move through what is there. So what's your first thought that comes you, Tim, when I talk about this mindset of just staying present.

Yeah. There's two things. I'm curious. I mean, I immediately, for myself, can go to a spiritual side of things.

Oh, good.

I'm curious. I can talk about that all day. I'm curious before we even go there, what's psychologically? Like, what is, what is? I don't know if there's research on it. Like, what is staying present psychologically look like for us?

Yeah. When we receive a traumatic event. And like the examples I gave our limbic system, that kind of our emotional center in the midbrain, the amygdala gets spazzed out, and that's our fight and flight survival mode. Activates the hippocampus, activates the hypothalamus, and kind of goes into the reptile brain in the back and heads down into our nervous system and throughout the entire response. Some people get headaches when massive stress hits all of a sudden, or stomach aches, or shut down and go to sleep for three days. Some people, like me, get more hyper and even more agitational in either words or action. And when all that happens, Tim, when that trauma response hits so strongly, it actually kind of blocks the pathways up to the front, the neocortex in the cerebral cortex, where we have our functioning, our structure, our linear thoughts, our organization, our recognition of time. It's so common. If we go through a really difficult traumatic event, we lose track of time. We're like, have I been sleeping for six hours? But I slept a day and a half? When did I eat last? I can't even remember when I ate. We just kind of lose that functioning and many of us will go into a freeze mode. And of course, my work as a crisis therapist with the police back in the mid-90s, I would see that a lot of times when I was called into the police station to meet with Someone who was in a massive traumatic event and they were so frozen, it took 20 minutes for me just to get eye contact or just to get a sense of safety and peace in the room in order to begin any kind of therapeutic movement. And so when that happens to us and we're functioning in a normal way, and so maybe it's not so traumatic that we're at the police station and we're just having to move through something we found out and it's very difficult, or the recognition that the divorce is finally done. And so we're still functioning, we're still moving forward. It can be very easy then to allow that limbic system to where the pain is resonating the loudest, to lead everything right. We end up leading through our emotions. And those emotions at that point are probably not super balanced. They're probably deep in sorrow, which isn't inappropriate. But so steeped in sorrow that we find no joy. So. So steeped in pain, we. We have no desire to do the things that bring us joy. And so it's trying to make sure we stay present and even write some things down and write. Write reminders down and reach out to friends and acknowledge, hey, I'm struggling. Can you remind me about this big thing I need to turn in at work tomorrow? And they're like, dude, that's the biggest thing in your mind. I know, but I'm wrestling right now. I'm struggling. So we have to reach out. And by putting things in writing and by reaching out to friends and. And talking about what is presently needed, it helps calm. Gets the parasympathetic nervous system back involved. Deep breaths, little bit of walking, little exercise, things like that kind of settled the spirit down and can allow us to stay present. Right? You and I have both been through some grieving over the last month from dear friends of ours that separately. My friend, your friend, they were separate people. We didn't know them each other like that. But we had to do that ourselves, right? We had to stay, as much as we were grieving and sad, had to stay present enough, reflect on the past and the fun of those people and the great things they did for us in our lives as great friends, not panic about the future. What's life going to be like without these awesome friends? Stay present enough, first of all, to go through funeral, go through that kind of processing and then to be able to function. Some phrases I use, Tim, with clients all the time, especially on the grieving side. And it sounds so cliche. Cliche, ish. But it really Works. It's like literally one moment at a time because we can get literally overwhelmed. Like I can't get out of bed, first of all, let alone think about going to work or let alone think about doing this assignment that's due if it's a student. So literally one second at a time. What's the one thing I need to do at this exact moment? Get out of bed.

Yeah. So for me, thank you for bringing that perspective. I think on the spiritual side of things to bring that aspect in. What I've kind of dealt with as I've kind of unpacked, my own tendencies to anxiety and those things, a lot of that is future oriented. So it's what's coming next. And I found that whenever I leave the present and I go into some imaginary thing of it's health or the unknown, the unknown, that's not a place in all those imagination outcomes. I'm always left to my own resources, my own devices. God isn't there. And the only way I can get through those scenarios is by controlling every circumstance around me, every person. And it's all about control. It's all about trying to contain the.

Chaos in our head. Right. And Tim, you said such a beautiful rooted pastoral comment there. So thank you. Maybe you are called and you haven't done it yet. You are a minister. But you know what I mean. When we think about the future the most, we are absent of God in it.

Yeah.

We're thinking about the darkness, we're thinking about the fear, the anxiety, the medical concerns, the frustrations. Will we have enough money for retirement? Right. We always get. We don't think about God in there. And so that's usually he's not there.

Where is he?

He's in the present and he's promised us the future. So we have no reason to go fear about that. Right. The famous Jeremiah 29:11. Right. I have plans for you to prosper, not to. Not to be ruined, essentially. There's the quick paraphrase. Jeremiah was giving that message to the captives. The Israelites were in bondage and slavery so you could get God. That's cruel. You're telling the people that they have a great future in store and God's just reminding you, I got it all. Just stay present. Be the best slave you can be right now. Be the best wounded woman you can be right now. Be the best broken man you can be right now. That sounds so weird to say. And so much of the Bible heroes, every single one of them that we know of, women and men, had some Awful, traumatic things happen to them, and we don't get the insights. Do we not think that Joseph was not weeping in the pit, waiting to be sold into slavery? That his brothers, the one he looked up to the most, had sold him out? We don't get that part of Scripture. Or when he's in jail after falsely accused by I lost Potiphar's wife or whoever it was, I can't remember who it was. Do we not think he's in jail frustrated and sad and broken? Right. So they had to stay present. And we see those wrestles in the New Testament when Peter's like, I'm not eating this meat that's not supposed to be blessed and holy. And Jesus meets him, go, quit worrying about the future and what's going to happen there. Just do what I ask you to do right now, which is eat the meat, go see the people. Right. And so that present perspective, theologically, emotionally, spiritually, hugely important at the exact same time, Tim, I think there is the paradox of we're staying present and we're staying positive within that perspective to build towards that future. Right. So if we have some health concerns, well, what are we going to do in the present that might alleviate some of that future concern? We get ourselves in better condition.

Yeah. Well, the phrase I've heard is, you know, well, what do you do? What's the next step? And the phrase is, do the next right thing.

Yeah. Do the next thing one right thing at a time.

Yeah.

And I often tell clients who are completely overwhelmed, one moment at a time, one second at a time, one minute at a time. A minute's better than an hour, hours better than a day, day's better than a week. I get very dramatic with it just to help them reverse engineer this process, because you're like, I don't know what to do about tomorrow. Well, first, do today. And that's what Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount, Right. He says, why are you worrying so much about tomorrow? Take care of today's got enough troubles of its own. Take care of it, move through. That's the first perspective.

Yeah. What's perspective two?

Perspective two is the safety perspective. So when we get hit with that massive trauma or that response to the trauma, or the sudden news of something that's so horrific, it makes us feel unsettled, insecure and unsafe. Because our world as we knew it, even within sovereignty of God, all of a sudden, is catastrophically different. And when we feel unsafe as humans, kind of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, that safety, security, Thing at the bottom of the pyramid there. When that is shaken, we have traumatic responses and we will get into survival mode, which isn't always bad. But survival mode, like future mode, can often be absent of God and us trying to take control of everything we possibly can to orchestrate things for the result that we feel we need in that moment and that actually creates more unsafety than safety. So in a common sense way, all of us, well, I shouldn't say all of us, some of our listeners might be in the rural, very wide open. They don't have a neighbor for 10 miles. Where you are in life. In the San Diego area, where I am here in the Chicago suburbs, we lock our doors, right? We're locking our doors at night. But what happens if you lock your doors and double check the garage is closed? Things like that, which I have to do at my house with all of our kids in and out. If I do that seven more times, obsessively, does that generate safety or fear? It generates more fear, more unsafety. Now I'm obsessively thinking if I don't lock this door again or double check this door again, something's going to happen. I'm linking it again to my control, my measures. And by being obsessed about the safety, we actually create an unsafe environment in our heart, soul, mind and spirit. And so people have gone through traumatic abuse and betrayal by a spouse or a child who acknowledges they're strung out on coke or something, you had no idea. And your whole world feels unsafe. By obsessively trying to create safety back again, we're going to be more unsure. So it is a paradox, but that's why it's a safety perspective. And if you are a believer in Christ, that's where we really lean in. Lord, you got us, you're taking care of us, you're shaping us. Even in the trials, even in the suffering. There I go through the valley of the shadow of death. You are with me. Your rod and staff comfort me. Right? We have to go back to those scriptures and go back to the idea that I am safe within the reasonable elements of safety in my culture, community and city. And if I am truly unsafe, if your house is broken into six straight days in a row, maker move, do something different to get safe rather than say, well, Elliot, I, I've been trying to do that, but it keeps being unsafe. What happens in the relationships? Tim, my boyfriend, keeps screaming at me and I, I feel unsafe and I'm like, well, did you break up? No. Did you challenge him about his inappropriate Communication to you, his anger? No. Well, then you're not going to feel safe.

Right.

And I'm not saying challenging an aggressive, abusive man is easy by any means. But if you feel you can't even confront them, then you need to leave and maybe just say it's over. And now, again, if you're in a marriage, that's a much different issue. You're in marriage with a demeaning man and you got three, four, five kids underneath. That's a whole different issue. But still, choosing a safety perspective. I'm going to be safe within this context, which should motivate us to better boundaries, better communication, more urgent supplication to the Lord, that begging and pleading with God to give us the safety and security we need and building the constructs around us within our capabilities without getting into obsessive control mode can help us get into that safety perspective. So people, Tim, who've been abused, interrupt me anytime you need a question. You know, I had a little too much coffee this morning, so I'm buzzing a little bit. So people who've been abused significantly, comprehensively complex abuse, meaning chronic throughout their entire childhood, in particular kids who've been abused, they don't really ever feel safe. And each and every day is a battle to feel safe, even if they are safe. Right. We've done a lot of work with foster care. We've done a lot of work with trauma abuse. People living in our home, not just counseling, actually living with us for long periods of time. And so it's fascinating to watch that neurologically, and I'm not trying to be their analyst, I'm trying to be their dad when they're living with me. But I can't help but just observe and see things, that even the safety in our home isn't safe if mentally they don't believe they're safe. And so what happens to kids and people who've been chronically abused like that, you think the next abuse is right around the corner. You just assume because it's happened so much and you couldn't control it. So if you can't micromanage everything to make it unbelievably safe, you just assume it's not going to be safe. And therefore an environment that's extremely safe is all of a sudden not safe. Emotionally, mentally, we create that. So when it comes to the future, Tim, and things with politics and things can be scary and what's going to happen, and if you sit there and think about how unsafe the future is, you will feel unsafe about the future. But if you say, gosh, it's kind of crazy and I'm not excited about it, but God's got it. I trust my Lord, I trust my Savior. The, the amount of non believers coming to the Lord right now, it's borderline revival level already. And it's pretty cool seeing what's coming. That gets me way more excited about this than the stuff that I can't answer. And I don't know how much my eggs are going to be next week.

Right, right.

It's focusing on the right spiritual things and recognizing we're safe with God.

Yeah, there's. I mean, just before you brought up that example of, you know, kids in foster care, a lot of what I was thinking about was just this idea of personal agency. Just an ability to evaluate a situation and then make the correct action steps. And for some people in my upbringing, just kind of the evangelical background I came from, there was a lot of self doubt that was instilled in me from my environment. And so that idea of personal agency, there was so much about like, well, I can only do this if I feel like it's God's will for my life or make that decision, whatever. And so that was something that took a long time to develop in me. But then when I think about the example you gave kids in foster care, do they ever get that back? I mean, is that something you ever can develop once it's been damaged so profoundly in your life?

Yeah. So these perspectives. The answer is yes, Tim. And these perspectives I'm talking about are adamantly necessary 100% of the time for someone who's overcoming complex comprehensive trauma, always getting their perspective set and recognizing. And usually it's needed immediately in the morning, right away. And so you talked about that agency piece. And so this is again, some. A dual look at this agency piece for those of us who have just had some mini little traumas, small traumas about work or something that's not life altering but frustrating, or somebody's going through massive big T, they call it trauma is once we recognize the need for agency and we even recognize what's the right thing to do right now, we got to do it immediately. We can't overthink it. So it's, it's. I give clients this continuum all the time. So here's my hands up on each side and there's a big decision right here and, or a little decision even if it's traumatically difficult to make a little decision even. And we tend to think, think, think, think, think, think, think, think, think, Think, think. And what should have taken literally maybe a second could take weeks. And so it's really creating this. And I love that it's prayer hands. I got a decision I need to make. I make it. It's the right decision. I'm getting the blessing from the Lord, and that's difficult. So even the decision to get out of bed, and I work with students on this all the time. As soon as you know you're awake or as soon as your alarm gets off, you got to get up immediately. There's not a choice. It's not, do I feel like getting up? Do I feel safe? Do I feel strong? Do I want to go to class? You just get up. It's the right thing to do. It's the right choice. And we move and the brain will follow us. Karen talks that about all the time. What's the right behavior? Let the behavior move forward and the thinking will follow. But if we sit there and get paralyzed by the thinking, you could literally, almost, in a way that feels safe and present, blow off something that's extremely important, maybe even lose your job because of it. Because at that moment, that felt like the right thing to do, and it completely wasn't. We will accidentally lie to ourselves within those if we're not activating quickly and walking through it. So the present perspective and the safety perspective.

Okay, what's perspective number three?

You know, you're going to love this one. This is the victory perspective.

Okay.

Right. This is the abundant life in Christ perspective. And again, without you. And I didn't do a whole lot of primer for this particular podcast other than a minute and a half. Yeah, but you have fed me in directions at exactly where I wanted to go. So thank you, Lord, for moving the spirit. Evangelical culture across the board preaches and teaches and exemplifies a fearful life more than a faithful life. And parents, parents and churches together as authority. And I'm both, so I'm calling myself out. Everybody's much. Do we teach our kids more about what to stay away from or what to pursue? Right.

Do we?

Yeah, exactly. And a fear based. Oh, my gosh, don't drink, don't, don't ever smoke, don't do this, don't do that, don't, don't talk to those people. Right. Automatically. It's like anyone who's not of the Lord is somehow more dangerous than some manipulative Christians that are going to torture you physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually. And I'm not against Christians, obviously. I'm just saying that we need to be recognizing how fear oriented and maintenance oriented our perspectives usually are. I just want things to be okay.

Yeah, right.

I just want them to be comfortable. And boy, you read scriptures intentionally, especially Jesus. Intentionally and all the way into revelation intentionally. There's some harsh words about comfortable Christianity and what I would call over protecting parenting. You know, we promote a lot of that fear in a contained, controlled life that is not the abundant life in scripture that Christ preaches.

Yes. And that's why I've had to read that verse. Perfect love casts out all fear like.

30 times today or just recently?

No, just in general. In general, yeah. Because it's like, absolutely. Is that really true? Because it's not. You know, again, a lot of those environments and circles I grew up in, that wasn't the M.O. so yeah, it's a real thing. But sorry, go on.

No, no, it's totally. I appreciate your insight and sharing on that example. And again, you and I are not condemning our parents. They raised us well. But there was a lot of fear based things going on that could be very profoundly difficult. And I know as a parent I'll fall into that sometimes too. And man, I preach and teach and counsel against this all the time. And yet it gets hard, things get scary, and your child starts to do something like, whoa, that's not going to be good. And then you're like, well, how many times in scriptures did we learn that the heroes learn best from confrontation and loss and challenge and leaving everything they know and having to do things that were dramatically outside of self. Why does God say we have to die to self and carry the cross with them, Even be willing to lose mother, brother, father, sister. And often we expect our unsaved friends or family members to respond like they're Christ followers. And when they do, don't we shun them rather than love them more? And it hurts. Right? And I understand that. I'm not saying it doesn't hurt. But we have to forgive quickly and recognize again that they don't have the light and the truth. How do we expect them to respond that way? And that's where Tim will fall into this mode of treating strangers better than we'll treat our loved ones, our family well.

Yeah, I mean, one thing I can think of that just kind of hits all these areas we've been talking about is it's kind of a silly example, but you know, something like, I, I've. I've found myself being hard on my son sometimes to like, make his bed. And I was listening to a podcast about parenting and they were talking about getting on your kids to make their bed. And the guy was just like, why. Why are you spending so much energy, you know, shaming your. Your kids about, like, who cares? Like, them making their bed, Maybe that's important, but it's not gonna be the defining thing that sets them up for life. And there's like, 15 other things you could be doing every morning. And I think about some of the things you've shared, just about the energy in your body and giving that out. Like, there's 15 other things you could. You should be promoting them to do that would set them up better for their day than. Than harping on them for making their bed. And to go back to our discussion, like, it's something that takes me on the present, because I'm like, if he doesn't make his bed, he's not gonna be good at this, and he's not.

Gonna be able to do this.

You go down that whole thing, and then, you know, my own safety is compromised because I'm not feeling in control of the situation or whatever. And then, yeah, just there's that fear cycle.

Fear cycle takes over.

Yeah.

Fear cycle takes over. And then condemnation.

He's a. You know, he's 10 years old, and he's just trying to.

Yeah. And in that parenting realm for a minute. Tim, you probably know this about me, but I am a obsessive bed maker. It's just for me, it's that whole make your bed, start your day thing. And so that's me. And I have a couple kids that make the bed fairly regular and a couple that never do. But I remember growing up, I can.

Show you my bed right now. It's not me.

When my kids were young, and especially with the foster kids as well that were in and out of the house, we would make the bed making a we instead of a he. And so I tried to turn it into a game, into a fun thing. Right. Because it was important to me in the context of my life's chaotic. I have so much stuff going on. If I came home and all the rooms were chaotic in my vision, it wasn't making me get into a fear cycle. It was just kind of stirring my ADHD in a negative way. And so since it was important to me, I just made it more of a fun process. And doing things with the boys, like, how many shots can we make between their little papa shot in the room, between getting their bed made and just make. Put on a timer or something? We're laughing their head off. They're Whipping balls up at the shot while they're trying to make their bed fast. And you know, for Olivia and her, she's my messmaker the most. And 72 stuffed animals on her bed. You know, be like, can we name each animal alphabetically while we put the bed again? Just creating this fun we ness piece. So I can still get what I kind of need as a dad without wanting my daughter Olivia, for example, who is more free flowing in energy and spirit and holy spirit as well, where it doesn't really matter if she makes her bed. It's just the context of the scenario. And so I think that that's a valuable point. And in this victory perspective, Tim, that's so important spiritually. And again, if we go all the way back to like the trauma recovery or traumatic things recovery, we end up what happens a lot, especially with the spouses I work with where husband or wife has cheated, adultery, and they're staying in the couple, they decided they're forgiving, they're going through grace, they're staying together. This holding on to that pain, holding on to the betrayal, it almost becomes like a good friend. And the research talks about, Tim, that we're afraid to release that pain completely and stop living through that lens of the pain completely because we have this false perspective that the pain will protect us from it happening again. So if I can stay rooted in this pain and this hurt, first of all, it helps me be appropriately angry at my spouse because they deserve some anger, of course, or some retribution or responsibility. But it ends up becoming like this appendage, this extra dark partner with us because we can't release it. We feel like the moment we release that and the moment we really trust again, then we're way too vulnerable. And then potential trauma comes back again. This time we'll never make it again. We're projecting. We're going into the future fear. And what I try to help couples recognize, if you've chosen to stay in and heal and reconcile, you're already vulnerable. What is not vulnerable about that? No matter what, it's just the reality of marriage or the reality of committed relationship or committed love partnership. I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying any of this is easy. But I'm saying getting into the victory mindset and right. I'm so forgiven by Christ myself. It allows me in victory to forgive my husband or forgive my wife and live outside of the fear, Live in the faith, live in the present, live in the safety, not think about what if it happens again. Right. Well, we could do that about everything in life, Right? Most of us have been in some kind of little car accident, some bigger. I've been in multiple big ones. And if I'm always driving, think, what if I get hit by this truck? What if I run? Someone runs this light? What if a drunk driver gets me? You'll be a paralyzed driver, and it'll be literally like a heart attack waiting to happen as you drive, because you're just gonna be so stressed out, and your brain's gonna act. That's one of the big things here. Your brain takes hold of this, Tim, and it doesn't recognize what's really happening, what's not. It's thinking it's happening because you're thinking it and you're feeling it. And so we got to understand these perspectives are super important. And if we can respond as if we're in victory and in safety and in present. And again, if you're a spiritual man or woman who loves the Lord, to trust God's word and remember will help your body not only settle down, but live in the very freedom you're trying to be free in, including from traumatic loss, pain, adultery, betrayal, whatever it may be.

The perfect bow on our conversation.

Thank you very much. I appreciate this time. And when we knew Karen was gone. This is really on my heart, so I'm glad I had a chance. Not that she wouldn't have added a ton of good things. I'm sure she would have. But thank you for partnering with me to walk through this. And you and I have been talking about a little bit of this in our own grieving cycles anyway, and it's critical and it's scriptural. I'm not trying to give us psychological jumble. These are scriptural perspectives that we need to hold on to and live them out, even in the midst of trial and gently and graciously call one another to the same standard, even when we're worried that our friend will be hurt, that we're challenging them. If you do it lovingly and graciously, it might be exactly the word they need to hear.

Yeah. And even in some of the grieving you. You talked about, like, all three of these things definitely line up in our helpful tool. I didn't know about these three things or what they were beforehand, but it's definitely ebbs and flows of the. The different levels of grief I'm going through. And so I really appreciate that. And why don't you pray us out?

Amen. Lord, you are the perspective maker. And father, it is tough even Those of us who are trained and paid to preach your word. It is still tough to stay in these biblical truths, these biblical perspectives about staying present even as we plan and have goals towards the future. But to stay present minded, present in relationship, present in healing, present in forgiveness, present in, present in grace. Lord, to understand that this world is not safe. And if we expect safety to come from the world, we're going to be constantly insecure, unstable and feeling unsafe that our safety is in you. Our safety is in your word. Our safety is in relationships, the positive ones, the one that build us and encourage us and strengthen us. And then, Lord, we are not to live this life as timid and passive, fear bound, white knuckled Christians. We are to live an abundant life, free. As your adopted heirs, Father, I'm hoping our listeners have been challenged and encouraged today. Maybe motivated, maybe inspired. Lord, we need to do this in community and find those loved ones and those partners and those podcasts and the churches that can preach and teach and share your freedom, your grace, your love. We thank you Lord, for the opportunity to share this with our listeners today and whenever it is aired. Lord, we pray it's the right timing, the right spirit, the right truth that's needed. So we thank you Lord, for this time to share these perspectives of your word and life in Christ. Amen.

Amen. Love and life with Dr. Karen and Pastor Elliot is produced by Tim May and executive producer Dr. Karen Anders Nabril. For more information about Love and Life, Please go to loveandlifemedia.com.