When Leaders Ignore Incivility, They Protect the Problem.

All right, so I want to start today's conversation off with someone who's very special to me. You know, we have been around for some time now, about 10 years. And what's really cool about this conversation— so I was thinking about this today— when we first met and I was just getting into the training space, you were one of the first people to participate in my trainings in a healthcare setting. And you're the first one to sit in the seat and have an official conversation with us.

Mm-hmm.

about this topic today. And you're coming to us today with over 30 years of experience in healthcare and leadership, have a doctorate degree in health and science. You know, chief, you was the chief nursing exec for healthcare organization and COO.

Right.

And today you currently sit as a CEO. I just wanna introduce the audience today to the lovely Dr. Nicole Barnett.

Thank you so much, DB. It's really an honor to be here with you today. I didn't realize I was the first from that history of your evolution through EI 365 to be in this seat, but I'm really glad to be here today having a conversation with you.

You've been trailblazing throughout your career, so, you know, this is just another space that you've gotten into where you're leading the charge. And so we're going to set the tone around just a conversation about workplace civility. You and I also are doing some some work together. And so I want to talk a little bit about that, about the impact. Like, why would you think that that was even important? And it's not just in where you are now. In past spaces, you thought that it was important. Leaders and their teams include in their conversations, in their work, in their decision-making, right? We were, we were focused a lot on emotional intelligence back then. And so now we've kind of amplified into what we call civility intelligence. And so today's conversation would be kind of centered around that. But I would kind of prompt you by asking you, like, why is emotional intelligence, being civil, why is that even important? Is that a thing? Am I just making this up, or is this really a thing?

I think it really is a thing. Emotional intelligence is where it all started. I think that's the foundation, and that definitely is the content that you brought to us and that I was so interested in seeing you weave that through many of the departments that I was leading at the time. And most importantly, I remember seeing the transformation in individuals and in teams after they had that exposure to emotional intelligence and to the very concrete and practical tools that you would offer that help people put 2 and 2 together in terms of why am I feeling this way, why am I showing up this way, why am I getting a certain response from the way that I'm showing up, and to see people actually take accountability. And then be able to move on and do better and see teams really turn around. So that was powerful. Every single team that you came and you worked with, there was powerful transformation. I think now I love the way you have taken emotional intelligence and evolved that into the realm of civility, especially in healthcare.

Mm.

In healthcare, we've talked about incivility a lot, and we haven't talked about civility enough. We've talked about the ways we don't communicate well, the ways that we disrespect respect one another, the ways that we marginalize people out of communications. There's literature around how incivility in healthcare settings and in healthcare teams can actually lead to patient safety issues.

Mm.

Because if we're not talking correctly to one another, if we're not dispelling information to one another correctly, we either misconstrue the information, we don't have clarity in the conversation. More importantly, we emotionally block out the person. who's being incivil, and then we don't do what we need to do for the patient, right? So then there's been work and there's a lot of studies around what is incivility and how to recognize it, but I haven't seen as much work in what you're doing, which is, here's what you do about the incivility. Here's how you recognize it. Here's how you mitigate it. Here's how you address it. Here's how you eliminate it. And I think that's what's so powerful about what you're doing, especially in the healthcare space.

Thank you. Thank you for that. Because when we start thinking about this work, to your point, no shortage of people telling you what it is and even suggesting why it might be happening, but we didn't see enough of the how.

Yeah.

And so by us creating, already having the EI Code of Conduct, which we had already set as a standard of behavior, you know, our school of thought was, In organizations, right, everybody has their SOPs, right? That's right.

Standard operating procedures.

And when you think about, well, why do we have those, right? The idea is that so we all be on the same page. Like when it's time to do this thing, whatever it is, if you read it, you read it, you read it, you understand it, we will all be moving, right, in the same, going the same direction. But then we, we We run into people who don't follow the SOPs, right? And then we end up with some form of liability or mistake or conflict because you have, we talk about the personality styles, you have a gold who it's like, no, this is what it says, so we should be doing it that way. And then you have the orange who was like, ah, it's so many other ways to do it, right? But then when it comes to our own personal behavior—

Yeah.

Most people haven't taken the time to set a standard.

Mm-hmm.

In our research, we just realized that when it comes to adult behavior, you know, adults think we exempt from it, right? Because of age, because of experience. Nobody really wants to talk about their own behavior. And so we realized, obviously, in a way, that was kind of the Achilles heel in a lot of teams' and leaders' growth. Because it'd be those subtle things. When you talk about incivility, it's those subtle behaviors that start to compound that create stuff. So, you know, that's why this is a very important conversation. So I'm gonna ask you, like, what are you noticing about, you know, how people are behaving under pressure in the workplace in today's time? What are some things you're noticing?

Depending on the personality type, people respond to emergencies or pressures in different ways.

Mm-hmm.

Some people will respond to pressure and feel like, oh, I'm— I need to have an answer before I go to the boss. I need to have this figured out. I need to understand what's happening and why, and I need to have a plan before I say anything to the boss. The challenge with individuals who do that is they delay reporting what's happening. And they don't allow other voices or other folks to step in and help them with whatever they're under pressure for. And the problem can also compound, you know? So I've seen sometimes that is a response. Other folks under a very small amount of pressure wanna take it straight up the flagpole. Hey, this is happening and it's happening now. What do I do?

Are they CCing everybody? Everybody.

The entire— yeah, the entire organization is CC'd.

Right.

But they want to make sure everybody's in the know. Now, and when that happens, I have to think about, is this individual really in distress because they haven't seen this kind of a challenge before, or is this someone who is calling out in distress for another reason? Is this why they're CCing everybody or running a small— what looks to me as a small thing all the way up the flagpole? And it reminds me of a tool that you've helped my team adapt to, and that's the the skill versus will. And maybe this is an individual I need to pay attention to. Maybe in this type of situation, this is a low skill but a high will opportunity.

Yeah.

The skill's not there. This is not the way to escalate or address this. But clearly you understand that this is something that needs to be addressed and you want to let, you know, lean into this. And so you're running it up the flagpole. I see that as high will.

Yeah.

So overall, that's positive. It's about coaching that individual into the right ways of dealing with a stressful situation. So it's all about receiving the report of the distress from whichever direction it comes from and then determining how to move forward. Now, if it's a situation where it's an emergency, I go straight into hospital command center mode. That's how I was trained as a nurse. That's how I was trained as an executive of a hospital. You go into hospital command center mode and you get very directive if it's an emergency. Say there's a bus crash on 80 and we got a bunch of patients coming in, or There's an earthquake or whatever, it means, okay, command center, who's in charge? Where's the information coming from? What decisions are we making? How are we executing? Boom, boom, boom, boom. I can worry about feelings later.

Yeah.

In that situation, right? But when we have time to really consider and use it as a coaching moment, I definitely lean into that.

No, I appreciate you taking a moment to feel like, let me assess where this is coming from, right? Because that's important, 'cause you don't always, You take the time to let it breathe a little bit before you respond.

Mm-hmm.

You know, everybody doesn't stop and give some consideration to the reaction they're about to put out there. So to have that definitely shows that you are practicing what you've been picking up over the years. And also remember having a conversation with someone before who we're talking about being toxic. They throw that word around a lot. I had an opportunity to talk to somebody, you know, off to the side who came to me kind of going through some things, and we're talking about being toxic, and she actually admitted that she was the toxic one.

I was wondering when you were going to get to that.

Yeah.

Because oftentimes it's the person who is the source of the toxicity that is experiencing and noticing the toxicity in the environment, but then reflecting it back and saying, oh, this is toxic, or that person was toxic, when actually it began with them.

Yeah, yeah. And I actually—

You gotta put it in the atmosphere first.

Exactly. And she said, oh yeah, when I'm toxic, when I was that person, she was like, I also, that's why I joked about the CC. She was like, I'm always thinking about how can I get you, right? So something happens, they're like, it's a got you moment. Like, I'm about to let everybody know, right? And so when we talk about behaviors, a lot of people don't realize that You might be trying to get somebody at the top, but the impact, the ripple effect of everybody that has to observe this is making them feel a certain kind of way. And we don't like to talk about how people are feeling at work. It's like they, they like to make us think that somehow it's separate.

Yeah.

But if I'm in my feelings about something, you know, it's going to factor in at the very minimum how I process Yeah. What you say to me, how I respond to it, how much I give, how much I hold back. I could have some good information too that I'm not sharing because I'm in my feelings about things. And so I think, like you said, promoting civility, um, and just like for clarity, is about being able to be courteous and respectful, specifically in challenging, intense situations. We want to promote that. We want you to practice being respectful and courteous, but we also want you to know it ain't gonna always flow like you want it to, and that's where we need you to really be at, right? Not make an excuse of why you didn't put down your civil hat, right? And so that's what we want to try to really promote, and we already know what the incivility part of it, those type of behaviors.

You gave another side of that. I mean, the side I was leaning towards was the low skill, high will. I'm bringing everyone in because I really want to get to the solution and be a part of this. But the other side of that is, like you said, it's intense, but it's often intentional. And when it's intense and intentional, that's the person with that long memory who's holding on to a hurt and who sees an opportunity, and now I can expose this person, this situation, whatever, and redeem myself from whatever that hurt was. And in the meantime, everybody else has forgotten about whatever that thing was that they're holding on to, and now they've created a whole new problem.

Yeah.

And a whole new set of circumstances that the whole team has to respond to. I see that more often in teams that are together, or folks that are together in their journey, their leadership journey, or their work journey over years, because those long memories— they'll remember 5 years ago, I remember that time when you cut me off in the staff meeting, or whatever, you said I didn't have a good idea, but you're still in the same team, or you're still in the same department or same facility 5 years later, and they've held on to it.

Yeah.

And they bring back around, they look for opportunities, and sometimes those intentional intense opportunities come up, and they're like this, this cut, this death by a thousand cuts.

Yes, yes.

I'm gonna get you here, and I'm gonna get you there, and I'm gonna talk about you behind your back there. I'm gonna, I'm gonna show that you made a mistake and had a typo in an email. Every little, the nitpicky, right? But there's this undercurrent of incivility that becomes a toxic toxic situation, and sometimes they just don't have the bravery to speak to it directly and say, this is where it's coming from. I also recall in one of the sessions you did— this was many years ago with one of my teams— we had an individual like that who was— who would be the death by a thousand cuts kind of thing, pointing out the flaws in everybody else, every opportunity she had. And in a situ— in one of the sessions afterwards, I remember towards the end she was breaking down in tears.

Mm-hmm.

And she came up to you and she admitted, I realize it's me. It's me, you know, and I gotta let this stuff go. Now, did she actually let it all go?

She tried. She's working on it.

She's probably still working on it. She got better.

Right, right.

But it was amazing to see her have that epiphany, that she realized she was holding on to stuff. And in some cases, some of those people had moved on, you know, or had even forgot or weren't even fully aware that they had caused hurt in the first place, and she was holding on to it.

One of the things that we talk about when we get in front of teams, we talk about holding grudges.

Yes.

Right? We ask that question about holding grudges. But as you were talking, it made me think about one of the exercises that we've done with your team, your most recent team, called the Civility Mirror. And I want to ask you, what do you think— so part of the exercise is asking people kind of take a nostalgic walk back to their interview self, right? Because, you know, when we're all in our interview mode, we want this opportunity, right? You know, well, we put our best representation of ourself. And I'm not gonna say that it's not real, right? Like, you have dug deep to come in front of whomever.

Yeah.

to say, hey, I'm the person for the job. So then there's the meeting behind the meeting. You get selected.

Yeah.

You even come in and during your orientation, you just, you bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, right? Not much you can, you ask me to do whatever, I'm in.

Right.

But then some time goes by and all of a sudden I start challenging things or I'm questioning or I don't wanna do it or I'm complaining. What happens to us? How do you get to a person who came in very optimistic, high will, high skilled, right, to end up in a low will, low skilled conversation? What do you think happens in between that time?

I think there are a lot of things that happen, or there are missed opportunities for a full assessment of the readiness of that person for that role. In some situations, I've had conversations with people over the years where I've had to sit them down and say, I'm waiting for the person that I interviewed to show up.

You said that before?

Yes, more than once. I'm thinking of more than one situation where I've had that conversation and just to concretely say, this is how you presented yourself, but this is what I'm waiting to see in the workplace, or this is what I'm missing.

How did they respond to that?

In some cases, I can distinctly remember one case where we had several conversations where we came to a mutual agreement that it just wasn't a fit. And then I can think of 2 of those now. And then came to an agreement with that individual about, now what does it mean for you to exit as well as you entered?

Mm.

How do I help you find your fit elsewhere, whether it's in the organization, outside of the organization? Here's the skills I see that you have. Here's the ones you'd like to aspire to but that you don't have yet, and maybe you can grow into somewhere else. In other cases, it doesn't go that well. The person challenges you, and they don't want to hear what you're saying. But even in those moments, sometimes if I'm clear about what the expectations are, even if they don't like the fact that I said it that clearly, that I'm waiting for the person that I interviewed to show up, at least they understand the expectation. And they might leave the meeting pouting, but they're gonna work on it.

Yeah.

And I've seen people work on it and then do better. But I think at some point leaders have to take responsibility. Did I miss something in the interview? Did this person oversell themselves or did I just not bring my full self to this interview to really assess for the person that I wanted? And then what were my assessment tools for their readiness? Was there— did I need them to do a presentation during the interview? Was there maybe a business case analysis I should have provided as part of the interview? What other expectations I had and I didn't put that person through that test?

Hmm.

And all I did was interview a nice person. And I hired a nice person and then told them, now you really got to Show me what you can do.

Right.

But yeah, I think as a leader, it's tough having those conversations. But, and you have to come with data. You have to come into the conversation and not just say, I'm sorry, you're not a fit. You're going to have to move on. You have to say, you know, these are the things I expected and I'm not seeing. And in order for you to fully be a fit for this role, here's the job description once again. Let's remind ourselves. Then let's talk about how you're going to meet these expectations. And then let's come back together next week and talk. And here's an assignment I'm giving you. We'll check in on it a month from now. You know, those type of things to help them have an opportunity to see what is it gonna look like for me to stay in this role, add value, and continue to grow. Because you can't be mad at me if I'm holding you to the job description you applied for, that you wanted, that you interviewed beautifully for.

Yeah.

Right? Right? And if I'm gonna help you, for instance, there's one person I recall, was really challenged with technology tools, just basic office technology tools, and was in a role where they had to support other leaders to create presentations and things like that. And they were struggling with it. So I offered that person a class so they could learn that rather than struggling to learn it at home on their own and fuddle through it, you know? And they did better, you know?

Yeah, so when we're talking about civility or incivility, right, like, which is rooted in behavior, and you're seeing a behavior problem, like you kind of framed it a little bit and you was like, okay, this is not gonna work.

Yeah.

So I'm not just gonna kick you out without no clothes or anything, right? I'ma, I wanna look out for you on the way out just 'cause you're not a fit here. You know, I still want you to eat, right? You just won't eat at this table, right? But how do you prepare yourself, number one, you don't come off as rude or disrespectful, right? Even in a challenging situation. And to prepare yourself to engage in that, 'cause even in our conversation with some of our leaders, we talked about, we talked about like, what holds you back? What is the thing that keeps a person from having that difficult conversation? How would you be able to help someone who's sitting right now, right? They have a behavior problem, right?

Yeah.

And they got to get engaged in that conversation. What are some of the things you do to prepare for that?

First of all, I'd acknowledge that it's not easy. Nobody wants to run headlong into having those conversations. If they do, that's, that's a whole nother problem. Then you always want to, you know, engage in things that are very emotionally difficult and are going to cause people to be upset. You know there's going to be some feelings out of it. So first I would acknowledge that, and then I would say, what is it going to cost you not to deal with it? You're going into work every day, you know that you have a behavior problem on your team, you know that it's having consequences in the overall culture of the team. What is it costing you every day for that to continue? And what is it costing you in your own happiness and your, in your role and your own effectiveness? And I think most importantly as a leader, what is it costing you in terms of your credibility? Because everyone else is watching you.

Yes.

And they're expecting the leader to step in and do something about it, to protect them from incidents. And to protect them from a toxic work environment. And if the leader is allowing it, what does that say about you? And are you losing credibility with the team? So I would say, one, acknowledge it ain't easy. Yeah, it's hard. Gotta toughen up and do it. But secondly, what is it costing you not to do it?

That hits right on my next question. I'm gonna say it anyway in case you want to add anything, but the question was like, what's at risk?

Yeah.

When behavior issues are unaddressed in the workplace. So you just hit it, there's a cost to it though. But is there anything else you can think about when I hit it straight to you? Like, well, what's at risk when these type of behaviors or behavior issues go unaddressed in the workplace? What's some more stuff that comes up for you? Because we want anyone who watches this to be like, you know what, I didn't even think about that. I didn't even think about that. Because people always talk about like the bottom line, this and that, whatever. I think there's more risk than just a bottom line number, right? So what comes up for you on that?

So going back to the credibility piece.

I like that.

As a leader, you're responsible for big goals, big decisions. You're responsible to deliver on that bottom line, but you can't do that by yourself, right? So when your credibility is lost, you lose your mandate for leadership. People don't— they're not interested in supporting you and they start to check out. And then productivity and performance begins to erode at every level in your organization. So now you think about managing up to your higher-ups. You got to explain to them why your part of the organization isn't performing.

Hmm.

And are you going to pinpoint that back to the fact that you didn't deal with the toxic situation? You were uncomfortable having the right conversations and holding behavioral accountability, and now that has caused a toxic relationship. relationships that pervade within the culture that now it's impacting performance and it's making you look like a bad leader. I think we have to remember that the higher up you go on the ladder, the less control, direct control you have—

Yes.

Of the outcomes and the key performance indicators, right? You've got a spreadsheet and you've got all the Harvey Balls, red and green and what's going up, what's going down, but the way you get them to green is you engage and you inspire people towards that mission. And they have to believe in your leadership to come to work every day and give them— give the best that they possibly can. And when you've allowed a toxic relationship or a toxic culture to pervade, it actually erodes your leadership. And you'll be the one that's getting the conversation around whether or not you're a fit for the role that you're in.

That's good. That's good. Okay, that's good. Thanks for that. That brings me to another thought. So what's the one change that you made to better the way you manage things, right? And how you handle your own behavior when it comes to communication. So what's a specific change that you had to make? If you think about how you once handled things and how you handle them now, what's one change you had to make?

I think there's a lot of changes that I've had to make. I think one was self-awareness. I think when you engage in the type of training that you have and the educational materials you have, there's really that foundation of self-awareness and being willing to face, you know, some of the things you know you need— you're going to learn that you need to work on. I think oftentimes we psychologically protect ourselves from that and just keep working and hope things turn out.

Mm-hmm.

And you're not really paying attention to what's happening in your own body and your own emotions, how that's impacting you physically, emotionally, mentally. And you've got to have that self-awareness piece. I think that— and it takes courage. So that was a part. I think the other part for me was investing in some coaching. I think some people think because I'm a great— it's like, let's say if you were the A student in school.

Mm-hmm.

You didn't need a coach to be the A student, but maybe you did. Maybe you needed a tutor for some things and you became an A student. It's the same thing in your career. You know, think of that coach as a tutor, someone who helps you along. someone who's been on the journey or been exposed to things that you haven't and can help you avoid some of the pitfalls that they experienced and prepare you to be the kind of leader that you envision yourself to be. So it doesn't mean you're weak, you know, when you take on coaching. I think it's an important investment in yourself. So those are a couple of key things that I've done. And then I'm constantly learning. I'm constantly tapping into things I can read, watch, or listen to that are helping me become the best possible leader that I can be. The most profound thing, and I did this yesterday with my team, most profound thing is I took advantage of an opportunity just to get some direct feedback from my management team on a topic, on something I felt I was struggling with. And they were kind enough and gave me enough grace to give me some time for them to— for me to unpack what I was working on as a leader.

Yeah.

And how I wanted to show up as a leader. But where I felt like in myself, I felt like I wasn't meeting my own expectation of this, and they gave me some great feedback. But I think you have to evolve to the point where number one, you're not afraid to take the feedback because it could be, you're right, Nicole, you're not doing a good job.

That's funny you should ask.

And then even if it does come that, you know, there's something, here's how you could do better, be able to receive that, right? Be able to receive that feedback because really feedback is a gift. It really is. Even when it stings, it's a gift.

It is. And it's funny because my brother and I were talking earlier and I was telling him about just running an organization, running our own agency. And as an entrepreneur, you get to a point where you feel like you've brought yourself about as far as you can take yourself, right? So, you know, that saying is what got you here won't get you there. And he was like, well, do you have a mentor? I was like, well, not officially. I got people I talk to. And he was like, You need a mentor. You need somebody, you need to be coached, you know. And so to your point, like, you, you'd be the A student in your ring and your realm, and then you start to realize like, oh, you know what, I need someone else to start unlocking, right, and give me that, that feedback. Um, you're hitting on a couple of key points too. We talk about those hidden drivers of influence.

Yeah.

Like strengthening your influence, right? You are, you are very, uh, dialed into credibility. Like, you know how important that is. We talked about that in one of those levers, like leaders don't realize how important it is to be credible.

Yes.

And not 'cause you think you're credible, right? Your people got to— Right, you can't determine yourself.

Yeah, you can't be here.

You can't go out there and say, I'm credible. Right, you gotta earn that. You earn that. Connection was another lever in that. You opening up and saying, hey, let me know where I'm at.

Yeah.

Ladies and gentlemen, that's a connection piece. They're like, oh, she, she, our feedback matters and she's ready for it. And so like, those are great, you know, approaches, I think, you know, to lead. But you gotta, you can't be in your feelings.

No.

Right?

You cannot. And I love what you said about mentors. Mentors are a gift as well.

Yeah.

Take advantage of mentorship. You don't have to, sometimes people think, oh, I have to have one mentor at a time or a very formal program of mentoring with specific specific outlines and goals. Like you said, sometimes a mentor is someone that you have a conversation with.

Mmhmm.

You know, sometimes I mentor people and I'll say, do you just want a coffee chat, or do we need to set up a series of a few meetings because you're working on something big? The other thing that is even more powerful is out of those mentors that you build relationships with and they help you grow, they see what you accomplish with their help and support, those mentors then become your sponsors. And sponsors are important because those are those people, especially if you're sort of like in an organization with executives and different levels, those sponsors are in executive rooms where they get to talk about you and they get to talk about what you've accomplished and what they see in you and your potential. They talk about you in rooms where you are not present.

Yeah.

That's a sponsor.

Yeah, for sure.

Next thing you know, people are calling you, hey, could we talk about that project you've been working on? Or I heard that you really moved the business development needle, you know, in your area, in your portfolio, and I want to talk about how you did that. Next thing you know, you're not applying for jobs anymore. Yeah, people are calling you up, tapping you on the shoulder. I think you should look into this opportunity here, right? So those sponsors are powerful. So if you never open yourself up to a mentor, you're not going to get to a sponsor.

That's fair. Yeah, that's fair. That's good. That's good. That's a gem right there. Somebody gonna benefit from that. Yeah, somebody's gonna benefit from that. So we're talking about civility, incivility. We're talking about the behaviors that drive it. This school of thought around civility intelligence, right? And so I want to ask you, on a tough day, right? This is easy when everything's in flow, but on a tough day for you, what does leading with civility look like? Right, so whatever a tough day, however you define it, but just give yourself like the— reflect back to your toughest moment. Like, what does still being able to lead with civility look like?

A tough day is when I hear about something or I get a report of something that is so disturbing to me and so outside of what I would have done in the same situation, or so disappointing because I thought of this person or this situation differently. And to hear that, wow, this happened on my watch in my organization, I really have to take a pause because you, you know, your, your mind goes there because you're so disappointed that you really just want to go into confrontation mode and say, how dare you?

Mm-hmm.

How dare you? If I get a complaint from a patient, for instance, and I hear, wow, this is the scenario that happened to you and you weren't treated with kindness and respect, I wanna go confront someone about it.

Which is fair.

And those are tough days because I'm so deeply committed to making sure that patients are treated with dignity and with respect and with equity. And when I hear that people are giving that lip service in front of me, but then something else is actually happening in practice, oh my goodness.

Let me jump in right here 'cause this is super important. Because when we talk about beliefs, Right? Because you have a strong belief about how people need to be treated. And when you see that not happening, no matter how nice and respectful and this beautiful smile and this calmness you give us, like, don't get it twisted, right? That you have the ability to rise up and lean in.

Mm-hmm.

but you choose not to, that's where people need to help them. How do you— what happens with you when you— because again, you have a strong belief, you know what you signed up for, you know what you're supposed to be doing, and you see somebody blatantly not doing it.

Yeah.

That doesn't make you feel good inside. And it makes, you know, a lot of us like to be like that Richmond or that Oakland or wherever your background from. Richmond, right? You know, well, I was called— I knew Richmond. I was doing the cadence. Your Richmond, my Oakland, right? But I know we go draw from somewhere, right? What stops you? What stops you from, you know what I'm saying, smacking, you know what I'm saying? You know, because there's a choice.

There's a choice. There's a choice. And I don't want to go into a tongue-lashing that's going to make the person feel ashamed because there's a reason why they did what they did. I mean, I can think of situations that Something as maybe seem outwardly as simple as telling someone, you're parked in the yellow zone and you gotta leave right now, and not paying attention to the fact that someone is trying to get a wheelchair-bound family member out and inside, right? And they just need a few minutes in the yellow zone, right? That's that gold security guard.

You're not supposed to park here at all, and I don't wanna hear nothing else.

But then you need someone with that blue, the streak of blue, to come and say, okay, let's look at the whole situation here, because they're not even paying attention to the fact that there is a mobility situation here. So when I hear about something like that after the fact, then I'm like, oh, so disappointed because of a missed opportunity to provide excellent, respectful service because someone was so much in their, in their goal. So I have to pause and realize this person wasn't just trying to be mean or disrespectful. They're following a rule that they were told, this is your job to enforce this rule of this yellow zone.

And that's it.

And that's it, and that's all.

Not on my watch.

So I have to take a deep breath before entering into that conversation to honor the fact that, yeah, that's the expectation you were provided. But let's talk about extenuating circumstances. And our overarching mission is to provide great care and to do it with dignity and respect. So let's talk about how we do both.

Yeah, there you go. Let's zoom out a little bit.

Zoom out. Exactly. But in that first moment when it first gets reported to me, oh, like, what?

Yes. And I think when we talk about balancing this conversation, the skill of what you just said, being able to zoom out, take it all under consideration. What I did hear, because I know that you, you, you, you know, you have the gold, but you also have a strong blue. So you, the blue in you was like, Even though you just messed up, I don't want to make you feel bad.

Exactly.

That's not my goal. That's not, that's not what I— that's not how I want to show up. And so I think that leaders and even people on teams need to be very aware, you know what I'm saying, on what, what triggers them, right? What they have strong beliefs about, what characteristics that they operate through so that they can make The decisions to get the— I like to say the best outcome in every situation. I don't want to hang my hat on a good or a bad because I don't really know, but I know I can get a best outcome out of a bad situation if my intention is there.

And the blue in me doesn't just want to avoid making you feel bad or to make sure that you don't feel ashamed. I mean, that's part of it, but it's really because People don't— people aren't able to be their best self and work, do their best work if they're coming to work every day fearful.

Yeah.

Nicole chopped me up because I yelled at the lady in the yellow zone. And so now they're going to be even more fearful and not do a good job and maybe let everybody in the yellow zone tomorrow because they're afraid of getting chopped up again. So it really is about making sure that people can continue to do their work but understand the expectations. Because nobody does their best work or learns best in an environment of fear.

No.

And I'm not trying to instill fear.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I just thought about something. When I did a lot of leadership work for the department I worked for, I remember the time when I realized that my words were heavier than I thought.

Yes.

Because you're a very courteous and respectful person, so you probably don't think that the things you say are so heavy. Have you— can you think any times where you like, You said the littlest thing and you didn't— there was no intention and somebody was like you said, oh, the CEO said X, Y, and Z and took it too far. That's another thing of responsibility. So you ever thought about it, ever reflect on moments like that?

I can remember points of inflection along my career when my words held more and more weight. And when there was more and more of people pointing to, well, Nicole said so.

Yeah.

So then this must be true. Or even just an opinion. I mean, it could be something as silly as the meeting should be at 10 instead of 11.

Yeah.

Oh, all the meetings need to be at 11 because Nicole said so. It's like, and then I hear later that people are moving things around to have a meeting at 11, and I didn't intend for it to be that big of a deal. So I have to be really, really careful, have learned to be really, really careful, especially like in the last 10 years of my career where I felt that happening more and more so that I was really clear in my communication so people didn't walk away feeling that anything I said was a directive.

Yeah.

Most of what I say is going to be up for consideration, discussion. I'm that kind of a leader. There are very few things that it's black and white, cut and dry, regulatory requirement. This is just— we got to do it. Most of what we talk about, I'm open to discussion. But it's the way that you deliver it, I think, sometimes, and taking the time to invite feedback and to invite discussion or to invite another perspective so that people know that what you're sharing, which is just my opinion most of the time, is not a directive.

There you go. That's good. That's good. All right, so I'm gonna land this conversation in a few seconds, but when we talk about incivility, I think that sometimes people don't know what it actually looks like.

Mm-hmm.

Like, part of our strategy in education is to be able to call out some of the behaviors that are directly related to incivility, right? So we have our behavior observation tool that we ask leaders and their team to take some observation. Have you seen these behaviors in your work environment? Because if you have, This is directly related to incivility. And so how much of it have you seen? And so I'm going to throw out a couple of the behaviors to you, ask you, have you seen them? And then this is what comes to mind when, when I throw them out, like a little, uh, a little rapid fire.

Okay.

Incivility rapid fire, you know, throw out there, right? So gossiping and negative energy, have you ever seen that on your journey?

Yeah.

And what's the impact of that?

So I've seen that at every level of an organization. I've seen that with folks at the front line with gossiping. I've seen it with gossiping that comes across a little bit— it's still gossiping, but in higher levels of leadership, I've seen people engage in that sort of talking about another leader or another department or whatever and presenting it as if they're just offering their perspective or asking a question. don't you think that such-and-so? No, you're gossiping.

Yeah.

That's not a productive conversation, right? They're looking to gauge whether or not you believe what they believe.

Yeah.

And then using that as political capital to go into another conversation to advance whatever objective they have. And that's, uh, leaders should be very careful about, you know, about that when you're asked to weigh in on things like that. But it just, just as you said that, it kind of gave me a visceral reaction, you know, because it is so pervasive and it's harmful and it can destroy an individual's career. And gossip typically has no real basis in fact. It's just, you know, someone's perception, you know, and they're sharing it with people that they think, especially people they think that have the credibility and leadership to then repeat that perception. And then that becomes that person's reality.

Yeah.

And the next thing they know, They're not getting tapped for promotions, they're not being provided opportunities, they're being excluded from meetings and they don't know why. And it could have come from someone's perception that turned into gossip.

Okay, so how do we— so that's the incivility side. So one of the— we talk about we want to neutralize incivility. We're not going to act like it doesn't happen. We know it's going to happen.

It happens.

So how would one neutralize that moment? So if someone's watching, they're like, I'm dealing with gossiping right now. It has to slow down somewhere.

It does.

So which would be your words of wisdom to neutralize incivility, no matter what level you're on? If it comes to you, if gossiping comes to you, we're letting you know right now, whoever's watching, that this is part of incivility. You might have thought it was just normal. You might have thought it was part of the culture. You may come from a family who just be talking crazy about each other all the time. So we understand, but we're saying today that is a form of incivility. How would you guide somebody to neutralize that?

Recognize it when you see it. Recognize it and then be prepared to respond to it because typically, you know, gossips are also cowards. And so they're gonna come to you one-on-one and ask you what you think. They're not gonna say it in front of a big group of people or whatever. They're gonna go one-on-one, this person, that person, that person, A whole lot of whispers. Exactly, a whole lot of whispers. Exactly, the death by a thousand cuts again. And so realize it for what it is, hear it for what it is, recognize it, and either pivot the conversation in a different direction, or you can say directly, you know, I don't think that is a conversation I want to have. I don't have any direct, you know, interest in having that conversation or perspective on it. Let's move on to something else.

There you go.

But be careful to engage Because gossips will also take what you said and tell someone else.

Oh yeah.

Well, Nicole said, or I told her about this little piece of gossip here and she agreed. The other thing I also have to be really careful of, and I read a book once that gave me this insight, particularly around the way that women communicate in leadership. And she talked about in that book about even some of our nonverbal behaviors and that women tend to listen to an organization, to a conversation and we listen to it and we do this. This just means I'm listening.

Yeah.

I hear you. I'm paying attention. I'm being respectful that you're speaking. I'm nodding, right? Whereas someone else may perceive that as, she agrees with me.

She agrees with me. Yeah, yeah.

So now I'm really intentional about being careful if I see— if I feel like nodding too much.

As a man.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So, um, yeah, I'm being very careful. Number one, just recognize it when you See it and don't choose to engage in it. You know, and let that gossiping person say, you know, just say, I'm not interested in participating in that conversation and pivot to something else.

I like that. I like that. Okay. What about folks you've— well, first I'll ask so I don't make assumptions, but people who overreact and respond to things without thinking it through? Have you ever noticed that behavior in folks?

Yeah, sometimes that's just someone who's fairly new in their leadership and they're just jumping to a conclusion around a situation and overreacting or sometimes even overescalating a situation that's not really that big. And that's a coaching opportunity, you know, when they're overreacting. Sometimes they overreact to the point that there's fallout, and then you got to deal with the fallout as well because people have been impacted by whatever the overreaction looks like. So for instance, if I say we've got to really do a better job on absenteeism in the department, and then someone overreacts in a staff meeting and says, you all better come to work or Ms. Nicole gonna have a talk with you, right? That's overreacting.

Yeah.

Absenteeism may be related to a lot of things. Maybe people need support, maybe people need a little bit more flexibility. flexibility in their schedule, consider other schedules. It doesn't mean that you go and berate people.

Right.

Right? But that was— I'm thinking of a real situation where it was taken as, you better do this or else. Right? But that's a coaching opportunity, but it came with some fallout.

Yeah, most definitely. All right, final one is behaviors. So we're talking about behaviors of incivility, right? We talked about gossiping, that negative energy, overreacting without giving Some thought, because that can cause incivility if you, you know, say it the wrong way, right? Letting our emotions overpower our intelligence. But one of the number one questions we ask in our behavior observation tool when we're qualifying an audience, that hands down gets a whole lot of head nods, and that's rude and disrespectful behavior.

Mm-hmm.

Tell me about That in your journey of leadership?

So I've had more complaints of rude and disrespectful behavior over the course of my career in leadership than I have had admissions of rude and disrespectful behavior.

Interesting.

No one ever admits, oh, you're right, I did go after them.

Right, I did say it, I said it again.

I said it, you know. Yeah, people will usually qualify their behavior and say, well, I spoke to them that way, but it was because They weren't listening, or it's the third time I had to talk to them, or whatever. But reminding them that they're— you never have the right to disrespect a coworker or even a direct report. That is not a right that this organization, any organization I've worked with, it's not a right the organization has given you. And those can be difficult.

Yeah.

And in some cases, people either move on. You know, I've heard people— I've had people move on. And I've had people, some people do better. You know, they learn from it after a few times, you know, stepping in it.

Right.

But along the way, again, there's fallout because that's hurtful.

It is.

It's really, really hurtful, and that doesn't go away. Even when there's an apology, even when there's clearly corrective action done and everyone can see that there's corrective action, even though you can't go back to the person who made the complaint and say what you did, right? They know because behavior changed. changes, but the hurt's already been done.

Yeah.

You know, and sometimes those relationships between whoever those individuals are can't be repaired, but at least I can protect the individuals who've been impacted by that rude and disrespectful behavior by demonstrating that I'm addressing it.

Yeah, that's good. You know, we talk about civility, right? And just to kind of, kind of land the conversation, I try to drive a point home with 2 things. One, Rude and disrespectful behavior.

Yeah.

When, with civility intelligence, right? You said it earlier, so I just think it's a good time to connect the dots. When we talk about principles, 'cause everything we do at EI 365 is rooted in these 11 self-operating principles. And so I think it's a good closeout. We talk about the rude and disrespectful behavior, the principle of self-awareness, That you brought up earlier. We strongly believe that if you are highly self-aware, it's very hard for you to be rude and disrespectful. Now let me go under the hood a little bit more with self-awareness, because for us, what we teach and train on is your level of self-awareness is rooted in your mood.

Yeah.

Your attitude. and your energy. So if you are consciously connected to how you feel, what you're thinking, and how you're showing up, our guess is you would not consciously be a disrespectful person if you are intentional about your level of self-awareness. So if I'm— if I know my mood is off, I make my adjustments. I don't— if I'm being responsible with my behavior, I'm not going to engage with you while my mood is off, while I'm in my feelings, because I know that can come off disrespectful. If my attitude is off, if I got that stinking thinking, it's not a good time to have that conversation with you. If my vibe, my energy— because when people walk into your space, you know the vibe, right? You can feel the energy. And so one of the most important principles we teach with self- with civilian intelligence is not only just say the word self-awareness, but be honest. What is your mood? What is your attitude? What is your energy? How do you feel? What are you thinking? How are you showing up? And if you're cycling around that ecosystem of thought, it's very challenging for you to be rude or disrespectful unless you just absolutely want to be. And that's a whole nother conversation. Right.

I think if the premise is that if you're highly self-aware, then you will always take those, you know, those pauses and do what you need to do to have the best outcome in a situation and that is your goal, then sure. But I don't think that being highly self-aware is automatically going to— is for the most part going to lead to a situation where a person is less likely to be rude and disrespectful. I think that's a good point. disrespectful because the individual receiving the communication is the one who's going to determine whether or not it landed rude and disrespectful for them, no matter how self-aware you are and no matter how good your intent is in delivering that message. I think a very highly self-aware person can still provide very direct feedback, and the individual receiving it can still say, that was disrespectful that you even told me that.

Absolutely.

It's not good for me to call out 3 days out of a 5-day week every week for 6 months.

With respect has a lot of different meanings, right? How dare you?

So therefore it was disrespectful. So I think we have to prepare folks that yes, you should work on being as self-aware as you possibly can, and yes, you should really be thinking about are you grounded in the intent of having the best outcome and delivering messages with kindness and respect and with clarity, knowing that you don't have control Exactly. Over how the person receives it.

Yeah.

Because even when you're telling them the truth about themselves, sometimes that's when the person reacts most negatively because they're protecting their own ego, they're protecting their own perception of themselves, even when they are fully and completely in the wrong.

Yeah. And they eventually come around when you don't overreact to that.

Yeah, when you don't overreact to them.

Exactly. So that's good, that's good. I like that. You open that— you always give me Can you be my mentor?

Absolutely.

Start to land the conversation. I said a couple of times though, but I want to just thank you, you know, for your time this afternoon and just being part of the So Civil podcast where we just want to talk about workplace civility, you know, promoting civility in a work environment, neutralizing incivility when it shows up, and encouraging people no matter where you are on your journey, you're always responsible for how you behave, no matter how you feel.

That's right.

Yeah.

Thank you for having me. This has been great.