How Founders Trick Themselves Into Never Having Enough Time

Hello and welcome to Heart of Entrepreneurship. This is your host, Jesse Pujji, and I'm here with my co-host Dave Kashen.

Good morning. How you doing? Good.

So this was one that we actually had the topic ahead of time because I said it last week of— I think the stated topic of this is how to— The Founder's Guide to Living Every Day Like It's Your Last.

Hmm. And I think, I think I would have thought about it and prepared given that you teed me up last time, but I didn't. So we'll see what comes out.

Well, I'll start to talk a little bit. I think that again, the, the frame that I always like around this is whenever someone says like, you know, and I think actually it's funny, my wife started reading The Untethered Soul and he's got, and Tony Robbins suggests that book and he says start with chapter 17. Which is the one about death, contemplating death. And this is a great jumping off point. So, you know, he says like, imagine you actually had a week to live. Like how much, you know, how do we give up time, whatever. And he makes this point, and this is my distinction of like, we tend to, you know, the parlor game is a what game, meaning like, if I only had a week to live, what would I do? I would go eat chocolate cake and I would wanna go to Mount Everest or whatever. And it's all what, what, what, what, what. And his point, which really resonated deeply with me as a jumping-off point for this conversation, is no, it's not a what, it's a how. Or like, it's a context, not a content thing, to use the conscious leadership language. But the how is no, if you knew you were going to be gone in a week, you would look out the window and go, wow, like, look at the sky and look, oh my God, this leaf is so beautiful. And every hug you gave a person, you would just pause a little bit longer to be there and you'd just be really present effectively, right? And I think maybe as a starting point for everyone listening, it's like, really try to let that distinction sit. That like, I don't think if you had a week to live you would be running around checking things off of a box, or off of, you know, checking boxes off. Instead, you would probably be tripling down on the things that truly mattered, but mostly your own— the way you showed up and your own being would actually probably be the most important you would savor, you know.

Yeah. And my guess is if you thought about how you would show up, most people would use words like, I'd be really present, loving, grateful, um, expressive. So that— I really, I love that distinction of like the what versus how because The, the what gets confusing in the sense of, well, but I don't have a week to live, so does it really make sense to go spend the week with my family and friends when I have all this work stuff to get done, right? It's like, you know, the— that's where I think people sort of get tripped up on the question. But I love the distinction, because if you think about how you would want to be your last week of life As far as I can see, there's no reason why you couldn't choose to show up that way every week of your life.

Right. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's a beautiful question.

Yeah. So let's, let's pivot it now to the founder question. Like what one, like I'm just, okay. If I had to, like every week was my last or every day was my last as a founder. Yeah. Uh, one, one thing that just came to my mind, I'll just say it was like in every single meeting I would like, I would just be listening really carefully so that I could like fully understand and appreciate what was being said so that I could respond accordingly, especially if I thought I wasn't gonna be there next week or the following week.

Yeah. I think you'd also be listening to contribute. Mm. I just think naturally, if you felt like, oh my gosh, this, you know, this may be my last conversation with this person, I think you would just naturally want to contribute to their life, their well-being, you know, even in some small way. You know, maybe that's just, hey, I don't know, I don't know if I've told you this, I just so appreciate how thoughtful you are, how careful you are, how motivated, you know, whatever you see in them. And I do think, you know, when we think about withholding versus revealing or being fully self-expressed, most people tend to go toward the constructive side. Yeah, I really should give them that feedback. But I think we're equally, if not more, stingy with our love and appreciation.

Totally.

And so that clearly comes up if you're like, okay, if I had a week to live, like, why wouldn't I just tell everyone, oh my God, you know? I love you so much, you know, if that's appropriate, or at least I so appreciate you. I appreciate you for your care, for your, you know, whatever you see in them. And I, you know, from my experience, every human being is starving to feel fully seen and loved and appreciated. So I think that's—

well, and the clarity it would bring, again, if it was your last week, you would want to, you know— here's a, here's a funny story or an example I'll share. When I was a young CEO, my first year, I'd come right off Wall Street and had this great kid, this great employee who was very early. And he said to me in a one-on-one, he's like, "I just don't feel appreciated, like you're thankful that I work here." I'm embarrassed by my response now, but my response was like, "Yeah, I don't. You have a business deal. We made a deal. You're getting paid this. I'm getting— that's our arrangement." And, and like, you're here to, you know, and that was, it was like a very Wall Street-y kind of response. And, but I think a lot of founders struggle with like, if I show people appreciation, you know, maybe they won't work as hard. Like I actually need to, because I keep myself in this cycle, I need to keep everyone else stuck in it, which is sort of where I was at that point. But as a, just as a counter to that, if you knew you were going to be gone in a week, you'd be like, well, thanks for working at my company. Like, I'm so glad you're like, I'm going to lose my life. And now I recognize that your life you're choosing to spend. 50, 60, 70 hours a week working at my company. Wow. Like, and I just think about that moment and I would've just been like, oh, thank— yeah, of course I'm thankful that you're doing this. Or like, I, you know, I just, there's just a funny example.

Yeah. And just to kind of put a finer point on that, I would challenge any leader or founder to run that experiment and see if you express appreciation for people and for something they do. Like, is it actually true that they'll be less motivated? From my experience and all the clients that have run this experiment, the exact opposite occurs. And, you know, there's this cliché, what you appreciate appreciates, like, you get more of it. So I think it's both a beautiful way to contribute to somebody and a pretty effective leadership tool, right? That, you know, hopefully you're not doing it just to manipulate people, but it just turns out The more you appreciate people for the way they contribute to you and your company or that company, the more they tend to do those things that they're appreciated for.

Yeah. And you would probably self-appreciate. I mean, I do this thing, I think you know this, every Friday afternoon, I have a little block on my calendar to do appreciations and acknowledgements for anyone in my life, my people. Voice notes have become like the best way for me. It's quick and it's a little more personal and you hear my voice saying it. But I noticed, I noticed like I will ebb and flow depending on self-appreciation.

Well, you made this point a little, you just alluded to this, right? When you're motivating yourself from lack, you know, and fear, it doesn't occur to you as much to motivate people from appreciation and inspiration, right? We tend to motivate others how we motivate ourselves. So it makes sense when you're in this less— yeah, there's just less appreciation present because you're not appreciating yourself that you're less likely to appreciate others. So hopefully if you have had a week to live, you'd also really acknowledge and appreciate all the goodness. And, you know, I attended a retreat not too long ago called Groundbreakers 2, and one of the things they really pointed to was our inherent goodness. And I think it's a really powerful notion that, like, to just hold as a view that all humans are inherently good. Now, many have pretty distorted lenses on how to get their needs and wants met, how to feel loved, how to feel powerful, and so they do horrible things that, that, you know, we ought to and do what we can to stop, and there's still an inherent goodness that is underlying it. And so I think I just, you know, it's interesting as a concept, but I think it's profound as a felt sense. If you could actually feel into your inherent goodness, um, it's really powerful. And I think so many people have lost touch and access to that, you know, after a lifetime of being told all the ways they're not doing it right or not good enough, which are again, you know, other people's misguided ways to show love and to help you grow in certain ways, you know, especially our parents. I think if I had a week to live, I'd want to really connect with my inherent goodness and I'd want to put on this, you know, I don't want to say rose-colored in the sense of like it's not true, but I'd want to put on these glasses that have me particularly look for and see other people's inherent goodness. And people talk about this in a more sort of mundane way of like, assume good intent, right? A lot of people have norms like that. But I think it's actually pretty profound if you really look for, okay, like everyone is inherently good, everyone's always doing the best they can. So even if they're falling short in some fundamental way, like to, to be generous in your interpretation. And, um, I, I find the more you see the inherent goodness in others, the more it invites them to see it in themselves. So that's something coming up for me.

That's right. What's coming up for me is like, you know, we talked about Casey passing, and, you know, there's just something so clarifying about death where like She of course was a human, so she had, you know, these different traits and people get frustrated about certain things or whatever.

She's fallible.

Yeah. But, and none of it feels like it just not relative to her inherent goodness and her heart, that stuff feels tiny and it doesn't feel fake either. Like some, you know, sometimes you hear people say those things about someone and it's like, actually they're inherently, they're. That goodness is really strong. I think the things, you know, the— you say be disorganized or whatever, like these things that I think otherwise would upset people all felt tiny relative to her inherent goodness, which was very present. And so part of that is obviously hers, but just everyone. You— if it became a life and death situation, your inherent goodness for yourself, as you're saying, would show much more clearly or you'd hope in your last week that that— and I think, by the way, just to remind everyone, the reason we're talking about this is like, I think one of the cool things about this is can you live every week like it's your last week? And yeah, and you feel your inherent goodness every week. Can you be reminded of it every morning or every—

and see it in others and see it in others? And I was really struck in this retreat, many grown men and women, very, very accomplished you know, broke down crying when they really connected with their inherent goodness. And it was evidence to me of how many people live with shame and this core sense that there's something wrong or bad about me. And that is a— uh, so, you know, my wish for anyone in general, but especially if it was your last week, is to shed that and recognize just the um, just how not true that is, that there is nothing wrong with you or anybody. Humans are not fundamentally bad. We don't need to be, you know, disciplined and controlled. We need to remove what's in the way of connecting with our inherent goodness so that we show up and behave in pro-social ways.

Yeah. And I don't, I don't think there's another— this idea that you would just run away from your work You know, I'm sure if you're working a dead-end job or you're doing something that you really just don't want to be doing, like Steve Jobs, I think, worked up until a few weeks before he passed. Yeah, he loved what he was doing. And even I think about what I do, like, I'm like, I would want to come in and meet people and talk about things, and I would, because that's like, I love doing that.

I—

it genuinely energizes me. Um, but yeah, I'm sorry, what were you saying?

Well, I think the point you're— you may be making, or that I could extrapolate from that, is it is worth reflecting on, okay, if this was roughly my last week, um, would I still want to be doing this, right? And, um, if not, that could mean two things. One, the way you're doing it isn't actually aligned with, you know, the way you want to be showing up and living your life, or you actually don't want to be doing it. And that's also really instructive. I think a lot of founders are building their companies, um, to try to prove something, to try to conform to someone else's idea of what success looks like, to try to, you know, make enough money to feel free, which is a trap that doesn't really work. Um, so I think that's, I think that's important. Um, there's this other theme coming up for me I just want to name because it's come up a bunch in my coaching recently, which is this distinction between finite and scarce. I don't know if we've talked about that. What comes up for— yeah, when you hear those two words, what do you think of the difference between finite and scarce?

Well, finite means there's— one feels like fact versus story. Like finite, oh, there's like, there's 10 bottles of water. Scarcity feels like endless or one week to live. Like the opposite of like an infinite, like loop of there's not enough.

Yeah, exactly. So scarce equals finite plus a story or perspective. There's not enough. And I think that's a really important distinction.

Yeah.

Because ironically, I think when people actually are given a cancer terminal diagnosis and have a certain amount of live, a certain amount of time to live, ironically, they shift from scarcity to finite, which is, you wouldn't think that, but from the stories that I've heard, they're often just grounded in, "Okay, I actually have this much time." And the facing the finite nature of their time creates a sense of preciousness and sacredness, the thing that we all want. Only we could live every day if it's precious. This kind of what we're pointing to with this one week to live concept. And ironically, most of us are living with this perspective of scarcity. And like, even though we probably have many, many, many, many, many years, you know, months, weeks, hours, um, we live with this perspective, not enough time. Most founders I know, you know, if you— if they're really honest with themselves and, and me, they realize they have a story that there's not enough time. And so, they're never fully present because they're constantly living in the future trying to catch up because they're constantly believing that they're behind or that there's just not enough. And I think when you recognize that scarcity is just a story, to your point, it's not a fact. Finite is a fact, right? Okay, we have X million dollars in the bank.

Great.

That's how much you have that will last us this long, you know, this burn. You know, I think it's important to be grounded in reality. We're not, we're not being Pollyanna and pretending like, oh, we have infinite, you know, whatever. Um, but the other day, that's really ironic, but what creates—

hold on, I'm like stuck on this. It's a really, it's a really powerful distinction. Um, what creates this feeling of scarcity? Because it's such an undefined feeling to your point. What? Yeah, I mean, what you said is kind of crazy, right? And it just— I was like, if we were told we had 90 days to live, that is a finite amount of time, and yet it would create probably some of the most— there'd be a lot of fear there, probably, for most people, but like, it would also create a preciousness. And yet if you have 90 days, in the next 90 days, like, you probably feel a lot of not enoughness and scarcity. I'm just like, let's just double-click on why. Why does that happen?

I was just thinking of the quote, like, it's not the years in the life, it's the life in the years.

Yeah.

You know, so why does that happen? I don't know that I can say. It seems to be true that when faced with death, something shifts in most people that enables them to experience the present moment more deeply. And maybe— I'm speculating, but interesting to explore— Maybe it starts to loosen the grip of the ego, right? And by ego, I simply mean the sense of being a separate individual self. And I think that the experience of not enough, which I'm using to broaden beyond just not enough time, not enough money, I'm not enough, right? I think it is an inherent experience in identifying as the individual separate self.

Right.

And so, because it's not the whole truth of what we are, I think when we identify as this separate self, there's like this sense that there is something— this is not enough, this is not the whole, this is just partial. And so, it just comes with this sense that there's not— yeah, there's something missing, there's something wrong. And I think we then project that onto time, money, confidence, freedom, joy. Like we just sort of project this sense of not enough onto all the aspects of our experience. And I think when you're faced with death, it naturally starts to loosen the grip of the ego because the ego is about to die, right? Um, maybe not for everybody, but I think that's sometimes when I, when I've heard some of these stories, that's some of what I hear coming through. Um, and also just in general, I think when we're not grounded in reality, when things are in the abstract our mind, it's just easier for our mind to make a mess of it. You know, it's like even just, you know, we've talked about, right, um, attachment to the outcome and like, oh, I'm scared of my startup failing. And when that's just this amorphous kind of idea, it's like it really grips us in fear versus when you really face it, you know, again, now we're talking about startup death, not, not human death, right? Like, okay, what would really happen you know, okay, this would happen. I'd whatever, you know, email a bunch of people and have some feelings, and then I would do whatever I'm going to do next.

Um, well, an interesting— so there's some way in startup death thing, like, every time I've had a business that was like near death, it's been the most clarified. And like, you know, you're, you're just heads down and you're getting stuff done, and you're just— yeah, you're actually worrying in those moments, which is kind of funny, similar to, I think, to human. You're just You're like, all right, we got like 60 days and if we don't, if this doesn't happen, it's game over. And we're okay.

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

And, and it's just like a funny, funny thing.

Yeah. It's interesting how what matters most to us comes into the spotlight when we're close to the end. Right, right. Which is what you're pointing to. And so then it, it, it, there may be more to explore on this finite scarcity thing. We can keep going with it or come back to it, but it does, it does bring to mind this question of like, what obscures us from what matters most every other day, you know? Like when we're not facing or thinking about the end, you know, of the thing, you know, whatever it is— death or the end of something. It's interesting that humans tend to drift away from what really matters to things that matter less. I just noticed I'm curious about that.

Yeah, I think there's a lot around— I mean, some of it's like you say, be present, but I think if you double-click, like, there's a lot of outcome-oriented thinking, at least for me, my experience. Like, one of my biggest shifts in my last 5, 10 years for myself has been I don't find myself less interested in business or entrepreneurship or anything, I find myself much less interested in like the outcome, like just even less time I'm spending on like, what's it going to sell for? How much is this going to, you know, versus like the, ooh, this is a fun thing I'm about to work on and do. I don't know if that—

Yeah, I want to like unpack the cliché of, you know, enjoying the journey, you know, versus the destination. Because I think you're pointing to something really important, and I'll link this back to this. We identify as a separate self, we feel this sense of lack or incompleteness, and then we project that there's some condition in the future, right, that will create the feeling of completeness, of wholeness. And so I think that is how most people live. Yeah, this is probably getting to the heart of that question of, of why don't we focus on what actually matters is because we're so focused on sort of chasing the condition or conditions that we believe will give us this sense of joy, wholeness, peace, freedom, that we miss all of the now moments between, you know, now and then. Um, and again, like, I Yeah, I really appreciate The Untethered Soul. The book The Power of Now is just coming to mind as well, the Eckhart Tolle book, because it is wild if you really like stop to grok that we only ever experience life in the now moment, right? Like, it sounds so simple, but like, we don't generally view life that way. We generally think of life as like this continuum of time And, um, what I usually do, what I will do.

Yeah. Yeah.

I, I find this useful. I, I, I've had this image come to mind a few times. Like, imagine you're, um, in one of these office chairs and you're like moving down this long, long, long, like so long you can't, you don't know where it stops hallway, right? There's like offices on both sides and that, that's kind of what it feels like you're moving through life. But imagine suddenly you realize that actually you and the chair aren't moving, it's actually the hallway that's moving. Yep. Like there's something about that that like something clicks for me around like, I'm just here now, right?

Aware all this is moving around you and life is just moving, right?

And like events are arising and passing in my timeless awareness.

When you resist the movement, then you're unhappy. If you flow with the movement or the river, the river's a common spiritual analogy, right? Of like you're—

Yeah. If you're flowing with the river versus fighting the river.

Yeah.

Which I think is why I've gravitated so much towards conscious leadership and just this practice of being here now. Because I mean, the joke of it is like, you can't not be here now that like here is the only place you are and now is the only time you're in. But with our minds, we can perceive, you know, and focus on something other than what's happening now, right? And so I think there's something there around this game we play of thinking that there's something in the future that will make us whole or feel whole. And then because we're so focused on the future, we're just not— we're not— our attention is not in here.

We're gonna die in 90 days. Then like you, well, you basically know that that future state is not just to kind of connect.

Yeah, there's no future.

It basically will be nothing there. So, okay. And then you let it all go and the second you let it all go, you find the peace now.

You find the peace today, which is, which is the only place that it's ever been there.

You just weren't paying attention to it. And that's like, that's a, that's a really good one. So the part of the Founder's Guide to Living Every Week is to find the peace in the now. Yeah, find what you're seeking and wholeness.

I, I think wholeness is a—

I, I, and I think one of the biggest fears— you've written about this recently, like, around wholeness— is like, there's this weird fear, and I had it for a long time, of like, if I let go of the fear orientation and the future orientation, I will now— like, I won't be capable or successful or whatever. Um, and that's a really big one. And, and in my own experience, I've been very different And it's been the opposite of just like, actually, no, I'm creating the things I want to create. Um, and it's way more energizing and it feels way more sustainable to me.

And it's totally self-referential, right? It's like, I need some condition in the future to feel whole, right? If I feel whole now, then I won't be motivated to go create that condition in the future to feel whole. And it, like, we often don't realize the absurdity of the logic, but that's kind of how our system relates to it.

Um, well, I think we're taught it as kids, right?

Yeah. Yeah, it's— again, it's a lot of, I think, misguided attempts to show love for us by, by trying to control us to have the good outcome, the safe outcome, etc., that our parents or teachers or caregivers thought was like the right thing for us.

Yeah. All right, so let's just do a little recap check-in. So if you're Founder's Guide to Living Every Week Like It's Your Last.

Yeah, wait, can I add one thing before you recap so we can include it in our recap? There's something coming to mind about being fully authentic, which there's a lot of levels to that, but I just think if you knew you were going to die, like, you just stop the bullshit, you know? You just stop the mask, you stop pretending. Like, why would you? Yeah, which of course is always, I think, a good idea, but I think I want that to be part of the guide.

Yeah, yeah. So, well, I think we can do more. I'm just trying to— where it's being authentic, you would be very authentic because you only have a week to live. So why would you waste a minute being anything but the truth that's inside of you? Yeah, you'd likely be loving and especially appreciating people around you. Because you're like, you're not gonna see him next week. So you're like, hey, I really, I really appreciate that.

You know, and contributing.

Yeah. You would listen. Yeah. You'd contribute, listen. What did you say? You said listen to contribute or you'd listen to, yeah, listen to contribute.

Like listen through the lens of, okay, given what they're sharing with me, how, well, as you said, deeply and fully listen, you know, conscious listen. Um, and yeah, listen to contribute. Like, okay, how can I, contribute to their life and well-being.

Yeah, you would feel a sense of kind of preciousness in the, in a, you knowing it's finite, but you'd probably let go of scarcity. You'd probably let go of, you'd let go of some future vision for yourself because it would literally definitionally be gone, and you'd likely find peace in this moment, um, if you were, you know, if you were willing to give that up. Now you may feel a lot of fear too, um, and then Inherent goodness. Oh yeah, inherent goodness. You would feel that in yourself and others, that these little— everybody has their little flaws, their little, you know, bad habits, and like none of that shit would mean anything to you in this.

Yeah. And you might recognize they're just distortions, right? Like when people don't connect fully with who they really are, it comes out in these funny ways, but it's not— they're not— there's still inherent goodness. It's just being expressed in goofy ways.

I like that word. Distortions. Um, and then there was one other thing. Ah, it was just on the tip of my tongue.

Um, fully expressed, revealed.

Yeah. We said that, I think. Oh, oh, you, you would not, you literally would not do anything you didn't want to do and you would do the things you wanted to do. Now I say it that way. Cause like you may, there's an extreme of like, I'm quitting my job and I'm going to hang out with my family for the next week, which If you hate your job, that's what you would do because you wouldn't— now in my context or like in Steve Jobs' context, like I'm guessing he just didn't go to the like meetings he didn't like at Apple in his last month of life and he like hung out with the iPhone and played with the product because that's like, that's what brought it— like that's what lit him up. And, and like, I'm just even trying to picture myself in that. Like, yeah, I'd probably, I'd probably like cut a couple hours here and there every day, but I think I would still show up and actually want to be with the people and talk about the things we were doing. And I'd also want to like probably spend more one-on-one time with my kids. You know, I'm just thinking for myself like, okay, yeah, one-on-one time with them. I'd like, okay, let me go grab an hour and just take you somewhere and take an hour. And then of course you go, why don't I just do that now? If that's, if that's what I say. But that's, but that's the value of the exercise. But yeah, it's, you just wouldn't do like anything you didn't want to do and you would do the things you wanted to do.

Yeah, you stop entertaining any notion of should. Yeah, it's like, which again, I recommend that, you know, follow aliveness. Like, one of the things I talk to clients about, follow your authentic wants, follow aliveness. And it's a, in some way, it's a radical way to live and to lead. And I find it remarkably effective, um, both, you know, the obvious is like, well, you feel more alive, and the more alive and energized you are, that obviously has this amazing spillover to your team. But also it has this weird— it's not magic, but it feels like magical quality to it where, you know, I've seen teams where like they really just— there was some new programming language that, you know, came out and they were just like, they just wanted to play with it. And lo and behold, you know, 6 months later the market kind of moved in that direction and they had this competitive advantage because they'd been working with this technology for months. And it's, it's like there's a way in which aliveness is more intelligent than our, our ego, our intellectual mind. And that's a— I think that's a radical idea. And, you know, we could explore like, what is that? Why is that? Is that, you know, intuition, which is some kind of pattern recognition that's, you know, faster?

Yeah, that's like intuitive intelligence versus the brain intellectual intelligence.

Yeah. It's like, yeah, I just think so many people and founders over-rely on, on head, you know, intellect. And I think it's actually a pretty unreliable guide, you know, because so many of the stories are mindless.

They're not true. To viewing it as kind of like a petulant child, like that I don't trust necessarily, um, what it's saying. What?

And that's not always true, but there, yeah, there's discernment there between like, there are some clear mind kind of thoughts that come through, but most of the thoughts are what I think Michael Singer would call samsara. There are these karmic sort of patterns that actually aren't serving us.

What else belongs on this list of the last week? If you lived your life like it was your last— One we haven't talked about is I think you'd be way more bold. Than you, than you, than most founders typically are.

That's true.

You'd swing bigger. I think you would.

Yeah, you might just try things you otherwise haven't tried. Uh, more willingness to be uncomfortable, right? Because you want to have the full range of human experience before you go, which is, you know, again, you know, fear makes bad predictions, right? Fear-based stories tend to not be true. So whatever ways you have let like avoiding fear stop you, you might, you might start to see through and just be willing to take more risks. I think that's a good point. Which again, you know, why not now?

Right, right.

Live more boldly. Some of the things we've talked about already are more bold, to be fully revealed, to tell people you love them, to tell people you appreciate them. That is actually pretty scary for a lot of people to have that kind of intimacy. But also, I think you're pointing to like, yeah, different kinds of risks you might take. Again, not just for the sake of it, but like to be fully authentic, right? Like, what are you willing to risk, you know, for your full authenticity and aliveness? You know, it's hard for— so I was in this meditation retreat, you know, a couple of weeks ago, and he made this distinction. The teacher, Dustin DePerna, he made this distinction between ultimate benefit and relative benefit. Of course, you know, he's coming from the specific spiritual lens that ultimate benefit is helping people wake up to their true nature or recognize their true nature, and relative benefit is helping to make their, you know, their life better given their relative perspective as an individual self. And so especially for people who have a lot of fear around death, I think one thing that I would want someone to explore is what is our true nature? Who am I really? We did a bunch of meditation around the unfindability of the self.

Hmm.

And it's really powerful. For me, it was It was incredibly powerful to just— and Sam Harris talks about like, you know, look for the one who's looking. But, you know, we did some meditations around like, where is it?

Right?

The sense of self, like, where is it? Okay, it feels like it's in the back of your head. Okay, can you find it there? Like, well, there's some energy there, there's some sensations there. Is that the self? Is it in the thoughts? Well, the thoughts just kind of arise and pass. So like, is that the self?

Self.

We have an idea of self, like this Dave character and this history, but that's just an idea, concept, set of thoughts. Like, is that the self? Is it in the feelings? Is it in your body? Well, my body is totally different than it was when I was, you know, 10 years old, so it's not the body. So it's like, what— it's like, you know, Joe Hudson asks this question a lot, like, who are you essentially? And I think if I If someone had a week, I think that might be one of the most important questions to explore. Like, essentially meaning unchanging, right? What's the thing you've always been, right? You know, 5 years old, 10 years old, 20 years old, you know, to now. And, you know, these— they're just words, but most people, when they really investigate that question, what they discover is just— it's just this awareness, right? And, and, you know, back to like the chair and the hallway moving, it's basically, it's timeless awareness, right? It's just like, like time moves around it, right? Life events occur, but it's sort of this like timeless awareness. And again, as a concept, that's marginally useful, but if you can really get a felt sense of that, there is a way that, at least for For me, it lessens the fear around death because what dies is all the things that are already dying every moment, right? It's all the kind of sensations and emotions that are unique to this sense of self. And awareness itself doesn't go anywhere. I think if you and I both listen to this Ram Dass talk where he's talking to like his guru and his guru's about to die and they're all like, oh, you know, don't leave us. And he's like, don't be silly, where would I go?

Yeah. What? So, but how would you apply that to this question of like, how does— I'm a founder, I'm listening to this, what do I do?

Well, I mean, to be honest, when I heard this distinction about ultimate benefit versus relative benefit, it definitely hit something in me because What I do, you know, through a certain lens, everything I do, uh, maybe everything every human does ultimately could lead to this kind of recognizing our true nature, right? You know, recognizing awareness, right? But, you know, I think about a little bit more directly, um, sometimes in some conversations I'm talking to clients about Who are you essentially?

Right.

And starting to see through some of the kind of, you know, the illusory nature of some of the things that we hold as really solid that actually aren't that solid. And even quantum physics is revealing this, right? Like this table, this computer, it's all just energy moving, right? So, this is science. This is not some mystical or mythical idea. So, just starting to look at that. Now, other times we're talking a little bit more about, "Okay, how can I work out more and how can I lead more effectively and grow my business?" All that. So, I guess for me when I— I guess when I ask this question for myself, there's something for me and this is again, maybe it's just more about you know, this being, but there's something about moving from thinking about relative benefit of like making my personality and my life better, to ultimate benefit about waking up to true nature. So I guess I'm thinking if you really had a week to live, might be a good time to start exploring these deeper questions about your true nature and who are you essentially. Right. Which then might lead you to, well, maybe now would be a good time to start exploring that, right? Because if ultimately all of our human suffering is a symptom of identifying as a separate self, rather than continuing to play this game of trying and trying and trying to change the conditions, starting to explore these deeper questions of who am I essentially and kind of waking up to identifying with something that transcends and includes the individual self. It's not like it goes away, but sort of transcends it. Might be a good use of your time and energy. And then the sort of paradox is then you still might choose to grow your startup, and it's not like you're just gonna— you know, I'm not interested in becoming a monk and living in a cave. And I guess there's the term like to be in the world but not of the world. I think there's something really powerful when you can kind of hold that wider perspective on what's going on here. And then still, you might just for as a creative act, choose to build a company or make a movie or build a family or whatever. We are creative beings.

We still like to create. You know, these, if you're open to it, I think just for people listening, like, these breakthroughs are not— it's hard to describe, but like, they're momentary. Like, they can happen in moments. They don't, you know, you can wait, you can— this inquiry you're talking about, it doesn't— some people go, oh, I got to work on myself. And it's like, and actually in many ways Ram Dass talks about this a lot too, is like, anything where you have to like work on yourself for 6 months to get it, whether it's how you eat, whether it probably means you're still using ego. You haven't made the shift because the things that fall away, they fall away pretty naturally, but they can happen instantaneously by having a realization. And everyone— I realize it's like everyone— yeah, when I quit my job on Wall Street, I have this story I tell where I got another offer immediately and I felt sick to my stomach of the idea of getting another badge and having another. And it was like, at the moment I didn't get it, but I was like, oh, that was like, I didn't have to like debate the question of whether I was ready to start a company. Like it was just so clear to me. I think if you actually start reflecting, your, some of your biggest decisions in life usually are, were momentary things. They were not things that you had to like labor against.

Moments of insight or clarity.

Yeah.

Yeah. And you know, Joe Hudson has this masterclass and one of the distinction he, he makes is he calls it Authenticity Over Improvement. And if you unpack it, it's really about like self-discovery instead of self-improvement, which is similar to what you're pointing to. It's like, you know, exploring the question of like, what or who am I authentically, as opposed to trying to improve this personality. And, you know, there's some sort of spiritual teachers and maybe not spiritual teachers who say anything that can be improved is not your authentic self.

Right, right.

So, it's what you're pointing to. Now, it doesn't mean not a good idea to improve your behaviors and eat healthier. And so, a lot of people hear these things as like either/or. It's just where you're coming from, right? The view that you're coming from, you know, context is way more important ultimately than the content. And from a certain view, you could still choose to improve the behavior of this individual self. It just comes from a much wider lens than like, that is the purpose of life is to just optimize this kind of self.

All right. I think we have a pretty good guide here.

I like it. Yeah, what a powerful idea. Live like— what if you were to live and lead as if this was your last week?

Yeah, and if your first response to that is, well, I wouldn't be doing it, I think there's like— that's the really powerful form of inquiry to start.

One thing that, uh, I know we're about to wrap here, well, I just I was just imagining a founder who's sitting here listening to all this, and I guess the skeptical view of like, yes, but is this going to make my company successful? And well, one, I would— I think it will. It's probably dependent on— If building this company is actually authentic for you, I think you'll be more authentic, more authentic, more successful the more authentic you are in all the ways that we've talked about.

And I think, I think, I think your challenge or your experiment is a great thing to leave everybody with, which is like some of the things we said, don't, don't take our word for it. Go try it.

Yeah. Try it out.

Appreciate some of the people a little bit more. Try to listen to contribute a little bit more. Try to be slightly more present in the conversations and tell us, you know, does it, does it, does it work even if you do it, if you up it by 20% on some of the things we talked about.

Agreed.

All right.

What are we talking about next week?

The higher intelligence, intuitive intelligence versus the brain intelligence. I love that. All right.

Looking forward to it.

Yeah.