Relationship With Work with Nayla Bahri

We can.

I love the new consent of recording.

I haven't heard it called that before, but that's exactly what it is.

Consent. Yeah.

Yes. It's so funny. Yeah.

I love it. Okay.

Hello, my loves. Thank you so much for joining me today. I have a very special guest with me. She's actually a really good friend of mine. We've known each other for over a decade now. Dr. Nailah Barry. And I met her when I was getting my MBA at Columbia and she was helping everyone kind of get their whole career lives together. And now she's an amazing executive coach that works with an amazing assortment of different kinds of women and different levels of their career. And so, Naila, thank you so much for joining me today on the podcast.

It is honestly my true delight and pleasure to be here with you. So thank you for having me.

Of course. Can you kind of just tell the listeners exactly, like, what you do? I know that you're amazing, but they don't know that are so amazing yet. So I want. I want them to know.

Well, I appreciate that. So what do I do? The thing that I'm really interested in is helping people explore and create their ideal experience of work. So I do that in a number of ways. So, yes, I do coach. I coach people in organizations. I coach people privately. I coach people who are relatively early in their careers, all the way up to people who are approaching retirement, trying to figure out how to take everything they know and love to do and build a great retirement life for themselves. And. And I also teach in the classroom, so I still teach at Columbia. And I do some working companies, too, like sometimes helping talent leaders or other leaders figure out how to provide career support and other kinds of leadership development support for their teams and for their managers. So I'm in a lot of different places and I'm doing a lot. I am.

I am.

And the thing I really care about is, again, we spend 90,000 hours of our lives at work. I say this all the time, and every time I say it, I get the reaction I'm getting on your face right now, which is big eyes, big eyes, big eyes. Holy cow. That's the single greatest number of hours we're going to spend on any activity while we're awake.

Yeah.

And my point of view is the case. Let's make it purposeful, let's make it joyful, let's make it aligned with who we are. That's what I care about.

So I reached out to you because what I know about doing this dating and relationship work is that so many of my smart and successful and ambitious and high achieving women that I work with, until they have a boyfriend or girlfriend or a relationship, they treat their work, their company, as their surrogate boyfriend.

Oh my God, that is hilarious. It's so true. It's so true. And you know, it's funny. I'll even say I've been married for nearly 20 years and I can see myself do the same thing, like compensating in some regards for what I feel like I'm not getting at home. I try to get it from work. It's such an interesting way to think about it. And you know, you mentioned this and I've said it to you before, I use the language that we relate to our work, that we are in relationship to our work. So what's interesting for us to talk about today is how some of the stuff that we do that shows up in our personal and romantic relations also shows up in our work relationship. We are the same people repeating the same patterns.

Yeah, totally. So let's talk about some of the things that you see in your work and how, and specifically women, how they're interacting with their company as let's call them their company boyfriend or company partner. Right. Because what I'm seeing a lot with my clients is lack of boundaries. They're working like crazy. They're compensating. Right. They're doing, they're taking on more work than they need to. Right. So there's this like, oh, there's this burden that happens oftentimes that like they're doing much more than they set out to in a lot of different ways. But what are you seeing specifically?

Well, I see so much. What I see often is that women, men too, but we're talking about women today. And I see this probably, and I am a woman, so it's a little easier for me to relate to this personally is that sometimes when we talk about patterns of behavior or ways of engaging with our work, whether it's a company or whether it's something else we do, we even have our own private practice, we have a freelance business. It is really easy to be in search of that kind of core human question of am I good enough? Am I worthy of love and appreciation.

By doing all those things? You're talking about overworking, overperforming, having really porous boundaries around our day and what we say yes to overdoing it, and yet carrying with that, that kind of extraneous effort, constant self doubt, that constant narrative that we carry like, am I good enough? Am I Doing enough work for them. Is he happy? Is my boss happy? Is she happy? Am I going to get promoted? Am I going to get noticed? Is the person to my left or to my right moving faster than me? And it's really true. So whether or not you are actively aware, you're aware that you are compensating for other gaps that you want to fill in your life, I just see in general, most of us have a relationship with work where we are in that performer or pleasing mode so much, it's depleting, it's draining. And I think it comes down to this core question, like, am I good enough?

That's so true. I was just chatting with a client and she had gotten into her dream job at Google. And I was like. And she was like, but I have to prove myself. But I have to prove myself. I was like, girl, you're in. You've already proved. You've already proven yourself. Like, what more is there to do? Right? Because most of my clients actually get promotions or level up in their career as well. Because how we do one thing is how we do everything.

Amen.

So if we're showing up differently in one area of our lives, it's definitely going to relate to the way that we relate to our friends, our family, our work, all. Everything. Right. And so I see that often. But I was, like, so surprised because this is someone who has gone to a top business school, has gone to the top universities, has had the most amazing experience, and the resume is too legit to quit. And we still had this, as you were pointing out, this not enoughness. Yeah, right. Which is, like, so interesting.

Yeah. So it's in many ways, like, if I think back to my early dating years and to like, those brutal twenties. They were brutal. The search to kind of let. If somebody this progresses, if this couple of dates moves to something more substantial, or if we're going to finally move in together, if he is going to ask me to marry him, well, then it will validate that I was worth it, that this. I made the right choice. Oh, my God, I'm so sorry.

That's fine.

I didn't. I never. I never get FaceTimed. All right, so where were we? We were talking about.

We were talking about.

You know, if they asked me to marry early in my 20s, asking me to marry me.

Okay, so let me go back to that and see if your sister can do this one. Okay.

She can do it all, girl. Don't worry about it.

Oh, good, good, good.

Yeah.

So when you say that, it reminds Me of the quest that so many of us are on early in our 20s, like, this was reminiscent for me of, like, the brutality of my 20s when I was trying to figure out, like, dating a bunch of people, where is going to. What's. What's going to go where? Like, which is the. Where do I put the investment of my energy and my care and my love to grow something into being, like, the relationship? And what's implicit in that is it's kind of like waiting for external validation, waiting that, like, they select me. They say, yes, you're the one. We have mutually, and not often enough explicitly, but somehow mutually agreed. We're going to go down this route together. And in many ways, it's not so different than how we relate to work. It's a sense that, like, when, you know, they gave me the promotion, they gave me the new job, but, like, how many more gold stars can I get? How much more do I have to do to be reminded? And how frequently do I need that organization, my manager, the leadership development program, like, you know, pick the agency to remind me to tell me that I'm doing a good enough job. And what I find, you know, the work that you and I do might be different, but it's so similar in that we are really trying to build the internal radar, the internal measurement system to say, what do you want? How do you define success for yourself? How do you define and how do.

You want to choose versus be chosen?

Yeah. Oh, my God. Yes, girl.

We're doing the same work, just in different language.

You know, it's so funny. One of my best friends from college is a dietitian, and she works with people who have disordered eating. And she says the same thing to me. We are doing the same thing. We are looking to explore the question of worthiness, relationship, either agency. And the context is different. You know, I use the workplace uses food. You use dating. It's the same idea of saying, who are you? Who do you want to be? And how do you want to express yourself in the world and live in the world.

That's exactly right. Okay, so what I want to do is talk about kind of the different stages of a relationship that you will have with your company. Right? Because it's the same with a relationship with a man or partner. Right. And so the first thing I want to talk about is, like, the interviewing process, right. And specifically for women, because the interviewing process, and I would say that the whole recruitment and hiring process in general. Right. Because I think that you had already mentioned that, like, oftentimes I will represent myself differently than who I am in this recruitment and this interviewing process and then potentially show up differently when I get the job. So have you noticed that in some of the work that you do with your clients? And if so, how do you help them kind of get out of that? Right, because one of the things, and I'll just share it from the dating tip is like so much of my work is about, no, I want you to be 100% you at all times. I don't want you to put on this facade and then three months later he find out who you really are and like not want to be a part of it because he doesn't trust you because you're giving him different faces.

Yeah, yeah. So that idea of like misrepresenting or wearing a mask. Right. And it's funny because I think and especially.

Sorry to interrupt. Especially women of color.

Yeah, yeah. And you know what? It's so interesting. The idea that we have, we carry with us. So listen, I use this reference when I talk about how we relate to work and the progress comes from developing that healthy designing. The healthy relationship with work is a blend of what I call inner work and outer work. Right. The lion's share is the inner work. You know, I co host a podcast called the Inside Job for this reason.

We're talking and it's really great. You guys should all mention, you guys should all hit it up and listen to it. It's amazing.

I appreciate that so much. But Eric and I call it the inside job for exactly this reason. Like you have to. One of the things that we do when we're not careful. And listen, there's so many messages from our childhoods, from the way we were educated in high school and college, from those first few jobs we have that lead us to believe that we have to shape shift our whole lives, that we are constantly contorting who we are to meet the criteria that we understand from a bullet pointed job description, by the way, of what we think we have to show up as to please a recruiter, to please a hiring manager, to please hr. And listen, it's not the world of home, right? So when you are at work, there are things that there are. It's appropriate decorum at work. There are, you know, social conditions we're operating in which are different than your home life. But nonetheless, those work that I'm doing with clients and the work I think we all have to face is to figure out who we are, what we really want, and whether or not we are the Right painkiller, the right medicine for the organization's problems, pains, opportunities. And I think what ends up happening, especially for those of us who were socialized to blend, is we end up dulling the parts of us that are unique or amplified because we think, well, I'm trying to be everyone to this recruiter. I want to be the most nimble, most fluid, most desirable candidate. And I'll do what. I'll dance whatever dance they want me to dance. I will put on whatever show they want me to put on. Because that feels like the surest way to get a yes. And the thing that I work on with my clients and I think you work on with your clients is like the first yes is not the only yes. We are building a relationship, we are building sustenance, we are building rapport for the long game. And the truer you are in that interview, the truer you can be in the long run. Now, even before we get to the interview, we have to know who we are.

That's right.

We have to know what makes us strong. We have to know what our vulnerabilities are. We have to know where our interests lie, what we want to be doing for work. That's a fair amount of work before you get to the first interview. But I do think we have to really check the instinct to perform wearing someone else's clothes. Show up for your, for yourself. Because you're going to have to stick through, stick it through, see it through. That first job, two, three, four years of wearing someone else's clothes, it's exhausting.

It is.

And you don't do your best work in those conditions anyway.

Right. And then you get resentful. Right. There's some resentment that happens that like once you get home, you take off all of your clothes because you don't want to even be associated with anything related to work. Right. You have some of those Sunday scares that happened that happen on occasion, but also.

Like you said before, which I think is really important, like you are not going to be able to perform in the optimal way. And because of that, you're not going to be seen in the way that you need to be seen and represent yourself in the way that you need to represent yourself.

Isn't that funny? It's like the short term gain feels so real and the long term payoff is so reduced. We're wearing someone else's clothes.

Yeah. And you never want to be one of those people that like, I think we all have been in companies where it's like that person interviewed really well, but.

They don't do the job the way that they need to do the job.

Totally, totally. You know, and I think that's probably not so different than being like, I can't remember what movie I'm thinking about, but maybe it's Gone Girl where that movie was crazy. That whole thing where she's. If you remember the scene where she's like pulling away in the car after the big climax, which I'm not gonna share in case people haven't seen it. But she says something like, I played the good girl. Right. Like I laughed at all the bad jokes. I chugged beers with your friends. I did all the stuff I was supposed to do. It's not sustainable. Right. So whether we're doing it in our dating relationships or we're doing it at work and we're kind of playing the part.

It'S exhausting and it's not sustainable. And yet that's, I think, the lion's share of the work that you and I do, which is like helping people figure out who they really are and who they want to be and that. And helping them come to this realization that that's exactly who they are and who they need to be. And that's great. There's no need to apologize for it.

And what they want and what they don't want and moving them toward what they want and moving them away from the things that they don't want.

Yes.

Like so much of my work is also just reminding them, no, this is what you want, this is not what you want.

Right? Isn't it? So, I mean, I think a lot these days in particular around this question of self trust and self honoring decisions. Like, are we borrowing someone else's blueprint of what we think the right partner husband should be, what we think the right job should be?

Right.

And like, yes, totally.

100% right. 100%. 100%. I literally have to go through my clients checklists and talk to them about how this thing that they think is really great may not serve them right. You want somebody that's making $150,000 a year or more, but if that means that he is working 100 hours a week and you don't get to see him, then what does that mean for your relationship?

Right, right, right. I know. And I. Yeah. And I think it's as an example. No, totally. And I think about this in the language that some clients use, which is by now I should, I should have a multilayer team. I should be running a P and L of this size. Well, that's different than what you want should is powerful, but it's often full of lies. Like, we have to really peel apart if that's what you want. And, you know, you mentioned before, you have a lot of clients who are highly educated, highly trained, highly successful. And it kind of comes with that territory that we do a lot of comparing. We do a lot. I mean, because the idea of, like, what great looks like has been handed to us by our graduate schools and our top universities and our analyst programs and such and such a field. And then you start carrying that, like, card in your back pocket for the next 20 years, being like, wait, am I measuring up? Am I. Am I on track? And like, I wanted to say, like, take that card and rip it in half and chuck it. Because it's. No, it doesn't serve you to use someone else's blueprint.

I hear this so much with my MBA clients, my law school clients, my med school clients. And as it relates to dating and relationship, it's seeing everybody getting married, getting engaged, baby showers, right? All of that. It's this very, very same kind of feeling, same thoughts, right? That, like, when I go to this baby shower, when I go to this wedding and I see all of my other colleagues, former classmates, who are here in their love lives, it's making me feel a certain kind of way.

Oh, my goodness. I mean, that is just, like the truest of human experiences. To look around and see what someone else has and think that it means something is wrong with you if you don't have it. And like you said earlier, to be reminded. I mean, the value of having a coach, having someone who can be your partner through all this thinking, is to be reminded of what really matters to you. I'll give you this silly example. Like, where I live, there's, you know, a lot of houses have turned over in the last year and a half. I don't know, the market in the pandemic has been nuts, as you know. And I'm watching all these homes get bought, torn down, and rebuilt very big where I live. And everyone's putting in these, like, four car garages and, like, you know, these living rooms that are, you know, you could hold a concert for 3,000 people and, like, just gigantic. And my husband and I had made a decision years ago that we were going to buy way beneath our means so that we could decide how much we wanted to work. And nonetheless, I mean, that is an active choice we built our lives around. And nonetheless, I walked by the four car garages. I'm like, do we need two more garages? Like, we don't only have. We only have two cars. We don't need four car garage. We don't want four cars. And yet it's so human to be tempted. It's so human to kind of forget who you are. And I think so much of the inner work that we have to do is to remember who we really are and what we really want. And again, you get messages from dating sites, you get messages from your sister who's married 15 years, you get messages from LinkedIn and what your classmates from B school are doing. And it's like you forget, your brain becomes soft and you're like, oh my God, maybe I want that. And you have to be reminded. You have to remind yourself. I don't want that.

One thing that I like to remind my clients and I want to remind the listeners out there is that we are all on our own journeys. Right. And like, what's good for them may not be what's good for you. Right. Ultimately. And when I think about it, when it comes to dating and marriage and relationships and things like that, a lot of relationships are actually not happy relationships and happy marriages. And also we think that if we get that, that our stasis, our homeostasis of happiness is going to change. And the research says that it actually just stays the same, that your foundational level of happiness is generally going to be the same. I think that it's up like 0.1%, but ultimately it's the same thing. So this should. This thinking that if I do this, if I'm there, it's going to be my life is going to be better is actually flawed in its thinking. Right. Logically speaking, because you're not going to be happier. You might more stressed. Right. All of these different things that we don't consider when we think about comparing and contrasting ourselves with our classmates. Right. We don't know if that person, you know, from a professional perspective has, you know, he's a founder of this company or she's a founder of this company, but she is in massive debt and the company is about to fold. But, you know, just because she has an article in Business Insider, we think she's doing something great, when in reality that might not be the case.

Exactly. I mean, we never know what's happening. You know, we used to say this early in our marriage and like, when all my friends, we were in our, you know, early stages before the kids. Like, you never know what's happening in someone else's home. Right. You Have a lot of assumptions because you see, and it's even worse now than we started, but social media and all the images that we put out there about what our home life is like or what our professional life is like, you never know what's happening in someone else's living room. So not only do I think you're right, that we are on our own path and we are creating our own lives, but the other thing I want to offer is that I think I see this a lot professionally with women, is that we are completely entitled to change the path and the. In the life we are building. And I. What I see a lot, especially like folks like you who went through an MBA program at a top school, is. Is this sense that I got on a track when I was 25 or 26 years old, and now I must stay on it until I retire. And it is like that same kind of acknowledgement of ourselves in relationship to other people, the acknowledgement of ourselves in relationship to work is that our desires change, we shift, we grow, our needs, you know, events in our lives change our priorities. The world does what it's done in the last 16 months. And things that matter to me in the past no longer matter. Of course, in a relationship, a marriage in particular, you hope that you kind of grow in the same path. But, you know, we are vibrant, dynamic, alive creatures who shift. And that is another piece of the work I think is similar to what you, you and I do, which is kind of meeting people where they are in a moment in time.

Yeah. The other thing that I want to add on to that, which I think is really important is this, like this generational shift, mindset shift that has to happen. Right. That.

Because we are like in a company, it doesn't mean that we have to stay there. Right. And I think our parents and our grandparents had that mentality that like, okay, you've. You're at a good company, you don't need to switch anything up, you're good to go, you're on this journey, there's no need. And you get this kind of societal, familial pressure. And it's also the same when it comes to dating and relationship in terms of how we relate to people. Right. We look at our parental relationships, our familial relationships, and get some sort of model in terms of, oh, this is how it's supposed to be done. This is how my parents relate. So this is how I need to be relating to my future partner or in the way that I date. Right. And I just want to Let everyone know it is 20, 21.

Especially women out there. You have more agency, you have more independence, you have more financial independence, stability. So you really do not need someone, right? But you can have someone.

I hope that lands so clearly with your listeners. Like this idea of pattern learning that we do around work and relationships that we grow up, particularly. Like, I'm a first generation American, so I grew up in an immigrant household with very different values, principles, behaviors than the people living in our neighborhood. I also grew up in a Middle Eastern household, so, like, just pretty different than how most kids are being raised in suburbia. Everything from what we ate to how we, you know, the languages we used to speak to each other, to how we thought about things like risk and loyalty, right? Everything was very imprinted from this. Not just my parents, but the lineage of this Middle Eastern heritage that I'm a part of. And for us to have.

The courage, because that's what I think a lot of it comes down to, is the courage to define how we want to live, how we want to relate, how we want to love, how we want to work is so important. And it's. It is so much effort because that stuff's imprinted. It's like multi. It's like intergenerational.

You're literally flipping your life around, flipping your life around.

My parents too. I mean, you know, I sometimes laugh because they had this like, massive risk they took to leave their home country. They were raised in Egypt to come here and to build a life here. And yet there, there are notions of loyalty to the company. The loyalty, like is. Is so highly valued. And their lack of tolerance for risk. When I told them I was leaving organizational life to start my own practice, they were worried, I mean, like, physically, visibly worried for my future. And I was like, it's a different time. But also like, this is, this is what living my life as a free agent looks like. And I want to know, and I believe for myself and I believe for the people you serve and that I serve, but we can make those shifts in and out. If I decide to go back into organization life, great. If I want to be out, fine. You want to be in a marriage, you want to be in a partnership, you want to be alone at a period in your life. I think it is a difficult thing to crack the code and to break the imprint that's been handed to us. But it is, I believe in my heart, the key to a fulfilling life. To draw your path and to take.

Your steps on it and to take some risks, right? And to take some risks. I know 100% that if you are not taking risk and being more trusting than your normal level set of trusting is in this love game, it's going to be hard for you to be successful. Right. And I think that in the professional realm as well, I'm sure that's the case too, where there are going to be moments where, yes, you have this really good situation going on where you're the director here or you're the VP there or whatever it may be, but there is something else that's calling you. Maybe it's a smaller company. Right. That you feel more aligned to. And even though it might look like a kind of, you know, a parallel shift. Right. In terms of there's no promotion or something, but it just, you know, it makes you alive. Right. That it might be the way for you to go.

Right.

And that's okay, too.

Yeah. And it's important for us to think about both in love and in work, that there's. It's in, like, the organization's best interest that you don't ask too much, that you don't ruffle feathers or rock the boat or, you know, pick your metaphor, like in love. Right. In the many ways, there's lots of messages that just say, like, be a good girl. Just go. And like, you know, be polite, look pretty. Don't ask too much. Don't ask him how much he makes. Don't, like, don't push. Don't push. And, you know, I sometimes think, like, there's. There's so much infrastructure meant to keep us small and quiet.

Yeah.

And what an act of bravery is to say, no, I need something. I want something. May I? I'm going to say it and put it out there. So love or work or any domain of your life, that is the work to find your voice and use it.

Yeah. It's interesting that you speak about making requests. Right. And making demands also. Right. That you can take up space to actually make demands. And a part of the work that I do is helping my clients do that in a way that they have confidence and feel secure and safe in speaking their truth or asserting their truth and their voice. Because I know that if you're not communicating your wants and your needs to your partner and giving them a roadmap, especially if it's a man in terms of how to please you, he's not going to know.

Yeah. Well, that's where resentment comes from. And I'll use examples with work. You can use examples with love. If we don't know if our manager, if our organizational head doesn't know what we want for our career, doesn't know the kinds of work we want more of, and doesn't know the kinds of work where we think is outside of our zone of genius, and we frankly should do less of it for everyone's good, if we haven't communicated it, then we can't be resentful that we're not getting it right. If I. If I think about myself in my last organizational role, I really love, for me, core need is autonomy to be able to not have to check in with someone on the daily about slides, or a piece of work if I don't communicate to my manager, hey, I do really well with a lot of freedom. And we're gonna have a really important clarifying meeting up front. The beginning of this project. We'll have a meeting at the midpoint, and then I will deliver to you something that you really want. And if I have problems, I commit that I will come and look for you and get your help. If I don't communicate that need, then I can't be pissed that she wants to meet every Thursday to see how the project's coming. Right? So I know I can't guarantee I'm gonna get everything I want, but I can guarantee I'm gonna get nothing I want if I don't make it clear.

That's right.

So you have to start with knowing what you need, what you want, who you are, where you thrive, under which conditions you deliver the best work or the best love the best relationship, and be willing to put it out there. And otherwise, we just don't get to complain about it afterwards.

Gain the clarity and then communicate that clarity to others. Beautiful, right? Definitely. Okay, so let's move on. Let's say we've been in this company for a couple of years, and I need a promotion. I deserve a promotion. Right. In our company, because I feel like a lot of us have been there, especially people of color who probably have been working a lot and not feeling 100% seen.

So what are your thoughts around that time and what. What can we do in those moments where I've been doing the work that's a level or two ahead, you know, above mine? Like, I feel like it's my time. Like, what are my next steps here?

Okay, well, the first thing I'll say is if we could rewind the tape, I would say before we get to that point, I think one of the mistakes I see a lot of people make, especially a lot of women make, is assume that your work will be noticed for its high quality without you doing some advocating for it. You know, I have sometimes quote a friend of mine who said that the message she got early in her career was keep your head down and you work up. That is the worst advice. It does. Nobody favors to think that your work is so remarkable that it will speak for itself. I wish that were the case. It's not the case. So if we rewind the tape, I'd say two things. One is build your list and your group of advocates early. And not just your manager. People laterally, people cross functionally, people elsewhere in the organization, people outside the organization. We need to have a board of directors, a personal board of directors and a personal list of advocates. Not everyone has to be 100% a fan. Like, they should challenge you. It should be people who are willing to. To tell you the truth and help you stay accountable. But we need. We. I think one of the mistakes a lot of women make is thinking like, professionally, I'm on my own and I want to.

Yeah.

I want to debunk that myth. We must do it in partnership. Second thing I'd say to the point of your work will speak to itself is keep a record of your wins and make sure you talk about it with your manager and people around you like. It is your responsibility to track your contribution, your achievements, the gains that you've made for you and the organization so that by the time you feel like you are ready for promotion, it's really not so much an I deserve this conversation as it's an I've earned this conversation. You have a highlight reel. You have a record that shows how your contributions have benefited the organization. This is something that I think a lot of women could use some muscles around, which is. It makes us uncomfortable. Again, we were socialized largely to blend, especially if we're brown or black. We were told to, like, don't make a lot of noise. Try to keep it. Make it comfortable. Right. And a woman who speaks for herself creates discomfort for other people.

Definitely.

So this is the exercise. And I would say to all, you know, anyone who's listening to this, who feels they are in a phase in their career where they're doing great things. It's not enough for just you to know about it now. You need evidence. You need a tracker. I have a tool on my website. They can download a really simple highlight reel tracker.

We'll put that in the show notes.

Yeah. Just so that you can. Are keeping a record because our brain forgets.

Yeah.

Sometimes when we win we're like, oh, onto the next thing. But then make sure people who need to know know.

And so then when we approach them saying, hey, this is how I'm feeling. We don't have the list in front of us, so it doesn't feel like we're actually. We have a very solid argument or case for that said promotion.

Yeah. And again, the language I like to use is, you've earned this. This isn't about entitlement. This is about, here's my record of achievement. This is how you guys have benefited from my contributions, my help, my efforts. So that's what I would say, is that there's some preparation to be done beforehand. Now, the other thing that happens is when you feel you're ready. This one thing we have to acknowledge is that this generally does not happen in an instant. The conversation to persuade someone that you're ready for the role internally, that you're ready to be elevated, is a series of conversations.

This is really important. This is really, really important because I think a lot of people think it's one and done.

I'm going to walk in there, declare myself. I will be handed a vice president title. And that is inside work to develop the patience, to develop a strategy with incremental steps and conversations. This is where a coach can be really helpful to you to help you build a plan. But a lot of us is our own internal patient, the ability to bear with it, the discomfort.

But I think it's so helpful for you to just say, like, manage your expectations around that. This is going to be a 2 to 6, 7, 8 conversation process.

Yeah, yeah. And do your homework, do your due diligence to understand what the organization rewards. Because this is another thing we make mistakes around. If we put our head down and we're hard workers, we're like good students, A students, and we just put our head down and get the work done. We sometimes miss really important cues about what matters to the people who make these decisions, what's shifting the people who are getting rewarded. So it's. It's, in a way, it's like. Anne Lamont is one of my favorite writers. Sometimes she says a B is a good grade. And sometimes you have to say, like, you know what? A minus work. B plus work. B work is okay if it gives you an exchange, the opportunity to pay attention and to build alliances and to do other things other than the task that's directly ahead of you. It's not simply about acing the test.

Yeah.

You're part of an ecosystem. So we have to be graceful and wise and strategic about the ecosystem.

I want to rewind back to what you were saying about building your own boardroom.

Right.

Because it requires a level of vulnerability and being able to ask for help or ask for something of someone else, which is a muscle that I think a lot of very high achieving women, especially in the professional realm, need to start to really kind of elevate. Right. Because oftentimes, as you were saying, it feels like me against the world. But to really be able to, you know, ascend in this, in this professional world, it's necessary. It is the difference between your colleague getting promotions and you potentially not.

Yeah. We're gonna spend a lifetime working against the old boys network. Right. This is, this is the work of a generation plus.

Yeah.

And we have to build our board. And I think the thing that I, you know, I alluded to it earlier when I said your board can't just be fans. Right? Eric, my. My co host says this is not your entourage. These are not your yes men. These are the people who are willing to challenge you, help you see your blind spot. They will open doors for you. They will put your name in for a conference panel to be promoted for something. But they're also going to tell you the truth. And I think this is like the fine line around sisterhood. Now, I'm someone who went to a women's college. I have lots of really, really close women friends. And what we want to make sure is that we go beyond commiserating into action. And I think this is a nuance that I would encourage every woman to think about. Not just do they feel you and hear you, but do they challenge you? Do they hold you up? Do they hold you accountable? So, yeah, there's a lot of work to be done around that. There's a lot of great resources out there. I can share some of them with you to help you build the right group of people. This is not a heroine's journey. This is a collective journey to grappling.

And the way that this relates to dating and relationships is that generally you will be in a casual dating situation and you will want to put promote to an actual exclusive relationship. Right. And there are things that you will have to say and do to get there. And it is not a one conversation thing. Or at least most of the time it shouldn't be. Right. Because going from casual dating to an exclusive relationship actually takes multiple conversations.

Funny.

Yeah, because it isn't. We're not in junior high anymore where he just holds your hand at the end of School and then you guys are going out.

Right? Or he walks you home and suddenly you're going out. No, that's not how it goes, Right. It's about talking about what you want. It's talking about what an exclusive relationship looks like. Right? What are the things that you need communication wise? How often are you guys going to be communicating in what medium?

Right.

How often are you guys going to be going out, who stays over where, what kind of date nights do you want to have? All of these different things are going to be necessary. It's an agreement. It's going to be a verbal agreement that both parties need to agree to. Right? What does exclusivity actually mean, all of that? If you don't have that verbal agreement, you don't have, you don't have, you don't have in a relationship, you don't have an exclusive relationship. And the thing is that I want to add to this is that that when you. And this is so funny because all of my clients, because most of my clients get in amazing relationships. When you approach these guys.

Most of the time they're not going to know.

But the initial conversation gets them thinking about what they actually need and want in a relationship as well. So that when you revisit this topic or conversation the second or the third time, you're going to have an actual fruitful conversation about what both parties need and what they want and how you guys can agree and move forward in something that is both. Which has amazing clarity when it comes to our relationship. Right.

You know, it's so funny about what you're saying is that of course I'll notice, and I'm sure your listeners notice there's no ultimatum in there. Right? Which is, I think, the other way we tend to talk to our bosses being like. If I think about even the way I have been approaching approach by people on my team in the past who want a promotion, it was this kind of metaphorical, like swinging the door open if I don't get promoted, I'm out of here type thing. We let it simmer, we let it burn us alive internally until we can no longer withhold our expectations and we blurt it and make it so.