The Spiritual Path to Addiction Recovery (EP:949)

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Hey, mighty man of God. Dr. Joe Martin here with the Real Men Connect podcast, the show that helps Christian men like you win at what matters and challenges you the most as a man. That's walking faithfully with the Lord, loving your wife and others, leading your family well, and living God's purpose for your life and leaving a lasting legacy. Guys, let's face it. We all hate people lying to us. We all hate lies. But regardless of what you might think the worst lie isn't the ones that people, and maybe even our enemies or even the devil tells us. It's actually the lies that we tell ourselves because they're usually the hardest ones to disprove or debunk because we're the source of it. And research shows us that self awareness is one of the key predictors of success among mental health as leaders, as husbands, as fathers. And understanding ourselves and how we're uniquely wired opens up doors of possibility for connection, effectiveness as well as growth on a personal as well as a professional level. Well, guys, our guest today on the Real Men Connect podcast is going to help us to learn to understand ourselves a little bit better than we do so we can start walking away from and walking out of denial, defensiveness and self deception so we can improve our relationships with the people who matter to us the most. Guys, he's the best selling author of the Road Back to you as well as a psychotherapist, enneagram teacher, an Episcopal priest, and what I found out, a songwriter as well. And in addition to being a successful husband and father, he's also a grateful recovering alcoholic. His latest book is called the fixed how the 12 steps offer a surprising path of transformation for the well adjusted, the down and out and everyone in between. And we're going to talk to him about his book today and much more on today's show. So warrior Nation, please join me in welcoming my guest, best selling author, priest, dad and husband, no other than the one and only Ian Morgan Cron. Welcome to the show, Ian.

Joe, thanks. I'm really thrilled to be here and.

I'm happy to have you here. And we were talking before we came on and you are a very, very busy man and you have several interviews that you are doing today. So we are blessed to have you here on the Real Men Connect podcast. I'm excited to have you here, man. And Ian, I told you before we came on, I say I always ask our guests when they come on their favorite Bible verse that gives them inspiration from the word of God. And it could be a life verse, an anchor verse, seasonal verse, or maybe a verse that God just put on your heart this week. What is that?

What?

What gives you inspiration? Word of God.

Give me a scripture, I give you two. One is, one is.

Now that's new. We never got people, but we'll let you give us two. So thank you all.

I'll be quick. Right, so there's that familiar passage that I love which is, you know, Ephesians 2 for it is by grace. You have been saved through faith. And this is not from yourselves. It is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. So, you know, I. I could just end there, right? Like. Like, for me, that's one of my.

That's one of my Bible memory verses. So, man, that's. Yeah.

I mean, look, here's the deal. Like, I have such a big, robust theology of grace, and I think. I think it's the most amazing news in the world that there's. There's nothing I can do to make God love me more and nothing I can do to make him love me less.

Amen.

And so, you know, I get up in the morning just relying on grace and go to bed at night thanking God for it.

But you said two.

All right, I'll give you the other one.

You said it, not me.

I'm gonna give you a crazy one now.

Go ahead.

Let's go right back to the beginning. I just love the opening of all of scripture in the beginning. God. I love that scripture because it reminds me all the time that God is the initiator of relationship with me.

Yes.

And with everybody. Like, it starts with. It's God who is reaching to us. We don't need to strive. We don't need to work to win God's approval or love in the beginning God. Like, so God is the initiator of my relationship with him. And to me, that's just really good news.

No, in a sense, those scriptures are kind of connected to each other. They were loved, and we loved, and he created us so we can have that relationship, so he can enjoy the joy of enjoying us. Man. How cool is that? How cool is that now? And I told you I want to talk to you about your book the Fix, and. But I always like to get a snapshot or at least a glimpse of the man behind the book or whoever. Whatever thing that we're bringing a guy on the show to talk about. And you have a very. You got a lot of. You wear a lot of different, interesting hats that you've been. And I just found out when you were coming on that you were a songwriter. I didn't know that. You just told me that before we came on the air. But I want to take me back to when you were a child, man. Kind of give us a snapshot of what it was like for you growing up as a kid and how it led you where you are right now.

Yeah, I mean, I grew up outside New York City in a pretty privileged life. Grew up In a wealthy suburb of Manhattan called Greenwich, Connecticut.

Yeah.

And, you know, I. My father was a chronic alcoholic and drug addict, prescription drug addict. Died of that disease at, you know, in his early 60s, sadly never having really known a day of sobriety in his life. And, you know, addictions. We like to say in my family that addictions don't run in our family. They gallop. You know, my dad, me. My. My dad's two sisters died from alcoholism. I have another brother in recovery. I have a son in recovery. I. You know what I mean? Like, it just. I mean, it's just in the. It's in the water, brother. You know what I mean? It's just. It's. It's everywhere. And so I. It was a tough upbringing in some ways, as you can imagine. Growing up in a house where your. Your dad is, you know, struggling with addiction is. It's tough. It's a rough situation. Right. I was a very creative, sensitive kid, artistic in temperament. I loved songwriting. I loved theater. I loved music. I loved, you know, reading. I was a kind of a nerd in that regard and that. But that really set the course for my life. You know, I eventually, from all those experiences growing up and from my own journey of recovery, which began at age 27, you know, I. I became someone who dedicated his life to trying to help create experiences and insights for people that would deepen and improve their lives, like make sense of their lives and do something beautiful with them. So became a therapist, became a priest, did all these different things, right? And even songwriting was about that, right? Like, because how do you. How do you say in three and a half minutes something that's going to move the needle in somebody's life? That, that, that to me was just a wonderful challenge, you know, And I.

Looked at it that way, that, yeah, you only got a certain amount of time.

Oh, yeah.

I never thought.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Writing books is easy. I got 200 pages. I can unpack something in 200 pages. And I just did a co write yesterday, a songwriting co write with two wonderful artists, Cindy Morgan and Sandra McCracken. And, you know, it was a great session, but, you know, in five hours we came up with a beautiful song. And it's, you know, three and a half minutes long, but it captures something that I think will be really, really beautiful for people now.

And, you know, you mentioned about your child, about the alcohol galloping through your life. I came from a similar backgr ground as well with my mom and, you know, and everybody, pretty much everyone, everyone in my family, Drinks. Except me. And, and I know we're going to talk about the book, but. And I guess maybe I'm looking for understanding and guys who may. In. In my situation may be thinking the same thing, because I never. I was scared to drink because I saw the devastation that it was causing in our family, because I know that means you're probably predisposed to it. So when you see it ravaging your family the way it does, what is it? And you're, you know, you do psychotherapy. What is it that when we see that as in our family, that we're still drawn to it and we don't resist it? I. I consider myself an outlier that I, I don't. I mean, I drink no alcohol, but everyone in our family drinks.

Yeah.

You know, including my son now.

You know, but here's what's interesting right here. Here's where there's a yes and no to what you're saying. Right? Right. Like, yes, you don't drink. And as you, as we mentioned earlier on the show, you found another solution.

I found another. That's right. I completely forgot about that. Yes. You're asking. All right. And boy, if that was alcohol, oh, my goodness. Oh, yeah. Right.

So listen, human beings are kind of wired for addiction. Like, I don't think there's anybody in the human population that isn't. Doesn't live somewhere on the addiction continuum from mild to severe, right? And all addictions end up diminishing us. Right. And preventing us from living the kinds of lives that we. We really want to live. Right? And so think of it this way. Like, let's just go back to what I just said, right? So, yeah, you hear people say to somebody, oh, you know, Joe has a drinking problem, or Joe has a, you know, a porn problem or a gambling problem. And I'm like, okay, I understand why you're saying that, but let me rephrase it. Joe doesn't have a drinking problem. Joe has a drinking solution.

Right.

Joe has a porn solution.

Right.

Joe has a gambling solution. We tend to think of the. The behaviors or the substances as the problem, but they're the solution in the mind of the person doing it.

Right?

In the mind of the person. That's the solution. It's a solution to the dis. Ease they feel inside. It's a solution to anxiety, to loneliness, to disconnection from themselves, others, and God. It's, it's a. It's a way to make themselves feel comfortable in their own skin. It's, you know, etc. Etc. Etc go on and on and on. Right. So it's a solution now with the 12 steps. And I talk about this in the fix, right? What, what a program recovery does is it helps you have a spiritual awakening of sufficient force that it renders unnecessary your need for an unhealthy solution to your problem with living.

And that's, that's so good, Ian. Yeah. When I saw that, I'm like, that is a great way of putting it. Wow.

Yeah, I, I mean, I just. And I love the 12 steps because they're so, they're so consistent with the gospel. Like, to me, the 12 steps are just the gospel in miniature. Right. It's just like, well, here's the gospel in 12 steps. Go for it.

You know, And I love that. Now when you, obviously, with the family being predisposed to that and we all get to a point where we realize this is where we get, this is out of control for you. You said you started recovering, what, at 27, got recovery. When did you recognize, even though, you know, it was going in the family, that you. That, oh, this is something I need to get help with? What was kind of maybe that rock bottom experience for you?

Yeah. So I got to a point with drinking where I was, I had just, you know, been running, running and gunning so hard that I, I fell into a depression. I was having panic attacks, my wife was on me, and I went to a therapist and this guy was smart. And. And what I didn't know when I went to see him was that he was a recovering alcoholic, you know, so.

He didn't tell you that?

No, he didn't tell me that.

Wow.

And he said to me, he said, look, man, I can't help you. He said, this was in the first session. He's like, I can't help you until you get help for drinking because you have a problem. And in the book I talk. This is a great quote from Anne Lamott that I, that I mentioned. She says trying to reason with an alcoholic is like trying to blow out a light bulb, you know?

Right.

And so I was like, I do not have a problem, sir. And I walked out. Right. And about two weeks later, I had a bad bottom. It was New Year's Eve in New York City. And you know how that ended. And so my wife said, you, you got to get help. And I went back to him and he introduced me to a 12 step recovery community that, you know, introduced me to the steps and introduced me to a life where at that time, the necessity for a outside solution to an internal problem was no longer necessary.

You know, you mentioned, and I'm glad that you said that everybody's addicted to something. You wrote about that in the book as well, because we don't like to look at ourselves as, quote, addicts. And one of the things that they require in the 12 step program is that you have to. I love what you say. I'm grateful. Recovering alcoholic. They have you own it and say it. As far as my question is to you, how important is that for first step?

It's the only one you got to get right 100% you can. You know what I'm saying? Like. Like the. It's the only step you got to do 100% perfectly.

Yeah.

And that first step reads, we admitted we were powerless over blank. Now you fill in. You fill in your solution, right? Yeah, right. It could be porn, sports betting, gambling, you know, perfectionism, codependency, rage and anger. You know, whatever. Whatever your thing is, right. Like, whatever your addictive pattern is filled in there. We admitted we were powerless over a blank, that our lives have become unmanageable. Now, if you can't, with 100% certainty, own your powerlessness over whatever your preferred behavior, you know, substance or person is, like, if you can't own that, then you're not going to be able to get through the next 11 steps, right. Unless you are. Unless you have the gift of desperation where it's like, I admit I'm powerless, I'm desperate, I'll do whatever it takes to get free of this thing, then there's really no point in going forward. So, you know, that's the only one you got to get 100% right, you know, in.

And when I was in my recovery program, because you feel that, you know, it's the hardest thing is even getting to one of the meetings. I mean, when I first that. That walk from the parking lot to that, it's like walking across the Sahara desert. I mean, it wasn't that far, but, boy, I felt like the weight of the world was on my shoulder walking into that. That meeting. But all I remember is when the guys started opening up their mouths and admitting their powerlessness. It actually made me more powerful.

Yes.

Able to own my weakness.

Yeah.

You know, I just got strength in that for some reason.

Yeah, that's the. That's a gospel paradox right there, right?

Isn't it?

Like, yeah, man. Like, when you people think, oh, powerlessness and unmanageability, I'm like, look, man, can we. Look, if you're going to argue with me about whether or not you're an addict. I go, are you addicted to sin? Right. I mean, can we disagree on that one? You know, Paul, did you know, I. Why can't I do the things I want to do and I don't do the things, you know, et cetera, et cetera? It's like he's talking about an addictive pattern there. He just can't stop. He can't start doing the things he wants to do, and he can't stop doing the things he doesn't want to do. That sounds like an addiction to me. Right?

Yeah.

And so, you know, I never looked at it before.

That does sound like an addiction.

Yeah. Oh, for sure, right. And we all have. We none of us has one addiction. We have multiple addictions. Yeah, Right. And because we're trying to find solutions to internal problems, and then what happens is, are the solutions we come up with end up being bigger problems than the ones they were trying to solve.

Ain't that the truth?

Right? Yeah. And now you got two problems.

Yeah.

Now. Now you. Now the solution that has become a problem, and you still have the other problem. Right. Like, like. And you're. And the other problem is I just don't know how to be in the world. I don't know how to live. And all the distress that causes me requires some balm, some salve, some relief. Right. The problem is, if you look to. To anything else besides God to be the answer to your internal problem, it will become a bigger problem than the one you had before.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, it's funny you say that about now you got two addictions. I think about something my ex wife told me when I. When our marriage ended because of my addiction and I was getting help, right. I was getting recovery. So I'm thinking maybe I can win her back, you know, getting recovery. And after I started getting help for my porn and sex addiction, she said something that was so sobering to me. She says, oh, that's great. That's awesome. Now you work on your other stuff. I'm like, other stuff? I thought this was it. I thought that was my only problem.

Right, right, right.

No, that was just one of the other problems. That was just the one that broke the camel's back for me. She said, but no, you got other stuff. And I had to go through counseling to find out what that other stuff like. And then I realized, wait a minute, this porn thing wasn't my biggest problem. And I thought there was other issues. And like you said, looking for a solution for something that was going on internal. That wasn't the answer. You know, it was the solution, but the wrong solution.

And you know, when you. When you finally frame it that way, right? Like saying, oh, you know, Joe doesn't have a porn problem, he has a porn solution. Suddenly what comes up is compassion and empathy, right? It's like, oh, the porn wasn't the problem. Porn was the solution. Now once that's removed, like that's what the 12 steps teach, right? Once you remove that, then you got to replace it with something else or you're just going to be a miserable person not drinking or using porn. Right now all we got is a miserable person. Before, we had a miserable person who had at least some measure of relief.

But he's sober.

But he's sober. But once you get into the 12 steps, as you know, you get up to steps four through seven and suddenly you're focusing on what is wrong inside me, what is not working inside me, what is it that's causing me problems that I'm looking for false solutions for, you know, and yeah, it's a whole life program. It's pretty cool, you know?

And Ian, I. I can't speak for you, but for me, step four, making that moral inventory.

Yeah.

Was one of the toughest things. I don't know why. Yeah, it was so tough to do. And to tell you to be honest and thorough about examining yourself, your character, your actions, your faults. And that's what my ex wife was trying to get me to see. No, you got some other stuff. And it wasn't until I did that, the more inventory, that I started to even unpack some of that stuff. Was that a tough step for you or what was the toughest step for you? Doing your.

Yeah, you know, in my program of recovery, they always, they have this little joke, right, that most people, they get to the first three steps and then they hit step four and it's like, oh, no, I'm not doing that one.

Right?

So, so. And then they give up, right? So we call it. We call it the. The 12 step waltz. It goes one, two, three, drink. One, two, three, drink. 1, 2, 3, drink. Right? Because they end at three, man. And they go back out. They go back out, right? So step forward, usa, you know, made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. And all that's doing, man, is turning our gaze inward to look at the causes and conditions underlying our addictive behaviors. That's all it's going to do. And you should be able to do it, you know, with. With the support of God's love and grace. Remember I used that verse in the beginning, Right. It's like, if I just know. And this is what steps one through three does, right? It helps us realize, okay, God's on my side and I am in God's hands. That way, when you get to step four, you have the courage.

Yeah.

Because you have got on your side, the knowledge of God's love. You can go inside and start to look at, well, what are the character defects and the things happening in my life, the resentments that I have toward other people. What, you know, with the fears that have been dogging me my whole life, you know, the behaviors that have caused me shame and guilt and trauma. Like, what, what's down in there that I got to open up to another person about? But first I got to make, I got to make a list, right? And that's when people back off of the fire. But that's, that's where the money is.

You know, now in it. Because I, I, now it makes sense. But you. But I don't understand. If we, we're walking with God on step three and we get the four, what do you think is. Why are we so afraid of that fourth step? You talking about step one, two, three, drink. I don't want to tell you what they would call it if we're in sex addiction.

No, I don't want you to tell me either.

I don't want to say it. But what, what, what is the, what's the disconnect? What, what do you think is the biggest fear that's keeping us from going? Because it seemed like after you can get through over step four, it seemed like it, it kind of, you know, is, okay, so what's holding us back?

You know, man, who wants to look inward at the, at all the ghosts and the trauma and the sadness and the shame and the guilt over things past and present, our selfishness, our, you know, determination to, to run our own lives and the mess that we've made of them, you know, and the people we've hurt along the way. You know, it's like, nobody wants to do that. Right? But you. But, you know, Scripture tells us, man, like, like self examination is super important. Like, and the way to do it isn't to beat yourself up. Like, I always tell guys, like, don't beat yourself up, man. Like, just make a list and try to be as unshaming of yourself as possible. Right? Like, just. It's like, you know, in, in my, the, the book that we use in my program, it says, you know, it's like doing an inventory. If you owned up a grocery store, right? And you're just going through your inventory to figure out what. What is rotten and can't be sold and what's still good, that stays on the shelf. Right? And part of the inventory should be, what are my assets? Like, what's really great about it?

Yeah.

What's good?

Yeah, yeah.

Right. So it's really just kind of doing a objective look inside to look at your character defects. But listen, it. You know, my sponsor, right? And for your audience, you know, a sponsor is like a mentor in the program, right? He was so great, man. He's. He's from East Tennessee. He's. He's just the funniest dude ever, man. And he said, you know, Ian, the program will ask you to do things you were not planning on doing prior to getting here. You know what I mean? And he's like, and this is one of them. And. And. But of course, he said, that's good news, because you've run out of good ideas, so you might as well try this one, right? You might as well try this one. So, you know, I really think the fourth step is, like, one of the keys to just getting free. Because in the fifth step, it says, we admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being, the exact nature of our wrongs. So you're going to take all the stuff that you unearthed in step four, and you got to go tell somebody. Yeah, right. Like, oh, I got drunk that night in New York City, and I lost my car for three days because I didn't remember where I parked it. You know, that kind of stuff. And sometimes it can get pretty dark, right? And, you know, just the freedom that comes when you can go to a brother and say, look, this is what I. This is the truth about me. And then to see the compassion and the empathy and the understanding in their eyes, and they go, yeah, me too. I've done that. I've been there. I know what you're talking about.

You're talking about alcohol. But I thought when I started talking about. And I had to do the fifth step, and I'm going to some of my closest friends, and you're right. There was something freeing about that. But there was also that look, like, what?

But, you know, but you got to go to the right person.

You got to go to the right person, right?

You don't want to go to a. I was blessed.

I was blessed. I had some great, great friends and people I could share with. And. And. And. But it was. And I couldn't believe I was actually doing it. And they were there for me, like, show me the compassion. But at the same time, they were like, wow, I had no clue you were struggling that bad that you hit it very, very well. But that was also before how the Internet is now. Everybody's connected now. There was no FaceTiming in Zoom calls. You can go in your little silo and hide from everybody. But they were more. And. But they were very compassionate, but very shocked because very few people told me, me, too. When I share them. Stuff that I did.

Yeah. But you know what? I typically. I tell people, like, if. When you do your fifth step, when you take that moral inventory and then you go and share it with another person in the fifth step, like, it's really good. I'm. I try to always do it with somebody who's also in recovery. Yeah.

Versus saying, I did now I did nobody.

Yeah. Because. Because other people may not understand the journey.

Right, right.

And. But when you go to someone who's been in your shoes, it's like all you get is compassion, understanding, and love. I mean, I've heard some crazy fifth steps from people, and I'm never shocked. I'm just not shocked.

Me either. I'm never shocked by anybody's testimony. I guess if you've been there, done that, and got the T shirt, and then you talk to enough people in recovery groups, you hear it all pretty much. But it also makes us very compassionate and merciful towards people who are going through recovery.

You're actually right. Yes. Because we ourselves have received it. I mean, this is just the gospel. That's all this is.

Yeah.

You know, when people say to me, I don't do the 12 steps because it's not a Christian thing, I go, you have no idea what you're talking about. Like, you just are clueless. I bet you haven't even read them. You know what I mean? It's like, if you had, you would know. This is like James, right? Confess your sins to one another that you might be healed. That's all this is.

I want to ask you. You use a term in your book called spiritual homelessness. I've never heard anybody use that phrase before. Can you explain what you mean by spiritual homeless to our listeners and even how it's impacting your life and you're going through. Going through the 12 steps.

Yeah. So, like, look, I think all of us have this feeling by virtue of being human beings that, you know, on earth, there's this. This longing, this pining, this emptiness that we feel because we're not home, we're not fully in the presence of God, you know. Well, let me take that back. Yes, we are. But, but, but here there is this kind of, you know, Paul talks about that far off country, right? Like, there's this, we know that there's this, this place of utter communion with God, right? And yet we, we on this side of death, we don't, we don't fully realize it. And so there's a hole in the soul. You've heard that. And, and, and that's a very uncomfortable place to live, right? And there's always a piece of us that's saying life shouldn't be this way, you know, and, and you know what? When you say that, you're right. It shouldn't, but it is, right? And so that's why we often turn to addictions, right? Is, is to kind of anesthetize or numb that feeling of spiritual homelessness. And, and of course, that just makes things worse.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. You know, in your role as a psychotherapist and even as, I guess, as a priest, how has your professional roles influenced your understanding of addiction in the application of 12 steps from that perspective. Now, from that professional perspective, man, I.

Mean, I was at a, a meeting not long ago, and there was a guy there in the book, I call him Gene. Gene was the pastor of a big evangelical church. I won't tell you where, but Gene had a secret drinking problem. And one, one Sunday morning he shows up, you know, sozzled for church, right? Now he's drinking in the mornings. It's escalating, right? And he shows up and he gets in the pulpit and he is slurring his way through the sermon. And the elders, the elders realize what's going on and they, they usher him out, right? And they did the very thing you would hope they wouldn't do, right? They fired him. Instead of saying, oh, well, this is, this is, you know, this is what humans do. I mean, like, like humans suffer. They come up with crazy ways and strategies to deal with their suffering. This is, this is genes and let's help him. Let's get him some help, right? And then he'll probably be a better pastor than he ever was before once he gets some help, right? Like, but instead they just fired him, right? So about six months after that happened, I'm in a meeting at a different church in the basement where a lot of recovery meetings happen, right? And he said to me, says, ian, can you tell me why it is that I have Experienced more love, grace, kindness, welcoming encouragement down in the basement of church of a church than I ever did upstairs.

Ain't that something?

Right? And I'm like, well, I. I'm just glad you got a place, man, because I'm always telling pastors, you're asking me, like, you know, how does it inform my work? Like, as a priest, I'm always like, do you have any idea what's going on downstairs in those worms? Like, after hours? Like, there are miracles happening downstairs. And, and. And guess what? You could derive the same benefits from those steps that those alcoholics and addicts or sex addicts or alcoholics or gamblers who are down in the basement. Right. You could experience the same benefits they do from working the 12 steps. Even if you don't think of yourself in the category of addict, you know, that's what, you know, inspired me to write the fix. Right. It's like, because how many times in a meeting. I don't know if you experienced this back in the day when you were going to meetings, but people always say, man, I wish everybody had a program of recovery.

Yeah.

You know, And I'm like, yeah, so why don't we tell them about it? And that's why I wrote the fix.

Yeah. You know, and I. I don't know if you experienced this, Ian, but with me, I found myself actually getting angry with church.

Yeah.

I get it by going to recovery. Because I felt like. Because churches seemed to be different when I. As I was going through recovery, because I've been going to church the whole time and, you know, more so out of obligation, just trying to keep it together and whatever. Then when I go through recovery and I'm still going to church, it's like this started. Be this disconnect. I started getting upset and angry, and I'm thinking, and I'm talking to people in the church, I'm like, but you don't know me. I don't know you. And yet I can't wait to get to my meeting where they go to church, too. But we're talking about stuff.

Yeah. And I'm like, well, I mean, I.

Got kind of bitter. I had to forgive.

Yes. Yeah, I get that, man. I get that a hundred percent. And I hear it a hundred times a week. You know what I mean? And because listen, down in. In when you're with people in recovery or when you're working 12 steps, you start to realize that what people have upstairs is religion, and what you got downstairs is spirituality.

Oh, yeah.

You're. You're. You're you're into the real stuff. It's authentic, it's raw, it's real, it's. And you know what's so crazy is how, you know, when you see 12 step meetings on TV on some, you know, series, it's like they're never accurate depictions of what those meetings are like. Right. Like. Like in the rooms of recovery, the thing that always surprises people is how much laughter there is. Yeah, Right. So it's not a bunch of glum people sitting in a circle going, going, I can't stop watching porn.

I'm looking forward to going to my meetings, man.

Yeah. I mean, it's funny, right? Yeah, it's fun. And. And that's how the journey should be. So I think, you know, for people who are struggling with church and they're struggling with, you know, the hypocrisy or the, you know, the. The lack of realness to it, the 12 steps is a great place to go to, to feed your soul and to do your work, you know, and to develop an intimacy with God that you didn't know was available to you before you started working those steps.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Because, you know. Yeah. You got the most. I mean, I've shed some tears, a lot of tears in those meetings, too. But you're right, it. When you start to get. When you go there and you feel safe and secure, there's a lot of laughter on there because. Oh, yeah, you don't have to be embarrassed about anything. That's what I really. I think that was something that really. I enjoyed that. The fact that I could go there naked and unashamed.

Yeah.

People will laugh with you. They would cry with you. But we had.

It was.

It was my safe place, and I could not wait to go. I remember even telling the guys when. I remember when I went to my first meeting, and the guy who was leading the meeting, he says, hey, you know how to say, keep coming back. It works if you work it, you.

Know, kind of thing.

Right. He says, make sure you come back. I said, hey, if we're going to be talking like this and sharing like this, dude, if I am not here, call the. Call the hospitals, right? Call the morgue and call the jail. But I said, I'm going to be here because I need this.

Because if I was so Joe, what was it? What was it you needed?

I needed understanding and compassion. Even though I felt dirty and disgusting and I felt so bad. And to think that I could still feel that, but at the same time feel love, because I thought I was now unlovable.

Why the heck isn't that happening upstairs, Jeff?

Yeah. Why isn't that happening upstairs? You know, because the thing is, we're not opening our mouths, talking about it.

Yeah.

Because we're afraid.

Yeah. And also because in some ways, I think part of it is, is that for people upstairs in the sanctuary, the problem is they've. They've never been blessed with the gift of desperation. They're. They're not desperate people looking for a savior. Wow. Now, I'm not saying that about all of them. Right, right. But on the whole, God is more of a preference than a desperate need.

Yeah.

Right. And in those basements, man, it's like if there's no God, we are all done for. Like, you know what I mean? And. And. And they've had such a pro. We've had such a profound experience of grace in. In recovery that. That we can't wait to be with each other and to share life in all of its realness. And we're not doing any image management. We're not trying to impress people with how many Bible verses. We're not walking around with the clothes that we want. People, you know, know, we're not dressing up our sin.

No.

Right. We're not, as I say, we're not rolling the turd in glitter. You know what I'm saying? Like, we're just. We're just coming in as turds, man. Just coming in real. And. And that's where the healing takes place, man.

Yeah. You know, I keep thinking about with my kids, they. My. My. My wife, she's been in recovery. I've been in recovery. And when we talk to kids, they said, they, you know, we talk about God a lot, and we always talk about when you have a relationship with the Lord. They said, but we do. We believe in God. And I said, now, I can put it in better words where you said it. No, y' all have a preference. I said, but. I said, but trust me, when you really know him, when you are going to need him the most, and you hit that bottom and you realize he's the rock at that bottom, and it's not mommy and daddy that can save you, then, you know. But basically, what you're saying, when you are so desperate, you have to. I didn't look at it as a gift, Ian. I never thought that was a gift. It is a good thought, man. I'm trying to help people, not have to get that desperate, you know? And I. But I not realize that God can use that as a way to reach you and. And reunite a real relationship with them. Not this one. That's superficial, I said. But trust me, when you go through something and you go through the valley, you're going to know what that is. And it's funny because I've watched them now go through. And now seeing them experience that. That gift of desperation that, wow, mom and dad couldn't help me. It had. If it wasn't for the Lord, I wouldn't be here. And so that makes perfect sense. But I never thought about it as a gift, though.

Yeah. I mean, listen, we talked about addiction on a continuum from mild to severe. Right. You know, I wasn't in your shoes, so I don't know where you were on that. That. On that continuum. I was on the severe side. Right. And you know, when you've got a bad chemical substance problem, you know, that's a. You. You got some. You got some work to do. Right. And. But the fact of the matter is, the more desperate you are, the more of an experience. When grace breaks in, your experience of it is so much more valuable and beautiful. And Val, you know, it's just like, oh, thank gosh. You know, if you're low on the continuum, man, if you're just like, you know, life's okay, and I got Jesus too. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, okay, well, I mean, that's fine. I mean, I can't dictate to you how your life goes, but I. I do see desperation. Having a moment of reckoning in your life as being can be an invitation to something incredibly beautiful.

Yeah. Deeper relationship. Because, man, it has taken me to a different level. And I grew up in church. I grew up in church since I was a kid. But it became. It was different after I went through that. You know, I want to know, and how has integrating the 12 steps into your life reshaped your relationship with God and influenced your. Your life as a Christian man?

Yeah, well, it's been revolutionary. Right? Like, first of all, Joe, most guys don't have a plan for spiritual transformation. Like, they just don't have a plan. Like, they're going to church, they read their Bible, they pray, and all those things are good, but it's just growing.

They hope we get better.

Yeah. Just hoping we're growing. Like, no way to kind of like, well, what's the plan? Well, I don't go to Bible study, and I do this, and it's like, okay, well, the 12 steps gave me a plan or a design for living. So we don't have time to go through all the steps. But, but let me just say this. When you look at steps one to three, it's about deepening and repairing your relationship with God. Step. Those are the first three steps. In fact, the first three steps could be put this way. Step one, I can't. Two, God can. Step three, I think I'll let him.

Right, right.

So it's just about let's, let's, let's get that straight first. Then steps four through seven are about repairing and deepening your relationship with yourself. Then 8, 9 is about deepening and repairing your relationship with others dead and alive. Right. And then steps 10 to 12 are just about how do I cultivate a lifestyle that supports health and growth in each of those three aspects of my life moving forward? That's it. Like, and when you do the steps, here's the big thing everyone thinks, oh, you do the steps. And the whole point of the steps is to stop watching porn or you know, going out with prostitutes or, or it's, it's to stop drinking or stop taking drugs or stop overeating or to stop gambling or to stop workaholism, whatever. It's like. No, actually that's not the stated purpose of the steps. The stated purpose of the steps is to facilitate a spiritual awakening of sufficient force that it just renders unnecessary your need for a substance or for a behavior. Right, right. It's like the point of it is, the point of the steps is to draw you closer to God than you have ever been before.

So you're not spiritually homeless.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And then when, that's all, when you take care of those three domains of your life and you do those steps, then suddenly you're going to have a peace and a joy and a freedom that you didn't have before.

Yeah, absolutely. And I love man. That's a great way you, you summarize and put the steps that way, because I think that's easy to understand and to grasp. You know, how is your understanding of manhood? Because you're speaking to men out there listening to this. And how has your understanding of manhood evolved through your recovery journey? And what messages do. Would you give to men struggling with being vulnerable in the context of addiction and faith? Because we know what it takes when we go to a 12 step program and get a recovery program. And it takes honesty, transparency and vulnerability. But what, what message do you give to them? And based on your journey through manhood?

Yeah, doing recovery, I think one of the problems men have is they confuse vulnerability with weakness. And vulnerability is not weakness. In fact, what, what is it that actually requires true courage? Vulnerability.

Yeah.

Right. Coming off as a tough guy, I got no problems, or if I got problems, I'm man enough and all that stuff, right? It's like, hey, dude, that actually is cowardice. Like, you're just, you're just on the, you're just playing defense here. But, but true, true courage requires vulnerability. Telling the truth, being honest. Right? And you know, so I would, what I would tell guys is do not confuse vulnerability with weakness. Like, and if you're struggling with addiction, I think every man is at some level, I mean, I guarantee you right now, at least 10% of the men listening to this podcast have a significant unconfessed addiction happening in their life. Wow. At least 10%. Now I'm just, that's just off of National Institute of Health Statistics I'm working with. It's probably greater, it's greater than that.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay. And, you know, so part of it is I gotta, I gotta find a community of people I got, or I gotta find a program for living like the 12 steps and begin to do the work. Work that will disentangle me from this problem. But that's going to require vulnerability. It's going to require honesty. It's going to require that I, as you would put it, man up in ways that I haven't done before. And, and that will require that I become weak before I get strong. Because remember, again, this is just a gospel idea, right? For when I am weak, then I am strong. And, and for some reason, guys think, you know, for when I am strong, I'm really strong, right? It's like, that's not what it's saying.

I can hide my weaknesses.

I can hide my weaknesses.

Ian, let's let you know we're going to put our money where our mouth is. We mentioned, I mentioned before about the inventory taking, that that was the toughest part for me. And we have to do that self reflection to find out, man, what really are some character flaws that I have. And I want, you know, I want the men to know that we're leading by example. One of the biggest things for me when I was doing that moral inventory that I didn't know, I didn't know how deep my abandonment issues were. I had no idea because I thought I was strong because I didn't need anybody growing up in the hood, you know, not having a dad there and everything. And then you, you had to survive on the streets. And it's about being tough and everything. And I don't need a dad. You know, I didn't know that that was going to impact so many of my other relationships after that, of not trusting and so realizing that I had abandonment issues and control issues out of that, I didn't see it. I didn't know. And so me sharing that, even with the people listening, that's part of that step, that step four. And that's not something I'm proud of, but it's something that helped me to. It's kind of like I had to purge that for my system to be. To admit it that that was it. Now I'm going to put you on the spot, Ian, in your moral inventory, doing your fearless moral inventory. What was the most surprising thing that you felt was significant that you had to acknowledge that you say, wow, I didn't know. And this. Knowing this and acknowledging this and dealing with this has really changed my life.

You know, that's a great question. There were a couple of things. One is. And, you know, maybe you resonate with this. I just. I just didn't realize how much my father had broken my heart.

Really? Yeah, that. That does resonate with me.

Yeah. I just, you know, it. My. You know, he broke my heart. And I had. And I. And I was carrying a lot of resentment and pain. And until I let go of that resentment and pain, I was going to keep looking for solutions like alcohol or drugs or something to. To keep it down. Right. I'd say another thing that I learned because, you know, you start to see patterns when you do a fourth step. Like, oh, wait a minute. That just. I wrote about that a minute ago. Right. Like, it just keeps coming up and coming up. You see patterns. And, you know, a pattern that was true of my life is I was really badly bullied, and I was bullied at home. I was bullied when I went to school. I was a small kid. I wasn't very athletic, you know, and I just, you know, there were a lot of bullies. And. And I didn't realize the degree to which, you know, that had prevented me from growing up in ways that I needed to grow up. Like, it made me, like, being bullied so much had created me a real fear of conflict, of being able to stand up for myself, of feeling defenseless and powerless in certain situations, in ways that just weren't helpful to me. And so that, you know, those two things off the top of my head come to come to mind where I was like, oh, wow, there's a pattern there. And again, this is part of the difficulty and the joy of working the steps. Right. It's like it's going to unearth this stuff and you're going to be able to see. But listen, you can't move forward in life unless you're dealing with truth. For as long as you're not dealing with truth, you're living in spiritual unreality. And there's no moving forward toward healing or recovery or toward anything else when you're living in a spiritual unreality.

You know, I heard someone once say in that, he said, if you don't, you don't know what you're dealing with and you don't deal with it, it's going to deal with you.

Yeah, yeah.

You're going to have to deal with it. And I. Even what you're sharing, I can see. You can see how it impacts, you know, us, because we have a similar experience about film, about with dads, that I didn't know how much it impacted my identity as a man. Bullying has to impact your identity as a man. I'm not strong enough. I'm not man enough, or I don't have what it takes to be a man. And not having the affirmation of the Father and all that stuff goes into our identity, which is going to build a false identity, because that's not who God, what God calls you or what God says about you. And you can see how if you don't deal with that, that will eventually come back and deal with you. And it dealt with me in a very, very harsh way that made me seek validation. Like you said, there's the solution. Let me get validation in women.

Yeah.

Let me get. If I can be. If I could be the man with these women, then this is going to make me feel more like a man.

Yeah.

And all it was is medication.

You know what? Yes, exactly. And so, and I want every man here to hear me say this. We are not outliers, you and I. Every single guy listening to this program is using something outside solutions to solve internal problems that are causing them bigger problems than the ones they're trying to solve. And unless they have a program of recovery. And I think, you know, you were saying, like, you know, we were talking earlier right before you hit record, and you said that, you know, the answer was discipleship. Right. And I agree on one level, and I would say that discipleship in its best form is recovery work. You, you are recovering in the process of being discipled by someone. They are teaching you the journey of recovering yourself.

Right.

In God. Right.

I was gonna say my Identity in Christ. There you.

Yeah. And so. So you are recovering your true self, who you really are.

You are. Absolutely.

And so that's why recovery and discipleship go hand in hand with each other, you know, because.

Because I know those were the pivotal things that were the beginning of the change and transformation. And I realized I could not have done it with. If I never found that recovery group. I mean, I don't even want to think about what would have happened to me, you know, it was recommended. Recovery group was recommended by a counselor I was seeing.

Yeah.

She said, you need to go. And I'm thinking, what? I'm gonna go and talk. Talk about what? Tell people what? And she said, just trust me. And that day I went there, it changed everything. I'm like, wow, I'm not alone.

Yes.

Which is, you know, and I'm looking at the time and. And we're. But I'm gonna see. I want to squeeze in two more questions. I don't know if I can squeeze in two or maybe one, but I will try to squeeze in two.

1.

You wear a lot of different hats. And we also know when it comes to recovery that a lot of this is stress related because we're trying to do so much. We're trying to do it all perfectly. How do you maintain emotional balance under stress today so it doesn't take you down a bad path where you're now looking to medicate and looking for outside solutions to internal problems? What do you do?

Yeah, man, I have a pretty. I have a pretty structured life. And I think, yeah, I mean, it's pretty structured. I do a lot of different things, but it's pretty structured. You know, I begin every day with a cup of coffee and spiritual reading, prayer, journaling, gratitude, and meditation. You know, just being. I like to say I call meditation gazing into the eyes of love that are gazing back at you. You know what I mean? Like, that to me is just. Just Christian meditation, right? I'm just gazing with my eyes of love into the loving eyes of God. And then, you know, I have regular meetings that I attend. I go to three, sometimes four meetings a week because, like you, I love them. I just think they're a blast, right? I mean, I. And they're meaningful and they're deep, and I learn things there, and it's real and it's full of laughter and tears, and it's just all good stuff. And you know what? I. This is going to sound. May not look like it from my. My picture here on the screen, but I meet with a Trainer five days a week.

All right?

So I'm, you know, lifting and doing mobility work five days a week. And I, you know, when I'm not doing that, I'm on an elliptical working out. So. And, you know, my wife and I are big into eating and nutrition, so that's, like, a big thing. In fact, right when we were starting, I was eating my organic cauliflower soup, which, you know, that's how we eat around here, you know? Know what I'm saying? And. And so, you know, for me, it. It's like, what. And, you know, those are gifts of my recovery, right? Like, because I. I just learned, okay, I got to take care of myself. Like, I got a busy life. I'm on the road a lot. I have a lot of work I got to get done, and. But I have to make sure that I'm. I'm honoring my body and my heart. And, you know, I still see a counselor every two weeks, you know, just to check in. So I just. Look, look, you know what humility is? Humility is just the recognition of your limitations, right? In. In recognizing. I got limitations, right? When I'm arrogant, I'll overwork, I'll overdo stuff and. And. Or not do stuff or whatever. It's like, when you know your limitations, you need. You'll start to show up for your life, right? And. And fill in the gaps. So when I get stressed, man, I got numbers I can call, but I don't really get there a lot because things like good diet, exercise, church prayer, life, you know, you know, playing, you know, like, having fun. I mean, these are just things I have built into my schedule in my life that, you know, a lot of people don't take time to. To do. And I recognize that some of you listening are dads of four kids. And, you know, I recognize that's a special season, right? That is a season where, you know, being. You don't have the luxury of time that I have. Right.

Like a year. So we. We've been.

Yeah. But, you know, I can look back and see. I can look back and see I could have done a much better job.

Yeah. You know, and it's funny because as you're sharing, I'm thinking, wow, I'm doing a lot of the same things. I wish I could start eating better, though, like you. But.

But.

And I tell our guys, even in our community, and I'm like, I go to counseling. They said, man, you're running this huge organization, helping Men. They said, why? I said, because I'd rather see A counselor once or twice a week than see him three times a week. You know, when things are breaking down, I'm doing it to maintain, to make sure I got balance. And I thought I was structured because I'm a little bit ocd, but I realized, no, it's because it's necessary to have some type of structure in your life, especially if you are recovering. A recovery too, as well.

Here. Here are the three most courageous words a man can utter. You ready? I need help.

I need help.

Yeah, I need help. And so, you know, I can get up every morning and say, okay, Lord, I'm gonna need some help. And that help is going to come in the form of prayer. Working out, having fun with friends, making sure I make time for that. I need walks, I need, you know, just. I got to eat well, I got to hydrate well. I got to do all the basics of life to make sure that I'm operating optimally and being the best version of myself I can be. And when I do that, I'm okay. When I don't do that, you know, I get wrapped around the axle and bad things.

Imagine though. And he said, God, I need help today. And then you do none of that. God, I thought you want to help me today. I was looking for. What do you mean? And so, yeah, it's taking it advantage of the help that he sends. And Ian, I'm going to let you close with this last question because I. There's a man out there listening to this, and he's heard us talk about this. He knows that we're both going through the recovery process and maybe he may not recognize he needed one, but now he said, man, I need to be part of something like that. If you could speak to that man and give him one piece of advice as he's going into his early struggles with this and he recognizes that may I may have a problem, what would it be? What would that one bit about? I know you could tell them a lot of things and hopefully they'll go and get the book. The book is great. But what would that one piece of advice you would give him right now, Speak to him.

You have to get honest. You got to find a tribe that can help you like. So whatever the problem is, if you got a drinking or drug problem, get to an AA meeting, get to an, you know, get. If you got an eating problem, go to Overeaters Anonymous. If you got a gambling problem. There's. There's hundreds of 12 step groups that could help you. They're all out there ready to go. They're online, they're local. You get on Google, find them. You know, just look them up online and try five. Go to five different meetings, right? Because they're all different, they all have different flavors. And find the one that works for you, right? Get to a therapist, get to a counselor and, you know, begin to do that work alongside of doing some 12 step work. But get off your butt, like, don't, like if you're stuck, get unstuck and get out the door and start doing the things you got to do and then stick to the plan. And, you know, that's about as. And the nice thing about the fix the book is let's say you don't want to go to a meeting and you don't. You're not that convinced, you know, but you want to check it out. I don't know, but you can. You just want to check it out or. Because you're on the mild side of the addiction continuum, right, like whatever it is, you could get five brothers, right? Or friends, couples even, you know, and decide I'm, we're going to do the steps together. You get the book and the workbook and just form your own little support, little 12 step group and let it last for three or four months and go through the book and derive all the benefits that, you know, you and I have from working a program. Yeah.

Thank you so much for that. And I'm hoping that somebody who listening to this will encourage. I know you may have been praying to God, asking for a sign. I don't think there's a better sign than this. You found this podcast, this episode, and you heard what Ian has been sharing with us and we're both sharing our stories. This is the time. This is the time to do it. And, man, we've come to the end of our show today, but don't you worry, we'll be back to do it again with a new guest with new insights, new lessons. So make sure you don't miss it. And guys, I like to thank my guest, Ian Morgan Cron for joining us today and being so gracious with this time. Ian, I can't thank you enough, man. Thank you for being on our show today. We really appreciate you, bro.

Joe, it was really fun. Thanks for having me.

And it was fun having you here, man. Ian, quickly, before I listen, we've been talking about the fix and, and I'm hoping that all of you will go out and get a copy of it. But for our listeners, if they wanted to find out more about you, about the book or about what you're doing, the kind of work that you do. What's one of the best ways they can connect with you?

Sure. So you can go to on my socials, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, all that stuff that's at Ian I A n Morgan M O R G A N C R O N. You can go my website, which is Ian morgancron.com and learn more about all the various things that I do, including information about the fix, which is available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, independent booksellers, wherever you buy your books, books a million wherever your place is, you can get a copy of the fix there.

And guys, who knows? I'm thinking maybe we might even try to run a contest that we can give away one of Ian's books for you guys. But we'll definitely put all his contact information in the show notes so you'll be able to reach out to get the book, maybe reach out to you and send them some questions, show them some love. But man, guys, definitely, definitely, definitely, guys, quickly do us a favor. First of all, if you like what you heard today, if you love this episode, if you haven't already, subscribe to the podcast. And so you don't miss any future episodes that we release, because we release an episode every Monday and Wednesday. But more Importantly, take about 30 seconds and share this podcast with a friend or a family member that you love and care about who may be struggling with any addiction that you can think of. This might be the episode. Maybe say, hey, maybe I do need to get some help and it's the easiest way to bless them and at the same time, best way to help them get this program in the hands, ears and hearts of men just like you. Who knows? The episode you share could be an answer to some man's prayer. So please don't keep us a secret. Hit that share button and bless someone today. Until next time, I'm Joe Martin, your man builder with realmenconnect.com reminding you that we are males by birth, but we are men by choice. So each and every day, choose to be the man that God has called and created you to be. Because a male is a terrible, terrible thing to waste. So until next time, stay strong, stay blessed, stay connected. Because real men do connect. But most importantly, stay in God's grip and we'll talk to you soon.

Thank you for listening to the Real Men Connect podcast with Dr. Joe Martin. Real Men Connect isn't just a podcast. It's a mission, ministry, and movement to help good men become the great men God called and created us to be. And the best is yet to come. So if you enjoyed this episode, go ahead and leave us a review in itunes. It really helps us to build the podcast and to reach, teach, and impact more men, all for the glory of God. And make sure you check out realmenconnect.com to get our free tools and resources to help you go from good man to great man. God's way. Again, that's realmenconnect.com thank you for listening. We'll see you in the next episode.