The Psychology of Motivation No One Taught You

Hello, Dave.

Hello, Jesse.

Welcome everyone to Heart of Entrepreneurship, where myself, Jesse Pujji, serial entrepreneur, and Dave Kashen, coach extraordinaire, discuss building businesses from heart. And I think we challenge the assumption that you have to be— get— what's, what's the one they always say? Getting punched in the face and eating glass. Have you heard that one?

Yes.

Like entrepreneurship is daily getting punched in the face or somebody said it's either getting punched in the face or getting ice cream every single day. I've heard it described that way. Yeah.

The, the simple way I've been thinking about it lately is that it's challenging the belief that success requires suffering.

Ooh. I think that's our tagline.

Pervasive belief.

Yeah. Let's make that our tagline. Challenging the belief that success requires suffering. I like it. And actually that's a good segue into the topic I have for you today, which for those who don't know, I don't tell Dave these ahead of time. I just make them up. But it's been coming up a lot lately and you wrote a post on LinkedIn about it. And so I thought it'd be fun to explore it because it feels a little second level from the, from the last, you know, 20 episodes or whatever. So. We talk about dirty fuel versus clean fuel. And it's this idea. The first step of this is like most people are not even, and we've talked about ego. It's like most people are not even aware that there's this voice in their head that's not them that's telling them what to do. And when they're mad at someone, they're like, I'm mad at you.

You did this.

They're blaming. Most of us live our life. That's, I probably lived my life 95% of the way that, that way up until 7, 8 years ago. And even still, probably still 50/50, right? At best.

So specifically, like, identified as the voice in the head, as the voice in the head and the thoughts.

Yeah. And then, you know, I've sent you a lot of people over the years who have become clients, and I don't think I've ever shared this with you, but there's definitely been a trend I've noticed, which is there's like people who, who— there's two types of people generally, I'd say. One, like, they go deep with you and like they become a coaching client for life and they— it's life-changing. And then there's another, there's another version that they like work with you for 6, months, maybe a couple years, they kind of like, they understand themselves. And specifically, like, they understand maybe their triggers and the things that are the fear that's there, but they, but they get up to the edge of the cliff to know themselves. And they're like, it was good to know you, Dave. Like, uh, that was helpful work we did. See you later. And I, you know, you know me, I'm, I'm pretty out there and I'll just ask people, I'm like, so what, what's wrong with you? Why'd you stop? And the, you know, and, and, and the answer, and you and I worked through this in the past. Is they go, yeah, like, he helped me see how I use fear to motivate myself. I use dirty fuel. Um, but I, but like, I'm not gonna let that— that's, that's my edge. That's how I do what I do. And so now I'm aware of it now. So at least I know it and I can kind of see the patterns.

Yeah.

But I'm not gonna mess with those patterns because those patterns are like—

I had a, someone, a potential client or someone that was going to come to my, or may come to my retreat in Sun Valley in January. And I, he basically said to me, like, he was in a group with some sort of post-exit founders that are doing some of this work. And he's like, should I wait? Right? Like, should I wait until fear and lack has gotten me to my number, right? Or to my exit and then do the deep work, which is what a lot of people do. And I think it is exactly what you're pointing to. It's sort of like this fear, the fear of not being scared.

Yeah. The fear of not being, of not having fear.

Yeah.

Or like, I mean, there's a pretty common, I mean, you just, we said at the top of this is like success. Like there's a saying of like chips, chips on shoulders, put chips in pockets. Yeah. There's, I mean, there's an extreme other version of it that there's a few different versions of it just to give it voice. One is like, no, you should use somebody. There's another post Andrew just showed me, weaponize your trauma. Like you should use this. It's a good thing. And then there's, there's sort of you and me on the other side, like frolicking around and, you know, with butterflies and saying you don't need it. Then there's a middle zone, which is like, I don't want this to be so hard. Does it need to be this hard? And, and some people tell me it has to be this hard. And some people tell me, well, no, it can't, doesn't have to be this hard. Um, but the, but I'm sure you see this a lot. The topic I wanna talk about, and then we can, we can take, jump into it, is like, sure, we've talked all about all these things. Now you see you have fear and now you're like, but I don't wanna let it go, or I can't let it go. I can't change myself. I can't. So I want to get into like the next level, uh, today.

Yeah. And let, let's unpack a little bit. Because it doesn't always show up as fear. It might show up as like a sense of lack, like a void, like, okay, now, you know, that's, that's often what propels us is this, like, I need to prove something. I, I'm not, I feel like I'm not enough, but if I can build this business, then I'll feel like enough, or I'll, I'll prove to my dad that I'm worthy, or. Um, you know, some version of that and, well, let's, yeah, let's talk specifically about, so your question is like, okay, great. I'm aware of it, but if I wanted to shift out of that, like how would I actually do that? And what might I do instead?

Yeah. And, and like maybe the first, the failure patterns of like, well, I see it, but I'm not willing to let it go.

Yeah.

Um, which I assume you see often and, and as a coach, you don't push people Like, I know that, I think I know this, that coaching, you're not supposed to like, hey, you should work on this. You just, if they don't want to do it, you're like, cool. Like, you don't want to work. You don't want to change that. Then that's fine with me.

Yeah. The, um, sometimes the way I think about my job is to give you more choice, you know, more awareness, which then gives you more choice. So at least if you're aware that you're motivating yourself from this place of you know, lack, frustration, fear. If you weren't aware of that before, okay, well, that's useful to recognize it. And then in that, in being aware of it now, you at least have choice about whether you want to keep doing that. So let me share, I'm writing a book. So I've spent some time like really trying to distill this specific distinction. So let me start with that. And then we'll kind of unpack it. The way I'm referring to it is as the focus motivation framework. Because it really, what I've gotten clear on is what you focus on determines how you motivate yourself and then how you motivate yourself determines how you motivate your team. So at the simplest level, you could think about like, there's sort of 3 main types of motivation. Frustration, fear, or flow. So frustration, uh, well, let's start with flow. Cause that's sort of like, it's, it's the, it's maybe like the antidote or it's like what's on the other side of this bridge. Right. Cause there is a bridge between the way you've been motivating yourself your whole life and some new way of motivating yourself. And that bridge is a can feel like a rickety, like, rope bridge, because it's really uncomfortable and, like, new and different and scary. And I'm not totally sure I'll make it across to the other side. Like, it's definitely not just an easy, like, oh, I'll just, you know, I'll just skip along from my old way of motivating to some new way. Because our, you know, in general, our systems don't like change, right? We like what's familiar and what we know. And so, um, shift, you know, especially something as deep as like this core source of fuel and motivation that has in some way worked and gotten us to the point where we're at, like, it's pretty scary to shift to some new way. So I just want to acknowledge that.

And one quick thing before you go on, I want to point out, like, I learned this obviously through our work together, but like, not only is it hard because of, of whatever grooves you have built in, but like the stuff is very recursive and fractal, like If you generally like motivate yourself with like, oh, for me, for example, it's like, I want to go work at McKinsey. I want to go work at Goldman. Like I did that in big ways, but I, but I do it in really small ways too. Like, hey, I need to like get this thing done in the next hour or, or it won't be good enough. Like it's so subtle and so in your brain that it's so pervasive that it's really, really hard. To imagine yourself or imagine being that way without that. And so the, like, the shifting of the source from dirty to clean fuel, like you're saying, it's, it's a really, uh, it's, it's hard.

It's challenging. Yeah. Because it's such a deeply ingrained pattern. It's also pervasive in our culture, especially like capitalism, Western world, especially in the founder entrepreneur ecosystem, right? There's so much glorification of the, this drive from lack. And yeah, like you said, chips on the shoulder, chips in your pocket. Like it's, it's pretty counterculture, um, to say, oh, you know, you can build a multi-billion dollar business from heart, from a place of joy and inspiration and not a sense of lack. Um, because I think one, well, again, it's very, like you said, self-referential because so much of the culture does build from lack. There's a lot of examples of companies that have been successful, right?

Right. Right.

Because it does, dirty fuel works. It's fuel. It's just dirty, right? In the sense of it's toxic. It leaves this toxic residue. I mean, I've clients have been in the ER, you know, for heart issues and panic attacks and like this is not so uncommon in the startup.

Well, the success pattern is, is the, the thing we talked about last week, which was Brian Chesky, and it's like, I, I IPO'd and I made $10 billion, I'm still empty, right? That's the win. That's the upside of, of that way of building. But, but I think, and then the other thing I, I would just give voice to for my, in my own experience, we, and you, we've been through this, like shifting sources of fuel. There's like a big neutral period.

Yeah.

And that's, and that was really scary and confusing for me.

That's the scariest part, I think. And What I'm finding is so many, like, transformational experiences are like that. There's like this, like, I think you said, like this precipice that it's scary to go beyond, to jump off of, to take the leap. Um, generally most people find if they do that leap and that courage is rewarded because they get to some new level of some new way of being, some new way of operating that is better, but the, but Yeah, let's acknowledge how scary that is and how like disorienting it can be. Um, cause yeah, I mean, essentially the question is, well, I want to come back to the framework, but the question when I ask clients something like, you know, could you let go of your sense of lack? Could you let go of, um, wishing you were different, wishing things were different? That's one of my favorite questions. Could you let go of wishing anything about your experience was different than it is? Or just, could you accept yourself just as you are? Could you accept your startup just as it is? There's a lot of resistance, you know, and the thing that— so clients like feel fear. And then the thing that the mind says, some version of, am I just going to become like lazy couch potato? Like, am I going to lose my edge? Am I going to lose my fire? And so it's super scary.

And Well, I don't think it's a question for Mo. For me, it wasn't a question. I was like, this is what will happen, Dave.

I am going to lose my—

right.

That's what your mind was like.

I've been, I mean, I'm going to push myself because if I don't push myself, I'm just a lazy, like, I'm going to, I'm going to eat lots of chocolate cake and brownies and cookies. I'm going to watch a bunch of garbage television. I'm going to gamble.

I'm going to, um, do nothing productive.

Just nothing productive. I'm going to be a waste of space.

Like, yeah.

And it's kind of crazy that most motivated founders. Yeah. Most motivated founders. That's actually how they, I feel, at least for me, and a lot of people I know, that if they don't, if they don't push themselves, that's actually what they are, which is kind of a crazy thing.

I think you're revealing almost like a deeper human level pervasive assumption that I'm bad, worthless.

Yeah.

And basically I need to whip myself or manage myself or shame myself or scare myself to act good. Like, I think if we're— yeah, it's— and as I say it, I can feel, um, the truth in it.

Yeah.

The truth of that belief. I don't believe it's true, but, but how I feel some sadness around how pervasive that belief is.

Yeah.

Um, So let's just, yeah, just presence that, like this pervasive belief that I'm fundamentally bad or wrong in some way, and I have to drive and push myself to be good. And if I just follow my authentic impulses, um, things won't work out or I'll be a waste of life or worse. And That may be the belief, the limiting belief or fear that's like even behind all of this.

Right.

Um, and it's not true. It's just not true. Like from my experience, at least most people are, um, inherently good, uh, like are loving, want their good and other people's good. And if you truly can, um, I'd say not let go of the fear, but, um, let go of the sense of lack. Like when you feel a sense of wholeness and like nothing's missing, nothing's wrong. Um, what doesn't seem to happen for most people is they just become lazy couch potatoes and sit there and do nothing. What happens is authentic impulses arrive. We are creative beings. Authentic creative impulses arise. It's sort of like, well, you know, what are you going to do with this one wild and precious life? Like we're here. It's like, ah, I want to go create this thing. Not because there's something wrong and missing and bad. And if I don't create it, I'm bad and I'm not worthy. And my life's not worthy just because I want to, because I, because I'm a creative being and this is like an expression of my creativity. Yeah.

And, and I think you'll, you'll remember that like when I went through this, we did it, we ran the experiment and like, it took me 6 days maybe, or 8 days where I was, I, you know, I had some fun and I was being, being a waste of time, but then I like, I had ideas and I caught up with people and I was like, oh, this is cool. And, and you asked me, you were like, did you really think that you were, you like didn't have that? And I was like, I guess I did. Yeah. I really did think that I didn't, that, that, that was, that wouldn't, that I wasn't a creative. I didn't have that creative energy, uh, in me. And what's funny, when I talk to people about this, you would almost immediately see the flash of, uh, of a spiritual, like, people's eyes go, because it's, it's what creator energy is, God energy. I mean, it's, you know, that's what the energy is. It's the energy of creation, right? And we all have it inside. We exist, we exist. And then that energy exists inside of us to create things. And all of a sudden people, but you can almost see people flip because they go, you're right. We do all have creator energy in us. And like, and you're like, yeah. And that is, if you were left to your devices, that is typically what shows up and it's, and it's authentic creator and it's the energy that truly is what you want to create. Yeah.

Um, and it tends to be pro-social. Like I just, from my experience. You know, there's psychopaths and sociopaths, but like, you know, putting that aside, most people hopefully listening, um, it feels good. We seem to be designed in such a way that it feels good to serve other people. Like most people, we really ask them like, when did you feel most fulfilled, most alive? Like, when did you have the most sense of meaning? It was like when you made a difference in someone's life or many people's lives. Right. And, um, you know, I don't want to put judgment around like what type of, you know, like there's people love to make money for people or make, you know, there's lots of ways to create value. I mean, this is—

how many people did this serve?

Yeah. And we can argue about positive impact, but like if you're coming from a place of I want to serve, I want to have a positive impact. Well, I don't even want to say it that way. If you're not coming from a place of something's wrong and something's missing, it seems to be what naturally draws us is, oh, I want to make a positive difference in the world in some way, in people's lives in some way. Like that, just like there's creativity for its own sake. And then there's like service, like the compassion, those seem to be naturally occurring phenomena in humans. And so if you can get all the noise out of the way, you can allow that like essential you know, self to come through. And that seems to be what, what comes. And, um, yeah, let's, let's quickly go through the model just because practically speaking, well, we're kind of touching on it, but, um, yeah, practically speaking, let's talk about flow for a second because I think it's sort of the answer. It's like the antidote to, you know, it's like what's on the other side of the chasm, right? Of the leap. Is to operate in flow. And most people have had the experience in some moments of operating in a state of flow, right? Where it's like time and space fall away. Um, if you really look, your sense of self is usually absent. That's probably the biggest thing if you really reflect and people notice. Um, so what most people don't stop to look at is like, what really creates that? And how do you Um, how do you create that and how might you inadvertently shift from kind of this flow motivation to frustration or fear? So let's just kind of unpack that. So what I have noticed is what creates a sense of flow and like flow motivation is when you have two things present at the same time. One is you're present to like reality as it is, like your present situation. But without any resistance. And we've talked about this a lot, right? Above the line. Like it just is what it is. And that, like that fork in the road is huge. When I say fork in the road, I mean, there's some situation and then you're, you either interpret it as a problem. This is bad and wrong, you know, and create resistance or just, okay, it is what it is. So, you know, I like to joke, like you can't get there until you're here. Or I think, I think I say more precisely, you can't get from here to there, you know, unless you're here. So that's like presence. And then there's your desired future. So if you're present to like the current situation and your desired future at the same time, that tends to generate flow. It's like the creative flow. It's like, okay, I'm here now and I imagine a year from now, you know, I'm gonna like have, you know, triple my team and grow revenue and we're gonna be serving this many people. And, you know, again, it has to be an actual desired future. So it's sort of like no duh, but like you have to actually desire it, right? It has to be something you really want. Like ideally it's meaningful and, you know, inspiring.

And, and I think like, I, I, I tell a lot of founders from your coaching and Rick's coaching, like, it's gotta be something you want. And then that, that actually spills over into the strategy or the business, not the other way around. Because I think most founders start with like, what's a great business? Okay. Yeah. This is what I'll do to get that. And, and then they don't create it 'cause they don't actually want it. They, when they go like, you want, and then what's the business have to be for you to have what you want? And Yeah. Yeah.

Like in some way you're just, you know, it's maybe why we call it the heart of entrepreneurship. You're describing the shift from like operating from your head to operating from your heart.

Right.

Right. And, um, I love, someone said recently, like, I love the phrase, like, have the courage to follow your heart. I think that's like a beautiful way to think about it. It's like the heart wants what the heart wants. Like you could try to rationalize, well, this is a good business opportunity and I should do it, but like the heart wants what the heart wants. So if your heart's not in it, it's gonna be a really different experience. So in a, in a way, that's probably why we use the word desire. That's that it, it kind of connotes like your heart's desire. Like, I really want this, not 'cause it's the right thing, it's just 'cause you authentically want it. And then if you use this with your team, obviously your team has to want the future as well. And this is where like the tool of visualization I think is really powerful. 'Cause when I say desired future, I don't mean like you write on the, on the, you know, whiteboard, like our mission is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's just kind of like words. It's, um, if you can literally visualize, right? Like, we have this amazing ability to imagine things that don't exist. If you can imagine with your mind's eye, like you're watching a movie, the future that you desire while you're present to what is, that generates that like creative flow, that tension that pulls you and it feels, that's the difference. Like most of like frustration and fear, we'll talk about those in a minute. It's, that's like a push. It's like a drive away from lack or away, you know, to avoid fear. This feels more like a pull from the future. It's like, it's like, it feels more like you're called to it or, uh, yeah, you're being pulled.

I've been doing this exercise with a lot of the CEOs I work with, and I think there's like the goal version of DFS or like you're describing what the future looks like. But I don't know if you remember, this was a big thing you coached me on. It got me unstuck before I started GatewayX, which was, this is, and has worked really well for people listening, like, what do you want your week to look like?

Mm-hmm.

Because it's really easy to describe like, well, I want this much in revenue and I want this many employees and I want us to be doing this. And, and, and the other, the double down on is what's, what's your Monday? What's your Tuesday? What do those look like and how do they feel?

Yeah.

Because, because when you actually say a feeling like, I want to feel energized or I want to feel calm in my Monday mornings. I, what I found at least when I say that, and then I don't feel that way, it's like a natural alert system I create for myself in the future, which is it just keeps me more honest around making sure I'm doing what I want. And, and so that anyway, that's worked really well for me.

No, I love, I think the point you're making is really important because people have a tendency. If you think about the realms of like be, do, have, like being, doing, and having, people have a tendency to visualize the have. Have this much revenue, have this. And you're pointing to there's the doing, like, okay, yeah, but what's it like to be in the office every day? You know, what's the 10 out of 10? What does winning look like? You know, you're high-fiving your team, people are smiling, you know, people are excited. And who are you being and how are you being? Oh yeah, I feel energized and alive and clear and, you know, confident and excited. Right. And those are as if not more important, like a lot of, there's some school of thought that like the being is the most important. Like just imagine who you're being a year from now. Um, so I think that's a really important when you visualize and I'll ask, you know, when I, um, guide this, you know, we'll start with, okay, can you get present? Like really face what is right now. And could you let go of wishing it was different so you can fully like allow and get fully present. And then from here, because a lot of people try to create from lack, it's like, oh, I feel the sense of lack. So I visualize having the thing that I lack. That's not the energy that creates the kind of flow we're talking about, right? That creates more lack. So that's why it's really important to first be like, there's nothing wrong. There's nothing bad. There's nothing missing. And from this place of like neutral, from this place of presence, what do I really want? And then as you visualize it, and I like what you said, a week in the life, I'll have, I'll say things like, um, if we were looking at you from the outside, what would we notice? What's your posture like? What's the expression on your face? So you can really get a picture of it. And then I'll often say, now let's step into the body, step into the body of future Jesse, you know, who's there having that experience. Breathe through his lungs, see through his eyes. What does it feel like? Right? What do you notice is different in your mind and your, and your thought patterns? What's different in your body? And so you can really fully like 3D immersive experience of it. And you'll know you're doing it effectively if you feel inspiration in your body. Essentially, if you feel like this is a, it's a, it's a body test. If you feel the way you think you'll feel then now, well, great. Cause you're already putting yourself into the being that can create that future.

Right.

And that's kind of the trick.

Well, the woo woo people say like raising your vibration.

Yeah. That's like the, what's it called? The law of attraction is like. Raise your vibration to the being that has that future already, and that being can create it. And I think there's something to that, because when you feel— for sure, without even the woo— when you feel more energized and alive and excited, you're more magnetic. Well, literally, you have more energy to do more stuff and create more and achieve more.

So how does this play into like love and motivation or zone of genius, um, this framework?

Well, I think it's, it's like the desire is very close to the love.

It's like, it's like, um, who are you serving or what?

Yeah. If you are in a state of love, what occurs to you as like what you most want is generally, you know, from love. I mean, that's sort of self, self, you know, tautological, but, um, if you're not in a, like, let me say it by the opposite. If you're in a state of lack, um, and like, um, lack and fear, you might visualize something that is just a strategy to solve your lack and fear. When you're in a state of love and wholeness, the thing you visualize will just be more of authentic creative expression and likely, you know, more of service, but at the least like more, just more authentic. So I think there's like a strong connection between love and authenticity. Um, because I think we are authentically love, um, and loving. Um, so does that make sense? So let's talk about these two big drifts because this is, I think, what happened. Even, even if you're like, okay, um, I'll, I'm in, I'm, I'm, I'm ready to be courageous. I'm gonna start motivating myself and my team from the sense of flow. Like, you know, I'm gonna get present and I'm gonna imagine desired future state. What often happens is you do that and it's really powerful. Like you do it internally, like you imagine it, you start to feel that, and then maybe you, you take it out to your team and you have a, you know, an all hands. You're like, okay guys, here's where we are today. You know, like really face the facts, but without judgment, without blame. And then here's where I see us in a year and like team gets excited. But what I see is there's these two really major drift patterns that then, you know, we end up kind of back in frustration and fear. So the first one is we drift into frustration by essentially like collapsing the desired future state into the present. And what I mean by that is instead of like, oh, I'm so excited to, you know, double revenue in the next year. We're like, ah, darn it. I wish we'd already doubled revenue. Right. I wish we, I wish we had $10 million in revenue when we have $5 million, right? Like I wish we already had it. So now you're just frustrating yourself by focusing on the gap between the present situation and the desired future. And like, because you're wishing it was already so instead of inspiring yourself by imagining the desired future in the future where it's possible. So that's one of the big drifts I see. And if you really are honest with yourself and self-reflect, that's probably the most common one I see. Founders are constantly like, oh God, I wish I already had an awesome head of engineering. I wish I already had, like, it's just like wishing reality was different instead of, oh, I can't wait to hire this awesome engineer, head of engineering.

And it's often driven because you like look on Twitter or you see someone raise a mega round or somebody else announced, Lovable said they got to $200 million in revenue and oh yeah, comparison is the thief of joy.

Um, and yeah, it's so easy to, or it could be your own mind just makes up some other version of reality or your, your previous self imagined you'd be at a certain place now. And you're not there. And so you're in again, and like in that, you know, let's say your, your goal was $10 million and you hit $5 million, but once you've hit $5 million, like you are where you are. So that like focusing all the energy on, I wish we'd hit the $10 million instead of, okay, well, I want to hit $10 million in 6 months where that's possible. You're wasting your energy on the gap instead of channeling your energy to create the future you want. Um, and then the other one is just You, again, I call it the focus motivation framework. And the question of what are you focused on, right? Are you focused on wishing you were already in the future? The other one is you focus on your undesired future. And this is a huge drift that I see, you know, tons of clients fall into where they start out all excited and inspired, but that maybe there's a setback or maybe their mind, you know, human mind just being this like safety mechanism that's trying scanning the world for what could go wrong. It just automatically drifts into imagining the thing you don't want to have happen instead of the thing you do. And now you're scaring yourself. And then, you know, you spill it over into your team. Like, oh guys, if we don't hit these goals, we're not going to be able to raise our next round of funding and we're going to fail. Which, like, what's funny about it is it's the literal converse. Like, you're kind of saying the same thing in a disempowering, scary way instead of an exciting way. Because you could as equally say, If we do hit the goals, I think we are gonna raise the next round and then we're gonna be able to achieve our, you know, our dreams.

But let's, let me, I'm gonna play Andrew Warner for a second and I wanna challenge some of this, which is we earlier we said Dirty Fuel works.

Yes.

So like your framework is great, Mr. Kashen, I love it. But like, but you told me already, 'cause, 'cause I'm the founder now, you showed me how I use Spear.

Yeah, I use it.

You're right. Guilty, but I don't want to give it up because it's, it, you told me it also that it works. And what I want now is to use my fear and use it on other people. And I'm going to go make lots of money. Why should I let that go?

Yeah. So as you said earlier, I'm not saying you should let it go. Um, I want, I want you to be as clear as possible what you're choosing and, um, choose it consciously rather than unconsciously. So what I can say, well, I have a preference.

So can I ask you a question though? So you, I, I made it, making this up a little bit, but I think it's true where like you have a lot of clients churn because they get to that point in the journey and they're sort of like, cool, this wasn't helpful. I've noticed some patterns in myself, but now I'm off to the back to the races. Like, And you helped me with some stuff, but it hasn't, I don't want to go that deep basically is what is the message you get back. Yeah.

I mean, I mean, to be honest, more commonly it's clients don't hire me, then clients turn. Usually once they hire me, they're, they're committed and, and, right.

So they don't hire you, but I'm curious what, what sort of things do you hear come outta their mouths? Yeah. Like what, what are the, like if, if I'm listening, if I'm a listener to this podcast and I, yeah, what kind of, I'll tell you what they say and what I think they're thinking.

One is like, oh, that's naive. Pollyanna bullshit, right? Like, yeah, that sounds all nice, but like, you can't, you know, business, you gotta be ruthless. You know, this is a dog-eat-dog world. We're in capitalism. Like, we, you know, like we, we have to, you know, grind. Yeah. Basically success requires suffering. I like, there's an unwillingness to let go of that belief. And so it's threatened if you believe that and I come along and say, hey, we can alleviate your suffering. It's threatening to your success. So it's basically this, like, I think that's probably the most common belief is that it's just bullshit and it won't work and I won't be successful. And I'm not, I, at this point in my journey, the success is what's most important to me. Like I'm not interested in being content or fulfilled if that means I'm not going to be successful. Which is a little funny because if you really ask yourself, okay, why do you want to be successful?

Right?

Like, well, okay, if you're wildly successful, what will having that do for you? Like if they're honest and you ask a few times, usually they'll get to some version of I want to be fulfilled and, you know, basically feel good, you know, feel content.

But a lot of people do view it as a serial process. In other words, the process where you're like, let me first make my money, then I'll get the money, then I can, then I'll have time and energy. And I think that's, I don't know. Well, I'm actually curious. We've never, you and I have never really talked about this. Like, is it, I don't know, is that just the way humans are wired? Like, is that—

Well, I think, um, you know, it's hard to generalize. I, I think I have a few thoughts.

It reminds me a little bit of Joe Hudson's thing that you were saying where he's like, well, you just gotta lean into wherever, whatever you're looking to do. And you know, there's a line in Sikhism in Gurbani that says ego is the disease, but in it is also the cure.

Right. Yeah. That was the same idea. That was one there. Yeah. I like, there's something that Joe Hudson said I wanna come back to in a second. Um, the. Someone wrote a post that was basically like, hey, all you coaches who are telling founders to not tie their identity to their startup, like, here's an argument why you should. And the argument basically was if, if, you know, you, you totally go all in on your ego and you tie your identity to your startup, one of two things will happen. One is your startup will fail. And you will learn that you didn't die and, and actually that people still love you and you still, you feel okay. So this ego-driven, like, idea that I, my worth is a function of being successful might burn up in the fire of your startup failure, which is so from a spiritual journey.

Great.

That's just as good. Or you'll be successful, like the Brian Chesky, you know, example conversation we had. You'll be successful and then you'll discover that achieving that outward success, that external condition that your mind thought, I'll be happy when that happens, doesn't actually create sustained long-term happiness, peace, you know, freedom. And then, like you're saying, and then many people will have a, like a wake-up moment of like, oh shit, maybe there's some other path I need to go down if what I really want is to feel peace and joy and contentment and freedom. And then they start, you know, getting more spiritual or introspective and move from like self-improvement to self-discovery, right? Who am I really? And how is the self-concept that I thought I was actually the source of all of this suffering, because it's just, you know, if I think I'm my thoughts and my thoughts are this survival mechanism, that's hugely negative. I'm going to have this, I'm going to just constantly create suffering in this sense of void and lack and something missing. So in some way, all roads lead to Rome. So that's why, like, we don't necessarily need to be attached to one path. I had one other thought around that, which is, oh, by the way, the other thing that can happen is if you don't have that wake-up call, you have the exit, you don't feel the fulfillment and joy and peace that you thought. And so at that point, your mind says, I guess this wasn't enough. And it doubles down. The ego doubles down. Like, okay, $10 million. I thought once I hit $10 million, I'd feel free and peace. No, I'm maybe I, you know, okay, that's not fuck you money. $100 million is fuck you. Okay. I need $100 million, right? Like, so that's the other way, right? That's the hedonic treadmill that people talk about, or I need $20 million and then you hit $20 million. It's like, ah, now I need, I'm just talking about money, but there's status, all the different ways. I thought if I was running a public company, then if I hit my Series B, then my Series C, whatever it is, right? It's all that same. Um, you know, how much do you need to feel okay? More, right? Like that's the, that's the pattern. So I think those are the different paths and, you know, whether, you know, whether it happens in this lifetime or not, you know, may depend on, you know, person's journey and what their, what their, I guess, goals and intentions are. Um, uh, one of the things that you mentioned Joe Hudson, so I want to name one thing that he says that I, I think is true and I'm really intrigued by is that, um, like he has this distinction of like, uh, enjoy versus manage. And basically like you, most people again from lack, like try to manage and almost like force things to happen. Um, and that, that management, which is kind of what we're talking about, like coming from lack, grinding, eating glass, all of that, like forcing yourself to do things that you don't really want to do, forcing other people, like listening to the bully voice in your head, you know, and just constantly like driving yourself to improve. All of that, um, actually, um, gets in the way of the natural growth that wants to happen. That is actually a less efficient way to grow yourself and your company. And that, um, when you and your company Follow enjoyment, which is another way of saying flow, right? Like desired future, like just follow what you authentically want, what feels good, what feels right, what feels alive, right? Follow your energy. That's a much more efficient path to growth. And, you know, like, I don't know if I said this before, like the oak tree is not like Oh, what's the matter with me? I should be taller and I should reach out my branches more to get more, you know, it just grows like nature grows and we are part of nature. Humans grow like good luck, you know, try not to grow.

Right.

And I think, I think Joe said in one of his podcasts that he, he challenged a client for like a week or two, like no improvement. You can, like, you can make no improvement for the next 2 weeks. And the client came back and reported a ton of ways that they grow, grew and noticed things and. It's like, I think that's the myth is that like, like, I don't think we cannot grow, right? Try to not grow, right? Like your cells are constantly replenishing, you're aging. Like, so I think the forcing that comes from this place of lack and fear actually can make the growth process less efficient and your growth as a founder determines the company's growth. So that's the— it's a little coming back around to what I think you're getting at is like, why should I even consider, you know, giving up my current form of motivation that has sort of worked and gotten me here? Yeah. Um, so one hypothesis at least to experiment with is it's actually getting in the way and making you less efficient. And I've talked to lots of founders who, you know, um, uh, ex post facto sort of realized this, like even to the point of like, I didn't want to fail. So I kept doing this thing for 6 years. And if I had just let it go, I, I, like, I was so excited about, say, AI, and I would have probably started an AI company and been wildly successful instead of this kind of mediocre outcome that I achieved because I just didn't, I like, I didn't want to fail and I didn't want to look bad. And, you know, essentially I was operating from ego. Instead of following my authentic want.

So yeah, it's what's coming up for me. Uh, you know, it's interesting. I always tell people the first year or two that you and I worked together, you didn't, I don't remember at least you telling me a lot of things. I remember you helping me develop awareness, a lot of awareness of my body, of my thought patterns and where I'm coming, where my head is going with, or kind of, I don't know, as we land this, this, this conversation is like, It sounds like the answer is you can't really— A, you, you know, you can't really force someone to let go of their fear if they don't want to or they're not ready. But B, even if you could, that may not be the best thing for them unless they're— they want that, unless they're choosing that. And instead, the only thing you can do to support anybody is really help them keep growing their awareness. Or even as a person listening, rather than trying to force yourself to let go of the fear. Yeah, just try to grow your awareness. And the more you're aware of it— because for me, again, this is all like me looking back on our, our work together— is like, the more aware I became of it, then I was kind of like, well, hold on, is there another way to do this? And like, it was— you weren't, you weren't pulling it out of me, I was kind of pulling it out of you, if that makes sense, as a coach. And I was like, oh, well, that's interesting. Now I noticed this thing about myself, and like, I don't like that, or I, I think it could be different, or that's not the real me, or So it's just like the more, the more the light shows up and maybe that's like why psychedelic medicines and stuff like that work. Cause the light gets so bright for a second that everything else looks, you start to see the things when the light gets so bright. Right. And you're like, oh, that's interesting. I don't want to do that anymore. I'm going to drop that. Um, but there's something about awareness here coming up for me, which is just like the more you grow in awareness, the more the natural path will basically unfold for you, whatever that path might be. And it might be to stay. Very fear-driven for a period. I don't know. Or it might be to let that all go or, you know, somewhere in between.

Yeah. I love, I love what you're pointing to be. Well, one, it's very meta, right? Because we're, you're sort of saying, um, don't force, like flow instead of force, right? Like don't force yourself. To stop forcing yourself, right? But yeah, that, um, you're, you're citing something that is very true from my experience that simply the awareness, and it's not a one-time, like, oh, I had the insight. Now I'm aware of it. It's the moment to moment awareness of, oh, I'm, I'm doing that thing where I'm wishing the present was already different. I'm wishing the future, my desired future. Was my present situation. Ah, and in that awareness, you might naturally choose to stop doing that because you see, oh, this is causing me, uh, you know, an experience that I don't want to be having. Um, or, oh, I'm, wow, I'm really focusing on, um, like failing and like, I'm, wow, my Oh, my attention keeps going to like imagining my company failing. Yeah, that, that doesn't feel very helpful. You know, that doesn't, um, so what you're pointing to is awareness is at the least the like precursor, but maybe sufficient unto itself that like just being aware, um, of things that you previously were not aware of. Is enough to, if your system wants to shift, it will start to shift. And I think that's—

well, and interestingly, the fractal point I made earlier of how this stuff happens in a micro, and I've done a lot of this as of you, you don't actually change anything broad about yourself. It's not like you say, I'm letting go of fear motivation and I'm embracing love motivation. You say in this moment, you're like, ooh, I feel afraid right now. I don't want that to dictate my decision. I want to think about purpose for a second, and then you shift in a small, small, and then you shift all these little moments and moments and moments, and then it turns out, oh, in broad strokes, you, to other people and yourself, you feel like a different person. And so it's interesting also because, to back to this point with awareness, you're, the shifting doesn't happen in broad strokes. It doesn't, pragmatically, it doesn't happen in broad strokes. It happens in every conversation you have, in every decision you make, in every reaction you have to some news, good or bad. Um, so that's another kind of perspective.

Yeah. And in a way you end up, you end up like, um, rewiring your system, right? Like it's like, it's like moving a river, right? If, if the river has been flowing a certain way for a long time, you know, um, and maybe, you know, you, there are experiences, psychedelics, retreats, you know, immersive experiences that can be a little bit more like like maybe dynamite in that metaphor that just like blows a whole different, you know, creates neuroplasticity really so that you can suddenly, um, have like, you know, flow the, have the river flow a different way. And I've, I've experienced that and seen that occur. And if you don't do that, or even if you do do that, continuing the moment to moment, um, you know, habit building of showing your system a new way. Accumulates over time. Right. And that there's like a compounding effect to it that like each time I notice, oh yeah, I'm motivating myself from the sense of lack. And then I shift to, okay, there's no lack. Everything's okay. I'm excited to create this future. The more and more you do that.

Yeah.

Like any habit, the more, the easier, the more that groove deepens and then the river starts flowing in that direction instead. So yeah, I like where you're pointing to that. It's a, it's like a moment to moment practice that then compounds, um, and suddenly you find yourself, uh, being a, you know, in many ways a different, you know, operating differently than you used to. Um, and the, yeah, I like, I think it's an important point because a lot of people hear this stuff and then they're like, okay, I gotta totally shift this. And then if they don't, then they get all mad because it's like, ah, now I know it. Um, I do, I do like the flow framework just because it gives you a light at the end of the tunnel. Like, I think it is useful to have like somewhere to head toward that. Like, to me, it feels important that it's not just for those who really are, love entrepreneurship and want to create businesses. Again, not that you're, not if you're doing that to prove something, that's a different conversation. But if you truly love that, that it's not, there is something in addition to just getting present, um, that you can do that will still create a tremendous amount of energy and motivation, um, so that you can galvanize a team and, and create something, you know, really wildly successful and, and have a massive impact.

Um, and so it makes me think actually that when that issue comes up for people, and I'm sure it does for you all the time, and even I've, I've run into it with people. Maybe the right question is just sort of like, sure, you don't have to give up your fear whole hog. You wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to, but is there a place where it's not serving you? Like, is there, is there a place where you don't think, where you'd rather be in flow or you'd rather, uh, you showing up differently? Let's work on that specific area. Yeah.

And I want to be careful. There's this tendency to, to badmouth fear and it's like, oh, we're like, it's your, I know you alluded to this. Even, even fear motivation is shorthand. What we really mean, well, there's two things I think just to distinguish. One is fear is natural, right? We're wired, you know, as part of our system, it keeps us safe. Um, but sometimes we manufacture a bunch of extra fear by visualizing things we don't want to have happen. So, so that's one thing just to that I think I want to kind of distinguish like organic fear that's just arising and like manufactured fear that you're creating by visualizing things you don't want. And then two, even fear motivation, what we really mean is you don't want to feel that fear. And so you do a bunch of things to avoid feeling the fear. So welcoming fear is important. Learning to be with fear is actually part of getting present, like, okay, Right now it's like this, I feel fear and oh, I imagine a future where blah, blah, blah. Um, so I just want to make that point, but you were making a different point, I think, which is, say your point again.

I think, I think the, again, if you, if you go to someone and we could say dirty fuel instead of fear is like, hey, give up all that dirty fuel, get to clean fuel. And everyone's like, no, I need my dirty fuel. That's what's going to make me a billionaire. It's almost like my question would be like, oh, is there any place where you feel like that way is not serving you, or where you'd rather be in flow than in that suffering place? And then, because it's, again, it's something again that happens moment by moment.

Yeah.

And maybe that's the place to pick up on. Again, if you're listening, it's like, oh hey, is there an area? Sure, you may want, you may not be ready to let go of that, and you like want to have the chip on your shoulder, fine. But are there parts of your life where, where you think it could be worth trying something?

And it doesn't have to be black and white either, like again, fear is valuable. Like if there's something that's dangerous, uh, fear like brings our attention to it. So it's not that you, um, you want to have no fear and never let fear sort of dick guide you because there's time, you know, if I'm standing at the edge of a cliff, you know, I might feel fear and it's like, pay attention. And I'll maybe step somewhere different and that keeps me safe. Like that's all. The issue is that our system is, um, is, is so over-indexed toward fear. Like we manufacture like 10 times, maybe 100 times more fear than our reality actually calls for.

It's like inauthentic fear.

It's like inauthentic. Yeah.

It's like synthetic fear.

Scaring yourself by making stuff up that isn't actually here now. Like, are you scared of something that's actually happening? Or are you just making up a bunch of things that might happen? So that's one point is like, can we just get closer to reality? Like that's, I think maybe a motivating thing for people is there's no, you're just not even living in reality. You're living in this like dystopian version of reality. That's not actually here. So can we just at least get to neutral and like face the things that are actually happening that might be scary? Not invent lots and lots of things that, um, you know, uh, to scare yourself. And then I just think it, if you actually believed that you could be as successful or more from a place of joy and excitement instead of like anxiety and lack, I think most people would make that choice. Not everybody. There's, You know, we have some masochism in our, in our, you know, system, like some people like maybe like to suffer. Um, but if you didn't believe that, like it was, you have to earn it or it's worth more if you suffer. Um, I think most people would choose that. So that's like, I just, I just want to stand for that, that possibility because I believe it's true. I've experienced it as true. So I want to challenge people to have the courage to experiment. And see for yourself because it's like, hey, the water's really nice over here. Like, come on in.

Yeah. All right. Well, let's end there.

All right.

What's— say the thing about success again. Um, challenging the belief that success requires suffering.

Yeah. Challenging the belief that success requires suffering and maybe standing for a world of success without suffering.

I love it. All right. See you next time.

Bye.