Why the Smartest Founders Stopped Trusting Their Brain

Hello and welcome to Heart of Entrepreneurship. I am your host, Jesse Pujji, and with my co-host Dave Kashen.

Good morning.

Hey Dave. Um, this show is called Heart of Entrepreneurship because Dave, uh, who coaches unicorn founders and I, who am an entrepreneur and I guess other stuff now soon, which I haven't announced yet, um, we want to stand for being able to build businesses Success does not require suffering. That's the tagline of this pod. And Dave has been my coach for almost 10 years now, which is kind of crazy. And we've been through a whole journey together around— I describe myself as deeply suffering despite a lot of success when Dave met me, and now more success but much less suffering.

And it's living proof.

Living proof.

You can have more and more success with less and less suffering.

Yeah. And so today, you know, we talked in the last few weeks, I think we came up with this topic and I'll— let me tee it up a couple of different ways. So, so one is, I think, you know this about me, Dave, but I— my senior year of high school, I was one of the top 100 national debaters. I was like, man, you give me any argument I could. And I didn't realize later on, this is like a thing of a Gemini. Like, I could argue my side. I could, like, know your side better than you argue your side. Like, you know, and I think for most of my life, probably also because of my dad, I was like, you know, just convinced, like, logic, reason, intellect, being intellectual, there was a right answer and a wrong answer. And that was very, very true. And, you know, enters in— enter my wife, who's a Pisces and who has been, you know, she's very emotional, very intuitive person. And the funny story I'll tell about this is like, We, we, uh, at my first company we had, uh, we were like, our tech stack was getting to a certain place. We needed to find like the killer CTO. We found this guy and he was like perfect. He interviewed perfectly. He was technical, could get his hands dirty. He knew Facebook ads and social. And we extended him an offer. He's like, I'm in, I'm joining. And then we had a little like happy hour and I was like, oh, D, why don't you come? And, uh, you know, she, she meets him, we shake hands, whatever. And then I'm driving home, like, what'd you think of him? You know? And she's like, I don't know, I just got a weird feeling. And I'm like, what are you saying? She's like, I, I can't, I don't know, Jesse, I just, I just got a weird feeling. And I would like get kind of frustrated when she said that.

He's like, explain it to me, what's the logic? What do you mean?

What do you, what, like, do you think he's dishonest? Do you like, like And she's like, I can't tell you that, Jesse. I just, I just got a weird feeling. So that was Thursday. Monday, the guy is supposed to start. And it was, it was like, uh, there's like an episode of Entourage like this, but it's like 9 o'clock. He's like, he's not there. We're like, oh, maybe he's just a late guy, you know, whatever. Like 9:45, he's not there. 10:30, and we call, calling him, are you okay? You know, it's like, it's his first day as the CTO of the company.

Yeah.

1 o'clock, We get an email from him reneging on the offer.

Wow.

And by the way, at the time I still didn't have enough sense. I was like, I was like, you jinxed this.

It was your fault.

I was like, it's your fault that he didn't show up. But, but consistently, I mean, I can't tell you the number of times throughout my Ampush journey in particular where my wife would meet someone, she would say something similar and something like that. There was, we had a challenging salesperson who we had to like, like She would just, she just had this other intelligence. And you know, I think in my last few years of spiritual journey, I've started, I like, I've started to open that part up a little bit and I'm like, whoa, this is like a sixth sense. Like I can't, you know, and mine's still, you know, baby relative to I think hers, but like, so anyway, that's the, that's the tee off I think, which is, which is the topic of today's thing is, is sort of, uh, beyond the intellect, brain intelligence. Yeah. Or versus like a different, there's other forms of intelligence. Yeah. And, and by the way, I would say fast forward to today for me with all like the spiritual work I've done and meditation and breathwork and all this stuff, like I now view the brain as a, actually like a really limited, uh, organ. Like it's very important. It's very helpful, but it has these certain limitations, which, which I've like found my life to become part of, part of having success, you know, with less suffering, I think is, is using that intelligence and tapping into it. And trusting it. And yeah, I think I've told this story on this pod before, but when I decided to start Ambush, I left Goldman Sachs and this guy at Citadel really wanted me to work there. And he literally like sent me like a ridiculous offer overnight. He's like, you're overcorrecting. Don't do a startup, Jesse. Come work in finance. Like, I remember interviewing you 2 years ago and I told Nick, my co-founder, I was like, dude, this guy's making me almost like a million dollar a year offer. I can't take— I can't do the startup. And then that next morning, I remember waking up in that half-sleep state and feeling like nauseous at the thought of like getting another like card and going through an orientation.

And I, again, I didn't know it at that time, but like selling your soul.

I didn't know what it was, but I was like, it just, I can't do, I gotta go start this company. And so I know like in retrospect it's been guiding me always, but like, I don't know that I've, you know, fully appreciated. And I think most founders are very heady. In general.

I love— there's something really simple and important about— you just said like, oh, the brain is an organ, you know, a limited organ. And I was listening to something, I think it was by Adyashanti yesterday, uh, and he said the heart beats and the brain thinks. I just love— I usually say like the heart pumps blood and, and the the mind pumps thoughts, but like, there's just something really useful about recognizing that. Like, we're not constantly paying attention, like, oh my God, our heart, our heartbeat again. Oh look, more blood pumping through. But there's something about the, the nature of thoughts that's so magnetic that every time our brain pumps out a thought, like, we, we tend to, at least by default, give it all of our attention.

You know, in part because I think we can identify as maximum, we give it truth. Oh, whatever my brain is saying is true, right? Through about the world, it's true about what I feel, it's true about versus what I should do, what I shouldn't do.

Yeah. And I like what you say, the brain is a limited organ, and it's, um, you know, the brain, the intellect, like, I think it, it's The way we've evolved to be human, it's like we have these different parts of our brain. If you look at the structure of the brain, there's sort of like this reptilian brain, amygdala, right? Then there's this kind of mammalian brain, which is more about connection and belonging. And then there's this prefrontal cortex, like human thing, which is like the ability to have like metacognition and think about thinking. Um, imagine things. And it's a really odd experience being human, having all these different sort of parts of our brain. And the— I say the preponderance of the brain is concerned with survival. So I think that's just worth as like a ground sort of foundational idea, really recognizing that the, the intellect, the brain, is primarily concerned with survival, which makes sense because for hundreds of thousands of years that was the main concern.

And, um, and even like, I think the body— I mean, humans were designed to survive, period. We weren't actually designed necessarily for pleasure or for like thriving, right? Yeah, we were designed like stay alive, procreate. I mean, every animal was just like— there's this kind of a funny Somewhat side— not really a sidebar, like this idea that we, you know, again, trusting the brain. Like, I think we can only see 5% of the color spectrum or the spectrum of light, something like that. And there's this— there's flies as an example. It can only see one color, and that's the color of its food, or two colors, the color of its food and the color of its mate. It doesn't see any other colors. And so today there's only two colors in the world, and that's reality. Yeah, for us, we think this is reality, but the truth is We, we only, we sense a very tiny piece of all of it with this brain and, and this contraption that we're nervous system.

And yeah, and like, like bees can see UV light, which is everywhere, but we can't see it, right? So yeah, it's, it's, it's not a big leap to recognize that we are not experiencing reality. We're experiencing a tiny fraction of all that's here.

We're designed to our brain survive and procreate.

Yeah, and really we're the first, you know, if you think about evolution, like we're the first species to even have the opportunity to go beyond that, right? Like, like I don't think any other species can imagine something that doesn't exist, right? Like we're uniquely creative beings and, and that's why we have civilization, and then we invented language and that allowed us to coordinate in a way that no other species ever has at this scale. So What's wild is that's true, but that's also like sort of just a small part of our brain, and most of our brain is concerned with survival, and, you know, specifically physical survival. Um, there's lots of studies that show that like threats to our social status register to our brain identically as threats to our physical survival. So we're just— our, our intellectual mind is constantly triggered and basically focused on survival. And if you think about, um, well, and I think miscalibrated. I think we've talked about this before, but I think it's a really important point that will speak to why it's so important to go beyond the intellect. I think our intellect and our, our thoughts, our, yeah, brain is like fundamentally miscalibrated to the world that we live in. Um, because I think biological evolution is, is relatively slow, and so we have the brain, you know, of our ancestors from, you know, call it whatever, 50,000, 100,000 years ago, in which basically it was, you know, lions, tigers, and bears, and, you know, concern for survival. Um, and so I, I don't think that our, uh, yeah, if you think about like the level of safety that we actually have. And, and the risk of our physical survival is, um, the threat to our physical survival is like, you know, threat level 1, but our brain is operating as if it's threat level 10, you know, something like that. And so I think recognizing that is important because most people, like, just like you said, just take their thoughts as the truth and live these very limited lives Because again, if your intellect wants you to survive, everything you've done up until now hasn't killed you. So really all it wants is for you to do the same stuff. And it's very crafty. You know, this is part of the creativity in finding all sorts of ways to stop you from trying new things. You're not good enough. You know, what if this happens? What if that happens? What will people think of you? What will they say if you don't conform? Right.

Um, yeah, and that's like the types of thoughts the brain actually comes up with, or can be. If you believe it's truth because it can— it's a good calculator— you also believe it's truth when it tells you you're not enough.

Yeah. What—

and take a step back really quick, Dave. So let's take a— just if I'm listening to this and I go, okay, there's an intellect, the brain, what are the other types of intelligences? Just take a step back and then, and then I want to play a skeptical founder. Prove to me, or how can I prove that what you're saying is actually true? I know my brain intelligence is true. I know that I can think through a problem. Nobody has to convince me of that. So first of all, what are the other types of intelligences? And then how could I prove to myself that, that what you're saying is true and real?

So I think a really simple way of thinking about it is like head, heart, gut. So the head, you know, is the one we were talking about, sort of the intellect that thinks. Um, the heart, uh, tends to be more of our emotional intelligence center, but also like the center of desire. Um, and it's, you know, it's often what's really happening is like the heart wants something and then the, the, the head goes to work to figure out how to get it, or goes to work trying to convince you you don't really want it because it's scary or risky, um, like love.

Or what's that saying, that we make emotional decisions and then we want an intellectual alibi, or we want a rational alibi?

Yes, and that's proven. I mean, there, there's, uh, I think we talked about at one point, you know, people who've had brain injuries and that, um, caused them to be unable to feel, and they can't make decisions. Like, if you can't feel— I mean, they literally, like, what color pen to write with is like a multi-hour decision. Um, so yeah, we actually make emotional decisions, and then like you said, we intellectualize them. So that's important to recognize too, because if you think you're really just intellectual, even that is just a, you know, falsehood. Um, and there's, uh, Joe Hudson says something I really appreciated, that if you're, um, following your— like, what your head wants, it tends to require a lot of effort and discipline. But to follow what your heart wants is effortless. I think that's worth— so to your question about, like, how do we know, that's worth experimenting with. And I, I challenge— and we'll go to the gut in a second— but I really challenge my clients to follow their heart, tune into their heart. What does your heart want here? What does your heart say? And even something as simple as like, I want to exercise regularly. If that's like an intellectual, I know I should exercise, I'll be like, well, what does your heart want around this? And they might be like, I just want to play and have fun. Oh, what does that look like? Oh, maybe I'll join a tennis league or I'll do— It's like suddenly it's not like they're having to discipline and grit their way to do the thing they think they should do. It's just like, you know, they just follow their natural wants, right? It doesn't take a lot of effort.

Something I'll oftentimes say around the heart to founders especially is, well, like, why did you choose to start this business? Because, and some, you know, there's 20% who truly intellectually like made a grid and were like, well, this is the optimal business idea, but most people, the business they started there was a problem that got— that was not an intel— like, it wasn't necessarily a peer problem, it was a here problem.

Yeah.

You know, or it was a something that they cared about or it mattered to them, drew them in, and that those were not— it wasn't that they ran a, you know, some sort of an expected value calculation. Again, there was probably 20% who do, do that. Yeah. But, but 80% who are like, oh, well, I thought this was a cool thing, and I go, oh, well, that— so that wasn't your head, right? That was, that was your heart.

Well, and arguably the most important, if at least one of the most important decisions you make is who to partner with. Like, let's say you're, you know, if you're married or— and it's pretty clear that's not an intellectual choice. Although again, there's probably 20% of people who try to like make the checklist and see if the person, which I find doesn't work very well. So like the, the decisions that actually make the biggest difference in your well-being i.e., who to partner with. At least I can't think of a single example. Everyone I know who is really happy in their relationship, they just knew. So what does that mean? There's some sense of like, they just knew. So what does that mean? It wasn't like, let me do a pros and cons list and really think about, is this the right? So what is that just knew feeling? And frankly, a lot of founders when they make decisions.

Uh, I get—

maybe we could talk about gut here. So head, heart, gut. So gut is—

just quickly before, like, so yeah, what is the nature of the head intelligence, the nature of the heart intelligence, the nature of the gut intelligence? And then—

so gut— so first of all, they are— I think it's useful to think of it as physical locations in the body. Um, like, we tend to associate thinking with our head Now, that's actually not really true, but that just tends to— like, like, if you want to know, like, I'll ask clients, okay, hold on, what does your head want? Because I don't want to, um, overly discount it. It's not zero, it's not, you know, worthless, but it's, it's just partial, right? It can point to partial truths. It's one of the sources of intelligence, and people tend to see it as the whole of intelligence. So, um, So when you— if I ask them like, what does your heart want? And they're like, how do I know? Like, well, first bring attention to your— the space around your heart. So it is literal. Like, you'll find— and you could do that now if you're listening— like, if you bring your attention to the space around your heart, first of all, you— something shifts. You actually feel different. And you can ask, like, almost like ask your heart, like, what do you want? And from my experience, it may take a little practice, but you get answers, which is interesting, right? And it feels different than answering from your head. Um, and, and, well, I'll speak to gut and then come back to what I was about to say. And then the gut tends to be, um, it's also like a, a source of desire. It feels different. It's more just like, I just know, like, like there's a fire to it, right? Um, and into it, the seed of intuition. It's like this deep knowing, this grounded knowing. Um, So, you know, you could think of it as like the intuitive center, emotional center, and intellectual center. Okay. Um, it would be a simple way to think about it.

How is intuition or intuitive distinct from, from emotional or intellectual?

Um, intuitive, like if I ask someone, what does your gut say? And they're taking a while to answer, I know they're not They're not answering from what the gut is. Just instant. It's just like there's no thought. It bypasses thought. There's no reasoning or intellect. It's just this like subtle level knowing.

Uh, and it sounds like it bypasses feeling also.

It can't— yeah, that's true, because feelings can sway it, you know, if you're scared. Like, often the reason we don't know what we want, or at least— I don't want to say pretend as if it's conscious, but like have the experience of thinking we don't know what we want is because what we really want is either scary or shameful. And I don't mean it's actually shameful. I mean, we think it's shameful, right? Like, oh, you know, I want to work 20 hours a week and make, you know, $2 million a year. Like, is that okay to want that? That's so— that's too greedy. Like, what about everybody else, you know? So, um, to your point, sometimes our emotional relationship to wants, i.e., not wanting to feel shame or fear, can block us from recognizing, like, just this gut level. I just— this is just what I want. Um, and I think we, you know, as kids, like, kids tend to know what they want. You know, you ask a kid, "I want candy. I want the blue polka-dotted this. I want—" And we sort of get told, I think inadvertently, our parents use shame to control us to like only want the things they think we should want, right? That are the right things to want, the societally appropriate. And so, we sort of learn, "Okay, it's shameful to want these things," or even, "It's shameful to want." or authentically want. And so over time, we kind of atrophy our ability to attune to our gut, like, base-level desires and our emotional wants. And so that's why I think we tend to kind of like shut those down and just go into our intellect again to stay safe. It's like, okay, this is the appropriate thing to want, right? A good career and—

Well, it's funny, kids. I was just thinking your kids example is great because the ones with more overbearing parents I've noticed tend to be the ones who, who you ask them what they want and they kind of like, they, they didn't start that way for sure. But then all of a sudden as they get a little older, like, I don't know, do I want this, dad? Do I, you know, like, yeah.

Like, is it okay for me to want this? Yeah. And it's a, I think it's a real travesty because I think it's the most, um, like clear guidance to our authentic authenticity. The thing that's most unique about each human is we have different wants. And again, we can override them with our intellect that tends to be more conformist, more designed to help us belong in our culture and society. So, like, a lot of people have the experience of, I feel like I'm wearing a mask. I feel like I'm living someone else's life. I felt this for many years, and that is often goes like hand in hand with I'm just operating from my intellect and I've cut off my heart and my gut. So yeah, you are not being fully authentic because you've cut off access to even know what your authentic wants are.

So if we talk about head, heart, gut, and if I say to you, okay, cool, cool framework, but like I think those other two heart and gut are kind of just distractions. They're my, you know, emotional stuff is unreliable and my gut is just bullshit. Yeah, I gotta run it through the brain because the brain is, you know, like, that's what's got— that's what's, you know, that's, that's my intelligence. That's my intellect, Dave. Yeah. What would you have me do to maybe convince me otherwise or to like show me that there— again, not that it's— and by the way, just to be clear, I don't think we're saying that the intel intellect is wrong or bad, it's just not the complete picture. But I think a lot— like, again, it's also unreliable.

Yeah. So, so that might be the first place I'll go. Like, have you always been right? So your mind makes predictions, right? Your intellectual mind makes predictions about the future, and so you're constantly attempting to make the right decision based on your prediction of what will happen. Well, if you, if you're honest with yourself and you look, were you all— was your intellectual mind always right about its prediction? And, um, you know, most people, if they're honest, will say, well, God no. Uh, especially if when we're scared, uh, like our fear-based thoughts and predictions about the future are almost always wrong, if not like the literal opposite, right? Oh God, I'm scared. And I think if I do this thing, this bad thing will happen. And then you do the thing and the literal opposite happens, right? Um, or you don't do the thing for 6 months because your mind says, don't do that, don't fire that, you know, head of engineering because the team will just fall apart and it'll crumble. And so you don't do it because you're listening to your mind, and then finally you it's untenable, or you work up the courage, or you work with a coach or whatever, and then you do it and you're like, oh my God, like, not only did it not fall apart, there, you know, people relieved, people stepped up in surprising ways. So I think if you're honest with yourself, you can see countless examples of when your intellect, um, predicted something that was totally wrong and caused you to make a bad decision, um, or delay a good decision. So that's the first thing, is just to really take an honest look of how accurate is your intellect at predicting the future. Um, or maybe it was right about what would happen but wrong about the impact of that, right? I mean, that's, that's maybe the biggest trap is, okay, I'll do these things and then I'll have these results and then I'll feel fulfilled and joy and content. And then, you know, as we've talked about probably many times, um, that doesn't actually happen. So it's, it's almost like the intellect is like actually concerned with survival but trying to trick you into thinking it's concerned with your fulfillment and thriving. And so it tells you, oh yeah, yeah, if you just do these things, then you'll be happy. Um, but it's not true. And so most people can at least experience that one, right? And we've talked about, you know, we We both know billionaires who are not fulfilled and don't feel free or even safe at some level. Um, and so, so that's the first place I would just look.

Yeah. How on the other two, what are small experiments for heart-based intelligence and gut-based intelligence that you would have someone try?

So one shorthand that I use, you know, anyone's worked with me has heard me say like, follow aliveness. Follow your aliveness, which is sort of like, you know, I guess Conscious Leadership would say whole body yes, which means your head, your heart, your gut all say yes, maybe even your spirit as well. We could kind of delve into that if we want. Um, but just like every part of you says yes. Um, and so there are people who practice, uh, like whole, you know, whole body yes, or hell yes or no. And the hell yes does, you know, we Even just when you think about a hell yes, that's not an intellectual, like, hell yes, right? It's like a— it's an energy. It's a feeling in your body, right? Your heart says yes. Your gut says yes. Your body feels alive and energized. Um, so I have countless examples of, of clients who've reported like seemingly miraculous synchronicities and results when they just followed their aliveness. Like, I couldn't have possibly predicted this. And yet look what happened. Whether that's like, you know, they, they went to some event that they don't even know. It didn't even make sense. But then, then they met someone who became this like amazing customer or partner or, you know, team member.

Wow. I remember one— you may not remember this, but one exercise when we were deciding where to live, like what city to live in, me and my wife, you had us like write the city names down on pieces of paper and stand on them to see how we felt.. And then it was like, oh, like this, you know, you could feel alive. Like when I sat on the St. Louis one, I was like, ah, this is exciting. I can feel a buzzing. Whereas when I stood on the other ones, I'm like, they were fine. I didn't feel bad, but it just didn't feel the same. Like to your point around aliveness.

Totally. Yeah. We, you know, I run a small venture capital fund with my, one of my best friends on the side. And we've done that with investment opportunities. We put the thing on, you know, yes or no, or put different opportunity and like stand on it and just know. So that's a really cool example of a very counterintuitive, non-intellectual approach to making choices.

Um, another one I, another one I sometimes advise people to do is like make the decision and then, and then almost in the immediate aftermath you can feel how it feels. Yes. Because you're like, just, okay, we're gonna definitely hire this person. And are you like, oh no. And then, or are you like, I'm gonna definitely hire this person. You're like, oh my gosh, I feel so good. I feel so happy that even before you've maybe communicated it or whatever, just make the decision in your mind and then see how it feels.

I love that as well. I was thinking more about your, like, what's— so yeah, an experiment to run, um, you could start out really simple. Like, imagine you were— yeah, you want to run an experiment around following aliveness, or, you know, following your intuition. You can start out with simple choices, you know, where do I want to go to dinner? Like, and because part of the issue is you first have to build the muscle of attunement. Like, how do I even know what my heart wants? You know, so you sort of have to practice, like, okay, Chinese or Italian? Like, you know, okay, what do I feel? What do I want? And then you can go to like more and more consequential choices.

Pause there for one second. So I think that's a really important point. Um, If you're used to being in your head all the time and thinking through things logically, and then I start to say like, well, why don't you— what does your heart want for dinner? What is your— like, you tell me if this is right or wrong, but I think you'll actually not be able to— you'll actually use your head again just without even realizing it. You'll just go back into your head, or you'll be like, I don't know, this is— there's nothing showing up. So what do I do? What does attunement mean? How do I think about doing that better?

So one, um, well, attunement means— I don't know if it's too similar a word— like tuning into, right? Putting attention on and noticing what the sensations are.

Um, and for most people, especially founders, we're just so, I think, oftentimes disconnected from everything other than our heads, that—

yeah, like, the body is the, is the vehicle that moves our intellectual mind around the world. Yeah, right. So part of it is literally, you know, what is— there's like the longest journey is the 18 inches from your head to your heart. Part of it is just, you know, taking that journey and literally, um, moving your attention. I mean, we can go even like step back for a second to like the metacognitive skill of exerting conscious control over your attention. Right, right. Like, it's one of the most important skills we have as a human being. As you— like, right now you could put attention on your left pinky toe, right? Like, how cool is that, that you can do that, right? Or you put attention on your right hand, right? Like, you can do that. So similarly, if you notice your attention is on your thoughts, your, you know, or your intellect or your head, um, you can choose in that moment, okay, I'm going to move my attention down to the space around my heart. And then just see what's there. Get really curious, right? Like a little kid. Like, what, you know, oh, I feel a constriction, I feel a buzzing.

I feel the first few times you do it, you're, you're gonna need more time and more space to kind of quiet your mind down, probably. And in my own experience, I guess I'll speak for, is like, at first it was really hard because actually when I would quiet my mind or quiet myself and stay, I get a lot more thoughts would actually start showing up. And I think I'm just calling that out because I think it takes real practice to then—

Yeah, just like when people first start trying to meditate, it's like— Totally. The thoughts are such a magnet for attention that like, okay, I'm trying to focus on my breath. Oh, oh, what about this? What about that? Oh, am I doing this right? You know? And so similarly, you know, if you're attempting to bring your attention down to your heart, you might notice just your thoughts just keep attracting it. Hooking your attention. And so yeah, it may take some real intention and practice to, um, you know, like there's a skill of concentration. I did a meditation retreat recently and the first 2 days was just training concentration, your ability to keep your attention where you want to keep it, so that in the next several days we could then explore the, you know, facets of reality that we were wanting to explore. So there's a real skill there in just can you consciously choose where to put your attention? And so that may be like the, the sort of meta skill, um, and then one place you might choose to put your attention is in your heart space, another is around your gut. And so I think that's the first part of the practice. Literally, it's a physical thing of like moving your attention down into your body, into your heart, into your gut, and just be curious what's going on there. And then you say, okay, if I consider I don't know, uh, you know, whatever. We're choosing to launch internationally or not. Okay, yes, we're gonna— like, what's happening in my body? No, what's happening in my body? And it takes time to calibrate. So, you know, part of the issue is, like, founders, like most people, they want certainty. And, um, it feels— well, one, certainty is impossible. You can't predict the future. And two, it feels particularly sort of gross and amorphous at first. I think there's— it's useful just to calibrate with things that you do have reasonable certainty around. So one thing that might— you might do is if there's something you just know you have a whole body yes to, meaning like your head says yes, heart's like, you're just, heck yeah, you know, for me, like powder skiing, like I could like put my attention on like powder skiing, right? Like, oh, it's like a powder day, I'm getting up, I have the whole day free. Maybe a Bluebird powder day. It's like I can feel, oh, it's like, what is it, like an upwelling of energy moving through my body, right? So that's a nice calibration. And then I could go, okay, what about something that I'm like, ugh, you know, like, um, whatever, prepping my tax. I spend the whole day, you know, doing tax prep and like finding all my, you know, the details of my whatever accounts and all that. I can feel this like constrictive, draining. So that's a nice way to calibrate. Like, start with something that, like, extremes that you know you're— you love and that you know— I don't want to say hate, but like you really, really don't enjoy. Um, and then you can kind of have that as like a bit of an indicator, energetic map to like, okay, like now when I'm considering, um, you know, launch internationally— don't launch internationally— like, which one feels more like powder skiing and which one feels more like doing my taxes? And it won't be that extreme, otherwise it wouldn't be a hard choice. But, but you start to be able to like refine your attunement so you can sense more and more subtly yeses and nos.

Right. And I think you were saying earlier, I interrupted you, about like start with low-stakes stuff, like what you want to eat.

Yeah, just to practice. Yeah, right. Or like on a Saturday, what do I want to do today? Right? Like, I, for a long time, that was actually stressful for me. I have a whole day free. Should I go for a bike ride, or should I go to the gym, or should I go do yoga, or should I go for a hike? And it like— because I was trying to figure out the right answer, even though in something as silly and inconsequential as that. So even just that, like, okay, what do I want to do? Okay, when I think about— yeah, like going for a hike, like that, that feels like a yes.

Um, and then, yeah, like both co-founder partner and potential marital partner, I think that those people can be really helpful in supporting you in that way of just like, oh, do you have a whole body? Like someone just prompting you and going, do you have, or you don't seem like you're saying yes. I hear you say you think it's a good idea.

Yeah, right.

But I don't see that you're actually—

Joe has a podcast, a whole podcast on like wants versus shoulds. I think that's a wonderful distinction. Like, is this a should? You think you should do it, or do you actually want to do it? And obviously, the takeaway is follow your wants, not your shoulds, right? Because, you know, shoulds tend to be basically sourced externally. Like, why do you think you should do that? Somebody told you it's the right thing. Yeah, it's like the conformist way. Um, say you're— what was your prompt again? A question?

Well, I think, I think so. We were, we just talked about kind of how to tap more into the heart, I think, and practicing with that. The experiments you would have founders run, like, yeah, the gut. What are there, are there other similar things with the gut that you would have them? I might, one of mine is like, go try to go against your gut and see how that feels. That's cool. Because anytime someone, you know, they're like, damn, every time I go against my gut, if I actually start tracking it, yeah, I basically realize like that I don't make the Yeah, the head is, is misleading me.

Yeah, what— I like that. Um, again, same thing, like bring your attention down to literally like around, like just below your navel, right? Like below your belly button. Like feel what's there when you consider different— so it's very similar. Um, but also, well, there's two things I want to speak to. One is Sometimes you have to— it requires courage to know what's in your gut. Because like, like, I'll ask clients, what's your deep knowing about this? And if you're really willing, you know, but sometimes it's scary. It's like, oh yeah, like, I wanna, I wanna, um, you know, break up with my co-founder. Like, I wanna, I want them out. I don't want to work, you know. It's like, oh God, the implications of that, you know. Or I don't want to build this business anymore. I want out. Like, oh God, I'm going to have to tell it, right? So sometimes it requires first like feeling the fear all the way through, you know, which we've talked about, like being willing to feel the fear. And so if you're having trouble accessing like what's in your gut, that's a place to look like, okay, well, like what, what are you scared might be true? Yeah. Right. That can be interesting. The other place to look is anger. And there's a— I find there a real connection between gut and anger, which is interesting because, you know, we tend to think of emotions as heart. But, um, and I think anger is actually a really powerful way to connect with your gut-level wants, right? Even what you just said, if you go against your gut, if you're willing to experience anger, probably what you, you'll notice— anger, frustration, irritation, some— you're like, like Because anger is just showing you something that you want is not happening, right? And might be something you kind of want, it might be something that's really important to you. I mean, that's what anger is, is the energy of boundaries and wants.

If you find things you regret and then you look back on how you made that decision, you probably went against your gut.

Yes, and most people say that. And, and you find things that work out really well, if you really look, most of the time, if you look at the things that have like almost like miraculous, surprising, beyond expectations. Usually if you're really honest, those were like, I just kind of knew, gut, like I said, with like your spouse or partner.

The other thing with the gut, it's, you know, when I first started working with Rick Elias at Red Ventures, you know, he used to say this thing of like, you got to see something for what it is. And I hated that because I was like, well, no, I got to like be positive about where it's going to go versus like, I didn't actually know how you did both. And I think now as I think about those two things, it's actually using these different intelligences. Mm-hmm. Right. So like the gut, like what he was talking about was like, hey, like you kind of have to know that like this is not going to be set up for success or this person is not going to work or this, this client is not— they don't love you as much as you love them or whatever. And then at the same time, you have to put together a plan that you're going to grow your business against. And I think I would oftentimes just not do this part. I would just, I would disregard it or I just wouldn't tap in. And I'd find myself disappointed often because I would like, I'd be missing the thing that was. And then if you would, if you would ask me or someone to go, well, what do you really know to be true? And what you really know to be true is like, man, that client is not that happy with us, or that employee is not, they're not, they're not going to make it to the growth thing that we need them to make it to. But I would like, I would just really quiet that part of my, my, that intel intelligence down because I wanted to maintain hope.

Well, it's coming up for me as you're saying this is, is something about information processing speed. And I— of the three, I think thoughts are actually the slowest and therefore the most disconnected from reality. Like, there's a lot of time for, like, from the direct experience of reality to interpretation through a bunch of perceptual filters that, like, basically the conditioned mind to the thought, whereas gut and heart tend to be actually much closer to reality. They're much faster. Yeah. And like, like you said earlier, we do not— certainly in our mind, like, we do not see reality as it is. Like, we're seeing it through these perceptual filters from our conditioning. And so I did this—

sorry, is this a funny story? To remember the Ferrari racing thing I did? Yes. So there was two different exercises. There were so many cool exercises, but one of the exercises was you had to go as fast as you could in the car and then slam on the brakes. And they wanted to show you how, how actually good the brakes are. But, and, and then if you went 30 or 40 miles an hour, the thing stopped in 3 feet. Like, it was unbelievable. But if you got up to 70 or 80, then you would skid for a little bit. And they were on a walkie-talkie, they weren't in the car, and they would tell you there's a bus on your left or a bus on your right. So you would have to, you would have to make sure that you slammed on the brakes and went, and went to the other direction, right? And so the first few times, I kept my, my, I kept trying to anticipate what they were going to say. Or then, like, you know, the first time I didn't and I did it right. The second time, I was like, well, he said left last time. I can, like, notice my brain. And the last few times, I was just like, I just need to clear my mind. And when my mind was clear, because I think it was like a gut response. And then there was another activity they did where it was like this really fast autocross and like you just couldn't think about what you were doing. I mean, you literally just kind of like skiing or you just had to go react, react, react, react.

You know, this is reminding me of the Daniel Kahneman, like Thinking Fast and Slow, right? And like System 1, System 2, or like the inner game of tennis. Like there's a lot of these books in French pointing to like, if you just trust your system to respond, it will. If you try to think about it, you actually— it's less efficient. You undermine your system's natural ability to respond to life. And so I think there's— it's almost like a leap of faith to like start to trust your system to respond to life, you know, in, in alignment with your intentions versus having to think about everything and try to control everything. Yeah. Um, especially because the mind is so often not in the present, it's in the future or in the past. And so you're not really responding to what's happening, you're like trying to control something that is, you know, in the future, or, um, you know, basically react based on something that happened in the past that you're superimposing onto the present. So lots of reasons why the intellect is an unreliable guide. Again, it's a useful— right, the mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master. It's a useful tool, right? It's extraordinary what we're able to imagine and create with our mind if we use it as a tool. But, you know, so often it's on autopilot.

Um, or even one thing coming to mind for me that's interesting, I'll try this on, you can tell me what you think, is like The, you know, oftentimes in business and strategy, you'll talk about a what problem versus a how problem. You know, like, oh, this is what, what is strategy, how is execution, for example. I wonder if maybe just as a helpful guide is like the, then, then there's the third one, which is why, why are you doing this? And so, you know, there's the why, what, how, or whatever the Simon Sinek framework is, but maybe the heart intelligence is the why. The gut intelligence is the what and then the brain is the how. So it's like, why am I doing this? Like, blank, what? Like, I want to do this. This is what, you know, my gut's telling me. And then the how— then if you actually bring your brain to how, to your— I think it becomes more of the servant than the master because it's like, right, it's like, okay, how do I—

yeah, break that down as a step.

And this is what you want to do. And okay, let me, let me help make that a reality, master. Versus the— we tend to get stuck in our brains going Am I making the right choice? Is this the right thing? Should I want this? Is, you know, like, and then that is just the brain is not a good why or what machine.

It's not bad. I think, uh, I like it. And I think sometimes even the how can come more spontaneously. Like, it's interesting to think about, um, you know, there are a handful of human beings who are, let's say, enlightened. And tend to, um, not have the experience of thinking, certainly not very often, right? Their mind is basically quiet and still. And just notice they still speak and take action, right? So like, at the extreme, it's interesting to just wonder about a world where you don't have any thoughts. Yeah.

And you still like, well, or like skiing or playing a tennis point or in the car racing.

You're not like— notice you're right, you still do, um, and arguably maybe even more effectively. Um, so I don't— again, I don't want to totally dismiss the intellect, but I also think it's fun to play with the possibility of— imagine there was no thinking. Um, the fear we have is, oh my God, I would just make— I would be an idiot, I would make terrible choices. I don't think that's actually true. I think our system is way more intelligent. And by the way, I mean, there's something I was going to say earlier. There's neurons throughout the body, right? For a long time, they thought all the neurons were here, but like, there are neurons in the gut, you know. So even just the notion that our brain lives here is false, right? Um, and again, I don't— you know, we can have a conversation around does intelligence come from our neurons, or is it— is our neurons more of a— like, I think there's an interesting view that the nervous system and the brain is more of a receiver, like a receiving antenna to, you know, quantum field.

Or let's tease that out as we finish here. The— just to kind of bookend this, like, I think I'll just— like, the quick TL;DR is head, heart, gut. Yes. When they're all in alignment, it's— you said heck yes, I like the F yes. Yes. Like, but you are like— and most of us have— know what that experience is like, and then we probably know the opposite experience. So the almost the best thing you can do is calibrate yourself and then start to go and try to make decisions from either individually different parts or all three aligned, even for something like, what do I want to eat?

Like, and at least ask the question, okay, what do I— what does my head want? What does my heart want? What does my gut want? That's just a useful practice just to start to at least, at least ask the questions and acknowledge that there's other intelligences beyond just mathematically or logically sorting through a problem.

Yes. Okay. So with the last few minutes, maybe we can do this next episode. Is there another kind of intelligence? You, you, you said spirit once, and now you just started talking about being a receiver. What is there another intelligence that we didn't cover with the head-heart gut?

So one thing I notice at times is I'll be in a group and I'll have this thought, and you know, the old version of me would like try to get it out as quickly as possible because I want to sound smart and I want to say the thing that's going to be helpful. But, um, More recently, I just, I'll just stay quiet and then somebody else will say the thing. And most people, if they're, if they pay attention, they'll notice that happening. It's a very common phenomenon. So that's kind of fascinating to me. And I think you could call it like the field, you know, the field of awareness, right? Like, um, the quantum field. Like, I think there is an intelligence in the field that arises through our individual expressions of, you know, the field of awareness. And we can have a deeper conversation around like, you know, what are we essentially. And, um, but, but even just that, that simple example I think is really accessible, that it's like, or, you know, in a group, um, you know, somebody will be like the risk taker and someone else is like the more conservative one. And then for some reason, the conservative one has a change of heart and is like, you know what, let's do it, let's go for it. Someone else will suddenly be like, well, hold on, let's think about this. It's like there's these different energies in the field and they, they want to come through, um, and so they're going to come through, you know, regardless. And so I think we tend— well, I'm pretty confident we tend to think of ourselves as more of an individual and, and think more about our individual intelligence than what's actually happening, whereas there's a just a broader intelligence that's kind of occurring and we can access it. Which is why I like the idea that like the, the mind or the brain is like a receiver that can sort of access, you know, parts of the sort of field of intelligence or consciousness Yeah, and I was almost—

I mean, again, I think we can go into this, even higher form of intelligence in the next episode. But, you know, people say universe a lot. That's like a common parlance of, oh, the universe wanted this. And again, in Sikhism, God and the universe are synonymous. There's just no difference between those two. And there's no big man in the sky. There's just infinite energy and intelligence that permeates through everything. And this oneness. Um, but it's interesting because the— this universe thing, you know, I've like, in retrospect, you know, it's Steve Jobs, you can only connect the dots looking backwards. But I've noticed now I've gotten enough intelligence around it where I'm like, oh wow, my, you know, my wife is really— doesn't want to do this, or some— my business partner Adrienne, she'll dig her heels in on something. And old me would just raise hell. Like, I would We're gonna do this. No, I'm gonna convince you. And, you know, and now with enough like thought and guidance, I'm like, oh, hmm, you digging in has served me actually. Like there's something that's gonna happen. And then like, I just noticed, like, again, you can always notice it backwards and kind of connect these dots. But now I've started actually noticing it forward where I'm like, oh, there's something that's going on that's not you or me. There's something happening., and I'm going to trust that that's happening for a reason that's going to lead to something way bigger or way different or way what's right for me. And that intelligence feels like this huge orchestration of, of like the cosmos order or whatever that, that is another, you just, and we're all just trees or whatever in that, you know, like we're just individual expressions of awareness.

Um, in the Conscious Leadership framework, you know, there's to me, by me, through me, as me, right? So life happens to me, life happens by me. That's below the line, above the line. To me, below the line. By me, above the line. But then there's this notion, and this comes from Michael Beckwith initially, life happens through me, which is touching on what we're touching on. And so the, the main question you start to ask from through me is, what wants to happen through me? Mm-hmm. And there's, there's a book called Reinventing Organizations by Frederic Laloux. That's a really interesting book that looks at different ways you might view the organization, like your company. Like, you know, the, the common view is like, it's like a machine and I have to put in the inputs and make the outputs. But another view is it's like a living organism that has its own sort of evolution. And so you could see yourself as a CEO as like, I'm a steward of this thing. And it becomes a different stance from like, what do I want to like, what wants to happen through me? What wants to happen with this organization? And so, your job is much more like a sensing than a figuring out. And it gets really fun and interesting when you start to play life that way. I'm often asking like, what wants to happen through me? And again, your mind will want certainty. Like, you can't figure out what wants to happen through me with your mind. Because your mind just wants certainty and safety. And like, this isn't a game of certainty, it's a game of like sensing into, iterating, experimenting.

Um, but you know, it's, it's feels close to me to the notion of the question of will you suffer through it or will you— because even if your brain is smart, you were, oh, let's run 5 experiments, and then you're sad when the first one doesn't work because you really want it to work versus, right, oh, I just got more, I just got more information about what's, what's true.

Um, it feels similar to the notion of just following aliveness. Yeah, it's like, what I love about it is I, I just think aliveness is a better guide to your authentic path than any other, like your intellect. And if you really look at like why you want all the things your intellect, you know, thinks you want, it's because you think it'll make you feel alive, right? Ultimately, like, that's what we like. And so if you just follow aliveness, you're more— it's just a more direct path to experiencing the thing you ultimately want to experience. All right, till next time. Oh, universal intelligence, that'll be fun to explore. Bye, Jesse.