Why Imagining Your Startup's Death Sets You Free

Hello and welcome to Heart of Entrepreneurship. This is Jesse Pujji and I'm here with my co-host, Dave Kashen.

Good morning.

My longtime coach and Heart of Entrepreneurship. Oh, Dave, you just said a good version of it. You want to say it again?

Yeah. Our intention for the Heart of Entrepreneurship is to give founders the inspiration and clarity to build startups from love and presence.

I love that. I got it. I got a topic that's been on my mind. It won't surprise you that I would love to talk about, and maybe we do a couple episodes on it. But before we do that, you said you went to a meditation retreat. You want to talk about it for a few minutes?

Oh, do I?

One word.

Recognition.

What'd you recognize?

Hmm, uh, I recognized, um, what's true.

If there— if there was like a before and after, like, you know, the weight loss ads that people have, what would the before and after of you before this meditation retreat and after this meditation retreat look like?

Uh, before, I felt like I was constantly searching for something. There was just like this underlying little bits of, um, dissatisfaction. Like, even though I've practiced being present for so long and I've had glimpses of like this deep sense of peace, but they haven't lasted. Um, and I feel like I got the clarity and sort of tools to come back to this place of like true sense of like everything is fundamentally okay and, um, wholeness.

Beautiful. Yeah, yeah. I think the— what's interesting, a lot of, a lot of Sikh scriptures, I didn't understand them, why they constantly talk about forgetting and remembering. And now I kind of like, oh, that's why you talk like— because I've like learned it in this sort of sideways fashion.

Uh, say more. What, what is it that you're forgetting and remembering?

Just like truth, like remembering true— like there's this— I've been going through a little bit of this, like, oh my gosh, like the God, the God in the sky and the personified God and how just like it's not helpful. And I was at this conference maybe a year or two ago, and some dude called himself an atheist. And I was like, well, Sikhism kind of believes like, I guess, pantheism, which is like God is in everything and it's just this one energy in life. And he's like, oh, never mind, I believe that.

I was like, the God of Spinoza.

What is it like? I heard someone refer to themselves as a spiritual atheist, which I thought was an interesting description.

Well, I think the word God has been.

Yeah.

Used in so many ways. Such that for many people, now for some people it's deeply meaningful, but for a lot of people the word is— it doesn't connect with something that feels true or, uh, yeah, like real to them. It feels like there's something you have to believe.

Yeah, I just have no charge around it. And like, I, I, you know, I, I don't know if you know, I'm a frequent buyer of things on the TikTok shop. I like once a week I buy something on the TikTok shop.

I did not know that.

I'm a digital marketing whatever. But I bought this thing that was like, I'll send it to you. It was like, you know, 365 Days of Like for Men, for God. And each page is like a different kind of like thing, but they're all Bible quotes. And, and I'm like, this is great. Like, I don't know the Bible, but like, yeah, you know, today's was about like pride and how like when you forget, you know, things are going great, you tend to forget God and be less thankful. And then there's these quotes that I've never heard before, but like, these all seem like great quotes to me. I just have no charge around any of it. Yeah. I was like, this is all good. This is all valuable.

Yeah, I think, you know, I've got to believe at their core every religion at least started with someone who saw a deeper truth about the nature of reality, and then lots of people who weren't seeing that truth who tried to interpret it in different ways. And then over time, it's like the telephone game.

Um, yeah, they said they would ask Buddha if he believed in God, he just picked a flower. And I was reading this book that was like, well, it was because he knew that no matter what he said, he couldn't do it justice.

And even if he could, that the second you heard it, you would misinterpret it in some way and then it would get, you know, well, you said this to me, I think, I think maybe from, from Sikhism like this, that the way they point to this notion is, is only by pointing to all that it's not. Yeah, which, you know, it's interesting, like, if I can connect that to, uh, something that I've, I've probably said to you, I've said to lots of clients in my book I'm writing, um, this notion of the Via Negativa, right? That it's not about attaining something that's not already here. It's not about, like— and that's how so many people tend to think about, you know, even devout seekers, like meditation, spirituality, is like, oh yeah, I've got to get awakened, I've got to get to enlightenment, as if it's like another goal to achieve. And, um, this really connected for me, this, like, it's, it's about seeing through all the things you believe now or perceive now that aren't actually true. And, um, I really like this, the letting go, not a, not a getting. Totally. Yeah, yeah. Letting— the only thing about letting go is it implies there's something to let go of. I like the word seeing through because it's like, you know, these things that are illusory, like you don't even need to let them go. Like even thoughts, like you don't actually have to stop thinking or let go of thoughts. You just have to see through the idea that like I am my thoughts or that the thoughts are things or they're real, you know, in some or solid or substantial in some ways.

So, um, one, one other thing, it's interesting, whenever I hear you, you know, and I obviously think you're very far down the path, you know, as it were, or whatever. So when you're like, oh, I used to have a doubt, or I used to not be— I used to be still, you know, I'm almost like, oh really? But then I also remember, and this is for everyone listening too, I think it's an important thing, is I've only— I only realized in arrears that I was like doing something-seeking behavior. Does that make sense? Like, it's only like after the meditation retreat where you're like, oh, I feel— then you look back and I don't even think at the time I realized maybe how much I was attached to something or striving, or I'm not doing that anymore. And then I look back and I go, oh yeah, I was doing that. And so it's kind of a funny— to me it's a funny process because you don't usually don't realize you were attached until you're not attached and then you're looking backwards.

Yeah, I mean, if we get just really simple about it, it seems to be true that— I don't know if we could say every human, but maybe every— or most humans, like, want to be happy. Like, all the things that we're doing are basically because we want to be happy. And so in some way, I think that's— that is seeking.

Sure.

And, and in some way, I think like at some level we recognize there is some fundamental peace or contentment or happiness that is inherent, and then we, um, you know, we get confused about our nature. And so then we try to— like, we feel this dissatisfaction that comes with— I like the word wholeness. I'll just say like not feeling whole because we're not connected with our wholeness. Right? Because just being a separate self inherently feels like we're not whole, we're partial, we're separate. Um, and then we try to fill in that void and get to wholeness with all these worldly pursuits like founding companies and making money and, um, and even having impact on the world, ironically, like, which is, which is wonderful and useful and if you're coming from a certain place, it won't— it's even all having all the impact you could possibly imagine won't have you have that sense of wholeness if you're coming from a, you know, a perception that who you are is not already whole, right?

All right, that's—

it's—

this is a good segue actually into my topic, which, um, we— I think we had a bunch of podcasts in April and then I think both of us were on spring break. And then, you know, the days after spring break were— there was a huge tragedy, which is that, you know, Casey Kelly passed away. She was the CEO of one of the businesses I heard I started. She was a client of yours. Her and I have the same birthday, which is going to be this Saturday. And I mean, I want to honor her first, you know, and just tell the world how much I love her and loved her and just how amazing of a person she is and was. But it's— I've been thinking about when you and I were going to talk again, and it's just— it's May now. It's end of May. Like, I want to talk about death.

You know, and, and yeah, usual subject for a founder startup, startup podcast, you know.

Yeah, I mean, it's not something you talk about, but gosh, I think I, I love the— she was a founder and she was running a business and, and, you know, and, and, you know, again, for— it's public information, she, she passed away in a tragic accident. It was a car accident. She woke up that morning and She was texting me the day before and she didn't have time to say goodbye to anyone. And just like anything at a resort, one of these open-air buses, it just rolled on her and fuck, it's like one of the saddest, most frustrating things. And it can happen to any of us at any time. And we don't live our lives like that. And if there's one thing from her, it's like she lived her life, she lived it up, you know, she lived a full life. But I don't know, I think it's like, what are the lessons? I don't know, let's talk about death. What are the lessons? What are the, you know, yeah, how can this serve us and everybody else that we're wanting to serve?

So first, as you bring up Casey and her death, I notice sadness. I just want to name the, yeah, the grief of losing her and I love this notion that grief is the highest form of honoring something that we love or loved and lost. I just wanna honor that love for her and the bright light that she was. And just what a beautiful person and mother and friend and—

All the things.

Leader. And for anyone listening who's lost someone, just, Yeah, just welcome that grief, like how normal and natural and appropriate and healthy it is to grieve that which we've lost. Uh, and I think there's a way in which not wanting to grieve and not wanting to feel sadness is part of what has us, um, not want to think about death. And, uh, I may have mentioned this before, Diana Chapman, who's one of my dearest friends and mentors, the founder, one of the founders of Conscious Leadership Group, she said something to me that really just reframed grief and heartbreak. She said, let your heart break open. Right, because of course, you know, of course it's a colloquial term. Like, your heart doesn't actually— gratefully, it doesn't break, um, but it feels that way, right? And right, it's like this, oh God, you know, it feels so intense. It can feel so intense and right around your heart. And, um, yeah, I just think there's something beautiful about that recognition that heartbreak breaks your heart open, you know. It's, it's a, it's a breaking open, and it literally expands your capacity to love, to feel love, to let love flow. And I think that's, um, one of the values of, um, facing death is that you don't have to wait until someone actually dies to expand your capacity to love and to, um, recognize the preciousness of life. It's funny, I just got home last night and I saw this morning my wife had put out this little quote that I don't know where it was, like hiding somewhere. And it was something like, um, like You just have this life to do everything you're ever going to do in this life, you know? So like, do it. Um, so I think we, especially in the Western world, we have this tendency to, um, deny, avoid, push away. Like, we don't want to think about death because it, um, one, it breaks our heart, and two, it terrifies us. Yeah, you know, especially again, um, most people in the Western world who have the perception that we are a separate, you know, self, and that's kind of all, all we are, and that's what we are, which is born and then lives for some number of years and then dies. Um, that sense of impermanence Uh, and the sense of like going from being something to being nothing, I think, is really scary, like terrifying for people. So in addition to not wanting to face the heartbreak, we don't want to be with that fear or terror. And, uh, I think when you And it's interesting because this, this notion of being with heartbreak, sadness, grief, as well as, you know, fear, terror, is very relevant for founders and everyone beyond just the topic of death. But I think it comes up in, you know, in some ways the most extreme version of it. Um, but I think if you really look, if you, um, one of the things they said in this retreat that I think I can share that I just love this frame, was that if you meet your emotions with, let's just call it, um, openness, awareness, love, welcoming, you know, and Joe Hudson talks about that a lot, you know, welcoming your feelings, welcoming your emotions. It's like, um, I'll just use the word love, you know, love. If you love your feelings, love is like a womb for your feelings. So a lot of our feelings are like these, like, emotional children. They're like these immature feelings. Um, it's like, like, if you think of, you know, if you think about a feeling, it, it is sort of like a ball of sensation and energy. That's actually what it is, right? Like, how would you know you're feeling something other than feeling that sensation in your body and that, that, like, energy? So if you think about it, like, as for most of us, it's a pretty childish version of it. It's like this little, like, oh, this fear that we never really fully allowed, and so it never really got to, like, grow up, you know. Um, and, you know, and like in IFS work and parts work, you talk a lot about, like, there's, like, parts of us that never got to grow up. So they're, they're valuable parts, but they haven't matured into their highest potential. But you could think about that with feelings. So fear, terror, for most of us, is like this immature kind of, you know, energy that, um, you know, in the, in the womb of love, in the womb of just like welcoming or just, you know, spacious awareness, it can mature into like the highest form of that energy. And, um, so for me, when I just feel into that, there's like a There's like an alertness, like, you know, if you think about if you're walking at the edge of the cliff, you know, or the reason like people love to go rock climbing and do all these adventure sports is because it forces you into presence. Right, right.

You have to be there.

You have to. And it's fear that does. So in some way, like the mature version of fear is just like, like, be here, like be fully here now, pay attention.

Right.

So what's kind of cool about connecting these, you know, people talk a lot about, you know, that there's like cliché, right? Like, you know, death makes life precious. And, um, and it does. And one of the ways it can do that, like facing death and feeling the fear and terror of death and allowing that to mature, can, can literally just be this energy of like, whoa, I'm gonna like, you know, like we probably all have those moments where like colors look more, you know, life in Technicolor look more vivid, like Well, even the week that Casey passed, I would go outside with my wife and we were like, this is like, everything looks like it's in HD.

And we definitely experienced that perspective and presence and it didn't feel like a lot of other things mattered. What, you know, I want to tie that what you said about being present. You know, there's a sort of famous, again, cliché of like on your deathbed, no one says I wanted to wish I worked harder. No one says this. No one says that. That. And I think we all read it and you send it to someone, you're like, yeah, love our people. And yet, you know, you coach unicorn founders building businesses here. How do you reconcile, like, how do we reconcile those two things? And, uh, yeah, how do you reconcile those two things?

Oh, there's a few thoughts coming up. First is, um, you'll, you'll, I'll weave this in. Uh, there's something Joe Hudson wrote the other day that I thought was really insightful. He said, you know, a lot of people ask him like, how, how do I let go of like these patterns? You know, so let's just say one of these patterns is workaholism or something like that. And, um, you know, how do I let go of these like habits and patterns that I don't want anymore? And he said, um, how do you let go of a hot frying pan?

Right.

It's like, ah, right? Yeah, it doesn't take effort to let go of a hot frying pan if you feel— so, so the issue is that we've not— we've sort of numbed ourselves or refused to face the pain and cost of our habits and behaviors. And, um, so this part of the answer is if you really face like the the pain, the cost of your habits and behaviors, if you really let yourself face it, you'll likely shift. So, so it— and I'm, and I'm not saying this to say that nobody should work a lot of hours or build unicorn companies. I'm going to get to that. But if you are, um, if you sort of know, like, you don't— it's not authentic, you don't even really want to do it, you're doing it to prove something or from, you know, you're stressed out, you're never present with your family or your loved ones, or you're not healthy, like all those things, you're just, you're probably not really facing the cost. And I was thinking about this last night because I just finished this meditation retreat and I'm in the airport and, you know, there's some like yummy unhealthy food in the airport, you know? And this meditation retreat was all vegetarian. So like I'm sort of craving like some, you know, I don't know, snacks, unhealthy snacks. And I was thinking about this, um, I was like, God, it's like, like, I'm, you know, even in the state of presence, like, there's this like craving for like, uh, you know, something that I know literally right after I eat it, I'm gonna be like, damn, you know, like I shouldn't have eaten it. And then my body's gonna, you know, sugar's gonna— let's just take, you know, like a sweet snack. My sugar is going to spike and then I'm gonna crash, I'm gonna feel bad. I'm like Um, and I let myself like really face like not just the delight of that, you know, 10 seconds of like ingesting the thing, but then all the like how I would feel after, and then like having to whatever exercise more to lose the weight. I just, you know, it burns.

It's like when someone has a heart attack at 42, you know, they, they immediately have to face the consequences of let's say they're an unhealthy eater, and then they kind of It's like dropping the frying pan sometimes, and sometimes they don't.

They still ignore it somehow, amazingly. So anyway, I, I just— it was just— it's very fresh for me because I like— there was a way all the things that I tried to do prior to like, I don't know, maybe, you know, guilt myself or shame myself or commit— I'm just gonna commit and not do it, you know, not eat the— no sweets, you know, like they work temporarily But it was interesting to me, like, when I really, really faced the, like, oh, like, yuck, I don't want to feel that, like, bit of shame, guilt afterwards, and then, like, the sugars, like, and then it was like, no, of course I'm not gonna eat that. Like, that would be so sick for a second of joy or whatever, dopamine. I'm gonna, like— and I could have had— I don't know, I never had that. Like, I never— it wasn't— I've had that thought before, but I never fully let myself, like, feel the disgust and the, like, all the, you know, stuff after. So all that is to say, um, I think a lot of people, a lot of founders, are operating in a way that they know isn't good for them, that they know is not sustainable, that they might, you know, they feel like soulless, or at least out of integrity with, like, their truth, and they're ignoring the pain and cost of it. So first invitation is to just Um, especially, right, like, what are you gonna do with your one wild and precious life? Right, right. Mary Oliver says, like, and again, that is the, the value sometimes of really thinking, I am going to die someday, and that day could be tomorrow. Like, is this how I want to, you know, live my life? Um, and I think the first, for a lot of people, that thought isn't sufficient. It's, it's useful, but it's not like I I've had that thought many times, and then I kept doing the same. It's like, yeah, that's true, but whatever, I'll change later. I'll, you know, once I have the money, then I'll do the things I really want to do, you know. Um, and there— and it's a funny dance because, you know, there's obviously extreme ways you could live as if you're going to die tomorrow that would not be healthy and good for you, right? In some ways, like, well, why wouldn't I just eat whatever I want if I'm gonna die tomorrow? And yeah, that's not, you know— but, um, okay. So the second thing I wanted to say that, that is related is, um, and it, you know, we talked on, on a previous episode, we were, uh, about this intention also of inspiring and clarifying for people how to be successful without suffering, right? How to, how to have success without suffering. And so I think there is a widespread belief that, um, limiting belief that trade-offs are required, that you can't have it all. Like, I just think if we really look around, it's a— it's like pervasive in our culture. You can't have it all. You, you know, you could crush yourself and be successful, you, you know, or you could have a nice lifestyle and a nice family. You could, right? And, um, it's interesting because of course there's some— I don't even know how to say it. I don't— I'm— you could go too far into like magical Pollyanna thinking, right? Of like, I'll just set my intentions and I'll just spend my day hanging at the beach and somehow a startup will appear. No, of course not, right? There does seem to be some ways in which, you know, there's cause and effect. And, um, at least, at least apparently, we, you know, we do stuff and it causes, you know, things to be built. So What I do think is really valuable is to look at, like, even when I ask clients, like, what do you really want? And they struggle to answer the question, right? Like, 8 times out of 10, if I'm like, okay, wait, hold on, if there's no limits and you could just have it all, then what would you really want? And they're like, oh, okay, if I could have it all, then I'd want, uh, you know, billion-dollar business and to work, you know, 40 hours a week and have a wonderful family and blah blah. I'm like, so you know what you really want, you just don't believe it's possible, right? And so I, I just believe it's possible. Like, I believe you can have it all. And, um, hopefully, you know, if you're building a startup to achieve some mission and impact people's lives in a way that you care about, um, and maybe that means you know, to make money for your family, and that's the impact. Like, I'm not— it doesn't have to be like mission-driven in a traditional sense, although more and more I'm starting to wonder if it's not, kind of why bother? Um, but you could, you know, then like there becomes a blurring of work and play and life, you know, it's like, what are you doing?

Well, I think the— I think it's interesting, you know, the to go back to the original question that we were talking about is like, okay, again, on your deathbed, okay, you can die tomorrow. Yeah, next week. You could die in 40 years and be on your deathbed and regret that you just let your life pass you by and that there's again, this, this typical thing. And, and again, post Casey's death, this has come really into focus for me because I'm like, well, hold on, you know, the question is like, well, why don't I spend I should spend all my day with my family. I should pick up my kids every day from school. I should drop them off. I should, you know, blah, blah, blah, because that's what matters. And I think it's easy to convince yourself. I think that's a fear response also, I guess, is kind of what I'm saying, or it can be a fear response. And even like this idea that you said it earlier, and I wanted to— it's like, hey, you have one day to live, Dave. Okay, well, I should just drop everything, call friends, eat whatever I want. And like, even that in some sense is a fear response. And I was I was reading this, I was reading this, I don't know where I saw this. I was listening to a podcast and it was like, it's a little bit of the classic thing that we all do, content versus context, or what I would say is what versus how. So when we, when we're typically, hey, if you knew you had a week to live, you, most people answer the question in a what fashion, meaning they go, well, I would, I would go, go to go on a roller coaster and then I would, you know, this and I would, and it's all content. It's all what. And I think the book I was reading, the thing was like, no, no, hold on. If you knew you were going to die in a week, you would just be like, Wow, look at the leaves. You would almost, you know, or say you knew you had an hour to live.

Sacred. It would make—

yeah, exactly. Would you truly, you know, stuff your mouth with a steak, or would you actually just go, yeah, it's true, I'm gonna slow my breath down right now and I'm gonna really be here? And so for me, one of the conclusions of it is, I mean, there's a couple pieces of this, but one is the how is actually the really like Are you, are you cherishing every moment you have? And moments are— some are with your kids and some are at work and some are driving. And are you able to cherish the aliveness that actually exists inside of you? And then the second thing is this, again, to your point, being true to what you want. And I think it's the case that not— some people may just want to spend all their time with their family and like, I'm not one of them. I like to spend a couple, 2 or 3 high-quality hours with my family every day.

Yeah.

And vacations on the weekends. And I do, but I like coming here and dealing with founders. And I like, you know, like I'm enjoying it.

Totally.

Part of me being alive and it's not, so it's such a nuanced thing, but I think it's, yeah.

Anyway. I think it's a really important point because it's almost like the backlash to the, what is it? 996 or like hustle culture is like, You should value, you know, you should prioritize family or play, or as if there's like a right way to live. And I remember years ago, my kids were little, you know, I was talking to a coach and I was like, yeah, I told my son like, you know, daddy has to work right now. And she's like, bullshit. I was like, what do you mean? She's like, you don't have to work. You're choosing to work instead of spend time with him. She's like, don't lie to him. I was like, whoa. And after that, and I actually really saw how that's useful to own it. Like, yeah, I'm like, it's not more righteous to spend time with my kids than it is to work when what I really want is to work. Then I'll be like half present with, you know, then it's just like, it's just not true. It's not authentic. It's like someone's like, here, I got you this gift because I felt like I should get you a gift. I was like, "Ew, that doesn't feel like a gift." So, yeah, I think you're pointing to it's about living from your truth. It's like, where are you coming from in choosing how to spend your time? And I think most people where they're coming from is a lack of clarity about their own authentic wants. And it's much more with how they should— they think they should spend their time or some, some like, if then, like, well, I have— if I, if I can do this, achieve this thing, then I'll feel happy, then I'll, you know, versus get it again. That's why I think it's so powerful to connect with this place of wholeness where it's like there's nothing missing. And then it's like, oh, I just, I'll just spend my time the way I spend my time, you know, the way I want to, not in order to try to get to some state of happiness in the future.

Yeah, so what— so with the last 10 or so minutes we have here, so if you— let's— this is going to be a fun, a fun little—

there is a poem I want. Can I read a poem real quick before you do your thing? I just love this. Um, this is one of my favorite poems on this topic. It's by Jeff Foster. It's called "You Will Lose Everything." It sounds kind of morbid. Well, yeah, we're talking about death. Uh, you will lose everything Your money, your power, your fame, your success, perhaps even your memories. Your looks will go, loved ones will die, your body will fall apart. Everything that seems permanent is impermanent and will be smashed. Experience will gradually, or not so gradually, strip away everything that it can strip away. Waking up means facing this reality with open eyes and no longer turning away. But right now we stand on sacred and holy ground, for that which will be lost has not yet been lost. And realizing this is the key to unspeakable joy. Whoever or whatever is in your life right now has not yet been taken away from you. This may sound trivial, obvious, like nothing, but really it is the key to everything— the why and how and wherefore of existence. Impermanence has already rendered everything and ever everyone around you so deeply holy and significant and worthy of your heartbreaking gratitude. Loss has already transfigured your life into an altar.

It's beautiful. I love that. Well, it's a great lead into what I wanted to do. Oh good, use the poem, which is again, it's, it's sort of this trite phrase of like, let's live every day like it's your last. And again, I think the image that tends to get conjured up is I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna hug you, but I'm gonna go, I don't know, jump off a cliff. I'm gonna do all these things. Yeah, yeah. Versus, versus living in that form of presence, or, or the how version of it, which is cherishing the moments. It's kind of the thing you said at the end of the poem, the altar. Like, so what's the founder's guide?

Let's put it— okay.

101 Guide to Actually Living Like Every Day Is Your Last.

Ooh, I like that. Real quick, I did— I'm gonna get into that. I wanna— I just had this memory of my 14-year-old son who's just extra— both my sons are extraordinary. Um, my 14-year-old says to me one day, he's like, he's like, Dad, he's like, I have this thought every now and then that like, what if this was the last time I was ever gonna see this person? He's like, and then I just think, like, what would I want to say to them if it's like the last time I was ever going to see them? And I try to be really, you know, like, I don't think he used the word thoughtful, but like thoughtful about what I say. Because like, what if it's the last time? And I think that like, it's interesting that that was just like natural for him. And I mean, he tells, I mean, I guess a lot of kids do this, but like every time we're leaving each other, he's really— I think he has this in mind because he's like, Dad, I love you. Like, he's, he's really, um, consistent about letting me know he loves me. I think at some level, he, for some reason, he thinks about just naturally like, what if it's the last time I'm, you know, gonna see you? Which again is like exactly to this point. So I— so let's take a, a lesson from Brody. Like, I think there's like— that's kind of a cool practical Like if this was the last time you were gonna see this team member for, you know, God forbid, you know, for whatever reason, like, yeah. How do you wanna talk to them? What do you wanna say to them? Right. I, I think that's actually an interesting, um, that feels like a really useful rubric. Um, what's interesting about your question, so Founder's Guide to, to Incorporating Death.

Say it. Live your every day like it's your last.

Live it. Thank you. Founder's Guide to Living Every Day as if It's Your Last.

I mean, I think one of them, you wouldn't have any unspoken conversations, but both gratitude and maybe even the opposite of grat— like things that you wanted to just feedback.

Yeah. Um, I'm this, this first thought that's coming to me, Founder's Guide to Living Every Day as if It's Your Last, is, um, we haven't talked about explicitly, but I think it's a good time to talk about it, is startup death. So I think that one of the things that keeps a founder from living every day as if it's their last, or like showing up in the way that they would want to if it was their last day, um, is this, uh, fear, even terror of startup death. Um, and in some way it's very similar conversation around not wanting to face the possi— well, yeah, not wanting to face death, basically. Like, if most founders— well, some founders think about it all the time, but not in a, like, intentional way. Like, their, their thoughts just, like, pop of, like, oh, I'm gonna fail, it's gonna be terrible. But yeah, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about, like, a very intentional, like, almost ritual of like imagining your startup dying. I think of it a little like taking the boogeyman out of the closet, right? It's like in the closet, it's really scary. But then you like turn the lights on and you're like, oh, it's, it's, you know, it's a mop. So I think there's something to— first, there's the like, if you really imagine your startup totally failing, bankruptcy, imagine emailing your investors, I lost all, you know, all of your money, you know, including maybe friends and family, right? All of your team members, hey, we're closing down the company, you know, media reports, right? That you read about, you know, your startup failing.

Yeah, reputation.

All of it. It's pretty scary for most people, most founders. And there'll be tons of thoughts typically about the implications of that. Oh, I'll never get another thing. And I won't even like, I'll be a pariah, maybe even like social risk. Like people won't wanna hang out with me anymore. Or like, there's all these thoughts that arise, these fear-based thoughts that from most, from my experience, from tons and tons of clients who failed, 99.999% of those thoughts are not true.

Right.

So if you talk to founders who've actually failed, even like complete bankruptcy, most of them are like, oh, I learned so much. You know, it's so cliché, but that's actually what they say. And like, oh, my investors are backing me again because they appreciated the way I handled the failure or the way, you know, whatever. Like, and gratefully, we live in an ecosystem that actually does reward risk-taking such that failure is not viewed as a black mark or, you know, scarlet letter. It's like Wow, you went for it. You must have learned a lot. You'll probably be more successful this time.

Right.

Um, now, not that we want to fail, right? Obviously, you're going to play to win. But my point in all this is I think there's a real interesting corollary here in, um, really feeling the fear, even terror, you know, like the— in that womb, right? Like, let it, let it mature into this, like, wow, I really care about this thing. And I really like— and like presence to like show up the way you want to show up as your best self and inspire other people to be their— others to be their best selves. And it's not— the cool thing is I don't think it's even— it's not like a mental hack you have to do. If you actually feel the fear and like really envision your startup failing and feel that fear and the fear is allowed to mature, just feeling into it. Yeah, it just becomes this like sort of intense, like, want to— well, it could be gratitude too, for like, I get to do this. That shows up for a lot of people. Like, right now it's not dead, and like, I get to do this. Like, you know, like, just to build something from nothing. But also, I think it can, it can, you know, everyone have their own experience, but feel like this intense desire to be your best, to do your best, which is a beautiful thing.

Like, well, it's like, I mean, it's like the poem, right? Which I think is just like, if you, once you realize everything will go away, then the fact that it's here now is all just, yeah, just a gift.

Like, I don't know, I, I, for some reason I was just thinking about like, you know, whatever, Michael Jordan, you know, 5 seconds left in the game, It's like, what allows some people, you know, and they're down by 2 and he makes that 3, right? Like some humans in those kind of moments to like rise, not that he made every shot, right? There's a great Nike ad, like I missed, blah, blah, blah. But like to sort of rise to the occasion in some way, like every moment of startup could be like that. It's like, could you just rise to the occasion of possible loss and just do your best and like have it galvanize you to bring your best? Say again what you were saying.

Well, I think we should end there.

Okay.

And make it a cliffhanger. We'll all, we'll think about and work on the Founder's Guide to Living.

I like it.

Your last, every day like it's your last.

Beautiful. Thanks for the topic. I think it was a really rich and important discussion.

Yeah. And I think we'll, we'll do part 2 next week because I think there's so much more in it that I have a lot of, a lot of questions.

I have one, one other thought maybe to leave people with is there's something coming up for me around just like death reminds us of our humanity. And I think business— I'm trying to think of a pithy way to say this— business obscures our humanity. And so that is one— probably something in the guide would be like, remember, we're just a bunch of humans, right? What is a company? It's just a bunch of humans. And I think, remember, there's something about just like, just clicking into that brings you more into your heart and, um, I think would invite you to show up more the way you want to.

Yeah, and it would shift the journey.

To be continued.

Thank you, Dave.

All right, thanks, Jesse.