Why Acceptance Might Be the Fastest Way to Scale

Welcome to Heart of Entrepreneurship, where Dave Kashen, my long-term coach and one of the best coaches in the world, uh, coaches people via the podcast and myself as we talk and explore the heart of entrepreneurship, which is how do you build businesses from a place of love and growth versus fear, uh, and constraints. I keep, I keep trying a different thing just to see.

I like it. Love over fear feels like this is what did we say last time?

We said challenging the notion that success requires suffering.

Yes.

I like that. Um, so if you've never listened to the podcast, I kind of just think of random topics and sometimes they just come to me and Dave has no idea what they're gonna be. And that's kind of the fun of this, but So I literally, as I was logging on, I thought it would be fun to dive deep on the concept of acceptance.

Hmm.

And, and I'll tee it up a little bit and, and with our own history, which is, you know, when I first started working with you, Dave, I, I already knew you had to think about where you wanted to get to someplace in the future. That was already clear to me. I was like, okay, if I want to build a $100 million company, I'm a $1 million company. And I'm gonna use all this energy and like, why aren't I $100 million yet? Why aren't I $100 million yet? Why would, you know, and we talked about desired future state and some of those other things. And one day you said to me, you're like, hey, you're at, you're at $10 million. You want to be $100 million. Can you accept that you're at $10 million? And then like, that's where you are and what you've created in terms of who you've hired and things you've done have gotten you to $10 million. And I was like, no way. What are you talking about? Accept it. I can't accept it. Like, it's unacceptable. It needs to be better. Like, it needs to improve. It needs to grow. And if I accept it, that I'm literally— what it felt like in that moment was you're basically asking me to, to like throw in the towel and to just resign myself to what is here today. And there's no way I'm gonna do that. Um, You know, I'm looking for a new coach. Like, this is, well, why is this guy, what's this guy doing to me?

So he's trying to make me soft.

Yeah. And, uh, or lazy. And I've obviously come to learn that, that that's not exactly what acceptance means, but I think when you first talk to anybody about it, that's sort of where everybody, everybody starts. And so I wanted to, yeah, I wanna talk about acceptance.

I love it. I love this topic. It's very near and dear to my heart, and I think it is one of the most, um, resisted and maybe misunderstood topics. So, so first, this is a, this is one of the most common conversations I have, especially with newer clients. Um, because I think most, I'll just say of us, especially, you know, entrepreneurs, high achievers. Like we've spent most of our lives, um, either being told or telling ourselves or both that we're not good enough and things are not good enough, but they could be in the future. And so if we just work hard enough, you know, we could get to the place where we're finally, we finally arrived.

And it, it, it's a Um, and just to be clear, there's like a societal, I think, mile markers around you get into college, uh-huh, you get a great job. And, and these, so there are like little tastes of it that seem to reinforce this concept, I think.

Yes. There's a, one of my favorite, um, I guess videos is Alan Watts has this video called Life Is Not a Journey. And he talks about how the metaphor of life as a journey has you feel like there's somewhere to get and you're not there yet, but it's coming, right? You know, you go to, like you say, you go to kindergarten and then first grade's coming and then college is coming and then the job is coming and then it's like always like, it's, it's coming. That thing is coming. And then eventually you're just like old and you're like, wait, I guess, I guess this is it, you know, but it's sort of like missed, you missed the whole, um, experience. 'Cause as he says, like, it was, it was more like a dance, right?

Or a, or a piece of music.

Yeah. Like a, yeah. Like you don't, right, exactly. You don't dance to arrive at a spot in the room. You dance to dance. And, um, so, you know, dance while the music's being played is sort of the, the poetic way to say it. But the, you know, the, where these link is that, that feeling, which I think is a really pervasive human experience that we couldn't even, we we can even go deeper around like what causes that. Like, I think I'll just point at the seed of like, I think there's this core disconnection most people experience from our essential self that feels like a void that then has us think there is something missing. There is, you know, there is a lack, there's a void, you know, it is not good enough. And then the, our best kind of hypothesis, you know, conscious or not is there's some external condition that once I've achieved, you know, we'll fill that void, right? Like, like a hungry ghost. So, so, and then it kind of works, you know, at least in terms of obtaining more societal recognition, uh, money, right? Status, like, and we value these things. Like, I don't want to poo-poo them, but also we can overvalue them.

Right.

So it sort of works cuz it drive, you know, it dr— that sense of like there's something missing, that sense of lack, it's not good enough. It really drives us, right? We talked about, you know, sort of dir— the way dirty fuel, you know, gas guzzles, guzzling cars, you know, the gas works, but it's, it's not as clean as, you know, electricity, let's say. Um, so I just wanna acknowledge like it, it's the water most of us swim in for the first 20-odd years of our life. So then if someone comes along like a coach and is like, oh, could you just accept yourself exactly as you are? Could you accept your company exactly as it is? Could you accept your life exactly as it is? It is threatening to that whole system and that whole source of motivation. And, and even when you start to like experiment with, like play with, like, oh, could I, could I accept myself? You start to feel that motivation. Dissipate and then it's really scary cuz you're like, oh wow. Like again, if you're coming from that old paradigm, it's like, okay, if I'm not motivated anymore, then I might not get to the place where I feel fulfilled and safe and free and worthy. So that's really scary.

But let's, let's talk about, let's pause there for a second. So the, cuz I think that's a really important point. I think. If, you know, I don't know, let's say getting into college, right? You're like, I need to get to the top school and I gotta get great SAT scores. And, and, and there's almost like a, my grades need to be great. And, and, and there's a creation of like, oh, I don't have it yet, so I need to go get it. And it's like, that actually has motivated me. That was what I was using to go accomplish the thing. I don't, you know, I want to get that. That's true for me. Let's say.

True for me as well.

And then fast forward 10, 15 years, you're building a business, you're doing all this stuff. And the first feeling when, when Coach Dave walks in and says, are you willing to accept? I think, and I've had that question, the conversation with a lot of people and the first, the first reaction is no, why, how could that work? Or why would that work? But even if you start to convince someone of it, then. This fear comes about, because I think that's what you're speaking to, which is like, wait, okay, I can see how accepting it would make me happier. People will acknowledge that even, but then they'll turn around and go, whoa, no, no, no. But then what would cause me— like, they realize that they've been using it. So maybe, maybe the question is, why is non-acceptance such an effective form of motivation?

I think Because when our system experiences tension, it's very like, like we're wired to move toward pleasure and away from pain. Like it is, it feels like pain in the system. And so I think our system naturally wants to move away or resolve that tension.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Just any system where there's tension, like there's just a natural, I think, um, drive a natural kind of evolution toward resolving the tension, right? Like if you're in a fight with someone you care about, it looms large cuz it's, it just feels like, you know, tension, it's uncomfortable. And so we naturally wanna resolve it. And I, I, so I think when, because it's so easy to create tension by, you know, one, our mind is very, um, affirming of the idea because that's part of our survival mechanism of like, right, our mind is huge bias toward what's wrong, what's missing, what could hurt us. It's like a self-protective mechanism. And it seems to perceive that it's way safer to believe there's something wrong and be on the lookout for what's wrong in us, in the world, than to believe everything's okay. So there's a, it's kind of like it's the default path.

Well, it's almost like, it's like the cavemen, if they were in a colder atmosphere, they naturally wanted to move to a warmer atmosphere. Yeah. Because then we've somehow used our brain to create like, oh, you know, the society obviously is like, well, Ivy League school better than state school, you know, whatever. There's some version of creating that, that then unlocks.

Yeah. And we could map it back to like, okay, you know, saber-tooth tiger, obviously a lot of tension in the system, a lot of fear. So that caused us to take action and run away. Right. So that's the core survival patterning. Um, and then, you know, our ancestors were tribal beings, so status in the tribe really directly impacted your wellbeing, survival, right? So if you take that wiring over thousands of years and then like all of a sudden over a couple hundred years, like soon change the whole environment where suddenly we're not really in tribes, we, you know, on average at least, um, have enough food, clothing, and shelter, et cetera. But our wiring is still very much that like survival Based.

And, and just, I know the answer is, but I want you to say it again, which is what's, what's the downside of non-acceptance? But if it works, if it makes me rich and it gives me status and it, uh, you know, takes care of my kids and grandkids, like my, what's the downside?

So, um, from my experience, it creates suffering. It's, um, You know, the Buddha talks about like grasping, you know, basically resistance and attachment are like the two primary sources of human suffering. So resistance is non-acceptance, right? It's like, I don't, you know, reality is the way it is, right? Like you, you are the way you are. Your company is exactly as it is. It's, it's not any different than it is, right? By definition. So not accepting yourself or your company or your life is just a version of resisting what is, which creates that inner tension, which on the one is, again, that's why I like referring to it as dirty fuel, because it is fuel, but it's dirty in the sense that it, it has this toxic residue. It literally feels, um, constrictive in our system. And look, I mean, you know, even just look at health, like so many health issues they're finding are caused by stress, right? There's that adage that like your boss has a bigger impact on your health than your doctor, right? 'Cause so much of our, you know, chronic health conditions for humans today are caused by stress. Stress is caused by that tension of things aren't the way they should be, or, or fear of, you know, them not becoming, being, yeah.

What came to, came to mind for me was that we talked about a few episodes ago, the, the, the, the Airbnb CEO Brian Chesky's post of, I IPO'd, I made $10 billion, and he just didn't feel— and I think, I think when it comes up for most of my founder friends, I'm sure a lot of your clients is like, when will I feel peaceful, happy, successful, fulfilled? When will I feel that? Because now I've done the things and there's like, there's entire WhatsApp post-exit founder groups and there's this whole movement around it because they're all still searching because And so my, what I, I, you know, part of why I thought that, that example of just like, well, the downside of is it doesn't actually get you what you, whatever he claims they want.

Oh yeah. That's, I think, yeah, there's a few things to unpack there. One is, let's say it's a 7-year journey and for 7 years you're stressed out and putting this pressure on yourself. By the way, difficult to be present with your family when you're operating from that place, right? 'Cause you're, mind is just go, go again, because it feels like survival when your sense is like, so you're telling yourself something's wrong here. So you're basically in this reactive survival mode, right below the line, it's in Conscious Leadership, you know, language for 7 years. And then great, you, you have the exit and for like a week you're rejoicing and celebrating a week if you're lucky. Honestly, I've seen this pattern now again and again, you know, I'm, I'm in the privileged position of being with founders through that journey and through the, you know, through the exit, right? The triumphant moment, right? Including you. And you tell me, but what I've seen as a pattern is there is a definite relief. That's honestly, that's probably the biggest feeling that founders have is relief. Like, oh, finally, I like, I'm done striving to get to this thing and I got it, which is funny in a way. It's more relief than even like joy and It's not fulfillment generally, or maybe it is for like a day or two. Again, I'll say give it a week at most. And then you sort of start feeling the same feelings. Your mental patterns just start applying to something different. Like, oh, now, God, what if I don't perform well at the parent company that just acquired us? Or, You know, what if they have a one-hit wonder?

I, yeah, what all these different, I see that again and again.

It's crazy, right? You know, they go to start the next one and they're even more stressed cuz like, what if I get found out that I, that was just a fluke, that last one where I made $100 million? Cuz again, if we're, if we're, we're tying our identity and our worthiness, right? It's like our ego.

It's wild because it, it, the funny thing about working on a startup and using dirty fuel is it's, it feels, and this happened to me too, and you remember, it's like, it feels very practical to go like, this is my life's work. This is where I make all my money from. This is where I'm gonna, this, the ego is like, hey, this is survival. And your first company especially, you're like, yeah, of course it's all one-to-one. Like it, this, this is logical. Then yeah, like, you know, Alex Lieberman talks about this. He sold his company, you know, when we, we like, then we, then the ego goes, well, you can't, that narrative is gone cuz you have money now. You have status.

So I can only believe it's a new thing I can worry about.

I must be a one-hit wonder. Now I must go prove that I'm not a one-hit wonder. Or now I, now I didn't make enough money. And you know what, Jesse, you know, with $50 mil you can only do, you can't get yourself a private jet. So now I need to like, but it'll, it manifests in so many other ways and it's, I mean, it's the same thing, I guess, of non-acceptance, which I guess maybe the bottom line, it feels like you're gonna mortgage those years to get to not ultimately get the thing. It's not, it is not like you do it and then you get peace. It's basically this, this, that's like a, a false belief, and you and I have seen enough people to know that non-acceptance basically is gonna mortgage X number of years. It might be anywhere from 5 to 15 with your family, with your life. Like you're just gonna, there's parts of the ambusher journey, especially early on that are complete blurs to me. I don't remember them. Like I genuinely don't remember them. And only to find out that you're gonna land in a place that even if you have $20 million in your bank account, you're still not gonna feel fulfilled, happy, peaceful, because your brain is still going to find some new—

Yeah.

And anything to not accept or whatever.

And for 7 years, all basically all you've been doing is external work, right? The work of changing your external conditions without changing your internal conditions. And from my experience, if you don't change your internal conditions, your internal conditions don't change. Like if you don't intentionally proactively. Like, I just think the biggest myth is that your external conditions determine your internal conditions, right? That is probably the biggest, most pervasive myth in the human experience. And, you know, it's a little extreme to say they have no impact. Is it easier to feel joy and peace when you have a lot of money versus no money? Sure. When you're on the beach in Hawaii versus You know, in prison, of course, right? So I don't want to say it has no impact and there's a lot of research on this. Maybe it's 20, 30%, but it's not nearly as much as we think. And it is possible to intentionally change your internal conditions. It takes way less time. It's actually way, way less effort. So like the ROI on like investing in your, you know, internal growth is extraordinary relative to ROI of spending 7 years. Trying to get, you know, success and millions of dollars and then still not experiencing it. Now, some people, I don't know, like for whatever reason, some people just need to go through that to, to see it through. By the way, I, I just wanna own, like, I didn't really believe it. Like there's a part of me that's like, yeah, yeah. But once I hit my number, like, yeah, I, I get that theoretically, but once I have $10 million, $20 million, you know, and honestly, there's a, I can feel a part of my system, my mind that still believes it now that does that same game. That's like, totally. Okay. But if I had like twice as much and I was generating this much passive income, then I'd really be free and I wouldn't have to do this. Or so, so it's a really, um, ingrained pattern. That, that like lives in us. Um, but let, let me go back to one point I really wanna make, which is this great irony that the reason that you do feel some peace and relief and even fulfillment for a day or a week is because finally your external conditions have met your mind's idea of how the external conditions should be.

Right.

Another word for that is acceptance. That's the, that's what's like the joke of it. It's like, it's like, you know, looking at a beautiful sunset and you feel peace because for that moment, right, you don't want anything to be different.

Nothing needs to be different.

It's not.

Yeah. The day you exit and the money hits your bank account, you're like, nothing needs to be different.

Finally. Life is exactly the way my mind thinks it should be. So great for that minute, that day you feel.

And even if you pay attention to your mind, like in, in our moment, I remember, you know, it was like I was with Nick, we were in New York. Um, but I remember my mind going, man, I wish Dee was here. I wish my wife was with me right now. And she wasn't able, whatever it, like, you know, I went home and they, we had a big, like she had set up a big surprise, a little party. And, and that was, I was also really fun and beautiful and Um, but yeah, it's funny. It's a great, great point, which is the moment, those moments are moments of deep acceptance of what's going on. And then a week later you go, oh, but my friend made more money, or maybe I should have sold it for more money. Or yeah, what if I was a one-hit wonder? So let, let's, we've talked about the sort of non-acceptance, I guess. What is acceptance?

Yeah. Acceptance is letting go of wishing anything about your current experience was different than it is. Okay. It's in my experience, it's more a letting go and a release of resistance than anything else because, um, like life is the way it is. That's just a tautology, right? To say it is what it is, you know, that's just true. And so, um, like to your point, our minds will tend to make up a story about how it would be better if things were already different. And so releasing those stories, basically letting go of the story that there's something wrong here, that there's something missing, is what allows, what creates the experience of acceptance. It's like fully allowing everything to be as it is. And so you point that, I'll just finish. You could point that to like, you know, a specific person, right? Like, oh God, I really wish, I wish my wife was more adventurous. I wish, you know, okay, could I just accept her just as she is? You could point that to a team member, to your company, to your fitness level, to your whole life, to your revenue, to your cash, to your feelings, by the way. Yeah. To your revenue, to your profits., to your fund, how much money you've raised, how, you know, um, how long it's taken to raise anything, right? Any, any condition of life, you could choose to judge it as this is bad, it shouldn't be this way, or not judge it. That's another way to say it. Um, and there's a real connection between acceptance and love because, you know, I think love by its nature is unconditional. So when we remove a condition, you know, that our mind has for how things need to be, we experience love, right? That's what, you know, when you think about loving somebody, like there's a, there, you know, there's a direct inverse correlation between love and judgment. Yeah. So if you want to really love somebody, let go of your judgment. If you wanna really love your life, let go of your judgment. And, um, that's an interesting one to play with because a lot of people like, I want to, I want to have a life I love. I want to have a job I love. Right. And that most people again, think of that means this specific set of external conditions will be met. But the other way you could think of it is I will no longer judge my conditions and then I will have a life that I love, right? To love your life is simply to let go of judging it and thinking it should already be different than it is. And this is, I think, so I, so hold on one second.

I, so I accept, so I have acceptance for this moment for my revenue. My revenue is $10 million.

Do you right now?

Uh, sure. I'm making that up as an example, but, but then how the, the question that again, every entrepreneur wants to know is then how do I still How can I go chase the thing I want in the future? And why is that any different than what we just talked about non-acceptance being?

Yeah. So first of all, let's talk about time, which is, um, one of the key distinctions is acceptance versus resignation. And I think that's, uh, I think people conflate that, like And so the, the mind says, okay, if I accept my, let's say, company exactly as it is, that means it's not going to improve.

Right.

Right. Because we're projecting again, because if, because we're, we've been used to using the motivation of frustration and dirty fuel to motivate. Um, but there's just this general sense. That like, if I accept things as they are, that means that I'm resigned to them continuing to be that way.

Right.

And what's ironic. And I think really a paradox is accepting things the way they are maximizes the probability of them evolving and changing and growing.

So yeah, I, I, there's an analogy I use for this and I always, it's funny, I always talk about this, but it's a common experience I guess I've had is like when you miss a flight. And I'm sure there's some people who miss flights and they're like, ah, I missed the flight. It's like, and maybe they're mad about it, but even if they're, even if you were to bitch about it, maybe that lasts 10 minutes. When I miss a flight, I feel, I feel total peace and relief. I feel acceptance.

I'm like, I'm not, apparently I'm not going on that plane. Yeah.

That flight's not like, And it's, it's similar. I mean, what the—

was that always true?

I think I feel a lot of tension going, getting to the gate.

Mm-hmm.

And then once I know I've missed the flight, mm-hmm.

And I'm like, okay.

And then immediately what happens is like, my mind is clear. I'm going into the next steps. I have, I don't bring the past into the, into that present moment. And it's, I use that as an example because, because part of, part of what comes up for me around acceptance is whatever's happened in the past is it's already happened. Whatever company is here today is the past. And like the, again, I don't know if for people listening, if they've missed a lot of flights, but like, or even if they've had the tension of, oh my God, am I gonna make it or not? That's a really tense feeling. And then whether you make it or don't make it, you feel relief. And I, and at least from my experience, you feel— no, you may feel a little frustration that you missed it.

Yeah. Disappointment.

Maybe beat yourself up a little bit over that. But even if you did that, you, every person I know or anyone I've ever seen, it's like that can't last that long cuz you know, you have to go, okay, what's next? Like. I gotta go figure the next thing out. And it's so discreet that I feel like it illustrates this really well. Versus in a company, you'll, you'll, you'll like, no, it's a, you, you won't accept, you know, you, oh no. You know?

Yes. Another metaphor I sometimes use is a, a literal roadblock. Like you're on, you know, you're on a road trip or you're driving somewhere and there's a literal roadblock. Like you can't go, like most people are not like, oh God.

Why me?

Why is this happening? What's wrong with me? I'm so stupid. I, I, why'd I think I could do, you know, they're just like, oh, okay, I guess I gotta find another way. Yeah. And if you could live life that way, especially as a founder, like, 'cause there's tons of roadblocks and setbacks, especially relative to your ideas and expectations of how things would go. Right. You know, no, no business plan meets contact with the market, right? To, right. Paraphrase that.

You just get a lot of clarity from, from the acceptance piece of it. But then I, I guess maybe it, it doesn't— you, if I accept where I'm at and I, there's a difference of resignation, that's not resignation. I guess that's an important distinction, right?

I accept how it is right now and I could still, and this is a paradox, so like humans are capable of holding paradox. And one way I've heard of it described is that the being-becoming paradox. So if we just apply it to you, like, I accept myself just as I am. That's being, right? I can just be, I accept myself exactly as I am. I let go of needing to be different and I can imagine like an even better version of me in the future. And that being able to hold that paradox. Creates a different kind of tension, like creative tension. It's like more of a sense of flow motivation, right? I think about like frustration, fear, or flow. Um, and that's, that's, I don't know, this is where you're going. To me, I think we've talked about this, but I think it's a good reminder. Like that's the clean fuel that is possible. That's how you achieve wild success without suffering. Is you get really practiced in accepting the now as it is and imagining some even better future, or you don't even have to label it even better, but some desired future.

Well, it's interesting. I think one of the core beliefs we've talked about in previous episodes that I held for a long time, I think a lot of people hold, is if I don't do something, if I don't create this feeling of lack, I will not accomplish, I will become a waste of space. And I think so one underlying belief to call out is that You have to basically believe the opposite of that, which is no, you're a creative being.

Yeah.

And when you're just free, you are gonna create something. You are meant to, you are meant to create something in this world. Now that something is up to you as to what it is. And, and I think that is once you, if you could see the belief that, that like you don't need to be pushed to do something, you can, you are naturally, there's a, there's a force that will emanate from you. I think that's a really high level belief to shift. There was a really specific activity you and I did 4 years ago, 5 years ago, as you may or may not remember, but it was this concept of, and I wanna call this out 'cause I think there's, we talk about a lot of stuff, but there's a lot of work that goes into a lot of these things to shift yourself.

Like a lot of practice, at least a lot of practice.

Yeah. You, we, we, you and I, well, you did it. I mean, you told me to do it, which is quiet my mind, try to get to an acceptance of whatever is here right now, and then notice what is coming up and whether it's a compulsion, like whether it's compulsive or impulsive. Yeah. And the distinction we drew was compulsive is like, I'm scared. I have to do something to relieve this. And impulse, we called it, is not to be the common definition is the impulse was, I would love this to be, I would like, I wanna color in a coloring book or I wanna research this industry or, and I think that was a really practical tip for me. And it's something in some sense I use today in developing the distinction between I'll call it brain and heart, right? Or, or mind and intuition, which is quiet yourself enough to, to get to this point and then think to yourself, like, and so many of us have so many compulsions.

Yes.

So many, like, oh my God, uh, I'm afraid about the business. I'm gonna send a bunch of emails to try to get meetings to get more business about, like, I need to go exercise right now. I need to drink. Like, what, whatever those things are, they're compulsions that are trying to pull us out of the present versus something that goes, Hey, this would be cool.

Yeah.

I'm curious about this. I wanna learn more about this. And everybody has both of them and they're probably with all of us throughout our lives. But I think really that was a really important, for me at least, this whole acceptance thing in some sense hinges on being able to know.

Yeah.

And develop a knowing around what you want to create in the world, what your being wants to create in the world.

Yeah. I think you hit on a few really important points, so I do think most people believe they're somehow like fundamentally flawed or broken or lazy or, and they need to be like, like you said, pushed almost like whipped into good behavior. Like if you really look, I, you know, whether it's fitness goals, business goals, I think most people start unconsciously with the premise like, yeah, I, If left to my own devices, I'll just become a lazy, overweight, unhealthy, indulgent, you know, I don't know.

And a lot of that, by the way, comes, I think, from childhood.

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Our well-meaning parents to do something, they told us we were bad if we didn't do it. And it was like, yeah.

Or like all well-meaning parents. My dad used to say totally with a smile on his face, like all play and no work makes Jack a jackass. Mm-hmm. Right. And he meant it from the best place and it, it served me well in so many different ways. It wasn't. But it's like you definitely as a kid internalize that like, man, if you don't do something, you're gonna be— and parents do that 'cause they want, they don't want their kids to like, you know, it's out of love.

They, you know, they're trying to protect their kids and, and we're trying to protect ourselves. But a lot of the things we're trying to protect ourselves from are made up stories about what will happen that aren't actually true. So, um, so that's, I think that's a level to really acknowledge if you have a belief that you're fundamentally flawed, broken, something's wrong with you, to really challenge that. Like I would, like I hold the belief that yeah, people are fundamentally good and want to create beautiful, you know, positive things in the world that serve other people. And I, I do think that is what tends to happen. Like the more you feel a sense of peace and love, from my experience, the more you want to serve and give and create value for people, not less. You don't become self— like what creates selfishness and self-centeredness. And by the way, I don't, I don't hold like selfishness like a bad thing, but, um, oh, there's this great quote, um, that I heard from Joe Hudson and heard from other people, which is like, humility is not thinking less of yourself, is thinking of yourself less. Um, so I just, uh, these are all related because when you're in that kind of ego, something's wrong mode, all of your attention tends to be on trying to fill that void. So it's all on yourself. So even if you're trying to create value through your company, it's really generally you're trying to create value for yourself, which by the way, makes you less effective at creating value for others. Um, but I want to relate for a second, like compulsion to addiction. Because they're very obviously very related. They sound related. What creates addiction is trying to fill a need with something that doesn't actually fill that need, or really is trying to create a feeling with something that doesn't actually create that feeling. So this comes back to what you're talking about, right? If you think you need money to feel safe or free, well, money doesn't actually make you feel safe or free. So you're just gonna you're, that's the compulsion because it's, it's like this misguided attempt to fill this void that isn't created by a lack of money.

It's created by this, like you're hungry and you're just eating like sugar, you're eating candy and sugary stuff.

That's a great example. Right. And you crave it and then, and it doesn't actually, doesn't actually fill you, satiate you. So then you crave more and then you're like, oh, I guess that's not enough sugar. Same, like, I guess that's not enough money. I need more. It's not enough success. So a lot of people, you know, including myself for a number of years are in these compulsive, ultimately addictive patterns. And we can get addicted to the adrenaline rush of like the highs and the lows and all that, which is different than operating from creative impulse, from like authentic want. And so let's just, let's really elucidate that difference. Compulsion is I'm, I don't feel peaceful now. Because I don't accept things as they are. I feel like something's wrong. And so that, um, there's a compulsion to get rid of that feeling. And then generally we try to get rid of that feeling with things that don't actually get rid of that feeling, like success and status and money. And so then we have more compulsion, right? That's the cycle most people are in. So let's contrast that with, I accept things as they are. I feel actually a sense of peace. Simply by accepting things as they are. And then without any sense of lack, I have a creative impulse just because we're human. Like you said, we're creative beings. It just arises and I follow it. Or, you know, another way to say it is I feel energized to do something in particular. I feel a sense of aliveness when I imagine something, you know, so excitement.

Yeah.

What, what was your word?

Excitement.

Excitement.

Yeah.

So then life just becomes about following aliveness and excitement, not because you don't feel alive and excited now, you do feel alive and excited. And, and so like, if you feel that and nothing's missing, well, what else would it make sense to do than follow aliveness and excitement? And from my lived experience now coaching hundreds of founders, following aliveness and excitement is an amazing strategy to be wildly successful and love your life. So that's what's so cool is like, I don't know exactly how it works. I could, I could make up a story that like, well, just because you're excited about it, you're more magnetic and you're more passionate and you have more energy. And so you're more likely to be successful that I think there's, there's some truth to that.

And it's, it's like maybe what you're meant to do or what the universe—

well, that's, yeah, that's a more spiritual interpretation is like you're following your dharma, your, your path, your dao. Um, there's this notion of called Wu Wei, um, that's coming to mind, which is like effortless action. And I think it's an important notion because it resolves the apparent polarity between peace and action. Like a lot of people think if I feel peace, I won't do anything. Because most of their life when they're doing things, they don't feel peace. But it's not because doing things is not peaceful. It's because they're doing things from a place of lack and compulsion.

Right.

So that's the thing. I'm like, I get so excited when clients experience, and myself, is like, oh, this idea just pops to my mind. I feel excited about it. I follow it. I do it. It's not like I don't do anything about it. I still take action., but it's like, I'm just following my aliveness. I'm taking action.

Yeah.

It's cool things.

People call it flow and like, I mean, my most viral social media posts got, I wrote them in 15 or 20 minutes and it didn't even feel like I was writing. It felt like they were just flowing through me. Yes. And, and like, you're like, ooh, this just has come through. And I think writers talk about writing books like that. I mean, there's just a lot of human, the creative impulse. And again, I think part of what's important, at least for me and those, is once you can believe that and accept that there is that creative impulse in you, it gets rid of the fear of needing to keep yourself in a non-acceptance state in order to produce results. And you realize, no, there's a different gear in me. Now here's another, at least in my experience, another funny curveball. I'm sure you've seen this in coaching is oftentimes the things you're doing, this is like the Conscious Leadership context versus content thing. The thing you're doing is still the same thing you might be meant to be doing. Sometimes you have to wake up and you go to the woods and you become a guru or something. You just completely change your job or stuff. And that happens to people. But what I've seen for myself and others more often than not is it's the same thing. It's just doing it in a different way. And I'll, I'll use the example of my wife. She's a Type 2 in the Enneagram and she's the helper and she loves to help other people and make them feel great. And she's a care caretaker, but she's also learning, like, and it's, it's crazy to think about this. Like she does it often from below the line, from a feeling of lack and like, oh, I need them to love me back and that's why I'm gonna do this. And then she starts to feel frustrated and resentful. But when she's above the line, she does the same exact stuff.

Yeah.

She still just takes care of a bunch of people. She's just like, I'm doing this cuz that's the creative impulse arising for me. So it's, it's another kind of a spiritual interpretation, which might be like, God is gonna have you do the same thing either way. It's, you know, Jesse's gonna be an entrepreneur. He is gonna start businesses. Well, that's gonna happen. He can allow it to happen via his creative impulses and his, his like love and joy, or he can, he can suffer his way through it either way. That's what's been chosen for me. And that's, I mean, that's quite spiritual, but, but it's, but I think that's true for my wife. Like I, it, the more I've seen that pattern, it's almost the same thing you watch people do.

I think it's a, it's a really important point you're making because people tend to think like, okay, well, like, what do I do if I'm peaceful and joyful? Like, like they, they think that the set of actions are going to be totally different. Right. Um, to your point, like they're gonna go become a monk in, in the woods or sheep, you know, sheepherder. And so often it's, it's not about different actions. It's about an entirely different internal experience as you do the actions. Sometimes the actions that occur you to do are different, but they're usually degrees different. They're not, you know, 180 degrees different, right? Like, you know, you might speak differently to your team and inspire them in a different way or take a risk you wouldn't have taken. Um, and yeah, I, I, well, two things came to my mind. One was there, the, um, there's this conscious leadership framework that I think came from Michael Beckwith of like, to me, by me, through me, and as me. So like, life happens to me is like the victim below the line. Life happens by me is like a shift from there. Like, I'm the creator of my experience. Um, but then there can be this surrender to like, life happens through me, which you were alluding to, which is much more of a stance of listening and allowing. And I do find that the more you accept life as it is, you're less constricted. You're more open. You're more still, you're more quiet. Just practically speaking, it's easier to hear the quiet signals, right? And you know, Oprah, like people talk about like the still small voice. Right. And most of us have had this experience at times, like you said, oh, these, this, I just, oh, I had this idea to write this blog post and it was like my most viral. Where did that idea come from? Right. Generally those come not when you're like, I gotta think of a viral idea. Right. They come in the shower or when you're calm and you're quiet because you're, you're the noise in your mind is quiet enough for you to kind of connect those weak signals, right? And have those insights. And so it's another kind of bid for acceptance is it creates the stillness, the quiet in which you can have insights and clarity and, um, and new ideas that it's like, where do they come from? Right. It's like, really, it's an interesting question. Where do they come from? Um, and if you, if you are exploring a more spiritual stance, like I sometimes play with the idea that, um, like what if really we have no free will and we're just like puppets of love, God, the universe, and our mind is just this like narrative overlay to it. Like we think we, we think we decided to, I think I decided to move my arm, but really I just had the thought I'm gonna move my arm and then my arm moved that like, What if the thoughts are literally not connected to the actions and we can't know for sure that they are? Sure feels like they are, but it's fun to play with as a thought experiment. And it, for me, it's really liberating that like, oh, what if I'm not even choosing? You know, like I didn't choose for that thought to come into my mind. I didn't choose for like, if you, if you trace back a few steps, like, okay, yeah, I just moved my arm, but like, why did I decide to move my arm? Like, where did that come from?

Right.

It's an intriguing path, but way before that, if you just start to accept whatever is moment to moment, and it is a moment to moment thing, like, like it's a practice, right?

Um, yep.

So it's not like you're just gonna go, oh, I've been, I've been resisting reality my whole life. Now I'm just gonna accept everything in every moment and like be the Buddha. It's more a, a literal moment to moment practice of noticing Oh, my mind just made up a story that it shouldn't be this way. Something's wrong. Something missing. Letting go of that story because it is just a story your mind made up.

Yep.

Um, and I invite you, if you're listening, just do it right now just to get a taste of it. Like in this now moment, could you let go of wishing anything was different than it is? And if you can, you'll likely notice a real sense of like your system settling down and you're in a more resourceful, creative, open, expansive state. And if not, then, you know, accept the resistance, you know, find the thing you can accept. And then, you know, you might get curious what you're scared might happen if you accept things as they are.

And for people wondering about meditation, I think this is literally what meditation is, is just, can you be with whatever's coming up? And not react or respond to it. And if the more you meditate, I'll say two kind of funny things in my experience. One is the more I've meditated, that's the like focused practice, but I found just in my day-to-day life, the ability to not be so reactive. I can accept a moment when something comes and I'm not expecting it. Or the other funny thing is there's different times of day or days of week where I find it harder to sit for 10 minutes and other times where it's really easy. And that just shows you that it's, you know, it's, it's a dynamic. It's a dynamic thing. And, and there are times when it is, um, there's times when I sit and for 25 minutes it passes, I don't even realize it. And I'm in, in the mornings, nothing's happened yet. Then sometimes I'll try to meditate in the middle of the day and I'll go 7 minutes. I'll be like, it's been, it's been like 30 minutes, like 7 minutes. Because, and that's, I think it, knowing, knowing that as someone you and I both practice a ton and we do it a lot, it still can be Uh, yeah, our, your, your mind is the mind.

Our minds have some pretty ingrained patterns and we, it's, it is really challenging to not identify as the mind because it's right there and it's loud and it's, it's like in, in our, you know, like the, the, the voice is right there. It feels like it's in our head. It feels like it's us.

Yeah.

Um, I wanted to add one thing on the meditation. A lot of people experience meditation as torture because they're resisting. They're not accepting. They're thinking, I shouldn't have thoughts right now, or I shouldn't be thinking about my— I shouldn't be hooked with by my thoughts. And so the whole time they're resisting, it's like 10 minutes of resistance, and that's a microcosm for your whole life. And that, this, that suffering. And I really like the idea of thinking about your life as a living meditation where it's not about quieting the mind in every moment. It's about just accepting everything that is, whether it's a thought or something that's happening or a condition or even a feeling. This is one people get a little confused about. Because they think, oh, if I'm doing it right, I'll feel peace, which means I won't feel sad or angry. But those are kind of different layers. Like, like the concept of equanimity is like, I can feel peace while experiencing sadness or anger or fear. So that's a whole nother set of things to learn to accept.

And well, it's kind of like first there's the thoughts and those thoughts are trying to keep your feelings at bay. And if you can actually let, allow the thoughts to be there, then feelings start to show up. You're like, holy shit, what is this?

Then if you're gonna let the feelings go, they're like pieces, you know, underneath it all. Yeah. It's just like there's all this gripping and as you let go, let go, it's like you finally. Can like fall back into the piece that's kind of underlies it all.

The, the last, I wanna land in here in the next 5 minutes. The, the last thing though that we kind of haven't talked about is it relates to this idea. So I accept what's here today. The creative impulse shows up that I wanna launch, you know, 2 companies in marketing AI every year, and I'm excited about that. But then the first one fails and I'm really mad about it. And I wanna talk about this concept of attachment.

Mm-hmm.

And because I think it's really important to connect that, like, you accept, you can have a creative impulse, but then you have to let go of what's gonna happen. Ultimately you have to like let go of the attachment and, uh, to, to what's gonna land.

Yeah. In some way what you're really accepting is life, like the unfoldment of life as it is. Right. And so whether it's life now, I mean, it's always now, that's, there's a funny thing there, but like, you know, you imagine a future, um, and it's to your point, it's really easy to then fall into the trap of thinking that your peace and wellbeing depend on that future. So it's almost like you're pre-rejecting life, right? Like you're, you're, you're creating like a specific condition that life must meet for you to accept it, like preemptively. So there, it's your point. I think it's a really important point is that when you imagine the desired future state, it's important to hold it lightly so it doesn't just become another thing that gets in the way of you accepting reality as it is. Right. Because you can either, um, resist reality as it is now, or sort of preemptively resist reality if it's, if it doesn't meet your desired future in the future, which essentially is what attachment is. You're saying like, I'm going to decide right now that if life doesn't turn out exactly this way, I'm gonna resist it. And that's actually what creates the attachment is, is cuz it's like in order to feel peaceful, I think I need these, these conditions to arise versus, and what's nice is the more you can accept reality now, the easier it is to accept reality however it will be in the future. So there's a real connection when you're coming from resistance now, you're much more likely to be attached to the desired future because you think, ah, I don't like this feeling, but once I have that, I'll feel okay. But if we're like, oh, I feel—

we also try to control the now and that actually subverts your, like the, the example that comes up for me, the people who I think are the best in the world at this are professional athletes. You know, you'll watch, you'll watch two tennis players intensely. You watch football players killing each other and the game's over and, and they're like, Okay. We lost.

Yeah. It's done.

I mean, some might be crying or feeling something, but, but generally you find them to be next game, next play. That's the way they got, they, they gotta move on. Like, and, and, and they, it doesn't mean they didn't really wanna win.

Yeah.

But they weren't attached to winning cuz they know, I mean, literally they know like I, I, I might win or I might lose. And in tennis, for example, when you start really playing to win, you get focused on the outcome. Most tennis players play shitty. Yeah.

They, they, if you're overly, if you're, it's like over-functioning when you try to control. I like your, I think that was a really good way to say it. You're either trying to control the now, which obviously is impossible, or you're trying to control the future, which is a less effective strategy than envision it, see what impulses arise, follow your aliveness along the way. But anytime you're trying to control, it actually is less efficient and effective.

Um, and miserable.

And less enjoyable. There, because you, you alluded to sports, there's two. So the Roger Federer, I'm sure you've heard that, is he spoke at Dartmouth commencement.

Yeah.

And he was like, guys, what percentage of points do you think I won? He was the most winningest tennis player of all time, the GOAT. Yep. You know, you probably, you probably, do you know the answer?

Yep. That was 53 or 54%.

I think he said 54%. So he lost 46% of points in every match he ever played. That's almost 1 out of 2, right? And like, you can imagine if every point he was like, argh, it shouldn't be this way. You know, like, there's no way he would have been as effective. And he says this the other— there was a video I just watched by Novak Djokovic, and the interviewer says, you know, you have this gift of mental toughness. And he's like, I got to stop you right there. It is not a gift. He's like, I have worked tirelessly to learn. He literally says to accept the doubt, the fear, the, he's like, it's not about staying positive and not experiencing that stuff. That's right. It's about accepting the loss, accepting that I'm human, that I have doubt and fear, and then just more and more quickly returning to presence, which is exactly what, you know, I teach founders. And so I was very.

Reaffirming. That's awesome. I'm gonna send me that one. I mean, I saw the Federer one, but that's—

we'll put it in the show notes, both of them. They're really, I think they're really insightful.

Let's, let's end it there. I think the ability, I think it's not a gift.

It takes practice.

Yeah.

And it's worth it because acceptance will enable you to have success without suffering.

All right. See you next time. Thanks, Dave. Thank you.