Science & Spirituality Talks with David Perlmutter, MD

Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Science and Spirituality Talks. Our guest today is Dr. David Perlmutter. Dr. Perlmutter is a board certified neurologist and a six time New York Times bestselling author whose work focuses on the intersection of neurology, nutrition and brain health. He's a fellow of the American College of Nutrition. He serves on its board of directors and on the editorial board of the Journal of Alzheimer's Disease. You probably know him from his books. He has a number of books, all with very clever titles, by the way, all very creative. And if you haven't read his books, I would highly recommend them. And also to see him lecturing globally. He's usually presenting at health practitioner conferences. He's been on television, so he definitely is. He has achieved much in the way of furthering the conversation on neurology and also functional neurology, I would say. So welcome, David.

Deanna, so great to see you again.

That's true. We just saw each other a couple weeks ago, I would say. So I'm, I'm so excited to have this conversation because I have to say that I've known you for years, but I'm not sure that I know some of the deeper levels of what you really feel, think and believe about the world. So we're going to get into some of that. Perhaps we can start with you telling the audience a little bit about how did you get into medicine? How did you get into neurology, neurology specifically?

I think it was very clear at an early age that I was going to be a doctor. And kind of, like it or not, I mean, I was, it was very obvious that I was being groomed to follow in my father's footsteps and things could be worse, right? And so I was exposed to medicine and neurology at a very young age at the dinner table being quizzed about this or that syndrome. And by the time I was 12, I was holding retractors during my father's neurosurgical procedures, standing on a couple of stools back in the less malpractice related days of treating patients surgically. And I just was fascinated by it. I was fascinated by the science, the challenge. And I found it was an area that allowed me to really be curious. And even to this day, I'm sure you'll agree, we're finding out things all the time that are just answering questions, that many of those questions have been long standing and many of the things that we are learning right now today are opening up so many new areas of interest and Exploration for us. I find that it's been a non stop experience in a very positive way for me to have this relationship with medicine and specifically neurology in terms of being very stimulating and fulfilling for me.

Yeah, yeah, I can see that. Seen your journey over these past decades and now I actually see it with your son Austin. It's kind of interesting as you explain your father's son dynamic and then seeing that, I would say even now with your own son, do you see kind of this generation of medicine informing your, your lineage and even legacy?

Well, interestingly, I think that my two biggest mentors in my life have been my father and my son. So I kind of stand at the, between the two because they, they both, you know, my dad informed me in ways that he, in many ways that he was not conscious of. And I think Austin does the same thing. And so there's, you know, Austin is my entree to the new world, to, you know, the exciting developments of the time through his eyes and through his generation. And you know, my father was trained in a very classic way in, in neurosurgical technique and et cetera. I get it from both of them. You know, I don't, you know, people say, well, gee, what's it like to have Austin follow in your footsteps? Well, he's not, you know, he's certainly doing things in his own way and I so value that and encourage that. And again, as I've said, there's in many ways he's really continues to teach me along the way is really beautiful.

I really like that you have such a relationship with Austin in the way that you do, because it feels more on the same, you know, you're each learning from each other, which is really the best case scenario rather than having that very stiff parent child dynamic. It feels very fluid and it's really beautiful to hear you say it like that. Yeah.

And I think it's, it's an extension of my interactions with really everyone. I mean, my, you know, having a conversation with you is a time when I get to kind of double click on your soul and get a sense as to what's motivating you, you know, to be the person that you are. There's always something so helpful, encouraging, empowering to derive from interactions with other people if there are, you know, looking at things in the same way you are, and more importantly, if they're not.

That's a really good point. Especially in this, this time space reality where there seems to be a lot of polarizing views. You know, one of the things that I've noticed about your family because I've had the. The pleasure of meeting your wife and getting to know her a little bit more, Lise, and also looking at your daughter's work, which is about art. And so then I look at this powerhouse family, and I see it as a beautiful marriage between science and art. So I'm kind of curious, you know, just having a firm understanding of where you sit with medicine, where are you with the whole landscape of art and creativity. How does that enter into your life?

Well, how it entered in my life is that, you know, Raisha made it very clear that a lot of what I do is really focused on creativity, making something new appear, which is what her work does in such an incredibly beautiful way. But, you know, I've always kind of felt drawn to the notion of exploration and creating ideas and protocols that were a little bit out of the mainstream, should we say, you know, out of the box thinking. And I've always said that, you know, ultimately my goal is not to be an out of the box thinker, but to make the box bigger such that these ideas can be included in a more wide ranging, embracing way of bringing, you know, health care to populations and even to the individual. So, you know, Raisha has made it very clear that my approach to medicine has been very creative. So that has become, for me, the art of medicine. That's my creation. Because as in. In any of the graphical arts areas, I'm not that great. I remember once, many years ago, Racha was very young, a teenager, and she took my father, me, and I think my wife to sketch. You had 15 minutes to sketch a. An. A model, a nude model. And. And I did my very best, and it was awful. And my dad did his. We didn't do very well. And Racha, I don't know she was how old she was, but all she did was shadows. She just sketched out the shadows. And when she was done, there was this model, you know, appearing on her paper. And, you know, I think some of that is certainly genetic, and I think a lot of it is following your passion. She's always been drawn to that. For whatever reason, we can explore why people are drawn to the arts. You know, that's an interesting topic, but nonetheless, I look at where it's taken her now in terms of her ability to express herself and her concepts, and that gets back to your question. To me, it's been a mechanism whereby I can formalize and codify my concepts, my ideas, and hope that the people who look at the art will Appreciate it.

Yeah. And I like how you're drawing out that there are many forms of creativity. It could be in thinking. It can be in medicine. I remember witnessing one of your presentations. You and I were in Australia together. It could have been maybe 2016 or something along those lines, long time ago. But I could see the art in your presentation. You had a lot of animation. I remember you had kind of this fireman with putting the fire out in the brain. I mean, now I think your presentations are a little bit more, you know, maybe this is Austin's influence, but I can see a touch of AI. I can see a touch of a very futuristic tone, but I do.

Yeah, I definitely incorporated AI, at least in terms of creating the graphics and even some videos. I think that's a very special moment, that 45 minutes or one hour that I get in front of that audience to impart whatever wisdom I have on them and so they can be with that. And I think to create an interface such that it has impact and that 10 years later, somebody can remember the fireman putting out the fire of inflammation, as a matter of fact. And you know that. So I've really worked, you know, diligently to create that kind of interface with. With the viewing audience, such that in a. In a presentation I'm going to be doing at the group where I saw you recently at a 4M, I'm actually going to do a workshop on how to give your talk, how to make your slides, how, how you should. What you should say, how you say it, how you stand, what the slides look like, how to transition, you know, all the things. Because there are a lot of people that I'm sure you're aware, have so much knowledge and just unfortunately lack the skillset to deliver that knowledge. And therefore. But, you know, this is. It's formulaic. I mean, this can be taught and it can be learned, therefore. And, you know, to be able to work with individuals and help them improve their presentation, I think is something I'd really like to do.

So. Interesting. I had no idea. And it really does bridge together.

Had no idea this was an idea I had last week.

Well, then maybe that's why. But you're the perfect person to do it because again, I've seen you on stage and you're the consummate storyteller, but within that realm of medicine, in a way that just feels very breakthrough. Like when I'm listening to you talk about the microglia, I just feel like I'm onto something that's really new. So it's Great that you're going to impart this gift that you have, this creative medical gift to others. It sounds.

Yeah, well, Austin's going to participate in that as well because he, as you said, you know, he has his own spin on how to do it and is. I. I find it very informative, but also entertaining just, you know, just to see my kid up there doing his thing, it's. It's a, you know, pride doesn't begin to cover it.

It's so fun seeing you both on stage together, the father, son duo, and kind of going back and forth intellectually. It's fun to see that, you know, back to you when you were a child. You know, I feel like we've talked about everybody in your family, didn't really get into talking about your wife, but I do want to know a little bit about you as a child. And, you know, you've had such a strong influence through your father to move into medicine. So it was kind of like your purpose, your mission, you know, felt pretty solidified probably at a very young age. You know, there's the old adage that whatever we wanted to do when we were seven was our true calling. So I'm just wondering if you could take us back to when you were seven and, you know, or very young, when your identity was just forming. And what about with your mother? What about, like, your just even growing up, Were there certain views in the home that were cultivated around values or a spiritual mindset? You know, what. What was inculcated at a very young age for you?

Well, I'll get to my mother in just a moment. But again, boy, my dad set a high bar. I remember. And I actually told this story at his. At his funeral. A couple of things I said. One was that we were fishing. We were out fishing one day, and I caught. Or I don't know who caught, maybe he caught a little fish. And he took the hook out of the fish's mouth, threw it back in the water, and the fish was having some trouble swimming away. And my dad said, come on, little fish, you can do it. And ultimately the fish was able to figure it out and swam away. And he used to talk to patients like that. Very endearing and very compelling, passionate. So the. The other thing I remember from his funeral was, I think it was Dan Fogelberg song that I actually sang a line out of. And it was. My life has been a poor attempt to imitate the man. I'm just a living legacy to the leader of the band. And, you know, I guess Dan Fogelberg's father was a musician. And my case, my father was a physician. Did I say musician? Physician, yeah. And so, yeah, you know, it's a living legacy to the leader of the band. In this. In his case, my mother is where the creativity came in. So she was also, like our daughter, an artist. And so, you know, I guess if your mother and your father help make what you are, you know, from the genetic perspective, people say, well, the genetic perspective, but it's also environmental, that's for sure. You know, nature and nurture are at play here. I think that's where the creativity part came in. She was very creative, and I'll leave that with a statement that I turned 71 tomorrow, and I still, to this day miss them. I, you know, I. I still have difficulty just talking about it because I miss them so much. I mean, as we all do. You know, we all miss our parents, so, you know, what we all wouldn't give for five more minutes. Right. And I don't know if this is where you wanted to take this interview, but anyhow, I just feel very, very grateful to. Not just to have had the parents that I had, but also to have, you know, this family that I have in terms of this relationship that is so supportive of each one of us, that it's just a time of gratitude.

Yeah, no, I feel that. So you're in your seventh decade of life. I remember talking with Jeff Bland many years ago. He talked about how every decade has some kind of symbolic reference for him. And I'm kind of curious, since tomorrow is your birthday, and that was on my mind as well, and my birthday was just on Sunday. So you and I are. Are both at the end of December here. But you know, what. What do you see as, you know, we'll go into the future a little bit in terms of thinking about your purpose, your meaning, your just your overall spirit of life. And looking at this next decade, what do you see as, you know, going forward? What do you. Do you have a vision for it, or are you more in that. That motive?

It's interesting because, you know, I'm not in clinical practice anymore, and the. The pivot has been from the individual contact with patients day in and day out to a broader outreach. And for me to try to gain the fulfillment that I got from touching the lives of individuals to feeling that fulfillment from touching the lives of the public at large through the things that I do, the books, the social media, the podcasting, the conferences, et cetera. And I really miss the clinical practice. I miss that. Interaction, you know, to the extent that I still talk to people one on one and give advice about things as I see them. And, you know, I was actually not in preparation for our time together today, but I was on a phone call or a video call with somebody this morning, and I just. Just realize that this is not the accomplishment time of life. It's the meaning part of life now. And that I don't, you know, they're not. It's not goal centric to do this or that, you know, to. To have the best New York Times bestselling book or to have this amount of assets or whatever it may be. It's really about the meaning part of life. And. And then as I thought about it, you know, I was thinking about, quote from Albert Schweitzer, that the purpose of humanity is to serve and to show compassion and the will to help others throughout your lifetime. And I realized that, you know, that was kind of a bit of a watchword for me even earlier on in my clinical days, that it was a personal kind of thing, that I wanted to feel good. And I found that I would feel the best when I was doing that, when I was interacting with other people. What's happened to me now is I am having just the most amazing time having the ability, through a podcast, to interface with the most exciting, wonderful, dedicated, compassionate individuals on the planet and having these very deep scientific explorations with them, but always getting back to the. To the part of, why are you doing it? You know, what does it mean? I think exactly what you're doing with me today, you know, we'll do. Maybe we're gonna do the science part. I don't know. I don't know what this is about, but. Sure feels good. But that said, you know, these people who are really at the top of their games in terms of the granularity of their science wonder about things and in a very positive way, you know, like Albert Einstein did. So that's. That's what's happening these days. And so many opportunities are coming to me to be involved with people and their various things that they're exploring. But the most exciting thing for me is, strangely, the ability that I have now to connect these people to each other. You know, that here's somebody doing this amazing thing, and they would sure benefit if they could know what this person is doing, because they're doing something that's tangential, and if they would only come together, my gosh, the whole would be so much greater than the sum of the parts, and therefore making that connection and then you get an email later say, oh, I had a great chat with this person. That's very fulfilling.

Well, my next question to you was to have you define what spirituality means to you. And I feel like what you've just said in those previous sentences pretty much feels like what I would define as spirituality. And I'm curious if all of those things you mentioned, whether connecting people, meaning having a sense of mentorship, does this fall in line with your views of spirituality?

I think the operative word here you said, and that is connecting. And that's really, I think, such a functional term at the level of the cell, the genome, the body systems, the body to our family, to our neighbors, to our communities, to the world, you know, the planet on which we live. And I think that beyond that I've learned, grown to learn that there is something to which we connect that is profound, it touches your soul, call it what you will, but I've reached an understanding, or at least perhaps a theoretical understanding that far be it for me to challenge long held beliefs. But I'll tell you a little story. Two years ago I was in Chile visiting friends. My wife and I were there. And one afternoon I went for a walk and I stumbled upon a sunflower, the actual flower of the sunflower plant. And I looked at it and recognized that there was a radial array distribution of the seeds in that sunflower panel plant. If you look carefully at a sunflower plant, you realize the seeds are not just random, they are in a spiral like you see when you look at certain galaxies. And the thought came to my mind that, you know, the, the common knowledge is that, well, you know, this is the product of survival of the fittest. In other words, what is the array of those seeds that would have best been beneficial for the sunflower seed? Why are the wings of the sparrow a certain length? Why do we have five digits on our hands? Right? Because this has been tried and tested over time and that turns out to be the best solution for functionality, right? That's what Darwinian evolution is all about. And then I, you know, sort of in line with what we are now talking about, this notion of connection, thought that I suspect there could be an alternative explanation would be one that living things are connected to a knowledge base that informs them and allows them to physically and functionally manifest, I. E. When fully connected to this knowledge base, call it the cloud, call it whatever you want, the instructions are ready clearly to inform the DNA to create the proteins to manifest the formation of this organism such that it will have five fingers or A wing of a particular length or seeds arrayed in a spiral array. And then I thought about that and recognized that disconnection from that knowledge base would manifest then as illness when the instructions for this near perfection of health were corrupted in some way. So we lack a good transmission from source to inform our DNA. You know, we think DNA is the end all. And it's fascinating, and the structure is fascinating and how it works is incredible. And maybe we can unpack some of that, but it's just, it's just a set of instructions that are activated. You know, we think that, well, now we understand epigenetics and how lifestyle factors and other factors then activate parts of our DNA to, to manifest the, you know, the transcription. But I'm always asking, well, what's upstream and what's upstream of that, you know? Well, lifestyle factors are upstream of epigenetic modulation of our DNA. Yeah, but what's, what's ultimately at the end of the stream, and that is source. So that is what is the framework for my spirituality. It is recognizing how valuable it is to connect to that, to that source of knowledge and intelligence that pervades the universe.

So what you're referring to is source. And this knowledge base, this intelligence, is this something that you cultivate, a practice or some kind of daily intention around connecting to specifically? Or do you feel that because you're living, you are already connected?

Well, I think if you're living, you're already connected. The question is, what do you do to purify, enhance, strengthen, declutter that connection? And I think perhaps the term enlightenment might fit here. I think enlightenment is then, you know, this most sophisticated approach to being connected to that knowledge base, that level of intelligence. You know, who, who can say if there's, you know, who's fully connected to that, and, you know, you call it what you will. There are many, many names in many spiritual practices around the world for what we are talking about. But I recognize that it informs everything throughout my day. And it's an interesting perspective because it, it explains why things go wrong, explains why illness occurs to me, explains why people act the way they do, and why we see some of the things that we appreciate going on around us. And it is a disconnection then from that. And again, this word connection is so fundamental, even from a physiologic perspective. We need to maintain our connection with the ability that we have to connect to source. And that comes from our prefrontal cortex. It's our prefrontal cortex that allows us to bring in data from Multiple sources to formulate knowledge and wisdom, and also allows us to understand what has happened in the past and project the future. It allows us to plan for the future. It allows us to understand what the impact of our choices are on our own health and, you know, our own understanding of life, but also how our choices are going to influence the lives of others, how our choices will influence our communities and our planet. That's what our gift is with respect to having this massive prefrontal cortex that we have. Another operating system that is involved in our decision making is the amygdala. And that's a far more primitive decision making center in the brain. It's the area from which most of our decisions are made or influenced in our younger years until we reach our teens. Then the prefrontal cortex begins to take control. But the amygdala makes decisions that are very self centered, really concerned with what's only best for me right now and not me tomorrow, and certainly not you, and certainly not anybody else from any other country or locale that's behaving from the amygdala. And it's unfortunately where we lock into when we are severed from our connection to the prefrontal cortex. So the prefrontal cortex exercises what's been called top down control over the child in the room, the adult in the room. The prefrontal cortex takes, should take control hopefully during our teenage years and allow us then to drive a car and to vote and to do things that a certain biological, rather a chronological age is insinuates is the right time for us to delegate more responsibility to individuals. Because, I mean, I don't think people who make our laws are thinking that. Well, by 18, their prefrontal cortex is now exercising control, top down control over the amygdala. But I mean, I think it's apparent that as we reach our late teens, early 20s, that our decision making tends to be more grounded and more practical. The problem is that the connection between this prefrontal cortex and the amygdala, the way the prefrontal cortex can reduce amygdalar input, that connection, for those who want to know, the anterior cingulate gyrus, that connection is threatened by inflammation. So what does that mean? It means that things that we do with respect to our lifestyle choices that increase inflammation, all the things that you've talked about with respect to why we should eat the rainbow and everything you've been lecturing to us and teaching us for years about inflammation is so important through the lens of our choices as it relates to what I just described. When we increase inflammation, we take the adult out of the room. Think about that. Think of the implications globally of the globalization of what was called the standard American diet, then the western diet, now pretty much the global diet, A diet that is, for all its nuance, pro inflammatory. That diet now globally is separating people from the gift, from their gift of a beautiful prefrontal cortex that can help them see the bigger picture and make better decisions. So when we look around and see what's going on in the world and why it's happening, I think it's not a stretch necessarily to think that the behavioral changes that we are appreciating may to some degree be a consequence of the fact that people are behaving from their reptilian brain, from their fear center, day in and day out, and behaving from that part of the brain causes them to make poor health choices, which further through creates this vicious cycle that locks them into amygdala based behavior, as opposed to being able to create a connection to the prefrontal cortex that allows them then to bring this intelligence that we talked about earlier into their lives that can influence their ability to regain their health and to just live a more purposeful life.

That's a beautiful connecting of the brain, behavior, lifestyle and empowerment. You know, one of the things that you said, I'd like to go back to, to unpack a little bit because I bet for some people listening, it may have stuck in terms of the disconnection from source can result in some kind of misalignment or what you would say is disease or illness. So I'm kind of curious because I'm thinking about people in my life who I would see them as making great decisions, very much aligned to their prefrontal cortex and doing the best they can. They have a sense of connection and otherness, but yet they are sick, they are ill. And so I'm curious, how do you see those cases where there is alignment with the prefrontal cortex, but yet there is still illness? Where does that come from?

Well, you know, it's an attempt to answer the question, why do bad things happen to good people? Right?

Yes, it is. That came to my mind.

And I, I think that, you know, certainly central to our way of thinking, when I say our, I'm talking about, you know, functional medicine type people, is, you know, just the multitude of inputs, including genetic inputs, including lifestyle inputs, including, you know, all manner of environmental issues to which we are exposed. What we had talked about earlier is, is one part of it and so, you know, one would say that a personalized exploration of these individuals might reveal, you know, what is the genesis of their illness. It may be a genetic predisposition that was amplified by an environmental exposure or a full on genetic issue itself or, or you know, earlier life trauma that is, that is not fully resolved, that then makes it more difficult for the information to be transmitted. So, you know, this is certainly one of life's most challenging questions to answer.

It is for sure. And waxing on that a little bit, you know, being that you and I just got back from a longevity fest, I'm kind of curious about your take on all of the hype around longevity and not dying and this whole thrust towards immortality and how that sits next to what you just described. So the connection, the purpose, spirituality, what do you think is happening at a more symbolic level when we are looking to our longevity?

At that conference specifically, I was very taken by a significant pivot in that group, the American Academy of Anti Aging Medicine, away from the cosmetics of aging to the real underlying issues that are involved in aging. I don't know if you appreciated that, but you know, I've been lecturing there for, gosh, 20 years.

Yeah.

And it used to be how you can look like you're not aging, and now it's tackling, you know, the real depths of physiology and pathophysiology that are involved in that process. So I'm very grateful to see that. And I think that we are right now on the threshold and really taking that first step towards enhancing Health Span in a very, very dramatic way in the next year or two. I mean, I'm so glad that we've all stayed in the game as long as we have, because we're about to be rewarded by the, the changes that we've been anticipating. And it's through the utilization of artificial intelligence in my mind, without question. I think artificial intelligence through the various platforms that are becoming available in healthcare is allowing an intervention with the ends of one, the individual patients to personalize the understanding of what is making them healthy or, and, or ill, and more importantly, what can be done about it in ways that we could never have even anticipated even six months ago. The idea that artificial intelligence through specific platforms can analyze every bit of data available with respect to a particular individual looking at her or his genetics, epigenetics, standard lab studies, imaging studies, and then stay on top of emerging scientific literature, looking at tens of thousands of wonderful scientific studies on a daily basis to inform not only the interpretation of these laboratory studies, but I Think more importantly, what needs to happen in terms of what more needs to be cited and what therapeutically can be done is. I'm getting short of breath just talking about it. I mean, this is what this is going to bring to the table in terms of doctor patient interface is going to be transformative in the next one year. So it's happening right now. I mean, think about not only the ability to look at this incredible amount of data on a patient. You know, when you get a genetic profile on an individual, normally when you get that from one of the popular companies that you and I know, know about, it comes with a seven or eight page explanation as to what these genetic polymorphisms might mean in terms of this person. Therefore, what we might recommend, do they have some issues with their vitamin D receptors or vitamin B metabolism or any number of things, detoxification pathways, et cetera. We don't have to be that smart because they come with a standard spit out kind of recommendation. Well, here's what this patient profile looks like and they might look at 20 things that popped up and give you a recommendation. But that's the best we can do. I don't think so. What we need to do and what is happening is that these platforms are going to be able to analyze not just every gene, but the potential interaction between these genes, epigenetics and other factors, existing laboratory studies and medications, and really give you an overview the likes of which we could never have conceptualized ever. And it's influenced by this, these tens of thousands of studies that are uploaded on a daily basis. You know, I'm lucky if I can read, you know, five or six or maybe eight studies in a day. And how much of that am I going to be able to remember, right? Much less if I were in clinical practice, bring to bear on this individual who now has, you know, this genetic profile. And it's a new dawn. It's so very exciting. And I will tell you, Diana, if we have a conversation a year from now, everyone will have experienced this. And I think people are going to truly embrace it.

I think it's true. Things are moving very rapidly and technology is changing. It's incredibly dynamic. What you're describing makes me think of what you were referring to with respect to genes and SNPs and epigenetics and biochemistry and pathways. And I'm just wondering because that is one level of health, right? So if we're thinking of the physical basis, the foundational health, but you said it yourself, you know, it's almost what comes before that and how do we get to those levels before they become manifest in the physical?

And that is the beauty of AI. Why? Because now that liberates the caring, loving, empathic physician to engage what you're getting at and you know, now there's time because the other work is going to be done. The other work is done that's as compelling as the other work is. It becomes easy through these platforms now, you know, Marcus Welby can come back into the room and Adams.

Marcus Welby, yeah, that's true.

It could be that individual.

What I was going to ask you too, more specifically to neurology because I feel like this is very exciting is how are we using the physical data to look at things like helping people to expand their sense of consciousness? You know, just to track back to what you said about connection and how important that is. I don't know if you could draw a correlate to something like consciousness from that ability to be connected through a sunflower, through looking at the sky. So I'm curious because I feel like in much of the technology that we're seeing and you tell me, your thoughts on this still feels very physical. Right. Which is important because we need that basis. But where do you see us heading as it relates to consciousness in the realm of, I would even say psychoneurobiology, which is a very intriguing and I feel like a lot is emerging there. Do you have any thoughts about that?

Well, I do and I think what you're getting at peripherally, and I'll go ahead and crack the lid, is the ever increasing, and I mean dramatic increased recognition that certain psychedelic experiences seem to be fast tracking the ability of an individual to at least recognize connectivity to each other and to the things we talked about. So, and I welcome that that type of research. I think that you know, to be able to help people who are stuck who are dealing with mental health issues, for example, like depression or ptsd. I think think the emerging literature is really proving supportive that this becomes a powerful adjunct. And you know, when you, when you read Paul Stamets most recent book, you realize it's always been there. It's always been there. It's always been, you know, it co evolved with humanity for tens of thousands of years, this portal, if you will, that allows us to very rapidly gain this connection. And I think once you recognize it, then the job is complete, the work is done that you can't unsee it. And it's a bit like Plato's allegory of the cave that once you recognize that you're no longer looking at the shadows, but you turn around and recognize the shadows are formed because there's a light shining into the cave. And you see the light, you can't unsee it. So, you know what I'm saying is that psychedelic interventions, if you want to be clinical about it, or just a psychedelic experience, seems to be, you know, a way that more and more people are gaining the ability to recognize connectivity.

Yeah, there definitely, there is an interest out there, but I'm just wondering if it needs to employ a psychedelic agent as we know them to be, whether it's psilocybin or other forms of chemical compounds, or could we use life experiences to enhance consciousness? Right. Whether meditation, certain sleep states. And so, you know, that's kind of what I'm getting at too, is how do we.

And I totally, I totally agree with you that, I mean, this is what is accomplished in, in meditation, especially in long term meditators. You know, there are various techniques that you can recognize this relationship and recognize your connection. I had an experience this summer drumming, and I totally got it just through drumming. And I had never done that before. My wife's been drumming for a long time in a drumming circle and, you know, has participated in that. I didn't know what it was all about. I mean, I recognize connectivity through music, but this was an experience, just drumming, becoming connected to whales. Now that sounds way out, and that's okay. Again, I'm 71. I'm putting cards on the table here. It is what it is. So there, there are various ways of accessing that. I mean, there's practices as well. And this has been, you know, what mystics have done for millennia. And it's just, you know, I, I, my sense was I thought you were entreeing into the psychedelic realm. I wanted to unpack that a little bit. But by all means, there are many ways to, you know, and I think we as humans, by virtue of our prefrontal cortex, we are wired and ready to go to make this connection.

Definitely. My last question is about something a little tender.

This is your last question.

Well, we could keep going. I want to honor your time because we came out a little bit late. Do you have a little bit more time?

I do. You know, I didn't know what we were. I saw on my calendar, it said, deanna wants to talk to you about science and spirituality. That's all I got. And I just, I so look forward to these types of connections. Look, look how, look where we've gone so far.

It's just, I know it's fast, it's. Well. And actually, I do have one more question after this next one, but the next one is a big. So get ready for this.

Okay, I'm sitting down.

Let's talk about death. Let's talk. You know, in medicine, I feel like there's such an emphasis to promote life, quality of life. And I rarely get the sense that there is discussion about preparation for a good death. So I want to get your take on mortality, on death, the transition of death, what happens in the afterlife, what is your belief and what is your take on your personal preparation for that moment?

A lot of questions here. First, I've always. I've always felt deeply fulfilled in dealing with families with a family member who was dying. I always felt it was an honor to participate in that interaction and to do the best I could to work through it with them. You know, obviously a very, very difficult time. Crazy. There is no training that I had no training in medical school in terms of this event, which, you know, is. Is pretty, you know, a fundamental event in the continuum of. Of life, health and death. Right. That you don't get training. It's it. But you are thrown into that, especially in the field of neurology and oncology. You know, these are things you. You see quite, quite frequently. And I recognized that I could be of service at that moment and not to shy away from it at times. It was uncomfortable, but I was willing, except for once, I'll tell you about that in just a moment, to put my comfort, you know, well below the. The needs of the. Of family members and been there while it happened and, you know, and allowed people to work through it. I didn't impart my views on the meaning of death or the afterlife, if there was one, or lack thereof, on any family member or any. Anyone with whom I was interacting. I'll tell you about the other experience because I think I just teed it up. And so I was driving in my car to get my teeth cleaned. Where's this story going to go? And I got a call from a very close friend who said, you need to come to the emergency room because my husband is there and he's not doing well. And the husband was one of my closest friends. In fact, he married my wife and me. Really close friend, did so many things together all the time. And anyway, I went to the emergency room and he was in a coma. And I scanned him and he had a big bleed into his brain. It was a mortal wound. I knew he would not recover and. But I. We left him on the ventilator. We took him upstairs, and we waited till the family arrived to be present. And then later that night, I explained everybody what was going to happen. Then I went into the room with the respiratory therapist, and we took him off life support. And so I handled that as the neurologist. Right. I was the doctor that night. So the next day went by, and I wasn't feeling that well. The next day, his wife called and said, we're going to have a memorial ceremony this afternoon. Can you pull up any pictures or video that you have, you know, with. With Uncle Mike is what we called him? So I said, sure. I went on my computer, and it pulled up a. A video of a concert that he and I had. We had a group, and we. We're playing at a concert. And he. He really was just captivated the audience. And I watched him sing. And then I went over on the couch for a minute and turned. Turned the video off. And Lee's. My wife looked over. She said, what's the matter with you? And I said, well, I'm not really feeling that well right now. And I'm lying down on the couch. And she said, gosh, you don't look great at all. You don't look good at all. I'm gonna. I'm gonna take you to the hospital. I don't ever want to go to the hospital, believe me. And so she was surprised by my response, which was, you're not gonna take me to the hospital, Because I don't think I'm gonna make it to the hospital. You need to call an ambulance. So the ambulance arrives, and they came to the couch with a. Like, a wheelchair and said, we need you go to. To get into the wheelchair. And I. I couldn't even get up to get into a wheelchair. Oh. So they picked me up and packed me into the ambulance, and I. I was in atrial fib with a rate of around 210. I was in. I was in trouble, let's call it like it is. And I remember looking out the back of the ambulance at my wife and daughter following the ambulance in the car. I get to the hospital, and they quickly brought me in the intensive care unit. I had pressure bags on my legs. I had two IVs, oxygen monitor, and they're loading me with medication to try to get me back into normal heart rate and rhythm. Anyway, I remember there said to the nurse that. God, that was some night. I said, be careful as you drop my rate, because I'm a runner and, you know, you might drop my Rate a little bit too low. And I was the only person in the cardiac intensive care unit that night. So he said, yeah, I'll be careful, whatever. And so we're talking, and he began telling me his life story, and I became a good listener. About. He was telling me about his brother who died in his arms. He did CPR and his brother, and he couldn't save him. And here I am in the icu, loaded up with every conceivable, you know, technology. Anyway, somehow I was able to fall asleep. And I remember waking up. It's tough to sleep in an icu. Obviously, I. I woke up and watched. I kept turning to watch the monitor, and my rate was coming down nicely. I'm back in sinus rhythm now my rate's dropping. 70, 50, getting lower and lower. And then I fell back to sleep. Then I woke up again, and I turned to look at the monitor, and I had flatlined. I had no. I had no pulse. And so, you know, to answer your question, Deanna, I was there, and I felt fine. I felt. I felt gratitude for just very wonderful life and a wonderful family. And then I put on my analytical hat for just a moment, right? Because I said, am I dreaming? You know, maybe I'm dreaming this because there was no alarm. You know, there was nothing. I didn't float out of the. Out of the bed or anything. So I put my analytical mind. I said, let me just trace these leads. And I traced all the wires to my heart, and one of them had popped off. So I took the lead and I put it back on. I don't remember which lead. It was AVL or something. Put it back on. And sure enough, right behind me, beep, beep, beep, beep. Rhythm. Long story short, over the next few hours, they unplug me, disconnect me. The cardiologist comes in the morning. I'm doing yoga on the floor in the icu. He said, I've never discharged a patient from the intensive care unit before to go home, but you're that guy. So I said, great, going home. But here's what the story tells me. The story tells me. And through, you know, my wife helped me interpret this, that, you know, I didn't process Michael's death. I didn't process it at all. I, I, you know, I was just the neurologist, and I didn't have a chance to work through it as his friend, his close friend. And you know what? What was further clear is that he had some letting go to do to transition. And that ultimately, you know, that weighed upon me, but it was really clear. A lot of things became clear that night. You know, I think I answered some of your questions about what I feel about death, but it was really important, I think, that I be with that experience as opposed to what we do as physicians often is we segregate our emotionality in times of need to be that person for the families. We rank our emotionality and our ability or need to deal with situations lower than that of the family. And I think that's the right thing to do. Do you know, are we acting to some degree? Yes, we are. You know, we're helping them through and that's part of the act. Yes. So I acted through this. I did the right things for the family, but it was unfinished business and it came back and got me and it reminded me, you know, about the value of friendship, of loss. And gosh, I think that was one of my biggest, if not the biggest life lesson that I've ever had.

Thank you for sharing. And also the role of the heart, how the heart does. You know, I know there's a little bit of an arm wrestle between cardiologists and neurologists, but, you know, if you look at the heart really taking on a lot of that emotion and what.

Was unfelt, you know, we were talking about the conference that we were just at and the other person who joined us in Australia, Ewan join you and me, was Mark Houston, if you'll recall. And Mark had indicated in the springtime of last of this past year, why don't we do something at a 4M the heart brain connection. So we did a several hour workshop on exactly what you just teed up for me was this beautiful relationship between the heart and the brain and how, you know, we metricize heart health by looking at heart rate variability as, you know, sort of a marker of our, you know, sympathetic versus parasympathetic, how calm we are, how, how, you know, and the metabolic downstream issues related to having poor or low heart rate variability. In the same way, we're now looking at what's called gamma oscillation as a background symphonic rhythm of the brain, as an, an indicator and also an influencer of brain health. So in a very real. We need the right music to play. Emanating from both the heart and the brain.

They go together for sure.

You bet.

There's one question in my barrage of questions which I don't believe you've answered, but maybe you can just clarify, and that is, what happens when we die? What do you think? What is your Belief around that?

I don't know. I really don't know. And I don't think anybody. Well, I think some people have beliefs and I honor that. Is there an afterlife? These are the questions that have puzzled humanity since we began asking questions, since we were gifted this prefrontal cortex that allows us to query these things. So did I have a near death experience? I guess I did not, since my heart was actually fine. And so, you know, we'll continue to puzzle this. I mean, some people have a pretty good sense and I honor that. And I think it gives them, you know, a significant degree of solace. I don't have to wonder about it anymore. I don't find disturbed by the fact that I still wonder about the answer to your question. So I can't. It'll be none of the above.

Okay, well, that's fair. And I like the honesty of it. And yet still the curiosity of whatever's to come. Well, thank you so much, David, for this heartfelt conversation. I feel like I have many layers now, of course, deeper understanding of who you are, and it's beautiful. And I'm so glad that we've had this opportunity. Right before you turned 71.

Me too.

Before you're really moving and inching into that next decade. So I'm curious, do you have any other final parting messages as it relates to science and spirituality, the fusion, the integration, the connection of those things in these years to come?

Yeah. And I would say that what has helped me, and this might be helpful for others, is to recognize each day the notion of gratitude. Gratitude for a thing, for a person, for an event, for something. And I think if we could take a deep breath and feel gratitude in our hearts, it's healing, it's good for us. So, you know, it's. It's a little bit, you know, centric. But that said, I think that sense of gratitude will burgeon into ultimately gratitude for things around us, people around us. And, you know, this fosters this connectivity. Then when we're grateful for the people in our lives, we will connect more to them and more to those who aren't necessarily playing big roles in our lives right now. And. And that's what we need moving forward.

Well, I'm grateful for you. I'm grateful for this conversation. So thank you for spending the time.

Deanna, I'm grateful for you. I've been grateful for you since I met you and all that you do. It is so heartfelt when I watch you giving your presentations. You're just trying to connect with people and give them good stuff. And so often afterwards, I hear people talking about what you've said, and, you know, the hope is that. That they'll act on the information. And that's the best we can do.

That's what it's about, right? Like you said, service. So thank you again for the conversation. It's been very enlightening, to use your word.

Thank you, Deanna. I hope to see you soon.

You too. Bye. Bye.