Effective Fundraising Tips to Overcome Investor Rejection

All right. Welcome everyone to Heart of Entrepreneurship. Happy New Year. I think this is the first episode we've done this year. Yeah.

Happy New Year.

Good to see you. I like the curly hair.

Thank you. My beard goes with the beard. Yeah. Yeah, we're, we're aging.

So we had a, we had a nice holiday. How was your holiday? Was it good?

Oh, it's fantastic. Yeah. Good, good mix of time with friends and family and skiing and playing and cozy times inside. Yeah.

I'm starting to really appreciate, uh, as the kids get older, like that is really sacred time when they're younger. You don't really like, you're kind of with you all the time, but now you can like definitely feel the difference.

Well, having a son in boarding school makes that very apparent. So yeah, it was, it was really nice to have him home and have the whole family together for a couple of weeks.

So I want to, I want to explore something today that's a little different than what we normally do. You know, typically I'll throw a topic at you and we kind of talk about it and sometimes we get into like tactical things. Um, but starting in the new year, I want to, you know, as you know, I haven't really talked publicly, but I'm out doing something new. I'm working on something new and I'd like to fashion myself as this enlightened human who's done all this work on himself and whatever. And then, you know, I'm like pitching someone something and they're not paying attention and they're gonna, then they say, no, no thanks. And I notice I go below the line, which sort of means I get into a state of threat or I'm, I'm like questioning myself and, uh, all these things that I typically maybe coach someone else, like, yeah, you just gotta accept yourself and be okay with it. But all of a sudden when you're in the game itself, there's like, there's real, uh, I don't know, it's a— there's real challenges, challenges, or, or like your, your psyche and your mentality. It's, you know, it's easy to talk about it when you're not necessarily in it every day, but I think as I've kind of been re-entering it, I'm like, oh, well, that's interesting.

Like, you know, um, and so yeah, just like it's easy to say, oh, in order to grow you got to get outside your comfort zone, but it turns out getting outside your comfort zone is quite uncomfortable.

It feels uncomfortable. I think for me, I would like to believe that I would feel different. I think I do than maybe I did 10 years ago, but I'm still like, whoa, this is pretty interesting. So, what I wanted to talk about today, just for fun, maybe rule of threes, for any entrepreneur listening out there, again, we talk a lot about fear and how do you accept your fear. And we've talked about a bunch of really— and you always give me this feedback like I'm too heady, I'm in my head. And I'm curious to go, Okay, let's spend the next time, like, what are— when people find themselves in these situations, whether it's fundraising, whether it's challenging employee situations where they're for an extended period of time, they may be in like a threatening experience or they may just be in an experience that they're noticing. What are, what are some of the things you would like pretty specifically have them do? Hmm.

Well, first of all, like, orientation-wise, I mean, you know this, but for audience, like, for me and a number of clients I work with, like, thinking of life as your, um, presence dojo, like, you know, or, or a specific aspect of life, like your work, building a fund, startup I find really valuable. And just to be clear, you know, dojo, like karate dojo, right? It's like, okay, this is the place where I train to learn to be in a state of presence with different sparring partners, so to speak, like sparring partners, like investor meeting where they ignore me and then say no, or someone I really thought was going to say yes. Says no, or, um, yep. And what's— what I think is so helpful about that orientation is, at least I'll just speak for myself, like, um, I had a conversation with my 16-year-old recently and he told me, um, I'm not interested in college, like, I don't want a 9-to-5 job, I think school is pointless, like, I want to be a race car driver.

Yeah, having not ever shown any signs or interest in race cars.

Yeah, this was like a new— or it wasn't that quick, it was— I was sort of like, okay, like, well, what do you— what are you interested in? And then, yeah, then he dropped the like, I want to be a race car driver. And I felt a lot of fear. Um, and what I really appreciate about the orientation of like Life as a Presence Dojo is there's some part of me that's also able to be like, oh cool, like, this is triggering me. So this is yet another life circumstance that I today can't be fully present with, present, accept, open, curious, right? I got scared. I noticed I want to control my experience, especially his experience, right? I imagine these futures where he, you know, doesn't do school, doesn't go to college, and has like a hard crappy life. So, I notice all that, but there's enough of me that's like, "Oh, this is a formidable sparring partner in my presence, Dojo." Right?

And just to contrast that, what's the typical way a founder goes into a sales meeting or a fundraising meeting or a parent deals with a kid saying something like what your son said?

Well, the typical orientation, again, we start with like orientation is my job is to have life go a certain way.

Yeah.

Right. You know, my job is to make sure, make sure, right? Control like that my son, whatever, studies hard, you know, like whatever idea I have in my mind of what his path is supposed to be. Right. There's actually a good overlap, right? Or my startup child, you know, like whatever ideal path I have.

I need to raise this round and every time someone says no, it's going to be painful and And I—

in this case, it's actually bad, you know. It's a— it's bad because it thwarts me from achieving the thing that I know with certainty is the right thing for me to achieve that will lead to the good life. And because it's thwarted, that means maybe I'll end up with the bad life. And so I really resist it and want to control it and feel a lot of fear. And, um, and similarly, you know, I Well, parenting, I think, is one of the ultimate journeys in letting go. But I think startup is too, right? Because you get pretty attached, maybe not quite as much as you're attached to your kids' outcomes, but close. And if you don't have kids, it's like the closest you get. You get pretty attached to like, this thing must be successful. So let's come back to you, Jesse, right? You have a lot of, you know, you've achieved a bunch, and so you have a kind of an image of yourself, like an identity of yourself as this successful guy who, like, in your mind, of course, people are gonna, you know, be grateful for the privilege to get to, you know, me. Yeah, be in business with you and give you money that you believe you're gonna, you know, return what, you know, wonderful return for them, and And so when someone says no, there's like a couple layers, right? One is the like, that's not what I thought was going to happen, right? And so in general, we, you know, it's like, but my mind imagined this thing. And so there's a grief process that we generally resist of like, can you grieve and feel disappointed? Yeah, that like it didn't go the way you imagined it would go, right? Um, then there's the like this doesn't fit with my identity of who I am. So, that it's threatening to the identity, like, it gets much bigger than just, oh, this one investor said no. It's like, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not really that great. And then I think there's a deeper level, you know, we're still just a bunch of humans, you know, playing startup or playing fun. And so, we have all our like childhood stuff of like any lowercase t trauma anyways, you didn't feel fully loved or seen or appreciated, also get triggered by essentially the rejection, right? Like, we're social beings. Like, we are wired to want approval. And we perceive someone saying no to investing in our startup or our company or our fund pretty similarly to like someone rejecting you. Like, I don't want to be your friend. I don't want to be your partner. And so, it just hits us at all these layers. And again, if you're oriented toward, well, life or my startup or my fund is a dojo— I'll keep using that word— a platform for my growth, then a part of you is like, oh, interesting, this is showing me I still have some unhealed stuff, right? Like, like, I think if you fully love yourself unconditionally, you're less likely to get triggered by somebody else who you perceive to not be loving you or to be rejecting you or not approving of you.

Right.

So it just shows you, okay, there's still some part of myself that I haven't fully loved or integrated. Like, it's revealing.

I want to like— I want to go to— I want to double-click a bunch into these. So the dojo thing makes sense, and I think what you said is typically people don't relate to that that way. They relate to it as like survival, and then it's like reactivity and reactivity. And so you talk— yeah, and you talk to any entrepreneur— I mean, now I'm talking to people who run funds and they're all just like, it's the worst. Raising money is the worst because you're just, you know, you're literally like, to your point, those 3 things are happening to you every day.

Yeah.

And they feel existential.

But I wonder also, you kind of have to like, in order to just be doing, putting all the energy into doing the thing, you know, you sort of have to convince yourself it's this like really awesome thing, right? And so like, I remember the feeling of like, almost like this being like this little boy with this like beautiful, like golden ball, you know, that's like my toy. And I'm like, look at this. And people are like, eh, not that great. It's like, oh, like it just, it's ouch. Like there's a real ouch to it. Like, so I just want to acknowledge like that dynamic. And I think that's very normal.

And then underneath that, you know, you rationalize it or you just kind of avoid it or like, But let's go. I want to go to like, if, if you could be like standing on my shoulder, right? And I'm like, I get out of this pitch with someone and I notice I feel very upset and sad, just a little like frustrated or just maybe discouraged. I use that word a week or two ago with a friend of mine. He's like, Jesse Pujji is discouraged. I've like never— like, I don't know that energy. And you're not like, that's a little— I'm like, oh, I don't actually know that energy in me either. And I know there's As you know, there's bigger stuff happening for me right now, and I know that it's part of that. But in that exact moment where discouragement or all these things show up and you're standing here and you're live coaching, what's the first thing you would have me do?

The first thing I would have you do is welcome your sadness.

And how? How would I do that?

Locate it in your body. Be like, okay, yeah, you're disappointed, Jesse. Where in your body does that show up? Okay. And you would say—

What do people typically do just as an alternative?

Oh, uh, like what's the failure pattern as we call it here, huh? Um, distract themselves.

Right. So maybe jumping on and reaching out to 5 other potential investors.

Maybe, um, or having a drink or smoking a joint or watching, you know, TV or yeah, or jumping into work and just like over-functioning just to kind of not feel it, um, and make themselves feel better. Sometimes there's defensive patterns like, screw those guys, those idiots, you know, like they don't know, or I'll show them, right? Like the chip on the shoulder. So there's all sorts of defense mechanisms that typically kick in to avoid feeling the sadness and frankly the fear, because it's— there's sadness, but there's also like, oh, I thought, I thought this was going to go well, and then there maybe would be like an upward spiral of like You know, and now all of a sudden I'm like, oh, I mean, this is the, this is the entrepreneur roller coaster is the like one moment I think it's all going to be up into the right and I'm going to IPO for billions of dollars. And then literally the next moment it's like, oh, this, I'm just going to fail. And, you know, I'm wasting my time. I'm wasting my time.

I'm going to almost feel like the first thing, the one you said, I almost think the first thing is actually probably just to slow down and actually build some awareness. Over how you've been affected. Because I think old me and a lot of people I interact with, I'm like, yeah, you may say, you're— are you feeling sad? They're like, I'm not sad. No, I'm like— and they don't even realize what's taking place because the machine in their system is already, you know, doing its defensive pattern.

Yeah. And yeah, I mean, one of the most simple ways to think about whether you're likely in a defense pattern is if you're in your head, not your body.

Yeah.

And I mean, I've spent, I spent decades like in my, you know, just basically like rationalized, like in my head, not really feeling what was in my body, at least not consciously. So yeah, I like what you said, like, hold on, like your, your mind is going to be generating all sorts of thoughts to like distract you or strategize or try to figure it out or rationalize it. So can you like shift your attention down from your head to your body? And even just like you said, ask the, oh, what am I feeling right now?

Yeah. It's almost like, I mean, as a, as a practice, maybe I'm just, I'm trying to get to like, even just for myself.

Yeah.

Like after meetings, like have 15 minutes of just, not, not that you'll spend the whole 5 minutes, you'll get 5 minutes, but schedule 15 minutes in your calendar so that of the, in the 15 you can get 3 minutes even or 5 of just, I'm gonna like just center myself.

Be, be with myself.

Yeah. Be with myself. And, and then see, and I notice what's coming up and, and then the next thing is okay, Okay, maybe sadness showed up, or fear, or something else.

Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm thinking about resilience, and I just saw something, I don't know, it's called like The Resilient Entrepreneur or something, but like the, the typical pattern, you know, what you call failure pattern, is just go right to the next meeting.

Yep.

And I think what happens is all that emotion just gets bottled up, and then it kind of leaks out in all these unhealthy ways. So, I actually think if you want to be more resilient, right? Like, especially if you're, you know, well, you were just in New York, had like back-to-back meetings, right? Like, that's tricky.

I'm thinking about, yeah.

Yeah. If you have to go right from a rejection, especially when you thought they were going to say it, right into the next meeting, like, that's, you set yourself up for a pretty big challenge. Yeah. You know, nothing wrong with it, but like, it's likely going to be more challenging than if you gave yourself time to like have a bit of a reset.

Yeah.

And the, the sort of lie that our minds tell us, like, no, no, don't, don't feel right now because then you're screwed. Like, if you let yourself feel, then you're just going to go down, you're going to be like a puddle. Like, you need to be strong and tough so you can get to your next meeting. Um, from my experience, like, if you really feel the feeling all the way through to completion, it doesn't take that long and actually helps you reset and get present again for your next meeting.

Yeah, I love that.

And I've been fond, especially this past year, of saying like, uh, a feeling is worth a thousand thoughts. I love that. Picture's worth a thousand words. Like, yeah, I just—

I—

it's, it's been especially like an aha for me because I spent years coaching thoughts. And I don't want to dismiss that, like there's value in that, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy.

Yeah, beliefs.

Yeah, like challenging the stories your mind makes up, seeing through that. Like, all that is very useful. And what I've been learning, especially over the last year or so, is that often the entire thought pattern is really just a strategy to avoid feeling something, right? And if you again bring your attention down to your body where the feelings actually live, notice the sensations in your body, allow them, versus what we usually do, which is like, fuck, I don't want to feel that. No, go away, sadness. You know, like, I need to be tough. Go away. Just fully allow it to move through you, it's like waves. It's actually amazing how entire patterns of thought can just dissolve because they're all moving through.

Yeah, and I think the most touchstone for most people, and whenever I explain this stuff, is like it's just with your spouse or significant other where you can be in the most heated argument ever about something and literally if the energy or the emotion feels or changes or someone cries or someone doesn't, like you could literally go from to like cuddling with that. The whole thought pattern, you're like, what were we? I don't even remember what it was. You were just so, the feeling was so strong and it was just looping in your brain. Right.

Because the real issue is essentially, am I feeling loved or not? Right. Right.

Like, or I'm feeling something I'm not willing. Yeah. I'm not willing to feel. You know, the other thing I've noticed that's interesting, I just, it's actually fun now. Like I'm like kind of actually thinking about what I've been experiencing last few weeks in New York. You mentioned I had like 8 meetings, right? Running around New York City in between the meetings, which is not a particularly calming experience. And you know that, have you heard this? Like the kids, when you have kids, especially younger kids, they have, I forget what they call it. It's like post-school letdown syndrome. Or post-school, like basically, I've never heard of it. Dumb name for the idea that kids come home and they're grumpy after school and they're much more prone to throwing tantrums or fits, especially when they're 4 or 5, like they're younger.

Mm-hmm.

And the reason that they, as a scientist or whatever, have determined is, well, at school they're like on the whole day.

Ah, yes.

Yeah.

And so the second then they come home, they're like, Oh, I can be a, I can let my guard down and just be a little jerk.

And it's interesting because when I'm realizing if I'm not taking that time in between meetings, I basically am like on, on, on, on. And then I realized I've gotten to the end of the days and I'm like, woo, like I am, I am really cashed. And even then, like thinking about what happened last week when we were talking about it, it's like, I then had like another thing and I flew somewhere and then I was like real. And it really like, it almost was like a letdown, a much bigger letdown. Not because of that in particular meeting, but because I had been avoiding it all week basically, or I hadn't been doing the reset button.

Yeah, every— pretty much everything in nature works in cycles, right? It's like the sun comes and goes, you know, we revolve around the sun, certain, you know, we rotate, like everything is in cycles. And for some reason, we humans try to just ignore that and we burn ourselves out, right? It's like, okay, if you're going to exert a ton, be on, exert a lot of energy, like, yeah, you need to create some space to process and come back down before you go up again. And when we try to just like push linearly, yeah, that's what often leads to burnout.

All right, so, so you, you slow down, you notice what you're feeling. Now let's go back. You feel sadness, you locate it in your body.

Yeah.

Then what?

Uh, you know, if you're schooled in conscious leadership, I'd ask you, are you above or below the line around this meeting you just had?

Probably below.

You'd probably say below. And then I'd say—

it's worth noting, I think, that even when the meeting goes well and the person committed, you know, gave you money, you, you were probably still below the line.

You might be.

Or, you know, just because it went well doesn't mean that you're below, above or below, right?

Yeah, you might be attached to that. And yeah, you can have like—

you're at the effect of something outside of yourself. Yes.

Um, Yeah, I will say it is easier to accept reality as it is when it's going the way you want it to go. Exactly. And like to your point earlier, it is more challenging. Like that's why during fundraising, people go below the line more. Of course, it's more challenging when there's high stakes things that don't go the way you want. You know, in some way I'm sort of outlining the Conscious Leadership Shift process, but I'll weave in some other stuff. So that process is, can you accept yourself for being below the line? Which is basically just, in some way, it's like, can you just allow yourself to be human, right? And acknowledge that human beings are wired to perceive threat. And when things that matter to you don't go the way you thought, it's very common to perceive it as threatening and to be scared and to resist it and wish it hadn't happened that way. Like, that's just so normal. And I think in some way, you know, you said this at the beginning of the, the, um, episode, like, the more work you've done, sometimes the less accepting you are of your humanity. And I, I, you know, resonate with this too. It's like, oh my God, I've done all this work and still You know, one investor says no and I'm like, you know, I mean, it's been reactive and below the line is like, you know, no, it's not still. It's just right now in this moment you are. That's what you're experiencing. And so, you know, in some way there's a trap of like being below the line about being below the line. It's like I shouldn't be feeling, I shouldn't be in a reactive mode or I shouldn't be in a state of threat. So again, the second step is some version of, can you just accept yourself for being exactly where you are, feeling what you're feeling?

And I think most people probably would go, oh yeah, I am feeling a little bummed about that. No, don't feel bummed. You got 5 more meetings next week. Like you wouldn't, you wouldn't say it's okay to feel bummed. You would just, you would start re— like, at least I would, you know, like have like, oh no, no. And then. And then at least for me, just to give it voice, like it, then I start feeling really stuck.

Mm.

Cause I haven't felt the feeling.

Yeah.

Cause I'm just resisting it. Like I'm, I'm, and then that brings me back into my head and then I'm like back in my head and I'm like, okay, maybe that, maybe we need to change something. Maybe like, you know, and you're, and you're like solving all these things just cuz for me at least, especially sadness, I'm like, I wasn't willing to just be like, oh man, poor, poor, poor me. Poor. That sucks. You know that I'm feeling this or whatever. I'm feeling this way.

Yeah. I'm disappointed. Yeah, that, that's super common that we have it. You know, most people believe that like, oh, it's good to feel joy and excitement, and it's bad to feel sad or scared or angry. So when those feelings arise, we just find a way to kind of paper over them or rationalize them or push through or something like that. And it's pretty counterintuitive. Again, I think for a lot of people that like, that it's, you know, just like Vulnerability is strength. It's a cliché, but a lot of people are like, "Is it really or do I just look like a wimp?" It is really and it takes actually experiencing it. I've seen people, leaders in a group really say something vulnerable and how much people appreciate and respect the courage that that took, et cetera. So, in kind of a similar way, it takes maybe courage to feel the feelings that we typically want to push away. It certainly takes intentionality because most of us by default are like, "Uh-oh, this is bad. I need to fundraise. I can't feel this right now." Got to get rid of this.

Yeah.

Yeah. I got to push through. I got to move through. And the irony is, yeah, if you just really give it, like you said, even just a few minutes of like, "Ah, fuck. I'm really disappointed." you know, like it'll move through you, um, more quickly. And then, you know, the place I might go next, essentially the, you know, the next question is, are you willing to shift from a state of threat to a state of presence, or from below line to above the line? Um, and like the 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership offer sort of guidance about how you might do that. But the— I would say the most common path that I would go, um, would be help you look at what stories are you— is your mind making up based on what just happened? Yeah. So we— I don't know if you want to play, like, yeah, what story is—

was your mind doing this wrong, right? Or that person doesn't like me, or is not behind me, or, um, this is gonna be harder than I thought. I don't want to be doing this. Those are common ones for me.

Yeah, so there's, there's sort of two flavors. One is about the thing that just happened— I screwed it up, I did it wrong, they don't like me. Um, and then the other is you, you tend to extrapolate or project and make up stories about the future of like what's going to happen now, right? And you, you like— that's where the big emotional swing comes from. You were living into imagining this bright future where everyone said yes and it was so easy and it just all happened. And then you switch to like, oh no, everyone's gonna say no, right? Just the— we generalize, right? Um, this one thing that happened into, um, yeah, like a, you know, it's always going to be that way. And, you know, um, I forgot if we talked about this before.

This—

I was like I don't know, over a decade ago I read, um, Martin Seligman's Learned Optimism book. Um, he was like the father of positive psychology, and he had this really simple distinction. I'll try to remember it, which was like, like, um, for optimists— that's what he labels it— when setbacks happen, optimists tend to label the setback as, um, temporary and specific. Hmm. So temporary, right? Like, okay, this one investor said no. And specific, like, okay, it's just, you know, it's just this. And pessimists tend to label that same exact experience as permanent and pervasive.

Hmm.

So let me be more, even more clear about it. So the specific part is like, oh, I didn't do well in that meeting. And the temporary is like, okay, this particular investor said no. Right. But permanent and pervasive is like, oh God, all investors are going to say no because I suck at fundraising. So I was like permanent, it's always going to be this way and pervasive because it means something fundamental about me. And I thought that was just such a—

Mine is not mine, by the way. Well, where my head went is like all kinds of other interesting, like I have both in me.

Yeah, of course.

Pessimist and like, but my inner pessimist is he knows I'm still really good at pitching, so it's never anything I did wrong in the pitch. I mean, there's always— you can always be better at a pitch, but it's always like, I shouldn't be doing this. This is not a good use. Like, why am I spending my time on this? Which I think for especially when you've already had some success and I'm like, you know, you're like, for whatever reason, that's the pessimist story that pervades when I'm like in that.

Yeah, it's a good defense mechanism, right? It's like, I'm above this.

It's beautiful.

I don't even want to do this anyway. Why am I doing this? Because the, the, your system wants to avoid feeling those feelings, and it's basically trying to get you to stop doing the thing that's, you know, putting, um, putting that at risk or create it, you know, creating risk.

Okay, so that, so look at the stories. What else is in the, in this process?

Um, I, this one's a nuanced You know, I love the exercise of like, are you willing to take your 100% responsibility for how that went?

And, um, actually, just let's pause on that one for a second because I think that one has been helpful for me because oftentimes when I find myself being disappointed about something in my life, um, whether it's something I expected from my wife or kids or whether it's in these pitch, you know, pitch meetings, it's like It, it's a good reality check because usually I came in with an expectation that I was not conscious of in the moment.

Yeah.

And, and like we talked about meditating after the meeting or something and presencing, but even before a conversation, just like, are you truly open to whatever is about to happen? Or like, are you— is whatever is about to happen gonna be your— the— for your highest and best good? Can you truly— because I think I found myself in this process of like Oh yeah, I just, it's so subtle and I don't even know that this is happening where I'm like, oh yeah, this, this is, you know, this is a big one. This is gonna be a good one. This is, you know, and that's, and honestly for me at least, that's way more responsible usually for my letdown than anything else that, that happens. Cause I, you know, cause I am, I can, I'm resilient. I've lived through a lot. I've seen a lot, but it's, it's almost always these like very, very small moments of, of high expectations. That then—

Yeah, which what I don't want people to take away from that, and some people tend to, is don't have high expectations, right? I'm a, I'm a dreamer. I love dreaming. I love believing in my clients' dreams, encouraging them to dream. So the trick is not to not have high expectations, is to not be attached to those high expectations.

Right.

And it's, it's really subtle and nuanced, but you, you can feel the difference of like, I can like, oh, I imagine them saying yes, I'm so excited about it, but I'm not like attached to being right that that's what should happen. And I'm genuinely like open and curious, like, okay, if they say no, how could that be just as good or better, right? And it, it's all— it's kind of like holding a paradox of like, I really want it to happen and I don't know for sure that that's what should happen. So it's like you can hold it lightly. Like, I think about that a lot.

Yeah, I've heard some people say like the outcome, like it's a helpful frame of like you have the right to the, to the, like to your dream and to the conversation. You can desire whatever you want.

Totally.

You have no right to the outcome. That, that's just right.

You're not entitled to that happening.

Yeah. And when you're finding attached to the outcome, you know, most things you can't actually control whether it happens. Yeah. And incidentally, like I find myself at least, especially in pitching when I'm, when I'm getting attached to outcomes, I'm like worse. Like I'm, I'm less dynamic. I'm less flexible. Um, like I just end up finding myself in a different place. So, so yeah, I think, I think the responsibility thing is helpful again, especially to like how you created the condition for your, for your upset. And for me, that's a really good one.

Um, Yeah, there's two layers. Let's talk about responsibility for a second because there's, there's two layers to it. One is the how did I create this experience for myself of like being disappointed, you know, feeling this way. And that's exactly what you said, maybe like attachment to the outcome. Um, by the way, there's this other paradox which we've talked about, I think, which is the less attached you are the outcome, the easier it is to create. Because you just show up with a lot more fluidity when you're not attached.

Totally.

And, um, that's a real challenge, you know, for a lot of founders. And try— it's like, oh, but I really want to raise the money. And I'm, um— so it takes, it takes real intentionality and real, um, I guess, courage. Like, I think there's this, there's this fear that if I let go of attachment, then I won't be as motivated, and I won't be as driven, and I won't drive toward it, and I'll be apathetic, which is not what's— it's not true from my experience. So, so layer 1 is like, how did I create my experience? Okay, I had this expectation, I got attached to it, and then life didn't go— it didn't meet my expectation, right? The meeting didn't go the way I pictured it. And so again, sadness is the energy of letting go. There's no problem, it's just, it's just there's a process of letting go of that expectation so that you can be with reality as it is. Like, that's what we mean by coming back into a state of presence. And then there's just the, like, well, I wanted them to say yes and they said no, so how curious can I be about, like, what might I have done differently that might have had them say yes, if anything? Um, and the nuance here is people tend to blame themselves and, and say they're taking responsibility. Because they still are believing that it's bad that the investor said no. And so they're like, they're trying to take responsibility, but really they're just like, what did I do wrong? There's like a feeling of like, you screwed up. Now we need to figure out what you screwed up, as opposed to just like, oh, I wanted them to say yes and they said no. Hmm. Like, I wonder how I might have contributed to that happening. Yeah.

Yeah, that really resonates. And I think the, like, There was some order of ops we're kind of talking about, right? It's like, slow your butt, like, still your, yourself down, sense what you might be feeling, actually feel the feeling, start to look for ways that your stories are, are sort of, you know, maybe not true, this responsibility piece. And then, and only then can you get curious about what you could have learned or done differently. And the reason I'm saying this, by the way, it's for myself really. Cause what I do is before I get to even one level down, I'm like, Okay. Reflect feedback. What could we have done differently? What are we learning? Maybe the format's not right. Maybe we have to change the way this is structured. Like, and, and I find myself in that pattern a ton, which is I don't even get to this whole bottom. Like, I don't feel that I'm, I'm just like, ooh, let me, let me adjust the, let me try to find the answer. And I think in sales in particular, it can get very tempting to keep, you know, it is good in sales to, to like iterate obviously. But I think when you're iterating from that place, you end up in— you can end up in very bizarre situations or just situations where you're, where you're not really learning the thing you need to learn.

Hmm. Yeah, it's like a reactive pattern is what I hear you saying, right? It's just like, oh, I don't want to feel this. Okay, I gotta just figure out what to do so I never feel this again. And the insights you have are— I think what I'm hearing are not nearly as useful or rich as when you shift to a state of presence and you're truly curious about, you know, what you could have done differently.

Yeah, I think it's typically it's when, you know, you're, you start spinning essentially. You're like, well, I could do this differently, but I don't want to do that. I want to do this instead. And like, blah, blah, blah. And then you, at least for me, you're not really, you're just playing this game with yourself and you're not actually figuring out the thing that you're hearing. And, you know, the interesting thing about selling in general is, man, selling is such an amazing source of feedback. Whether it's selling to companies and enterprise, whether it's fundraising, like it's a very rich source of information that oftentimes I think we don't take advantage of because we just get so stuck in that, in that place.

Yeah. One thought I just had when you mentioned selling is like, there's sort of more obvious insights that might come like, oh, this, you know, the way we pitched it, you know, wasn't as clear, or we should have said this or that. But then there's like, if you really get curious, you might start asking things like, well, what is even my relationship to fundraising? Right? Like, what's my— oh, fundraising is, you know, hard and means to an end. Yeah, scary. Or yeah, or investors are pariahs, but I have, you know, it's like a, what's it called, like a necessary evil. And those mindsets, even before you any strategy, any way you communicate, will affect how you show up and how it goes. So that's what I like about like the deeper curiosity that we did. I just did this retreat in Sun Valley and we did an exercise around that, like fundraising is dot, dot, dot, you know, hiring is, building a startup is, and like really had people reflect like, what are, what is my like, like knee jerk, like just first thing that comes to mind, what are my beliefs about these different aspects of building the company? And how are those beliefs impacting how I show up and, and, you know, how I perform. And it was really insightful for people to realize just how much those beliefs were shaping their experience. And because we're on the topic of fundraising, one of the participants was like, oh, that's interesting, I love sales, I love sales and I hate fundraising. And we're like, oh, that's it, you know, like, I love sales because I'm like giving, you know, this buyer like an opportunity to like get real something they really value. And they're like, well, how, you know, how is that different from fundraising? And, you know, they're like, oh, wow. Yeah, I guess it could be that too. Um, and, and, you know, there's a way in which if you think of it more that way, it's like, okay, like if a buyer doesn't buy because it's not a good fit, it's not, you know, sometimes we take that personally too, but it's a little easier to be like, oh yeah, it's just not a good fit. Right. Or like, yeah. Again, like all these metaphors.

Some people like fundraising has just a higher chance that you make it about yourself, basically.

Yeah. And I mean, people do with sales too, but like, right, for whatever reason, like if you're selling the whole company, not, you know what I mean? Like you're selling like a stake in the company. Yeah. It feels more like, yeah, more personal. The.

The, the idea of, of the dojo, how do you, how do you remind yourself of that? How do you keep it present? Because again, these conversations on a podcast on Friday afternoon are great.

Yeah, next week you got to go back in and So, um, I really resonate with the idea of running lots of experiments. And, um, so instead of like, oh, there's one answer, you know, like, I invite people like to run a number of experiments around your question, like, how do I keep this front of mind? Um, so there's a, you know, there's tons of structures that we can use. Here's what I'd say: I would not rely on your memory, right? Right. It's like the time where you most need to remember it is usually the time where it's least accessible in your memory. So, you know, whether it's a Post-it note on your laptop or a printout that you keep, you know, on your desk, or a little statue of— like, I have a little Buddha statue I'm looking at, you know, I'm like you know, or like something ex— like an external cue, um, a calendar reminder, an app reminder, um, some people like set up like a Google Sheet.

And yeah, once upon a time you had me keep index cards in my back pocket and pull them out before a meeting. Maybe I'll try that again.

That's a great example, right? Like some physical structure or some digital structure that, um, you don't have to rely on your memory, like it's going to pop up or you're going to see it. And I do, you know, the good news is there is a compounding effect to practice. So I do find, you know, like, like they say, right, you do something for, you know, 30 to 60 days in a row, it becomes more of a habit. So I have found, and many, many, you know, founders I've worked with have found, that over time, if you practice paying attention to, you know, where am I and And which is really like the domino habit, right? Like first thing is just to notice. And then there's like the whole dominoes of like shifting over time. You get, yeah, it gets easier. Like it becomes more habitual for your, you know, to put attention on that.

Yeah. Two that I've been playing with, with medium degrees of success. One is this, that there's like the Ram Dass line and this too. Where he kind of says no matter what you're experiencing, just like it's, it's part of the universe or God, like, and this too, and like whatever it is, that's been one. And then another one that I've been playing with has been like, this is kind of a crazy one, but it's like if you imagine like God, universe, you pick your, your source, whatever, like existence, pick your favorite word. Um, I'm like, I have this idea of this thing I want to do and every meeting I take is, is and someone like, it's like God being like, well, what about, don't, like, you should, it's like a, it's like a piece of feedback to shape the idea to make it better or to like make it more aligned to me actually, which a lot of the conversations I've been having, they sometimes feel like alignment conversations, not yes or no feedback conversations.

Um, so I don't know, those, I'm not, it's almost like the universe is mirroring I was gonna say, like, each person is a different—

it's the same person just giving me different feedback and guiding me along a path for where this ultimately ought to be and end up. Um, and because a lot of conversations I've had have been, have been rich in, in like feedback in some sense of like, well, you know, what about this way? Have you thought about it this way? Or whatever. So anyway, those have just been two I've been trying.

Yeah. And what's cool about that is the less attached you are to the outcome probably the more interesting information you'll get, right?

Like, totally, totally.

You'd be more open to hear someone give you feedback. You'd be more curious, like genuinely curious about like, oh, what— it's so— so you're saying no? What, what makes it not a fit for you, right? Versus, yeah, you know, if, if you're just like, oh shit, you know, you're just— you're kind of probably not listening.

And especially like my, my thing, my thing I'm working on is like very Midwest-centric. And like I've noticed when I'm staying kind of in a good zone, someone's like, oh, let me actually introduce you. This person would be really good because they'll care a lot about this. I don't care about this, but that person will care. And I'm like, oh, okay. If I do this constantly, I keep getting 3 intros to people who are more likely to care about it. This whole process is gonna go back, you know, and, and in New York that happened quite a few times. And like, it's like super interesting that there's, there's a lot of big dogs who are from the Midwest or from St. Louis actually in particular. And it's like, oh yeah, those, those are conversations. They'll. Will be more fruitful. So, um, I don't want to say—

tell the whole, like, parable of the Chinese farmer, but I really like the— look it up if you're interested— but I really like the, the conclusion of it, which is sort of like, good news, bad news, who knows, right? That I find that really helpful because my mind just wants to label, like, oh, that's bad, that's good, that's bad, that's good. But I'm like, I don't— I don't— you know, is it— would it have been better if they invested? Like, maybe, like you said, maybe this intro will be more valuable, or maybe they would have been a pain in my like, you know, pain in my ass, or like, like, just to hold much more lightly my mind's idea of what's good and bad so that I can be more in flow with just life as it is. Yeah, um, there's something we skipped— I skipped over that's like the simplest of all of this, which is just take a deep breath, right? And even more so would be like, you know, 4x4 breathing, where you breathe in, right? In for 4 seconds, out for 4 seconds. You do that 4 times, about a 30-second reset. Sometimes just that, like, maybe you still have back-to-back meetings, maybe you don't have the 15 minutes in between. Even just the difference of like starting, you know, or giving yourself 30 seconds between every meeting, take a few deep breaths, will make like a huge difference. And that also could be a trigger to then Okay, what am I feeling, right? So, um, I just, I wanna, I'd feel remiss if I didn't come back to like the most basic of shift moves.

It's just simplicity on the other side of complexity. Just, uh, just breathe, baby. Notice your breath and keep breathing.

Just breathe.

All right, let's end it there.

All right, till next time.

This was a great sesh.

Thank you. Bye.