Nice Girl Syndrome With Abbey Kelly

Hey, girl. Welcome to the get yout Guy coaching podcast. My name is Anwar White, but you can just call me your own personal dating and relationship coach. Each week you'll hear actionable advice, tips, and strategies that you can implement in your own love life. I'm talking about healing your heart, dating effectively, and understanding men so that you can, you guessed it, get your guy. Are you ready to level up your love life? All right, let's go.

I never felt the way I do without anyone but you.

Hello, my loves. And thank you so much for joining me on the get yout Guy coaching podcast. Today I have a very special guest. All the way from Paris, France, girl. By way of Toronto, by way of London, England, we have Coach Abby. And she is a self love coach. And she helps women love themselves so that they can love and be loved their relationships. Coach Abby, thank you so much for being with me today.

Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm really excited.

Yes. I'm so excited that you're here today with us because we have a special topic that we're talking about today, and that's all about the nice girl syndrome that I think so many of us kind of get into without us even knowing about it. But before we get into that, why don't you talk a little bit about your business, what you do, and how you serve your clients.

So, as you know, my name's Abby, Coach Abby, as they call me. And I'm a self love coach. And I help women heal, rebuild, and love themselves more without feeling guilty. And I basically focus on them forming a better relationship with themselves and to help them get over their exes. Because I find so many women cling on to an example.

Yeah.

And most of the time, the ex isn't even worth holding onto.

Like, almost all of the time, right?

Yeah, literally. Yeah. We're being honest all of the time. Yeah.

If they're an ex, they're an ex for a reason. So I completely understand that now. How did you get into this work, girl? Because everyone, if you're like a love coach, dating coach, relationship coach, there's always an interesting story in terms of how you got into this work. So what is that story for you?

Whoa. It's a story like, my whole dating life was an absolute disaster. Constantly getting ghosted, breadcrumbed, etc. Etc. And for those.

Those of the people in the audience, the listeners who don't know what breadcrumbing is, can you kind of explain that to them?

It's kind of like, if you think, like, breadcrumbs, it's almost like a guy throwing crumbs at you. So every once in a while he'll reach out and lead you down a trail of picking up crumbs, and you think, oh, I'm going to get the whole loaf. But no, you're constantly getting crumbs. And sometimes the crumbs stop or sometimes the crumbs continue. It's almost like a dog throwing a bone, but you're just getting crumbs. You're not getting like a whole slice.

Yeah, definitely. Because I think that there's some people out here like, what's breadcrumbing? And it's like, yeah, definitely. When somebody's, like, reaching out or texting you every couple of weeks like, hey, what's up? Let's do something. And then you're like, yeah, let's do something. And then you don't hear from them again, and then they'll do it again in a week or two. Yeah, definitely. So you were saying that you were being ghosted, that you were being breadcrumbed.

Yeah. And on top of that, I had a horrible work experience. I was working in a job, I had a toxic manager that was absolutely awful. And I was so stressed out that I ended up getting Hodgkin's lymphoma. And once I finished treatment, I decided to reevaluate my life. And I was looking at some of the patterns of my dating life, my working life, and I realized that I was just basically lacking self love. Because when I looked at most of the things that I let sleep, lied, it was because I had a lack of self love that I didn't even know. And that was kind of like heartbreaking for me because I heard a little voice say to me, abby, do you love yourself? And I was like, yeah, of course. You know, of course I love myself. But then when I looked at what was going on and what I was allowing to let slide, how I was allowing guys to basically treat me, I realized, no, girl, you lack self love.

Yeah. Yeah, that was probably really hard to swallow.

It was. It was a hard pill to swallow, but I'm glad I swallowed it because it made me change my whole life around. And I find sometimes when we get real with ourselves, two things happen. We make improvements or we backslide and we can get upset with ourselves, Angry, frustrated. And I chose to go down the self improvement road and help women to do the same.

That's amazing. I'm so glad that you did, girl.

Me too.

So let's get into this, right? Because we talked a little bit beforehand and you self proclaimed yourself as the nice girl. Where do you think that came from?

I think it came from me just wanting to people please and not wanting to upset people. I'm very non confrontational. So I just felt like being the nice girl. Just shut up, get on with it. Yeah. It came from my need of not wanting to disappoint and just wanting to be liked as well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What I often find with the, what I call nice girl syndrome because like half of my clients have it, is that when we grow up, oftentimes we feel like we have to be perfect, that we can't be anything besides perfect because if we aren't, people are not going to love us. Or that sometimes when we grow up in a certain household situation where things can be somewhat chaotic that you don't want to add to the drama or the chaos and so you want to make sure that everything is copacetic and good with you so that again people can love and accept us and feel like we're worthy. So I'm so glad that you are self proclaimed and you're not ashamed of it because acknowledging is kind of like the first step in terms of figuring out if the nice girl syndrome is working for you or not.

Right.

So you know, you talked a little bit about your dating past, but how do you think that being quote unquote, the nice girl hindered you in dating and relationships?

Well, so some of the guys, they would ghost me, which was absolutely pretty much frequently, or they would call me up like last minute, let's just say like after 9pm And I lacked boundaries, I guess. So they would be like, hey, want to hang out? And I would be like, okay, but I really want to say no. And so it allowed them to basically just walk all over me and they could basically take from me and I'd be like, yeah, sure, okay. But when it came to me wanting to speak up for myself, I was basically the nice girl. I just didn't want to rock the boat or say anything or ask these questions like where is this going? Or where have you been? I just wanted to just be the nice girl basically and just play it cool and not be like a problem.

Yeah. It's interesting that you had focus on self love. Right. Because one of the things that I think is really important to realize is that when we are the nice girl, ultimately what we're doing is putting the needs, desires, emotions of others before ourselves. So when a guy reaches out to Us and says, hey, let's hang out. Now we're thinking, what's the most convenient thing for him? Right. Instead of what's going to make me feel the best. Right. And oftentimes he's going to do what he wants to do because as humans, we're selfish beings anyway, and so we often do not get our needs met. So, you know, I think it definitely can kind of like hinder so many other parts of dating and relationships as well. I'm so happy that you were sharing that because I'm sure our listeners out there are definitely going through similar experience or have been through similar experiences. How else did it kind of hinder you or not help you, you know, achieve some of your love goals as the nice girl?

It basically meant that guys just probably felt like I'm not able to speak up for myself. So they basically just did what they want. And I wasn't able to get commitment from them because it's kind of like they can take from me without committing to me. So I was never really able to get that commitment that I wanted, like that solid relationship. So when these what are we? Conversations that I was too scared back then to speak about, why would they even consider committing to me if they're literally getting what they want from me? Girlfriend benefits.

Yes.

Without me being a girlfriend.

Yeah. That's so important. I'm so glad that you mentioned that because so many people do this, and I think this is where, you know, generationally, we may have learned from our moms and grandmas, just give, just do. And then suddenly these men are just going to be like, she's my wife, because she's already acting like she's my wife. So I guess she's my wife or girlfriend. Right?

Yeah.

That's not how it happens nowadays.

No. Not now. No. Definitely.

Probably didn't happen as much back then either. But it was just maybe a regular thing. Yeah. I'm so happy that you mentioned that, because that is the number one way for you not to get into a relationship.

Absolutely.

There's no incentive. There's no incentive for the man. Yeah. What are you going to say?

No, I was going to say that I think as well, that's basically that, like, for men, it's like, well, why would I. And I found that they would go for women who had boundaries, made them wait. So it's kind of like, okay, they would be getting what they want from me. Meanwhile, they're working on another girl. And then I could see, oh, okay, they were just using me for certain things. But here they are, happily committed because this girl had self love, she loved her. The other girls, like love themselves enough to say, absolutely, we're going to wait or we're going to do it my way at my pace. Which is something I just never had the courage to do.

Yeah. And it's interesting, what I've been picking up over the last couple of sentences is you've been mentioning, I think, or circling around this notion of sex. Right. Waiting on your terms, things like that. Talk to me about being the nice girl and sex in dating and relationships and how you navigated that basically at.

The guy's pace most of the time.

Which is like lightning speed.

Exactly, exactly. So it would be like maybe on the second date, sometimes the first date, and then obviously they're getting what they want, so they're not committing to me. And then I did experiment where I was like, okay, let me wait a month or two, and they got what they wanted, but because I was still allowing them to ghost me. So like, perhaps they would come back a month or a few weeks later and then I would give it up to them, they would disappear. So it's kind of like I wasn't really firming myself and standing up for myself. So when it came to sex, they got what they wanted, going at their pace and then just walking away.

This is one of the reasons why, when, you know, the women in my program, what I do recommend is that they do not have sex with the men that they're dating until they're in an exclusive relationship.

Right. I agree.

Because most men will try to go there because they're men. And men generally are looking for sex and find love, and women are looking for love and have sex along the way. Right. And so oftentimes it might get hot and heavy, you may be kissing, but at that moment it is important to say, you know, I would love to have sex, but I just don't do that with someone that I'm not in an exclusive relationship with. What that does ultimately is it triggers something in a man's mind where the question is not about do I want to continue hanging out with her or not. Right. Because men are very much in the present tense. Then the question about the relationship is more about do I want to be exclusive with her or not? And that's what he's going to continue to be thinking about from that point onward. And then you get a clear understanding of if he does, because he's going to make moves to get there or not. And one thing I wanted to ask you about kind of being the nice girl and sex is. Talk to me about kind of your education or experience with sex. I guess growing up, was that something that was talked about a lot or not really. Who taught you about it? Who taught you about sex, sexual agency, all of that?

It was kind of me just figuring it out. I mean, my mom literally said to me, because she was very open about sex, but I didn't feel comfortable going to her to talk about it. But I remember her just telling me, basically, tell boys you're not a virgin because you know they're not going to want you. Because she was like, most boys just want. Will want you for sex. I think when I was. Yeah, teenager when I started high school. So basically she just.

Mom's killing me over here, girl. We love mom, but we don't know if she set you up for success here.

Right. And for me, it was kind of like, especially at that age when you're in like high school. I don't want to tell guys that I'm not. No way. Because when you do that one thing, they're going to say, you're a hoe regardless.

Right.

So that's something. So I never really told guys that. And I remember the first time I lost my virginity, I was 18. And I really like this guy. Again, my mind, we are in a relationship. That's just what I thought, you know, like, we're hanging out, he's kissing me, he's told me that he likes me, so we do the deeds. And then he basically rejected me. Within a few days, the conversations just got less. I found out that he liked another girl. And that led me to think that there was something wrong with me. I wasn't pretty enough or I just lacked something. So that kind of stunted me and made me think, like, I'm not good enough. So I guess as well that added onto the nice girl of wanting to please, please guys.

Yeah, yeah, you're a black woman. What do you think that your race had to also do with this nice girl syndrome?

That is key. I felt like if I was to speak up and voice myself, I'll be labeled as that angry black woman. So I think that's probably why I kept myself in a box, especially at work. I didn't want to speak up for myself because I didn't want to come across as the angry girl or the problem person.

Yeah.

With guys as well. I didn't want to be seen as, you know, the typical angry black woman. You're all the same. So it's kind of like, well, let me be different, let me be nice. Let me see if this work for me. Yeah.

And in doing so, it sounded like you put yourself or limited yourself in terms of the way that you were able to express emotion and just your general happiness.

Yeah. I kept all my abiness in a box, which is so sad because the other day I did my meditation, like an inner child healing.

Yeah.

And it was so interesting because for the first time I had heard my inner child. And I went Back to. To 11 year old Abby, who was so fun talkative. And she said to me, like, you just stopped being out there. You stopped being outgoing. And I was like, wow. This was round about the age of, like entering my teenage years of just wanting to not be the angry black woman. So I just kind of went into my box.

Yeah. Yeah.

So interesting. Yeah.

It's interesting too because they often say that age range between 7 and 12. It actually just beats girls up. It beats them up. Like when you're five, six and seven, like the girls are ruckus girl, they're running around, they're doing whatever, all of this. And then that age range, there's something about how they're treated with boys, I guess, how the insults happen or the bullying or what have you. Both from boys and girls to the point where we want to be liked so much. I can sympathize and empathize because I think as a gay child growing up, I also felt the same way. Right. That like, I know I'm different and I need to be accepted and I need to find ways in which I can be loved and valued and seen. And so, you know, there's a variety of ways of doing that. But ultimately I also played the nice girl syndrome in a lot of different ways to try to be liked. Right.

Yeah.

But it wasn't me. I couldn't talk my shit.

Right. Exactly. Because you just feel it inside, it's tugging at you.

Yeah.

It's like, why are you saying, you know, it's like, why are you saying yes when you know you want to say no?

Yeah. The other thing about that too is that men can sense when you kind of don't want to do something, but you're saying yes or when you get a little bit quiet. Because sometimes women will do this, they'll get quiet when they're upset instead of speak their truth.

Yeah.

And I want to offer to women out there that do that, that that is emotional dishonesty. Right. And when women do that, when you're playing the nice girl and you don't want to ruffle any feathers. It's going to be hard for him to trust you because you're saying one thing, but your energy and your existence is saying a completely different thing. And so I want to just kind of encourage everyone out there that does play that nice girl role that you're not doing yourself any favors because ultimately when he sees you as two faced or two personed, he's not going to trust you. And the connection cannot be super deep.

Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that 100%. Yeah.

So you obviously have gotten out of your nice girl syndrome a bit. What sort of things did you do to help get there? Right. Or were there certain exercises or actions that you took?

Yeah, first of all, I just went back to myself and I was like, you know, we have to honor how we truly feel. Even if it's uncomfortable. You have to be able to speak up for yourself. So getting out of the nice girl thing meant that I had to be more confident in myself. And the way I did that was through just listening to daily affirmations and envisioning the woman that I wanted to become. And the woman I wanted to be was someone who said no and felt okay with it. And it was hard at first, but I found that I just. I mean, when you say no as well, you don't have to do it in a mean way.

Right.

So I was like, you know, I can still say no to my friends, like, or to guys, like, I just don't feel like it. I don't want to right now. It's too soon for me. And I found in doing that, I felt like I felt a lot more peaceful in myself because I was honoring how I truly feel. So, yeah, just by doing affirmations and building my confidence, it just gave me the ability to break out of that nice girl box.

What were some of your favorite affirmations?

So, like, I am confident. I am love. I am enough. I am beautiful. I can say no. I am powerful. Just. Yeah, just things like that. And at first it felt really strange to say it.

Yeah.

But the more I said it, the more it just became comfortable for me. Like, it didn't feel strange. And then I started, started looking in the mirror when I said it. And I noticed I started to, like, stand up taller with my shoulders back and just like, I am enough and it's okay to honor myself. And with that, yeah, my confidence grew. And I found that when people would ask me to do something like, hey, Abby, are you free? I found myself to say no, not tonight. And how about another night without really thinking bad? Like, I've just said no. Are they going to hate me? What does this mean? Or he's asked me out and I'm not able to make it. Rather than me just, you know, rearranging my schedule like the old. I'm like, I can't. I've actually got work to do. So I wasn't worried, like, oh, my gosh, is he going to reschedule? Will he call me back? I didn't care, because I'm like, you know something? I'm honoring me, and that's the most important thing. And putting me first.

How long did it take you to get to that point from. These affirmations are weird until I'm starting to believe these affirmations.

I would say about, like, three months of really doing it every single day. Because the first month and, like, every other day. Not consistently. But I found when I just stuck to three months of doing it and putting it into practice, it felt good. Especially when I started doing the mirror work as well when I looked in the mirror. That helped.

Yeah. I think that this is so important to realize because I think people think that I'll do affirmations for a week, and then it's going to be something and it's going to be over. And that's not the case. But this actually takes consistent work. And that's one of the reasons why my program is six months. Because these first three months are, like, really just getting your footing and grounding in terms of the new woman that you are to be or who you're destined to be. And then the last three months is really about, okay, now that we have that, let's really find our person.

Yes, right.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But it does take a good amount of time.

Time.

One of the things that I do, too, is, like, in my journal every day, I write five beliefs or affirmations about myself, my business, my life that I believe, that I feel that I want to continue because I think it is powerful work, even in the subconscious area. Definitely. You also mentioned about understanding or creating a future self. Right. Which is like, who do I want to be? What does she look like? How does she live her life? How does she relate to other people? What does she do professionally? What does she do personally? Right. All of that. And so what were some of the things that your future self did that you weren't doing at that moment? I know that you mentioned saying no, but besides that, were there other things that you had to be or you had to do.

Yes. So I envisioned a woman who was very well dressed. One of the things I wasn't really doing was taking care of myself in terms like maintenance wise. It's not that I was going out of the house looking.

Yeah. But I wasn't putting effort into the way that I looked. So I reconnected with my femininity, which was very strange for me, being more softer. In the summertime, I started wearing dresses, doing makeup, doing my hair, which was weird for me because people were staring at me. It's like I was now a new me. I was being seen.

Yeah.

And I had to get comfortable with being seen. I'm not gonna lie. Like, since COVID I've kind of fallen off. But back then I was getting ready to go out because another thing was like with my mum, I love her so much, but like putting effort into the way that I looked when I went out, it kind of wasn't enforced. She was more or less, if you're going out out, then you can look well. But if you're just going down the road, you know, you can just house clothes. Fair enough. But I decided just for me that even if I am going down the road, I want to look the best that I can that day, even if it's just short errands. So, yeah, I put effort into how I looked and I found that that did help build my confidence.

I love that. Very cool. One of the things that I know that's a part of being the nice girl, that it's also rooted in trying to have things perfect and trying to make them look like the fantasy that one really idealizes right in one's head. So what's been your experience with that? How have you tried to, you know, create the fantasy in your dating and relationship life?

For me, it was literally just, okay, be the nice girl and he's going to choose you. Just shut up, smile, let him take the lead, don't make a fuss. And. And yeah, because you're nice, he's going to pick you. And you will, if you're lucky, get married and live happily ever after. That was the fantasy for me.

And when did you realize that that fantasy is not doable or workable or have you.

The moment I finished chemotherapy, I noticed that that's just. I need to wake up, basically, because it's clearly not happening. When I looked back at the evidence, I was like, yeah, this isn't working out. Being the nice girl, just keeping quiet, letting them get away with whatever and not speaking up for yourself. It clearly isn't working for you. So, yeah, I had to snap out of that.

Yeah. It's interesting, and you've mentioned this a little bit earlier about, like, being the nice girl also to be seen. And one of the things that I know that's really kind of prevalent in the women that I work with is that it's often because they weren't necessarily seen by either their mother and their father in some way. It was, like, emotional neglect. It kind of manifests itself in making sure that the life is perfect. It's pretty that there are no flaws to it. Nobody can say anything about you. Right. And we are always looking to be chosen because ultimately, when we were growing up, we were not chosen.

Right.

We were not first. We were not put on the pedestal that we needed to be put on. I'm so glad that you're able to share that, because I think a lot of people will really resonate with that, that if I just smile, laugh at their corny jokes, and just wait and nod, that they're gonna make me their wife. And that's not the case at all. That ultimately, especially in 2021 women, you are the ones that are choosing right, and you choose.