Managing a Narcissist With Sarah Kamoto

Hey, girl. Welcome to the get yout Guy coaching podcast. My name is Anwar White, but you can just call me your own personal dating and relationship coach. Each week, you'll hear actionable advice, tips, and strategies that you can implement in your own love life. I'm talking about healing your heart, dating effectively, and understanding men so that you can, you guessed it, get your guy. Are you ready to level up your love life? All right, let's go.

I never felt the way I do without anyone but you.

Thank you so much, my loves, for joining me today. I have a very, very special guest with me. Her name is Sarah Komodo. Welcome. Thank you so much for being here.

Yeah, thank you for having me. And I'm glad we got together, managed to do this. Yes, I'm a narcissistic abuse recovery coach specializing in high conflict co parenting. But obviously, when you've been in that kind of relationship or marriage, or we might have family members of that nature, there's healing to do as well as parenting and as well as, you know, quote, unquote, co parenting. So it's the whole gamut.

Yeah. You know what's so funny? Your work. I know at least eight women, just like in my family and friend circles, who have been through exactly what you, you teach, what you help with, what you coach with. So your work is so amazing and so beautiful, and I am so honored to have you on my podcast because I know that not just my family and friends are going to get so much out of this, but so many women from around the world. So how did you get into this? Girl? I'm sure you have a story of your own.

Yes. This is like the summarized version. Summarized version. So normally when we found ourselves, usually after the case that we've experienced narcissistic abuse or hidden abuse, emotional abuse, usually in a romantic setting. As we start doing the healing and digging deep and peeling back those layers, the hard work, you realize that it started long before that person could have been another relationship. Or maybe you've had a series of relationships that were always the same kind of thing, just a different person. Or it stemmed from childhood, how you were brought up. Not necessarily with narcissists, but maybe parents who were emotionally unhealthy or didn't know how to regulate their emotions. So usually when I work with people, it's like, well, I didn't grow up. My parents were fine. They loved each other and they were together. It doesn't mean that you necessarily were raised by narcissists to end up in this dynamic. But Maybe emotionally unhealthy parents or unhealthy coping mechanisms or they couldn't regulate their own emotions. So you learn how to be a certain way, which makes you a perfect target for narcissists or toxic people or high conflict people. So. So I had my own experience, ended up marrying and having a child. So that's why co parenting is like the area that I specialize in. Because you can't easily go no contact. You can't block them, you can't go no contact. You have to manage the situation as best you can whilst protecting yourself, protecting your children and keeping them at bay. Because you have to live your life. You can't have your life on hold just because they're up to their usual antics, which they are. They never stop. So, yeah, so that happened. Had my experience, did my deep inner healing work, did all the things and realized that by sharing my experience and inspiring other people, that grew and grew and grew. And that's how it evolved into helping others in the coaching space because there is a big need for it and just raising awareness because you don't often know you're in it until you're out of it and you start researching and then it snowballs from there and then the blinkers come off and it's like, oh, my God, that's what it was. Word by word. Like, people say it was like I was a fly on the wall in their marriage because they resonate with what I say and it's because their behavior is patterned. But yeah, long story short, that's how it went.

Girl, you already broke it wide open. I have so many questions already. Right. You talked a little bit about kind of how you were raised in parental relationships. And one of the things that I know while working with a lot of smart, successful, highly educated women of color, that that actually often stems from their mother. Black mothers often have these narcissistic traits that they pass on to their daughters, not their sons, their daughters. And so I'd love for you to talk about maybe if that was your experience or if you've seen that in your work as well.

Yeah, it's something that's the real big connector is that the mother is the. You know, it's usually narc mums. There are narc dads as well. But the mother is the child's usually closest connection in the early years. So that's why I don't want to blame narcissistic mothers, because narcissistic fathers also have a part to play. If your father was a narcissist and your mum was the enabler or codependent. But narcissistic mothers and their daughters have a different relationship, I think, to narcissistic mothers and their sons. And usually it's like living vicariously through the daughter or down putting a lot of pressure on them to, I guess, be like them or to be perfect. And I think it's very often that daughter of the narcissistic mum doesn't necessarily turn into a narcissist or have narcissistic traits. It's usually like people pleaser. That's right, a people pleaser. Wanting to be the good girl, wanting to get approval, whoever. Because approval is love. So narc mothers do have a lot to answer for.

Sorry to interrupt, but I see this a lot, actually, in the black community just because of the experiences our mothers and grandmothers have had. It has instilled with them this chip on their shoulder. Right. This. I'm going to prove to the world that I'm worthy through my children. And so they put all of this pressure and make sure that they're perfect to make sure that every hair is in place. There's no running your stockings. You're doing perfect in school because you represent me and you are me. Right. Because the society has really shat on me so much that I have to get my rocks off. I have to secure myself validation. My daughter. Right?

Yeah. Validation from that. So culturally, yes. And there's a lot of other things at play there, but it's that generational kind of trauma. And also how within the black culture people were raised. And culturally, I mean, it's not just black culture, it's other cultures as well. But let's talk about black culture, how you were raised and how it just filters down from generation to generation. And when you don't know any better, they just carry on the cycle and it filters down until somebody puts an end to it and breaks that cycle.

Yeah.

Not to go into too much detail with my own family dynamic, but it's not a coincidence that myself and my cousins, not a lot of them have good relationships with their parents.

Yeah.

Their parents aren't awful. That's my aunts and uncles. But there's a lot of trauma within the family dynamic that hasn't been worked through.

Yeah.

So there's no coincidence there.

Right. And also in our communities, a lot of the time, we didn't have the resources to actually get the help that we needed to, as you said, heal. Right. And get back on kind of track. Right. We've talked a Little bit about narcissism and narcissistic behavior, but we haven't necessarily defined it for the audience. So please, if you would, can you let the audience know what is narcissism or narcissistic behavior and how do narcs operate?

Yes. You know, in life, there are people. I use this example. So in this sense, you have people who are, let's say, the empaths, the I'm possibly codependents, depending on whether you've done any inner work on your healing. So this end, you got the empath, this, and you have the person with npd. And this is the spectrum. There's a whole line. A healthy amount of narcissism is here in the middle. We should all aim to be there in the middle.

And so everyone has a little bit of narcissism inside, Is that what you're saying?

Yeah. Well, we should do for our own benefit. So we should be able to set boundaries. We should be able to protect ourselves from outside forces that are negative or not in alignment with us. Yeah, it's just unfortunately, on one end is the extreme narcissist with narcissistic personality disorder, and on the other end is the empath. And they seem to gravitate towards one another because one wants to take and one wants to give no matter what.

Yes.

So usually, like, let's say in a romantic relationship, the signs are like, things will escalate very quickly. It will seem like a dream come true. These are all red flags. But it will seem like a dream come true. They'll be very familiar, overly familiar with you, like wanting to get really into getting to know you. Usually not in all cases, everything you've ever hoped for. They mirror you in the very early days, so it feels very comfortable and they feel very safe because they're just mirroring you. They're just. Oh, to simplify. Oh, I really like tea. Yeah, I love tea, too. Oh, my God. Like. Yeah, I've never met anyone like you before. We were so similar. And I feel so comfortable, comfortable around you. So it's basically. If it feels too good to be true, it usually is. Yeah. And that facade will last for 3, 6. Couldn't even last for, like a year until they've secured you as narcissistic supply, which means their guard can come down, which the mask can come off, and they can start showing their true colors. But by then, you're in love with them, you're attached to them emotionally. So it's very.

Can you just explain narcissistic Supply for those that don't understand what that concept is.

Yeah. Narcissistic supply is what fuels a narcissist. So it's their energy source. So if they're getting attention from you or anyone, that is narcissistic supply. That doesn't have to be positive. It can be negative as well. It's just to communicate to them that they still have control over everyone around them. They can manipulate what happens around them and people around them. So narcissistic supply can be negative or positive. People get confused thinking, well, I don't call him. I don't speak to him much. But answering their questions and engaging in conversation is narcissistic supply. Engaging in arguments is narcissistic supply. And the circular conversations that so often.

Happen because they're getting a rise out of you, because they're getting the attention. Yeah. Because they can have the power to change your mood, your stance, your mode. Yeah.

Your behavior. And to get you to react. So again, reactive abuse. They get you to react. They get you to scream, shout, be upset, cry, throw things, whatever. It may be things that are out of your character, but it's like it justifies them going to others and saying, see, she's crazy. Or she gets so mad. It's like, but you're reacting to what's happening. If you didn't have anything to react to, like they weren't gaslighting you, manipulating you, lying to you, there'd be nothing to react to.

Right.

That's another topic. Yeah.

I love that. Thank you so much for breaking it down. Because I think narcissism. Narcissistic. It's a huge buzzword. Right. And sometimes I think a lot of people don't really understand what it really entails.

Yes. It's annoying in a way because people.

Everyone's calling everyone a narcissist. A narcissist.

Yes. I wish it was as easy as just someone being an asshole, but it isn't. It goes way beyond that, unfortunately.

I'm so glad that you broke down kind of what happens, the spectrum between the empath and the NPD or narcissistic personality disorder and how the empath gives and the narcissist kind of takes. Right. What I've noticed is that a lot of really highly educated women get involved with narcissists. Right. Why do you think that is?

There is this idea sometimes that narcissists attract or are attracted to people who are weak and they can't set boundaries and they just desperate for, you know, love and attention. Sometimes that is the case, but sometimes they go for successful, independent, strong women because that makes them look good. Look what I can get. But of course, over time they don't like that, so they try and destroy that. So by destroying you and your self esteem and your self confidence, once they've secured you, of course, and they know that they can control you and manipulate you and gaslight you and they've broken you down a little bit. So you're here, they're here, they try and bring you down here. Very, very subtle, very insidious. That's why narcissistic abuse, you don't really know you're in it and that you're being abused until you're out of it.

Yeah, that's a really good segue. One thing I want to kind of mention too is oftentimes what I know about working with my clients too is that they have huge walls up, right. And for a lot of narcissists, that's almost like a very enticing challenge, right. That it's actually really attract like, oh, okay, I'm really going to get that person because she doesn't talk to anybody and she has this certain energy about her.

It's a challenge.

Right. And you know, I tell, I tell my clients like only thieves and burglars crawl up the walls, right. And try to go over them to steal your emotional security. Right. Whereas if we lower them a bit more, it might not be as much of a challenge. One, two. The other thing that I've noticed too is that because highly educated and smart women have often performed for grade and love, they are also susceptible to narcissists. And getting kind of caught up in that environment. Right. Because they are so used to, as you say, giving or performing for love. I have to do something and then you love me taps right into the actual kind of pattern of a narcissistic relationship. I want to talk a little bit about the red flags that we should be looking for. And you mentioned some of them earlier. You talked about too good to be true. You've mentioned this a couple of times. You won't even know that you're in it. Right. Are there things that we can look for to make sure that we can not get into it? Well, as much as. As much as possible. I have my thoughts, but I'd love to hear yours.

Well, the overarching thing is that gut feeling, like, you know, something's off, but you know what it is.

Yeah.

Yes. That gut feeling that we abandon, that's how we kind of end up in these situations a lot longer than necessary because we abandon that. We don't have that strong inner voice is there, but we don't listen to it. So listening to that inner voice and trusting yourself, usually they will put you up on a pedestal. So it feels nice to get complimented on your achievements or how you look or how successful you are. It's nice. So they're not doing anything horrible in the beginning. So it is nice. And it's like sometimes if you've had bad experiences, it's like a breath of fresh air. Yeah. To hear these things.

And I've also noticed that a lot of narcissists are overly complimentary, that it feels like it's too much.

Almost insincere.

Yeah. Yeah. So I think that that's something to also look out for when it's, like, overly complimentary and it's like, too much. That it's. Then it's like, okay, now they're really just trying to butter you up, literally, so that you are malleable. Right.

Yes. And waiting for more. Waiting for more as well. So they. The. How they work is they put you upon this pedestal, but only to rip the rug from under your feet to bring you back down again once they know that they've secured your love and affection and attention. And that may take three months, it may take six, it may take a year or longer. But when they've got you, that's when the mask can come off and the real them can shine through. But you will see signs. You just won't want to believe that it's really them. You want to believe that they're just having a bad day or you make excuses when it's actually the default is that's the real them. And how they were in the beginning was the lie.

Yeah.

It's not sustainable for them to be like that.

Yeah. One of the things that I also tell my clients, and let me know if this has been your experience as well, is that narcissists will often talk about far in the future. Right. They'll say things.

Future faking.

Right. Oh, you call it future faking. I love that.

I love that so much. That's it.

Oh, my God, I can't wait until Christmas when we go to Paris together. I think it's going to be so romantic. And you're like, you're in August and you're like, wow.

Yeah.

Right?

Yes. Or I can't wait for us to start a family. Or I can't wait to put a ring on your finger. All these Things to kind of buy them some time and give you this, like, false promise that you wait. You wait around waiting for this day that's never going to come.

Let's talk about that mask coming off because you talked about it, Right. And I think that there are potential, a lot of moments when that happens. In my experience, it's been certain milestones in relationships. Right. So when we get exclusive and we're boyfriend and girlfriend, when we move in together, when we get married, when we have a child, these are all opportunities where they take off another mask and another mask. That's been my experience. Let me know if that's been your experience in the work that you do.

Yes, they're comfortable because to them, I mean, I assume they don't have a checklist, but it's like. Yes, it's like another hook they've got into you and another hook and another hook. So you're further away from who you truly are and further away from yourself, but you're closer to getting under their control. Like the baby, the marriage, the moving away.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? So it's getting. They get. They gain more control over you, so they're satisfied. So then the mask can come off because they get more comfortable and it's.

Harder for you to get away.

Harder for you to get away if you're married, if you have children, if you've moved away from friends and family, you feel isolated. You know, they often say, don't. You don't need to work, it's not necessary. You stay home, do whatever. And then you lost your independence as well. Yeah. Financial abuse plays a big part in narcissistic abuse.

Yeah, Got it. That is so important, I think, for so many women to hear. One of the things that I think we need to really talk about, which I think hurts us so much after getting into a narcissistic relationship, is the shame that we feel afterward. Right. You specifically talked about you doing the work to kind of get you to a place where you could feel some sort of inner peace. Right. How did you get get over the shame? And how do you help your clients kind of get over the shame of being a part of this narcissistic relationship?

Well, this is the thing. There's a lot of guilt and shame wrapped up in it because people beat themselves up over not knowing. Why didn't I not see? How could I not see? I feel so stupid. It's like you are doing the same that they did. You're abusing yourself. It's no use looking to the past. There's a lot about you that played a part in this. Not that it was any of your fault, but there are things about us and that's why you've got to do that inner work, to peel those layers back. You know how you were brought up. Guilt and shame was maybe implanted in you. It's part of your program, it's part of your self talk. Right.

If you were ever in sports or if you ever got an A minus and your parent was like, nope, we want an A plus. If you're ever in sports and you didn't get the five goals in soccer, you just got three. And that's part of. Yes, I think it's important to know. Yeah.

Wrapping up your value in the things that you do. Like you are not what you do, you are you. So part of this journey for me, and I believe it's the same for everyone, but not everyone goes to the same level, is you have to establish who you are. You have to dig deep and find out who am I? Because for your whole life you've probably been told who you are and you fit in with work colleagues, with bosses, with relationships, with friendships. You are what other people want you to be. You're not who you want to be and you've always been told so you don't know how to like, who am I? What do I want? What are my likes? What are my dislikes? Do I have a voice? You do, but you've got to dig deep. Once you dig deep and you become your more true, authentic self, you care less about what other people think, you care less about what other people say, and you're able to self validate. That's a big one, being able to self validate. Then that guilt and shame just melts away. You're off the hook with yourself. You realize what's happened. You see, exactly. Clearly this person did this. I was targeted. And yes, because of the things about me I thought I loved myself. But you can't really, if you allow this behavior to continue. Not that it's your fault, but it's not realizing your worth, that somebody speaking to you or doing whatever they're doing to you is acceptable. But by you staying and allowing it time after time and not putting your foot down proves that you have some self worth issues. Yeah. Once you realize your worth, you no longer end up in these dynamics where you are in that position.

I love that.

Yeah, there was a lot I did. That's what my aim is, to save people a lot of time and a lot of energy, trying to work out the combination of things that work for you, you know, to get to that place.

One of the things that I tell a lot of my clients too, after they're out of narcissistic relationships, is to find a small goal that they can accomplish. Because I think after you get out of a relationship, you're feeling lower than dirt. Right. And so it's really important to build that confidence so that you can actually prove to yourself that you can actually do things.

Yes. No matter how small. Yes. Stepping out of that comfort zone, doing something to. Because then it's like, oh, I can do this. And I feel good because you've been.

Programmed that you can't do anything and that you can't do anything. Right. And so in your mind you're like, I have nothing, I have no skills, I have nothing. But you actually have a lot going on and you have to have the physical proof and representation that you can. So even if it's, I go to the gym once a week. Great. Knock that out for a month, then we can continue to step it up. And once you start accomplishing more and more of these goals, your confidence will slowly but surely start to rise again.

To its natural level.

Do you have any other kind of thoughts in terms of how do we recuperate, recover from such a relationship? To get us back, get our mojo back, get our natural essence back? Yeah.

And your spark. That's the thing. It's a combination of surrounding yourself with like minded people. So people who you love spending time with and love spending time with you. Sometimes we're so isolated that there is no one. It's a lonely journey sometimes. But even if you've got one friend, someone who you can do nice things with, go out or go to the gym or gym buddy or join a group, something that you enjoy. Because so often when you've been in these relationships, you lose who you are. Your hobbies or the things that you really love doing were, you know, criticized or belittled. So you stop doing them. So get back to the things that you used to enjoy and the people that you used to enjoy spending time with, whether that's friends. It could be families or family members or it could be a new set of people. So start doing new things. And, and then the obvious things like looking after yourself, like, you know, having a nice bath or going, getting a mani pedi or a facial or a massage, buying yourself flowers. I did that weekly for myself. I bought myself beautiful flowers every week just because it brightened up the room and it just, it lifted me up and it was the representation of I can spend my money how I want to spend my money and if I want to buy fucking flowers, I'm going to buy fucking flowers.

That's right. That's right, yes.

Small things, big things. Yeah. So that was something that. And every time I looked at them, it reminded me of how far I've.

Come in my program. I require all of my clients to treat themselves every week. And in our sessions we talk about how they treated themselves and if they don't treat themselves, they get reprimanded by me.

Good. Exactly. It's important.

It's hard, though.

It's hard to put yourself first when you've put yourself bottom of the line for so long.

But this is really important, right? This is really important because in our lives, oftentimes we've been rewarded. Right. We had to do something to get something. These treats are giving ourselves things without having to do anything just for us being ourselves.

Yes, Exactly.

Completely complete. 180 from the narrative that so many of these highly educated, high achieving women that I work with at least have been told and programmed and conditioned to believe.

Right.

So these treats are so important.

It's important. And even if it's just 10 minutes a day just to sit and have a cup of tea or coffee, doing something, just looking out of the window, just to have that time and peace, because often your mind is racing and if you're a parent, a mum as well, you're being pulled in so many different directions as well as having your work commitments.

Yeah.

Time on your own is also really important. If you just carve out a little bit every day for yourself because you're a person. You're. You may be a mom, you may be a sister and aunt, whatever it may be, or someone's boss, but you're also an individual first.

The other part of your work is also co parenting. So let's talk about that. How do we do this with a narcissist? Because he's always going to be your baby's daddy.

Exactly, exactly. And it puts a lot of people off, obviously.

How do we do this?

When I say co parenting, it's always in speech marks. Because co parenting is when two healthy, emotionally healthy individuals work together, have a child and separate and are able to be on the same page. That is proper co parenting.

Right.

So high conflict co parenting is where one party is a high conflict individual, whether that's a narcissist, toxic person, whatever you want to call it. High conflict individual who Is not. Not on the same page as you. They counter what you say or your desires or your. And you're trying to advocate for your child or children or they parallel parent with you so they don't share any information with you. They don't let the child communicate with you, whatever it may be. That is a lot of the challenge with someone who is like that. So if your child is three, you've got another 15 years of this. Now that's daunting to a lot of people because they're like, oh my God, it's going to be a nightmare. What am I going to do? I can't even have my life. I divorced this person and now I've got a co parent with them and I just cannot get away. And some people think maybe I should have stayed because it's just as bad. But I know that if I was able to create this life for myself and I've been there, I have to co parent with somebody of this nature and I've got another 11 years. I'll be damned if I'm going to have the 11 years be a nightmare for me. It's not going to happen. And I have things set up and that's what I teach my clients. Set things up from as early as you know that you've got this challenge ahead of you. Set things up now so that the next whatever years you are in control.

Okay, can we talk about how we set that up, girl? Like, what are some of the things that we can do without giving up all your sauce, girl? But I really want to. My intention of these podcasts are really to make sure that these people can come home, try on some of the things that we talk about on the podcast to uplevel their life little by little every week. Right? So say I've gotten out of this narcissistic relationship. It's been a year. I have a small child with this person. How do I navigate that? This person still needs to kind of talk with my child, but I don't want to really kind of talk with them. Like, what should I be doing?

So the overaction thing is this person will still try and abuse you, whether directly or indirectly. So directly, maybe in face to face interactions via email, via parenting app, in person, they will still try and abuse you if they cannot get through to you that way. Like if you have cast iron boundaries, which is what I teach my clients, cast iron boundaries. If they can't get through to you, they will use the children. They sometimes use the children if they can get through to you anyway and use the children as in they will either lie to the children about you, keep secrets between the child about you, portray themselves as the great, let's say father if the, you know, if you're a woman, the Disneyland dad. So give the child everything they ever wanted. Just no boundaries, just the fun dad. So the outside world thinks, oh look, this person's a great parent. But then they are not there for their children emotionally, they are not there whatsoever. And if the child stands out of line, is non compliant then they're going to get the wrath of the parent. They're going to be told that they don't listen, they're going to get denigrated, they're going to be made to feel bad. So the child learns to walk on eggshells just like you did in the marriage. Yeah. So I equipped the mum with the tools and strategies and the language in to be able to deal with this situation so they can then teach their children how to deal with this. Because children can't easily limit their contact with the other parent until they come of age so they're going to need the tools and strategies to deal with this. And obviously children don't know that the other parent is what they are. You just need to be there to support them and give them the right tools and strategies to deal with whatever's going to be thrown at them until they can decide for themselves when they're older something.

What sort of like boundaries do you think are really healthy in these sorts of situations? And what kind of language can someone use when they are trying to protect themselves?

It's a daunting experience and it is hard because a lot of people know about boundaries. Everyone knows about boundaries. With CPOs there's lots of information about boundaries. People don't seem to know how to set them consistently and diligently and so that they work. So I get a lot of people saying I set boundaries but they don't work. With him, I set boundaries but he always pushes. Yeah, the resistance means that the boundary is working. But I think people see the resistance as it's not working. I give up. They just end up giving in. So something I've created is something called the perfect response script. So this is really helpful when you have face to face interaction. So pick up and drop off as usually an opportunity for the other person to say something to you, approach you, start abusing you, or start saying snide comments towards you or even start engaging you in conversations about other things that are even related to your children. So this script helps you get in and out basically in 60 seconds. You know, gone in 60 seconds, that 90s movie with Nicolas Cage. It's like in and out in 60 seconds. If you are taking longer than 60 seconds, this person has you. So that's the goal. So it's go to phrases, go to lines, go to ways to get out of that face to face interaction as quickly as possible so that you don't hand over your energy and you don't hand over your power.

Do you have an example of like one of those. We'll definitely link up where they can get those scripts believe on your website, your emailing list. But do you have like an example of what I want to say that you don't mind sharing with us?

Yeah. So say there's a pick up or drop off and the child's coming to you or you're going to the other parent's house and they try and talk to you about the divorce or they try and talk to you about finances or try to say, oh the kid, you didn't pack enough clothes. And this, this, this, whatever it may be, you don't have to engage in conversation, you don't have to even say anything to that parent. You don't have to say anything to them whatsoever. Obviously you don't want to be rude, but you can just put your hand up. Oh, send me an email about that. I've got to run. Can't talk about that now. I've got to go. So it's necessary to tell little white lies to get out of something. If they want to talk to you about finances or let's talk about this or whatever it is that they're trying to talk to you about that you don't want to talk about, which is nothing. They can email you about that. So it's necessary to lie. I've got an appointment. Sorry, I can't, I can't talk. I've got to run, I've got to go. So that's a good go to. It's hard to think of these things in the moment because they like to catch you off guard.

But you got to be prepared beforehand knowing that.

Prepared, that's right. This always be 10 steps ahead. So this is why the scripts will help you with. I've got to run, I've got to go. I've got an appointment. It's okay, send me an email about that. It's fine.

I love, I love this. Send me an email about it. I love that. Do you think that narcissists should have like phone access to you or. No, where are your boundaries when it.

Comes to that communication? And I said this to one of my clients in my group. Communication should be written only. Unless there's an emergency. They should be using the phone. And this particular client said, really? You can get, you can just do email? Yeah, why not? It's up to you. You get to decide, not them. They're not going to like it. But there is nothing to say via text or in person or face to face. I don't have any personally face to face contact. There are no words spoken. I don't even look at the person. I look at my daughter. Anything important can be sent in email and I will only respond to it if it's about her safety and well being. If it's about anything else, it doesn't get discussed, I ignore.

Ladies, do you hear that? Email only. No phone numbers. He doesn't get to call, call you. He doesn't get to randomly show up at your place.

No way.

None of that. Everything is email. He has your email address. That is the only way that you need to be communicating with these specific narcissists.

Otherwise you're going to get wrapped up. You give them too many avenues to communicate with you and too many avenues to communicate means too many avenues to abuse you and get you sucked into their drama, arguments, defending yourself, 99.9%.

And that's good for anything legal that might come up in the future as well.

Yes, right, Definitely. Yeah.

So for those ladies that don't have the boundary of everything written via email and let's say they are talking to these people on the phone, do you suggest that they let the person know, actually, can you just communicate with email right now or how do we set that boundary? I know I'm asking a simple question, but in these moments we don't know what to do and how to do it right.

And it's only when you get off the phone that you're like, damn it, I wish I didn't answer that call. Or I wish I, you know that's right. I wish I said this. So basically, if you have that rule for this particular person that everything is in writing, when you see their name pop up on your phone, you don't answer it. When you're face to face with them, you use the perfect response script to get in and out in 60 seconds no matter what they're saying to you, it needs to be a 60 second exchange. And then text messaging, you don't respond. If it's something about the child you respond by email to their text message.

Yeah.

That is like dog training. You're training them that you are only going to communicate via email.

Yeah.

They may not like it, they likely won't. But as long as you don't budge on that, and this is the whole point about setting boundaries. Do not budge. Be consistent and diligent. Otherwise they know that you are not consistent and diligent and they will keep trying other avenues. If you reply to text messages, they're going to think, okay, good text. Even if you then go, I've had enough, I'm going to email. And then flip flop, yeah, don't do that. That's a big mistake.

So you think that they should say, hey, just send me everything from email moving forward. Because it's scary to understand and to think about what the reaction may be. Right. That is.

Yeah. That's why you don't, that's why you don't tell them.

So they're calling you don't answer it, they're texting you, don't answer it. And then wait until they magically think that they'll email you. Here's what I'm saying. I had a client and I actually told her, you know, he's doing all of these things and to make sure that you are creating space for your new relationship, there has to be solid, healthy boundaries with this situation or you will never be able to get into a new, healthy relationship. I told her, let him know. Right now, I feel most comfortable communicating with you via email. Please email me with anything that goes on and we'll handle the business with the kids. Just so he knows that's the expectation moving forward, what are your thoughts?

Did he listen on that? Did he abide by that?

He did for a couple of weeks and then he did what he normally did and then we had to rebound back on those and he's been doing it ever since. But you know, they try different things, they try different angles.

As you were talking about before, they do. If you feel comfortable announcing, you can announce. But announcing kind of hands your cards over.

And they'll find a way. Because they don't want to go with email. Email is too slow and it doesn't get an immediate reaction out of you. And it's also documented, if people feel comfortable announcing, do that, but expect that they will not probably abide by it and they won't respect that. Yeah, but it depends on the person as well. I just know personally for me, I didn't announce, I just did because it's pointless explaining or Telling this person I committed to whatever they want to do doesn't mean they listened. Sometimes it did say text, send text. I just ignored. Unless it was about our daughter. They went to email and I actually got told that I know why you're sending everything via email. I know what you're trying to do. I don't care whether you know what I'm trying to do. I'm not communicating with you. I mean, that's what I put in my head.

So don't answer any of the texts or the phone calls, but just send him an email and just say, hey, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. That's what you're saying. Okay.

And you know, text is fine. Okay. I'm going to be five minutes late. That's when I use text. Or if he's going to be late or whatever. That's the only way text is used. There are no conversations via text about anything. It's always email because I don't care how it's perceived. It's to protect me and your sanity. Yeah. It's a daunting prospect, though, when you're used to immediately responding to them when they text or call. But it takes that pressure off you when you don't see their name pop up a million times because sometimes they're incessant with the communication. It really creates more space for you. A bit of a buffer.

Yeah. I love that girl. Thank you so much for talking about all of this managing of a narcissist, because it's really management. You are the CEO of this situation and you have to manage it accordingly or it will manage you.

Exactly, exactly. And they need to be. They're always going to be there, but they go there. Yeah. You don't want them pulling the strings for 18 years. You need to be in control.

I know that's right, girl. So I know that you are seeing someone right now. How did you get your guy after your narcissistic relationship? Girl, talk to me a little bit about that story.

I did a lot of the work. The work is ongoing, like this inner work on myself and establishing what I wanted, what I didn't want, who I was, what I want for my life. And then something I tell my clients is, don't put too much pressure on this dating thing. It may be years since you've dated and been out there in the world talking to people of the opposite sex. Don't put too much pressure on yourself or the situation. So I can't remember who told me about this app, but it was bumble you know, Bumble app, where I think the women get to say whether the person can talk to them or not. So I preferred that because other apps I tried, which were like, yuck, gross, men, and just gross.

You know what I see? You know what I find, though, with Bumble? That it actually attracts more narcissists because the women have to come to them and do all of the give, give, give, give, give. And I actually recommend for my clients not to use use Bumble on average.

This is a huge generalization. No, it might have changed now because that was, like, four years ago. So I know it's got more popular, like, now, but. And yeah, of course. Like, I mean, I think any dating app attracts narcissist because they can just talk the talk. But yeah, so I went in there without any preconceived ideas. No pressure. Just gonna go and see because I need to do something other than sitting on my couch, drinking tea, watching TV every night. I need to get out in the world, socialize with other people. I was getting very comfortable on my own, which, you know, is good as well, but can be unhealthy. So we were talking back and forth and had interesting conversations. He always had a rule of weekend dates. I had a child, so, no, I'm not doing weekend dates. You get this day or nothing. So that was me asserting myself with someone else. Yeah. So it ended up being a breakfast date on a Thursday morning, and it was a yes.

Okay, girl.

Yes, yes.

You are not playing any games, girl. Ladies, are you hearing how healthy her boundaries are? Thursday morning, breakfast day, or you get nothing. This is the sort of boundary levels that you all need to be ascribing to. I love it.

Yeah. So I could have. Maybe old Sarah would have gone, okay, I see if I can get a babysitter so we can do the weekend thing, blah, blah, blah. But it's too stressful. It's like, no, this is when I'm free. Take it or leave it. I mean, I didn't say it like that, but you know what I mean. In my mind, this is when I'm free. So we had a coffee and then a walk, then another coffee. It was really nice. But actually, the funny thing is, when I woke up that morning, my eye was swollen. That's why I was thinking about with your eyes. My eye was swollen, so. But because of my work, the inner work and how I was feeling and stepping into my truth, I was like, okay, well, I can either not go and postpone it. Oh, I'm just going to go, because this is me, this is what happened. And whatever. I don't even care. Yeah, so I went. And as the morning progressed, as I was driving over, it was getting more and more swollen, girl. But yeah, so I turned up, I mentioned, you know, I woke up with my eye like this, whatever, blah, blah, blah. And then we moved on. But it was later on my partner actually admitted, he said, I really love the fact that you came like that because most women would cancel or flake on you because of they're worried about how they look at first meeting someone. But yeah, I just came and like, for me, it was like a good test as well. It's like, if you can't accept me when I turn up with something like this, I don't care. I don't want your time. You don't deserve my time. You don't deserve to be together, like, if you don't accept me as I am. So this is something out of my control. It's a swollen eye, whatever. Anyway, so, yeah, four years later, got a daughter and 18 month old, and everything's great. Yeah. But yeah, it's all about being true. Being true to who you are and being your real, authentic, true self. And use dating as a test. Go and test people. Test what you've learned. Test if you can listen to those gut feelings. Can I set a boundary? Can I ask questions without feeling nervous or stressed with the reaction I'm going to get? So my thing is, I'm not sure what you advise your clients, but it's like, there's no question that's off the table. Like, you know, there's rules. Oh, don't say this. No, no, no.

Just be your 100% self. And if you got it, you got a question, girl, you better ask it.

Yes. Because it's better to know now than five years down the track or three months down the track when you're invested.

Yeah. I want to thank you so much for sharing your story because I know that there are a lot of women out there that are like, I'm never going to be in a relationship again. It's not possible for me. Men are scary. I don't want to even engage in this. And your story is proof of possibility that you can actually find an amazing person and partner that's going to love you, support you, lift you up. And the love and relationship can be expansive and not retractive. Right?

Yeah.

And it's possible.

It's possible even after the worst experience. And I'm not saying it was easy. Like, even When I first came out of it, I couldn't look men in the eye. I couldn't look people in the eye. I couldn't look men in the eye though specifically, I was just like frozen. It was a very scary, weird thing. But you know, that's part of the PTSD and you know, it's like the fear of if somebody looks in, they're going to like, I'm bare vulnerable and they can see me. And that's part of the journey, like being okay with people, people seeing you. But it takes time and it takes doing that work. Like you'll stay frozen like that for a long time unless you do something.

Thank you so much for sharing your story. Now for my listeners who absolutely want and need to learn how to manage the toxic and narcissistic environments that they either are in or have been in, how can they connect with you?

I live mainly over on Instagram. Narc proof and thriving. So narc underscore, proof, underscore and underscore thriving. So not proof and thriving. That's where I am. They can contact me there for any help with narc abuse recovery or more specifically high conflict co parenting or if they want access to the perfect response script, if they've got those pickups and drop offs where they've got face to face interactions that they're struggling with and.

We'Ll put the link in our show notes or that they can get that script because I think it's very necessary. Even in other relationships as well. Right. Work relationships.

Definitely toxic family members.

That's right, yes. This is something that we all need.

Don't have to engage in and out in 60 seconds. Gone in 60 seconds. Yes.

I love it to have that parameter as well as you think about these interactions.

Yes. If it's taken longer than that, then they're sucking you into something.

Yeah.

They're getting narcissistic supply.

It's kind of like, you know when your baby wakes up in the middle of the night and you go in to try to shush it and you know you can't be in there super long or your baby's just gonna wake up. Right. It's kind of the same effect that like you gotta be in there, hush them, you know, do whatever you need to do and then get out.

In and out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Awesome. Well, Sarah, thank you so much for joining me. I am so happy that we were able to talk about this and I know that it's going to help so many women out there specifically manage the relationships that they had that they didn't have a script for. Because as you know, why your work is so magical, there's no blueprint for this. There's nothing for them to know about it. Obviously the work that you're doing is helping with that. But you know, unless they can find you, they won't know what to do.

Doesn't have to be a nightmare co parenting with someone like this. Like people throw their hands up and think that this is it, this is not it. I am proof and my clients are proof that this is not it. You can live a beautiful life, have a new relationship, have more children if that's what you want. And this person is on the outside, yes, they're still there. But you get to manage then and you get to live your life so it's possible.

I love it so much. Sarah, thank you so much for joining us today.

Thank you for having me. It's been great.

Bye everyone.

Hey girl. Thank you so much for listening to the get yout Guy coaching podcast. If you like this episode and want to talk with me personally, please book free consultation at www.getyourguycoaching.com. apply or subscribe and leave me a review. Wherever you listen to your podcasts, talk.