Why Spirituality Is a Founder's Edge, Not a Distraction

Hello and welcome to Heart of Entrepreneurship, the podcast where we believe that success does not require suffering. I'm here with my co-host and longtime coach, Dave Kashen. What's up, Dave?

Good morning.

Um, we— so we've been having this conversation, I think, the last two episodes about intelligence, right? I don't remember, but we definitely talked last week about head, heart, and gut, and kind of how when they come into alignment, you make better decisions. And I've experienced that in my career, and obviously you coach a bunch of folks who've done it. Today's episode, uh, is going to be maybe, I don't know, a little different. But I think, I think there was this other form of intelligence that we briefly touched on last time around, like, spirit, or like to say universe. Um, there's a term for it in Sikhism, which is Hukam. Maybe the first—

God, divine.

God, divine. Yeah. All kinds of words that there's some—

Yeah.

There's some broader intelligence shaping and guiding the cosmos and the cosmic order of things. And so before we get too woo, and you and I like to get woo, but this is a show for founders, I guess. Well, I guess maybe what's your definition of this intelligence? And I'm curious how we think about founders leveraging this. Why is this episode going to be valuable for them?

Yeah, it's interesting.

What—

it's funny that you're bringing this up. I mean, what was coming to mind um, just as I was thinking about our podcast today, was I've had a few, uh, potential clients— actually one recently, and but there's like very similar to others— who seem to be wrestling with this question, like, I want to explore spirituality, even potentially, you know, seek enlightenment, and I'm scared that either that's like totally tangential or even worse, um, will undermine my drive and ability to build a, you know, scaling successful business. So I think there's maybe like inherent to this topic of sort of business and spirituality, it's like, how do they mix? Uh, maybe dispelling some of the myths about, um, how they don't mix, frankly. Um, and, you know, I actually think it might be useful to draw out some of your experience because a lot of people are skeptical because they see it, you know, most human beings are not, um, living in an awakened state, right? Right. Or, uh, you know, connected with their true nature. So, you know, some subset of those human beings have built wildly successful businesses.

Yeah.

So it's more likely that the models we've seen and the examples we've seen are, um, you know, sort of non-spiritual, uh, you know, human beings who've built wildly successful businesses from these places of lack and fear. Um, and so I just want to name the, the skepticism, the very common skepticism that either exploring spirituality means I need to go live in a cave somewhere or become aesthetic. What's the word? Aesthetic. Basically, like, give up worldly pursuits and possessions. And/or if I try to do them at the same time, I'll either do both poorly or at least it'll undermine my business drive and success.

Yeah.

And I, I think it's plainly false. And I think it's important to recognize that. So, God, maybe we could turn around.

You can ask me questions.

Yeah, I think that'd be fun.

Let's do that in a second.

Later. Sure.

In 10 or 15 minutes. I want to start with something. Well, I mean, I have this— obviously is very near and dear to heart, to my heart.

Yes.

And I think to me, the starting point of it just is like, forget about the bigger, you just did the big thing. And like, to me, I want to start really small. Okay. Like we don't control things. Uh, well, founders like, like we don't control most things we control.

So we can, we can control our, um, actions we can control. Maybe that's broad enough to say action— that we control what we say and do, basically. And to, um, yeah, when aware, we can control where we focus our attention. Yep.

And I think that, like, the— maybe the first thing that— I mean, you taught this to me, or it's been a helpful framing— is like, even if you— you don't want to get super woo on any of this stuff for a minute. I think the framing of— you've asked me this question many times— and I've been having a bad day is like, if you imagine that there's a higher self or you imagine there's this other intelligence, pretend you don't have to believe it necessarily, but that intelligence is trying to teach you something or wake you up to something. What— so even just to me, the tiny little nugget of helpfulness of like the reframe of going, well, oh gosh, my biggest client, my biggest client just left. That's horrible. I must have a bad company or this must be the problem versus like in that moment, again, it's like you hear Tony Robbins say, it's like instead of to you, it's for you.

Yeah.

Like if you, if you can really even just, if we don't get into like this debate or discussion, higher intelligence, but just really reframing your mind as a starting point, as a founder to really try to find the learning or find the, how is this here for me thing. And okay.

Let's start there and then expand out.

By the way, the reason I think it connects to higher intelligence is because if once— if you look, approach it from the other direction, which is like, no, there is actually this thing doing all this stuff for me and the benefit, you know, like, yeah, then there's something higher and more intelligent than you that's, that's trying to help you do it. But even if you just frame yourself that way when, you know, in the, in the day-to-day as a founder, I think it's a more, uh, powerful way of being.

Yeah, you, you just learn faster. I mean, to be really simple about it, right? So, um, there's just— let's start with control. So there's this really simple exercise I learned from the Conscious Leadership Group called sorting the files. Um, and so you imagine two file folders. I imagine those old manila folders, but could be a computer folder too, a digital. Um, and one of them is labeled Things I can control. And the other one is labeled Things I can't control. And it's such a simple idea of just properly sorting the files, because what most people do is they spend a lot of time and energy trying to control things that they can't control, right? Maybe they don't realize they're doing it, or they're missorting the files. But for example, um, you can't control what other people think of you. You can't control the future. Control, right? Like, from this present moment, which it always is, you can control what you do and say, and you can take actions that you believe are, you know, in line with the highest probability of creating the future you want. But you can't literally control the future from the present because the future is not here. You certainly can't control the past, which lots of people try to do. Oh, I should have done this. It's really a form of trying to control the past. You can't even really control your feelings. You certainly can't control your thoughts. You know, thoughts just arise.

Um, and by the way, when you try, like, what I've noticed is when you, when you focus on the things you can't control, I always think of the Serenity Prayer in Christianity, right?

Yeah.

Of like, give me the, the wisdom to know the difference, which I think is actually pretty hard to actually know the difference.

Yeah. That's sorting the files, right?

The people get caught up on things they don't control. And I, this is the other side of the Serenity Prayer is there's things they do control which they don't, they don't spend time on or they forget. Like, this is a dumb example, maybe not, but like when I was like, I was like, had my heart set on getting into Penn in college and I would go to every info session starting my sophomore year and I became friends with like the admissions advisor. I got her email, I'd send her updates every, every— and people are like, oh my gosh, that's crazy. I'm like, that was in my— like, that was in my control.

Those are actions you could choose to do. —in line with maximizing the probability of the results you want.

And a lot of people, oh my god, am I going to get in? I'm not good enough. I don't know what's going to happen. And then you just kind of go, well, I'm going to show up to the info session, but I'm not going to introduce myself. And so I think that happens all the time. I see it as an entrepreneur with the founders we work with where there's so many more things they actually can control that they don't— like, here's another really dumb one that I push on a lot of founders. Like, did you follow up? I sent them an email. They didn't respond. I see that they read it. And one of my— this is like a totally sidebar-y random lesson, but it's relevant here— is most people don't follow up because they hate you or because they think you're stupid.

They don't follow up because they're busy. You mean, right, they don't not reply because they hate you. That's what you mean. Yeah.

A lot of people, like I coach a lot of these founders and some of the things they're like, oh, they didn't respond. They must think it's a bad idea. They must think it's I'm not good. And I'm like, they're just busy. Like, yeah. Did you one week later just send a follow-up? Say, hey, did you see this email? I'd love to chat. And like people's eyes blow up when they realize how well that works. It's like such a dumb thing, but it's a perfect example of like worrying about what you can't control, which may be what they think of you or whatever, versus the thing that you can control, which is just sending a follow-up.

Which is following up. Yeah. Um, and there's a, within that, one of the things you can control, interestingly, is the degree to which you engage with and believe the thoughts that your mind generates, right? So it's really useful to rec— you know, I, I like to say like the heart pumps blood and the mind pumps thoughts. Like, it's really useful to generate— actually, you, you for the most part cannot control the thoughts that your mind generates, but you can control whether you believe them, whether you listen to them, right? There's a— I think Rupert Spira has this metaphor of like You think of thoughts as like a train going by, and often we accidentally get on the train, but you don't have to get on the train. Like, that is something you can control. Like, let me get off the train and just notice it going by. So that's a really interesting one because I think people get that almost backwards. Like, they try to control their thoughts, which they can't control, instead of controlling whether they believe their thoughts or not, which they totally can. And I think it's a really important point you're bringing up because when I bring up this point about letting go of controlling the outcome, a lot of founders and CEOs and leaders are like, "Isn't that my job? Like, what do you mean? Like, isn't my job to like create the outcome?" And of course, your job is to— let's be precise. To do everything, you know, to take your responsibility, to do as kind of much as you reasonably can that you believe will lead to the outcome you want, but you can't ultimately control the outcome. So that's another good example where it's like a distinction between controlling what you can, which is what you do and say. So when I say let go of controlling the outcome, I don't mean go sit on the couch, close your eyes, and wish it happens, right?

You still take lots of action, but Well, and also just to draw a finer point, there's that book by Bill Walsh called The Body— the, not The Body, The Score Takes Care of Itself. Hmm. Have you heard of this book? But it's kind of like in the sports metaphor, like back to this, what's, what you can control and what you can't. Nobody can control the score of a game in football.

They can control whether they block correctly, where they throw the ball.

And so you could even look at like, we, we learned this from Red Ventures, but it was like input metrics versus output metrics. Like. You know, are we, are we throwing the ball a certain way? Are we getting a good completion percentage? Are we, how many yards? Like those kinds of things that are upstream, even those you are kind of, you, but you can control how you show up and how you play. And then this kind of the score theoretically, you know, the revenues of a business will take care of themselves if you get those right things. Right. And I think the, anyway, we're getting a little off topic here, but.

So control was the first piece. Yeah. And, um, we can relate it a little bit to— it, it is easier and easier to let go of control when you have more trust. So this is where it gets a little potentially more woo, or at least more, um, Well, at least more abstract in the sense of, um, like, I sometimes think it's useful to invoke the notion of, or ask clients, are you willing to trust life? Now, what does that mean, right? Like, so one thing it could mean, like Like religious people would say, I trust God, and they might have a notion of like there's this higher intelligence or this, you know, intelligent, omniscient, omnipresent being that's acting toward my good. There's something useful about that frame, putting aside whether it's, you know, capital T true or not. Um, when you believe that there's a— like you said, like imagine if there's a some higher and higher being, um, and it, you know, loves you and it's always acting toward your good. Well, what that invites is an orientation to see how everything is happening for you. Like you mentioned the Tony Robbins, like, life isn't happening to you, it's happening for you. You know, Conscious Leadership talks about life isn't happening to you, it's happening by you, which is a slightly different— it's really an invitation to take responsibility and see the ways that you are actually creating the circumstances and experience you're having. But what I want to point to is you don't actually have to believe anything per se to realize that life is happening. Life is happening. That's just like, of course, right? We're just experiencing something. Yeah. And so, The way most people live is the mind is constantly generating thoughts about how life should be or should have been, should be now, should have been, or should be in the future. And most of the time, those thoughts are like an image of something different, some, you know, than how life actually is. So, in some way, a simpler version of, "Are you willing to trust life?" is, "Are you willing to just stop wishing life was different than it is?" Maybe even more simply, "Are you willing to let go of resisting what is?" And I think oftentimes, these are like when you think of some friend, everyone has some friend who they live in their own world.

That's like a, you you know, sometimes used pejoratively. It's like, oh, they just live in their own world, they're making up their own stories. No matter what's happening here, yeah, they're just— they just live— whether it's the future version or they just think the world is good, really good, or really bad, they just live in their own world. And, and I think we all do that to some degree. And to your point, reality is happening. The Earth is spinning, the deals are closing or not closing, people are quitting or hiring and joining you. Like, things are— there's real stuff happening in the world.

Events are occurring. You have feelings, sometimes anger, sometimes sadness, sometimes fear, sometimes joy. Like all of these things are occurring.

And the more you're tuning into it, I think the, the, I mean, you've said this in the past, like the team that wins sees reality the most clearly. Yeah.

Team that sees reality the clearest wins. Yeah. And resisting reality removes you from being grounded in reality and seeing it clearly. Right. Attachment to some future outcome also takes you away from presence and seeing reality clearly. Yeah.

And so I guess whether or not you think it's intelligent or random as the world— yes, even no matter what you believe, being attuned to what is actually happening is a really valuable thing versus living in your head with either in the future, past, or present.

Yes, attuned to what's actually happening is step one, like just being like in truth, like what's really occurring, right? Versus no, you know, we have lots of cognitive biases and confirmation biases. And so kind of like being more in like a scientific, you know, mindset of like what's actually true, as opposed to a, um, more like a zealous mindset, which is just trying to confirm what you already believe, right? That, that in and of itself, like recognizing which state you're in and when you're like actually searching for truth um, is important. So let's just look at that for a second, because I actually— like, I'm not a huge fan of trying to believe anything. Like, I, I just— I think there's lots of myths, and, you know, there's a certain stage of human, uh, you know, evolution in which humans believed in all these myths and they were useful. But I don't think it's required. And I personally am much more of a fan of like just rigorously investigating what's true and in our direct experience. And so that's my access to, quote, spirituality, is just like, like, well, yeah, at the risk of going woo for a moment, let me just give one example. Um, but it's a big, it's a big one, which is the unfindability of the self. So I know we're— I'm going woo. I warned us that I was going to go there for a second, but, but I'm going there because I want to tie this to like, um, because a lot of people think spirituality is about I need to get myself to believe something, to believe in God, to believe in spirit, to believe in something that I can't directly experience or see, and, and that's what faith is, and I have to have faith and And that's really hard. You know, so many of us are, you know, especially in the technology engineering world, like really value truth and the rigorous scientific search for truth. And I don't think they're in opposition. So let's just— so, um, yeah, I, I won't go all the way through it, but just if you start to rigorously investigate, like, let's do it. Let's do an exercise for 5 minutes. Okay. Um, so, uh, it's probably easiest to close your eyes. And what we want to do is just rigorously investigate where is the self, right? Because most people, you know, walk through the world with this really clear sense that like there's a me, there's a self, there's like— it's a solid, substantial thing. And one of the most powerful shifts we can make is recognizing the insubstantiality of the self. Um, so I'm not saying it doesn't exist on this chair.

Myself is sitting on this chair. Yes.

So, so, okay, so let's start with that. The body, right? So is the self in the body? Well, you know, if you lost your legs, God forbid, you know, your, your legs got cut off, like, would you still be fully yourself? Like, yes, more or less, of course, right? Um, and we know that the, you know, the cells re— fully replace themselves every— I forget exactly how long, but every so often. And so you literally are like, there is no— not a single cell in your body that's the same as, you know, 5 years ago, right?

Or— okay, so then I'm fine on my brain, like, right? So my brain—

okay, so it's— yeah, so you're investing— okay, so I'm not— the self is not in the body, right? And let's just go there just another second. Like, you know, your 10-year-old self obviously had a totally different body than you have today, yet notice you still felt like you. Yeah, right. There was still a sense of self in there, right? So, you know, some, some teachers ask the question like, what are you essentially? Where essentially means like, like unchanging. What part of you has never changed, right? When you were 10 years old, you felt like you Today you feel like you. So what's that aspect that's unchanging? So clearly it's not the body. Uh, so the brain is, um, kind of like a concept. So a lot of people will be, okay, I'm my brain, I'm my thoughts, but that's just a concept. So see if you can find a self that's not a concept, like in your direct experience.

I'm my physical brain and I'm the synapses shooting electrons.

Right, but in order to say that, you have to conjure up a concept in your mind right now. You're just imagining a brain, right? Like this grapefruit, you know, like wrinkly grapefruit thing. That's just a concept.

So what we're— or it's not a physical—

it's not a— it is a physical thing, but in your direct experience, like, that's like right now in your direct experience, you know, you could locate the brain in the sense of you have a Uh, you could picture a brain, but that's just a concept, right? You're just picturing something. You could locate it sort of in your head, but that's just a bunch of energy and sensation. So again, if you stay with your direct experience without conceptualizing, see if you can find a self.

I feel like I'm behind my eyes. Yeah, that's common.

So then just really look behind your eyes. Where exactly is the self behind your eyes?

I mean, I know I can't be behind my eyes because there's like skin and stuff there and vessels.

Well, and yeah, that's even— you're still conceptualizing. But if you just look directly, can you find exactly where the self is behind your eyes?

You mean a physical location? Sure. No.

Yeah. And then some people like, okay, it's further back in my head, like in my brain. And yes, there might be energy and sensation there, but what's aware of that energy and sensation, right? You're the subject, not the object. So then some people like, okay, I'm, I'm the thought, I'm, I'm my thoughts, or I'm this idea of this Dave character. Yep. But thoughts just— if you look at like, where do thoughts come from? Again, without conceptualizing, just do it now. Where do thoughts come from?

They just randomly appear in my head.

Yeah, from nothing. And even in your head, is that actually true?

I mean, I'm purposely being difficult to illustrate your point, but I'm purposely challenging you. All the electrical thing takes, happens, and the synapse connects.

I'm not a neuro— yeah, again, that's a concept, right? And it may be true as a concept, but in your direct experience— I don't know, my direct experience, this like little voice says something. Yeah. And where, right before that happened, where was that? Nowhere. I don't know. Yeah, nowhere. So thoughts seem to just arise from nowhere and then like appear from nowhere and then disappear into nowhere. Like, just notice you can't find a source of them. Right. Okay. Same with emotions. Hmm, that's a good one. Emotions, you know, it's like energy sensation. Your body appears from nowhere, disappears. Okay, so just, just sit for a moment with noticing you actually can't find a self if you really look directly. Hmm. And so this thing that we generally hold as true, like, I— that's who I am, I am this self, this Dave character, you're this Jesse character. It's, um, the metaphor I've heard is like a rainbow appearing in the sky. It's like, is a rainbow real? Well, with the right sort of conditions of the way the light and the moisture, you know, refract like it does appear in the sky, but it's really just made of the sky, and it's an appearance under the right conditions. So the self is kind of like that, and in some way it's useful to just think it's just a mental construct, right?

What's the so what of this though, as it vis-à-vis spirituality? And beautiful.

Okay, so here's what happens when you're identified as this individual separate self— I'm Dave, you're Jesse— um, a lot of attention and energy goes into defending and aggrandizing that identity. And, um, you know, we can tie it right into conscious leadership. Basically what happens is reactivity. All reactivity is defending the self. You know, you call it the ego, but the ego is just this the sense of this me. And when you start to, um, not as a concept but actually like connect with the, uh, I'll just say unfindability or insubstantiality of the self, like it just gets less solid. It's like, oh, you know, really, by the way, if you look at what remains when you see through the sort of illusory nature of the self Well, do you like— what's your sense of what remains? What's left over?

Energy.

Just some, but— and, and you may notice that energy has a knowing quality to it in this, right? There's like a sense of like a knowing of what's, you know, which—

I mean, I'm trying to play the skeptic because you obviously know I, I believe. Yes, I do. There's a love, a deep love that runs through.

Yeah, my favorite word is awareness, just because it's so simple. It's so— it's just like, again, if we're just searching for truth, like, we are— we seem to be aware, right? Like, we're not experiencing nothing, we're experiencing something. So, um, so I think if you really investigate directly, what you discover is that, again, these words are not all that useful, because unless you have the direct experience of it, they're just concepts that your mind is gonna you know, make into something that is not. But I think it's useful to consider that your true nature, let's say, is awareness. And then events arise in, in the field of awareness, like thoughts, feelings, sensations in the body, sights, sounds, smells, tastes, etc. And the more— and, and my favorite metaphor for awareness is like the sky. So just imagine you really have this felt sense of like, I'm like the sky, this like wide open field of awareness. And then events are arising, and events might be, um, a sensation in the body. An event might be a VC that was about to invest, uh, says no last minute. An event might be someone on my team quits. And it's like if You know, the sky has room for everything, right? The sky isn't bothered by thunderstorms or hurricanes or rain. So, similarly, this is why I think there's such a power, superpower for business leaders and entrepreneurs in spirituality. Because if you're walking around with this felt sense of like, I'm as expansive as the sky, then you don't get reactive to these things that occur.

And yourself, if you're— if it's all— if you're all part of this bigger—

right, it's like, what's there to defend if there's no— if I see through, like, the self is just this construct, but actually I'm just awareness and there's events arising, then there's no need to defend, right?

But you started this by talking about how you don't like to have belief That's right. And this is kind of a deductive exercise, like this was a logically reasoned exercise for why we're sort of—

there's no self. Well, it wasn't, it wasn't meant to be logical. It was meant to be a direct experience, right?

Tapping into what you experience as yourself. But Mike, I guess my question though is, so you're saying that you don't have to believe anything because you can directly experience that there is? That's right.

That's right. And then in fact, in fact, you are believing something now that isn't true. Right. Which is that you're— So, it's much more about letting go of these firmly held beliefs that you're in confirmation bias. I mean, we feel like a self, everything comes at us. What do you say?

So, there's science around the woo, but the newest science around the woo is like, "Oh, there's electrons and nothing is solid actually because it's all moving and we all know that." Quantum mechanics, right?

Yeah.

It's all just energy. Everything's just energy shaking even though it looks solid, it's not solid. But the historical view of this, like, and I'm curious actually for your clients how they break, like, what in terms of this thing, but like, but there's a very like sort of, you know, pop your balloon view of like, no dude, like this is just fucking biology. It's material. We're just animals. Animals with a brain. Like the brain makes up all this nonsense. Like, I guess I'm curious the, the, So if someone takes that view, by the way, there's no—

yeah, if you're a strict materialist, everything is random.

It's random you met your wife that day. It's random that you and I met each other. Like, dude, it's just all— it's like biology and randomness. Like, that, that's what exists. Yeah. And that's why I can exert my control in the world and become like the next Steve Jobs or whatever. And that's why I must do that, because it's just, you know, I'm just trying to play like the total red tape. Yeah. Yeah. This—

well, one, you know, we have the hard problem of consciousness. So anyone who's gone deep on, you know, search for truth around materialism, you know, no rigorous scientist or, you know, has ever been able to explain how the organ of the brain produces consciousness. Right. Um, and you know, if you read like Ken Wilber, it's like there's the subjective and the objective, and like they're just, they're just different. And trying to say that the brain produces consciousness really is just, it's just sort of denying consciousness. Um, like we do have a direct experience. So I guess there's, there's a couple things to say.

One is, well, first off, just sidebar, how do your clients break on this? Um, like, what percentage of them are like, man, it's just biology and, and like randomness? Like, there's nothing—

let me connect some dots and then come back to this. So, you know, for 10 years I've been primarily helping clients, you know, become conscious leaders in the sense of recognizing when you're below the line in a state of threat, shifting into a state of presence. So The nice thing about that framework is you can do all that without even thinking about spirituality. Like, it just— if you just notice, part of being human is we're wired to perceive threat. Um, I read something recently that was really cool. I was talking about like why, like why do moths fly into flames and streetlights? You know, if you look at moths, they're like idiotic, just flying into these streetlights constantly. It's because for a million years they navigated by the moonlight, right? You know, that was their nocturnal navigation system, which worked really well until we came along and built civilizations in which that, that, you know, that biology no longer is, is calibrated effectively. Well, the same thing is true for humans, right? We haven't evolved neurobiologically very much. We're not calibrated for the civilization, right? If you, if you look at, um, I was reading this Tim Urban book called What's Our Problem is if you look at like history and you imagine history, human history, about 250,000 years, um, imagine each page in a book being 250 years of human history. Um, basically it would be a 1,000-page book, and until page 999, it was pretty much the same, right? Hunters-gatherer tribes, and then only on page 1,000 of a 1,000-page book, it did, you know, exponential technology civilization. So we are absolutely not wired for the world we're in. Most people get that. And so we have this primitive mind, you know, Paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions, godlike technology. Like, and so there's just, again, putting aside spirituality, um, this core work of recognizing, oh, I'm in my primitive mind, my reptilian brain, reacting out of fear, to something that feels like a threat to my survival but isn't. So it makes sense to shift into a state of presence where I can respond creatively. And then the way I typically set up that work with clients is think of your startup or your company as your presence dojo. And so, um, or your life as your presence dojo, because all of the events and conditions of life that you can't yet be in a state of presence with Well, those are your growth opportunities. So that's— that we could tie that to like Tony Robbins, why is life happening for you, not to you? Well, even if you don't believe there's any benevolent force, simply believing that the goal is to be in a state of presence in a wider variety of circumstances so you can respond resourcefully and creatively, um, then anything that, quote, you feel like happens to you is really just another condition or experience, um, or event that you today can't be present with, but you can then learn to be present with so that you can be in a state of presence more and more of the time. So you can kind of get to all of that without spirituality. However, even if you're operating in a state of presence more and more of the time, it gets easier and easier to create what you want. Most human beings still experience this nagging little sense of dissatisfaction which arises out of misidentifying as the individual self. But I lost my thread, so you have to bring me back. Um, and so I, I think it ends up just naturally through our evolution. I think we're evolutionary wired to want to be well and happy and peaceful, which is why so many people do the things they do. So by the way, that intelligent force may just be evolution, that there's some way in which we're evolving toward more expansion and greater well-being. And so, even just expansion, right? If you look at single-cell organisms getting more and more expansive, similarly, like— I think is the—

I mean, you said— I started the question by asking you, you coach— Yes.

Oh, what do people think about materialism?

Well, what I'm picking up from you is you're saying like, well, you can answer the question actually, but even if whether they agree or not, I think what I'm getting from you in this whole episode is like, Direct experience is actually the thing you can go back to regardless of woo or not woo or belief. And, and I think that's right. I think it's a really important thing, which is like, I don't need to convince you God exists to— for you to know that when someone tells you the numbers are bad, your body, your body gets shut down and you feel like you're under threat and that you're not, you're not thinking clearly in those moments. Yes.

Or you're stressed out all the time and you're not present for your family and you're skipping workouts because you're so stressed. Like, it's pretty obvious that if you were in a more expansive, confident, clear state, you'd be more effective at everything you're doing, including leading and building. Um, and so yeah, in some way I'm most concerned with what works. And I, you know, look, in some ways science is a religion, right? Like, there's so many things that throughout history scientists have believed, gathered confirming evidence, and then only to find later they were wrong. There was some other variable that was confounding, right? And so materialism, you could say, is a religion, right?

Like, I mean, to me it's just humility. And I like— I love how Ram Dass and others just call it the great mystery, because the truth is we have no idea. And, but it's so funny, like, oh, science, science. And I'm like, dude, science thought the Earth was the damn center of the—

yeah, and flat.

And yeah, until like 300 years ago or 400 years ago.

And human conformism being what it is, right? Primitive mind conforming, being, staying with the tribe, belonging was basically— our mind is wired for survival, not truth. Our mind is not really inherently wired to seek truth. It's wired for survival, which leads to all sorts of cognitive biases and errors. So, in some way, you could argue a rigorous search for truth seems to have value. I think most people listening would say, "Yeah, I'd rather live from a place of knowing what's true than—" It would be useful. If you believe something that wasn't true, you'd want to know. Most people are just like, "Yeah, I'd want to know." Well, I will tell you, most of you are believing something that isn't true. Which is the entirety of what you are is the self, and who you really are transcends and includes the self. So this is not like— there's whole schools of thought that you have to kill your ego and deny it. Like, I don't believe that at all. Like, it's, it's useful, this mental construct of itself. It's like, we do certainly have an experience. Like, I don't— supposedly there's like spiritual whatever masters who could read minds, but like Most people's experience is, "I hear my thoughts, I don't hear yours." So, we don't want to deny that that's true. There seems to be this construct of a self and it's useful, but it's a little like, "Can you be in the world but not of the world?" Like when you're— I'll use the word "identified as awareness"— it's just you can kind of be undefended. And if you can be undefended, it's like Bruce Lee said, "Be like water." Nothing can touch you and so then, it just gets so much easier to create what you want to create in the world, which maybe is back to— I started like, we should ask you, Jesse. Like, you've had a major shift in your sense of who you are from this individual self to something more expansive.

Yeah, I think it's interesting that connecting all these dots, like, I was going to go there too of my own experience and obviously give you a lot of credit for it. I don't know. I think if I had met you in the first month and you were like, you're God, Jesse, and there's no self, I'd be like, dude, what the fuck are you talking about?

Totally. Yes. New coach, please. Well, I'm not saying you're God or, well, God is just a word, but I'm not saying there's no self, just to be clear.

I'm just saying, I think, I think even starting in that place, it would have been like you were speaking Japanese to me. And I think to your point, this is kind of what you did. You really, as a great coach that you are, you met me where I was. And you were like, "What's your direct experience? And when do you feel scared? And when do you feel—" And I think the first— I'm just kind of relaying maybe 10 years of the work we've been doing together is like the first year or two was like developing awareness of my actual experience and out of my head and into like the world around me, my body, like what was actually happening. Right.

Notice that you're making up stories and the stories might not be true.

I don't even think I knew— I knew when I was sad or scared. Like, I— like, the first time you told me, I feel a lot of fear, or you— I use fear to motivate myself, I was like, what are you talking about? I'm not— I said that to you. I was like, what do you— I'm not scared. And I think so the first— like, maybe in a funny way, the first thing we did was actually build this muscle of awareness together. And then as— again, as my experience, I was like, oh yeah, I think, I think, I think that is true that I do do that. Then there was like a kind of like reckoning of sorts of like, okay, I want to choose fear less, and I want to choose love and creativity and sort of like this other energy source, presence more. And as I did that, like, I became— I think the most important thing was I became more peaceful. My inner experience became much more free and peaceful. And then I also seemed to have a lot of success, at least, and I would define success not as like monetary success, but like I would think about what I wanted, I'd be clear, and then I would go create it. So I started living a lot more in want and preference versus should, because I'd spent a lot of my life in should. And I don't even know whose should it was, it was just general societal should, right? Yeah. But I was like, no, I would really love to move to St. Louis and start an incubator. And like, that's not the best idea, but it was like the thing I wanted. And I think so that started to grow. And then at some point, I mean, I was meditating, I think gratitude journaling. I think part of it, to your point, maybe was also I had a tight grip on the, the should and who I was and what should exist. And as that group loosened and loosened, I started to be like, oh, this is— there's things I thought that were true that are not true. Like, I, I just became more expansive maybe as a person, like more open-minded as a person. And then at some point I had an experience in the last few years of like the— and it's like, I think it's through direct experience and meditation and other spiritual breathwork, like that there is something that's been guiding me that is not me. Like, and that's again, I can't, I can't, like, I can just say I know it. I've experienced it. Not that I can, I can like convince you of it or anybody of it, but then, but then it became even in some ways it's, I don't know if it's, it's, well, it has become more powerful for me. One thing I'll just call out as a random like insight I've had that kind of similar to your, yourself. Experience is like, you know, everybody admits that you don't choose to be born and you don't choose when and how to be born. You don't choose when and how to die. Those things are just like— so one thought is like, why do you think you choose anything in the middle? But the more important thing is like, if you're not dead, there's some reason for you to be alive. And anyway, that's been a thing that's occurred to me of like, well, if I was supposed to be dead, I'd be dead, but I'm not. So like, why am I here? And what's Um, that's kind of been an energizing purpose. I don't know. That's a very short, that's a brief history of my experience.

Well, uh, tell me if this feels true, but my sense is the ease, the ease and efficiency with which you're able to create the business results you want have grown, has grown exponentially. Yes. So let's just acknowledge that there seems to be— it seems to be true, and we can explore this, you know, in depth. I, I think there's a lot to talk about here and unpack. Like, any of one of these could be, um, but it— and I've experienced this now many times. So, you know, the Heart of Entrepreneurship exists to stand for the idea that success does not require suffering. Well, um, it seems to be true that the more you do this work and live more undefended, um, both through practicing noticing what you are currently defending and, and moving toward a place of being less and less defended, um, you know through all different kinds of work, including potentially this more, you know, expansive sense of who you are, um, it becomes more and more efficient and joyful and easeful to create the results you want. That's been my experience as well. Now, it does sort of feel like magic sometimes, so this is the weird part that's like, you know, is it just coincidence? Is it correlation? But I notice, you know, I don't know what synchronicity is exactly. People talk about that. People talk about, oh, when you're operating at a higher frequency, you know, then higher frequency people and stuff happens. Like, I can't pretend to know exactly how that all works, but, uh, you know, I'm, I'm super interested, you know, as you are, in like the root, root cause of things, like the most efficient way Surf and turf is one of my values. I want people to have it all. For me, this joy and ease and lightness and awakening and enlightenment and— in this retreat I went to recently, they call it 5-star dharma and 5-star life. I want everyone to have both. I think it's exciting to recognize that they, they support each other. Like, if I have to choose, I'll take the 5-star dharma over the 5-star life, you know, resorts or whatever. But I don't think you have to choose. And I think some of the mechanism of that, it just, it seems to be true that the more open, the more expansive, the less reactive, um, the easier it becomes to create the results you want.

Yeah. Yeah, I think to wrap it, I mean, it's interesting. This is kind of a hard episode, interestingly. I'm curious to hear, you know, Pierre's people's feedback on it. But I think where it ends, or really begins, probably a better way to say it, where the episode ends, but where this thing is an invitation to anyone listening to just start to kind of like, to tap into your direct experience, start to notice yourself more, to even like if you just do the Above the Line, Below the Line from the Conscious Leadership and see where that takes you. Because I think for me, I think again, if you had started this stuff, it's 2016 and 2017 and we started working together, like it just, it wouldn't have made any sense to me. And I think there was so much, and even when I tell other founders about it, I never start here. I always start with, The ways you get motivated. Do you notice above the line, below the line? And, and I think, I think you really hit it in the middle of this, like, tapping into your direct experience is, is way more powerful than belief. Yeah. And I would say the only way I've come to believe in an infinite intelligence is through direct experience. It's not through belief. And by the way, I'm like religious, so theoretically I believed it for a long time. I went to Gurdwara every weekend and heard about this thing, but I didn't You know, again, I was watching this funny Jamaican guy the other day on TikTok. He's like, when you believe something, you doubt it actually, right? Like, you don't believe in your mother and father, you know them.

And so, yeah, I was going to ask you, is it a belief or is it a knowing? Which is—

well, it was a belief up until a few years ago, right? And then it's become a knowing. But it's to your back— back to your point, it's through direct experience only. It's the only way to actually come to it. Yeah.

Maybe a way to sort of encapsulate a lot of this is, um, because you described the 10-year journey, one way I heard it is like it's sort of self-awareness and self-discovery as distinct from like self-improvement. Whereas like most people start with like, I gotta make better, every, make everything better. And I think what we're pointing to and, um, you know, is, is rigorous, like intention around awareness and self-discovery of like, what's, what's really— like you said, oh, I am scared. I am like really looking at what's true in your own experience is the sort of doorway and pathway to the kind of expansion that ultimately makes it way easier to create the business results that you want. Yeah.

And maybe I'll just end with a final exercise that you've done a lot with me that I think is just a simple and easy way to tap into this higher intelligence, whether you believe in it or not, is like, it's just different times. We've like, you've like closed your eyes and like, what is coming through you right now? What do you think wants to happen here? And versus like getting in the brain and decision, if you actually get a little quiet, all of a sudden it, like in my experience, it really shows up. Yeah, much more undeniable than the, the circle in your brain.

I'll ask them that. What's your deep knowing about something. Yeah, one more just to leave with. Like, the other thing you've probably heard me say a lot is just imagine that, um, you're in the movie called Jesse's Life, and of course you're the main character, but imagine you're also the screenwriter. Again, this isn't capital T true, it's just a thought experiment. If you're the screenwriter of the movie, what did you create this scene for? And again, that becomes an invitation for it's not happening to me, it's happening for me. Yep. All right.

Until next time. Till next time. Thanks, Dave. Bye.