Science & Spirituality Talks with Yael Joffe, PhD

Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Science and Spirituality Talks. Today our guest is Dr. Yael Jaffe. Yael is a nutrigeneticist, a nutrition scientist. She's an educator with over 2 decades of experience in nutrigenomics, personalized nutrition, translational science. She holds a PhD in nutrigenomics. She's a real nerd, just like me. And, uh, but in a good way, and has worked at the intersection of research, clinical application, practitioner education. And what I feel like she's really good at, and I have seen this in motion, is taking things that are really complex and then turning them into meaningful tools, whether it's a book or a lab report. And I saw that mainly through her work at 3x4 Genetics, where she was the chief scientific officer And now she is an independent consultant. She's a speaker, advisor. She supports clinicians, health organizations, and she's a friend. So welcome, good to see you.

Hi Deanna, so happy to be here. Been waiting for this podcast.

I know, it is. We've been trying to get this date on the calendar, but now we are in an astrologically prime time, so I trust that.

So What a week to do this, right? It's definitely to have this conversation. So why is that?

What, what's your take on this week and why it's so impactful? I know you've been listening to certain podcasts, but what is really resonating for you right now?

I think, I think for me, um, with, with the full moon and kind of planetary alignments and everything, the thing that's probably strongest for me is new beginnings, being able to shake off those old personas and those old kind of roles that we define ourselves by, and really having the courage and, and the push from our, our universe and the planets to allow us to step into redefining who we are and how we want to be in the world and how we want to behave. So that's what's up for me at the moment.

Yeah, and, and that feels like a collective of what's up, you know, a lot of newness, a lot of great big expansive energy. So thanks for setting the stage with that. Um, so when I was reading your bio, I was reflecting because, um, you know, I'm reading all this stuff about science, you know, geneticist. I mean, you've been in the trenches doing this work for a long time, doing it extremely well. You have been seen in the field as one of those people that can truly translate. But I think over the past couple of years since I've known you you have now, I would say, moved into some other ways of thinking. So do you have just kind of like a— can you set the stage as to how things may have shifted for you over these past couple of years?

Wow. Yeah, that's a big question to jump in with, but I'll try. I'll try, um, be succinct in it. So I think, yes. So I started off as a dietitian. And then discovered genetics and nutrigenomics. And it's been an amazing 25, 30 years working in that space. And the challenge of bringing genetics into clinical practice, of understanding who we are, of understanding why we're different and why we respond to the world in a different way has always been my jam. You know, that's, that's been the work that I've done and I've absolutely loved it. I think What's happened for me in the last couple years is when our understanding of who we are in this world and how we respond to the world goes beyond this kind of physical definition of our physiology and our biology and our body, you know. So I think I was very well trained, as we all were, in biochemistry and biology and physiology, and for me, genetics, obviously. And then to just kind of have this, call it awakening, call it aha moment, that what defines health is so much more than just biology. And I was immersed in biology for the longest decades, and then to realize that we're not paying attention to this other part of self, call it soul, call it spirit, call it, universe that will play as much of a role in our, our journey and, and, and of, of health. And that's mental, social, physical, um, environmental, all of these things, um, as genetics and, and biology. And I think that's been my, um, defining aha moment.

Well, I remember a defi— one of your defining moments. Uh, we were, it was February, it could have been 2024.

Yes, it was.

It was 2024, right? Yeah, it was the Melatonin and Consciousness talk I was giving. And I remember you and I were having a chat before I was just about to go on stage. We were at the Integrative Healthcare Symposium, and I really felt that you were having this transformative experience where you were just— it was almost like a snake shedding its skin, or just, you know, you were coming into your own in a very different way than I had seen you. And it was great because we really had this connection about your interest in spirituality. So I remember that distinctly.

Yeah, me too. And I mean, I feel like it was a little bit more difficult than just shedding a skin. I remember having the chat with you and your presentation was amazing for me because you were starting like melatonin as a spiritual molecule. I even remember the slide and going, wow, we're now having this conversation, and how extraordinary is it that we can bring this conversation onto the stage at IHS? So I was like in awe that you had been able to bring this into your work, whereas I felt that I was still very stuck in my paradigm of the way I had been working and doing genetics. And nutrition, and it felt very painful to me actually. So it didn't feel like, oh, this is good, you know, I'm shedding my skin, I'm feeling good. It was actually the complete opposite. I, I felt like there was a lot of trauma in everything I defined myself as for 30 years, not, not understanding what it is I was going to evolve or shed into, but just knowing that I couldn't stay in my skin and the great discomfort of, um, of the skin I was wearing and the role I was playing. And so I— that, that chat with you was amazing because I felt very alone. And I'm sure that maybe some people missing— listening to this will probably have had the same experience, that in this beautiful world of integrative and functional medicine, we do feel alone when we start talking about spirituality and, and consciousness. And then we discover if you have these conversations, that you're not alone. And so I think speaking to you was like, wow, it's, you know, I can have this amazing conversation with you and not be judged for it. And, or even better than that, you know, supported by it. And then I had another conversation and another conversation, and I realized that there was a large group of us in this, in this world who were all going through the same experience or had been through the same experience 20 years before me. And, but, but I think it was your conversation that was a trigger to kind of give me the confidence to be able to speak up and share with, with everyone else.

Well, yeah. I, and I felt like we were kindred spirits in that moment. And, you know, whatever happens is, I feel, when it's supposed to happen, right? So like it was the perfect timing for you. And what I really love about you, one of the things is like you get really intense. Like when you get into something, all of a sudden you have gone down the rabbit hole. You are reading, you're podcasting, you're, you're doing it all. And in short order after that IHS meeting, if I recall correctly, you presented at A4M that next January on genetics and correct me if I'm wrong, but spirituality, kind of a, I don't know the exact title. And then you did it again, I think for, uh, IFNA, right? So you—

That's right. Yeah. So it's about one year from our conversation where I went from presenting at IHS in very traditional genetics, probably detox or hormones or something, and a year later I presented at A4M on, on the genetics and epigenetics of spirituality and consciousness in mental health. And that was— that defines my year from 2024 to 2025, um, where I was very attached to the work I'd done and trying to figure out how do I bring the work that I've done, which I feel safe in— genetics, epigenetics— into this new world, spirituality and consciousness, and try find where the connection is, um, and try bring the worlds together. And so that presentation in January '25, I told it's like coming out the closet for me because it was the first time I got on stage and in front of a whole lot of people said, you know, spirituality and consciousness important in health, and here's why. And so that was, that was a year really transition to stepping onto a stage and speaking my truth.

And I'm so glad you did, because I feel like in, in parallel with all of that, just knowing you as a friend, I know that you were also doing a lot of self-discovery and exploration, right? You were doing retreats and you were going to different workshops and you really got kind of a smorgasbord of all of these different people's takes in that whole arena, if you will.

So yeah, I did my summer sabbatical, which I highly recommend. Yes, that's right. So I, as I said, my awakening into spirituality wasn't gentle. And as Deanna said, like, as you say, I'd never do anything half. Like, I dive in, I immerse.

I love that.

I eat, sleep, and dream. It's just, yeah, I've always been like that. I'll probably always be like that. The problem with it is that I felt like the rug had been pulled out from me. Like, if I'm not Dr. Jaffe, PhD, who am I? If I'm not new to genomics, who am I? Who do I wanna be if I'm not that person? Like, what does the next part of my career look like? And what does my life look like? And I was really having something of a spiritual breakdown, you could call it. And so I decided to take a sabbatical. I'd been working, as we all do, very, very hard for many, many decades and just couldn't, couldn't do it anymore. So I managed, I was very lucky to be given the opportunity to take the summer off. And I planned, mostly planned, a lot of it was spontaneous, some of it was planning, this extraordinary, extraordinary summer which I highly recommend if you ever have a chance to do it. That had all different kinds of experiences in. And whether, you know, it was, it was a lot of retreats. It was some psychedelic retreats, some non-psychedelic retreats, yoga and silence. Um, it was my favorite. We always laugh about is a goddess, a naked goddess retreat in a rural lake in Wisconsin. It was a lot about connection, a lot about connection and community. It was a lot about curiosity and learning what was happening that I had no idea was happening around me. It was a lot of vulnerability, especially in the psychedelic work that needed a lot of integration and a lot of work. And I pretty much traveled for most of the summer, and some of it just was beautifully spontaneous. I met people who met people who invited me, and I just said yes. And I said yes to everything. And I remember at the end of the sabbatical, what I call my sabbatical, coming up with my top 10 learnings of all the things that I'd learned over that. It was probably like 6, 7 weeks of traveling. And they were so fundamental that I absolutely knew that my life could not carry on the way it had been since I was, you young, since I was a child, I had been behaving in a certain way my entire life. And that I'd come to a point, which was kind of end of the summer, where I was like, okay, it's, it's a chrysalis, it's a butterfly, it's a, it's a new beginning. So it's very aligned with what we were talking about in the, the planets, that, um, that I really needed to be brave and, and step into what it would look like for me if, if I embraced spirituality, consciousness, the universe, spirits, and see where it takes me.

So of those 10 revelations from your summer sabbatical of last year, and also thinking about what you just said about letting go of who you were as you were growing up and how you had had these beliefs, or you were kind of living in a certain way, what is— do you remember any one out of that 10 that you feel like was most impactful. I remember you had one about fear.

Yes.

Which I think impacted me. I, I don't know which one impacted you the most and felt like that was really kind of like what started the crack of the egg to allow for this new beginning.

That was a big one. So it was about, um, releasing fear and embracing love, um, on so many levels because I realized unbeknownst to me that a lot of the things the decisions and choices I've made in my life have been driven by fear. And I think there are many of us who can relate to this. It's the fear of scarcity, you know, the fear of not having money or not having acknowledgement or not having community or not having status. And I also realized one of my big aha is that a lot of the work we do in the world of medicine is based on fear, that we make choices around food or lifestyle because of a fear of getting cancer or a fear of getting Alzheimer's. And so fear is embedded in everything we do from a molecular cellular level right through to emotional psychological level. And I realized that actually fear was part of the disease condition and the only thing really, I mean, we love our nutrients, we love our health, but actually love was the real, real way to heal. And so that had never been part of my conversation. It had never been part of my work. It had never been part of any concept of mine. I mean, obviously I love my children and I, you know, love the ocean, but I never understood how at every single level from cellular, biochemical, molecular level, love was so integral and how much fear had driven my life from zero. Fear had driven my choices. So trying to let go of fear, which is no mean feat, um, it's, it's really, really hard and is a continuous journey, it became really important. So I think that was one. If I have to think of one other, and there were so many good ones, but I think one other was about, um, just being present. Um, you know, I've always been quite ambitious and building things. I've always— I'm a— I love creating and I love building, but it was always I could never just be present. I had to be already thinking about what I was going to do, what I was going to build, what I was going to create, what I was going to make happen, and I was never able to just be. It was— I'm a doer, not a being person. And so the great challenge of just to be in this moment and just appreciate this exact moment without trying to control or, or create something was really powerful. And I think all these things I'm saying are a lifetime of work. They're not a summer of work that you get to the end of summer and go, well, that was great, figured that out, I'm done. I've sort— these are, are 24/7 for all of us, you know. Um, especially— I mean, Deanna, you and I are the same in that way. We, we are busy people and we like to be busy and we like to make things. And so trying to shift from that to just being gently present was like, I didn't think people could live like that, you know. And so I'd say, you know, you put those two things together and you already just have the two out of the 10. You can imagine a very different way of being and a very different person to be. Yes.

And in fact, I'm kind of reflecting on both of those things combined. So if we think of like acting out of fear and then not being present, kind of in that state of vigilance or not feeling safe or needing to ensure that survival needs are being met. Right. So it's kind of like those two kind of have that Venn diagram. And I know that you're from South Africa, right?

I didn't—

you didn't have that in your bio. Maybe people can tell by how you speak. I I know that about you. And I've also been to South Africa. And I want you to go back a little bit into your childhood as far as, you know, when did those imprints kind of set in, let's just say epigenetically, right? Like, how was that set from a very young age where you had like this sense of fear and this sense of survival where you really couldn't be present? Right? Because that's a different level of security and knowing that everything is well. So what do you want to tell us about your upbringing in South Africa?

Yeah, so I was brought up during the apartheid era. Everyone knows about the apartheid era. But I was also brought up during the unraveling of apartheid. So when you're brought up in apartheid, it's this Truman Show Pleasantville illusion of safety. Because it was controlled by the government and you lived in this false— I mean, it truly was a false reality. And then you grow up and you go to high school and you realize you've been living a lie and that everything is a lie, that you've been— you literally live in this place where you believe that only white people live in this country except for your servants, and that your affluent indulgent life is everyone has access to. And the cracks— I mean, literally, if you've watched Truman Show, Pleasantville, it's exactly like that. They start getting cracks that you start seeing through, and you start realizing that you've been lied to your whole life about, about where you live and the people in your country, in the world. And when that crack happens, um, it's, it's very traumatic. And I live my kind of teenage years and my early university years were during the time when apartheid broke open, and there was obviously a lot of violence and a lot of repression, and I became very politically activated, as you would be. That became more important to me than high school or getting grades or anything, but it was very unsafe to be in that environment, so there was— you could be locked up with no lawyer representation. You could be in isolation for 3 weeks without having to be notified, family notified. So it was, it was a very terrifying time because you, you wanted to help, but you also were really terrified. And obviously my family weren't very supportive of my activities. But, and university was not the university that you experience here. It was tear gas and it was mostly disrupted. I mean, we hardly ever were in class because the army was on campus. So what it does is it really drives your nervous system. And the reality is South Africa's never recovered. So we went from breaking apartheid and creating our first truly democratic government, which is great, but this beautiful time with Mandela, which is our honeymoon. And then South Africa descended into a time of crime, criminality, where, like Deanna Minich, if you've been to South Africa, you know everything is, is electric fences and alarms and everything, everything's got bars on. And so my whole life actually has been lived with an external fear of being safe. And and then you have children and you have to keep them safe. So I didn't realize— I moved to the US 5 years ago and I didn't realize how that fear of literally being safe, not being murdered, gets under your skin and gets into your body and you just normalize it. And I don't think I realized that until I came to the US and after a few years realized that I wasn't terrified anymore. In the middle of the night. And so it's interesting to see what role fear plays for a lifetime. Imagine like decades and decades of fear and then having to undo that. So I've been a very vigilant person, very always looking out for the things that could go wrong or protecting, especially protecting my children. And so to be present, to be present and just being, and to choose love and not fear is a very, very different way to be, to try find safety. And in the transition, in the transition that I've been going through emotionally, my life, my work, You have to give up so much that you built to keep you safe. You get a job with a salary and a status and a role and some letters after your name that define you and keep you safe, and then you choose to step away from that and you go back to being, you know, the young girl in South Africa whose fear is fear. So this is a long-term exploration of how to, to step away from that fear.

Wow. Yeah, I'm already getting a feeling of what it could have been like for you there in terms of like just setting the stage for that emotional milieu and how it doesn't leave. It's not like you can just turn that around so quickly because it's built into you. So you came to the States. Now, just before we get into kind of you being in the United States and all of that. One of the other things that I know about you, and perhaps this is your progression from the university, was you were also really into art. You're an artist. You are, you know, that's a whole other path to you that I think not many people know. So how was that transition? Because here you were very politically active, you know, into science, uh, you know, just kind of navigating your environment. So where did art art enter into all of this?

Well, actually, art was always there. Art was the default. Um, the science was the, the kind of rabbit hole. But, um, I loved art. I did art at school. I did arts out of school. Um, when I was going through my political activism, my parents were quite horrified. So the moment— there's great irony in what happened— but the moment I finished school, they sent me to Israel. And to go and do, to go to do a year of university in Israel. And the irony of this was that Israel was going through, Israel's always going through something, but at that time when I was there and I was at university in Jerusalem, it was Yasser Arafat. And there was, they were burning Israeli flags, they were throwing petrol bombs into buses. And I happened to be on a bus with a petrol bomb that was thrown in, in the middle of East Jerusalem, which is, which is not the Jewish part of Jerusalem. And I had to run in there, jump out of a, you know, you've seen movies, jump out of a bus that's in flames and jump out the back window, which you can break open. And so I went from one unsafe environment, they sent me, you know, to a safe environment, which landed up being equally traumatic. And I wanted to study art and I applied to stay there and do art, and my father believed that art was a hobby and not a profession. So I came back to South Africa and I started architecture because architecture is a beautiful expression of art, and I do love buildings very, very much. So I was like, it was academic enough to make my parents happy and art enough to make me happy, and so I did architecture. And then after a year, my grand— got, um, well, she had cancer, but they discovered it very, very late. By the time they discovered the cancer, it was too late for her, and she only lived for another 3 months. And this was in 19— gosh, what are we, '88, '89, 1989, where we knew so little, you know, we knew so little. And, um, and we definitely knew a little in South Africa, and no one would talk to me about why she got cancer, what she could have done differently, how they could have treated her differently. It was the most awful experience. They wouldn't tell her she had cancer. They lied to her about— it was just the worst. Yeah, and I can see your face, Deanna.

Wow.

They would— the rabbi would not tell her the truth about why she was dying. And she kept on saying to me, I know I'm dying, and I wasn't allowed to have a conversation with her. So it was a very fundamental time in my life. I used to sit with— I loved my gran. She was a really big influence in my life. Very nurturing, very, very kind. Taught me how to cook and crochet and knit and play rummy queue and all those things. And when she died, when I was sitting with her in the last couple of weeks, I was like, you know, this is not good enough. Like, this is not how you should die. This is not how you should have lived. They should have found the cancer. They should have been able and I was making her vegetable soup. You know, she's like 2 weeks away from passing, and I'm making vegetable soup because I believe, you know, and I'm studying Optimum Nutrition Bible because in those days that's the only— Macrobiotics and Optimum Nutrition Bible were the only things I could find that were giving me answers. So when my gran passed, I decided to leave. I left architecture. It was a very clear decision for me. And I went on this journey to find health, to learn about health, which was not an easy thing. In South Africa, we didn't have like an MD degree, which would have been, I think, perfect for me. I would have been— that's exactly what I was looking for. I was looking for a naturopathic physician degree. It didn't exist. So I discovered— I went to study dietetics, knowing very well that was not what I needed because it was just too mainstream. To unhealthy, um, but got that degree and then went searching and searching and searching and searching and found genetics in a, at a very exciting time when genetics was, you know, the year 2000 was just being spoken about. Yeah. You know, I just, I was, um, I'm very much of the fake it until you make it, you know. I didn't know much about genetics, but I was like, I'm gonna jump in there and as said, like, I moose, I jump in, I got the textbook. And yeah, 25 years later, I was still in genetics, but I stopped all my art. And so one of the wonderful things that I've been doing for the last year is I've gone back to art lessons. And it's, it's, yeah, it's quite something when you haven't done it for 25 years, and just loving it so much. Yeah. So it's, it's my real treat and luxury to get that part of my brain engaged and to have that stillness. I mean, talk about presence. You know, you're an artist when you're painting or when you're drawing, you are truly present. And there's not many times when I have that, that feeling.

Do you think that when you're in that zone of coherence, when you're painting, drawing, making art, that that is where the healing from a lot of the stress occurs? Do you feel like that, like you're saying, you find yourself more in the present moment, but what about the past and kind of like working through a lot of the stress or at least cultivating resilience? I know just to toss in like a science nugget here, I mean, basically that's how many art therapies are used is actually to help with emotional and mental health. So I'm curious because that was kind of my path. I was drawn to art when, and I used it as kind of like that stress management modality, but I don't know if you did, and I'm just curious.

Intentionally, I, I don't think it was intentional. I think, and I never knew that once I started drawing and painting, I would experience that zone. Like, I think I had it as a child when I did art, and I haven't had it since. And so it was a total delight to know that I could sit for 3 hours and not notice the time go by and just be entirely present. But I'm not sure that I intentionally went into it. I just knew that I could be in a different place when I'm drawing than when I'm working and at my computer. But I don't think it was intentional, but I think I'm going to sit with that. And also it was a lot, you know, after 25 years, you, you, If I ever defined myself, and it's fun you call me an artist because I would never do that, but actually I'm doing art, so I'm an artist. But the courage to go back and say, I'm going to do something I'm not good at, I used to be good at, but I'm not good at now, when I've been on this professional success train for so long, was a very important part of the journey. And that was part of the release of saying, I'm going to do something because I love to do this, irrespective of whether it earns money, or it defines me as successful. And I think that vulnerability in art has definitely been a healing for me. So that has been healing, um, for sure, um, because it took a lot of courage for me to go, okay, I can do this, you know, no matter what it is. Um, the value is in the doing and not what the outcome is. So I don't know if that answers question, but that's been my experience.

Yeah, that's really beautifully said. So the other thing that I know about you is that you're really connected to the water element. You know, we kind of looked at your childhood. Now you transition into doing more with architecture. You're inspired through your gran in terms of natural healing. But where did this love of water come from? Was it just the fact that you were in South Africa and you would be swimming swimming, or where does water enter into the picture?

That's a great question because I grew up inland in South Africa. Um, so swimming pools was my water growing up. Um, and I loved swimming, you know, I swam at school and I swam on the team and I loved swimming, but I, I, I grew up inland and, you know, for 10 days of the year, we would go down to the coast for, for our summer holiday. And, and I would love the ocean and the waves, but I would be way too brave for my age and probably almost die a couple of times. So that started quite young, like engaging with the ocean in a way that probably wasn't safe. But my true love— and I do love all water, I love lakes and rivers and, um, ponds, I mean, I love all water— but I particularly love the ocean. I mean, I really truly love the ocean, and I always had a yearning to be by the coast. So I was brought up my family was inland, and the moment I could move from home, the moment, it was my deep yearning. I had to live by the coast. And other than 2 years in Boulder, Colorado, which was work-related, I have never lived anywhere other than by the sea because I've realized that there's, there's an equilibrium that I find when I live near water. And I don't have it when I live inland. And it was a great test being in Boulder because Boulder is amazing, it's a fantastic place to live. But when you imagine like a fish that you take out of water and it's like flapping on the side and it's like flapping, that's how I felt. I felt like a flapping fish in Boulder. I couldn't breathe properly, the dryness and being away from— and they have like a reservoir in Boulder. I used to spend a lot of time swimming in the reservoir, and I realized that there's no place in this world where I can live anywhere other than next to an ocean. And it doesn't matter if it's like 20 minutes away driving, still live by, and you know, I live in Seattle and I, I can always get into the lake or I can get into an ocean or I can get into a river if that's what's available to me. And I just realized that there's, there's a calmness and an equilibrium that happens to me when I live near water and even more so when I'm in water. And then when I was Living in Durban in South Africa, I love playing in the ocean, but I wasn't a swimmer in the ocean. I was just swimming in a swimming pool. And someone said to me, why don't you try, you know, go swim a mile in the ocean. Almost drowned my first mile, which I always laugh about. It was so hard. And it just, it was like an awakening. It was like, this is where I belong. I want to do this for the rest of my life. And it set me off on a journey of Everywhere I go in the world, I find water. And it has become, it's almost like another job of mine that, like, I was in Aspen, Colorado last weekend to go and see a friend just outside Aspen. And Aspen is, you know, mountain biking and it's skiing and it's hiking. And the first thing I look up is where can I swim in Aspen? It's like the least swimming place in the whole of the USA. And I'm like, and I was with a wonderful swimming friend who's just as obsessed with swimming as me, and we found a reservoir, a huge reservoir up in the mountains, and off we went with our goggles and our swim cap, and we weren't happy until we had actually immersed ourselves. And then we went into the river and we sat in the river. So that's been probably 20 years of my life that I will seek out water, and first prize is always ocean, um, wherever I go in the world. And so I would go to conferences, like we travel for conferences, and whether it was in the US or international, and I would always add on a day, and that day would be my swimming day. And again, it may not be an ocean, it might be a river or lake, but— and I just found a connection to— like, you get people who love hugging trees. I love trees as well, but not in the same way that I love the ocean, that when you are in it, you feel part of it. That I feel like I'm part of something bigger, that I feel like I'm connected to source, that I came from the ocean and I'm back in the ocean. And that's the only way to describe it, is that I'd never feel like that when I'm on land. And so I crave Unfortunately, it's a bit cold where I live now, so it's harder for me to spend— I used to swim every day in the ocean when I lived in South Africa, every single day. And it brings equilibrium and it brings calm and it brings healing. In the open water community, we always say, you know, that there's no such thing as a bad swim because you will go in with all the stress of your day. Everything will be difficult for you and you'll have pain in your neck and your back and headaches and worrying about work and everything. And you will go into that water and if you go in for 5 minutes or 10 minutes, it doesn't have to be an hour swim, you will come out a different person.

Hmm.

And, and it's absolutely true. It helps with addiction, it helps with bipolar, it helps. It's, it's incredibly healing. So that has been a very big part Anyway, you got me talking about swimming, you'll never get me not talking about swimming. Anyway, that's been a very big part of my life.

It sounds like a spiritual practice for you in the way of like really bringing you into that place of connection. So it feels like art brings you into presence and the water brings you into connection into something greater.

Yeah, I mean, people always used to say, "Do you meditate?" And I was like, "No, I go swimming." And, you know, it was a bit clichéd and a bit glib to say, and I'm not sure I even understood what I was saying, but that experience of being in the ocean and the waves and the current and the motion and the energy, the energy inherent in emotion is so powerful. And if you just— the trick is not to fight it, you know, if you fight the ocean, you'll never be happy, but to go like, I give myself to you, I know you're dangerous, I respect the danger of it, but I surrender is a spiritual practice of the ocean and it'll deliver you back on the beach at some point, hopefully, you know, in one piece. And there is a danger inherent in it, which I think is part of it for me, you know, that vulnerability that I'm sure people experience when they hike very big mountains, that we're very small in relation to nature. And you definitely feel like that when you're in the ocean. And I think that humbling is part of the spiritual practice.

Do you ever paint or draw the ocean or things in the sea? Like, do you find that there's kind of this cross-fertilization of the two?

I haven't yet. I think I haven't been— I haven't yet. It's— I've thought about that, painting the ocean. I think that, um, I will get there, but it's quite something. It's quite something. I think I need more training before I tackle the ocean. At the moment, I'm very stuck on vegetables, actually.

Really? That's interesting.

It's so funny, Art, being a dietitian, I keep on drawing vegetables. I'm so drawn to drawing vegetables. Who knew that I would feel so passionately about drawing vegetables? Isn't that funny? That's my, like, nutritionist, dietitian self, like, finding joy in drawing a vegetable.

And when you— I've seen some of your drawings and it seems like they're more sketches and it's black and white or you're using charcoal. Do you ever find that you're into a color? Are you connected to any colors specifically, at least now at this time of your life?

So I, I'm, I'm trying to build my skills again, to be honest. So I started with painting and I realized that I'd lost my drawing skills over 25, 30 years. So actually now I'm really focused on classical drawing skills to try and really get that foundational stuff. And I love the black and white, I love the charcoal, I love the pencil in its purest form. And every time I draw one of my vegetables, like I did a green pepper, there was like, I really just want to get in there with the green, but I'm kind of holding back because I really want to get the skill back and then I can unleash like I just want to do a big green pepper with lots of green, but I feel like I just need to build more skill, and then I'll be sending you photos of big green peppers and big eggplants and purples and greens and blues. So it's coming, but I realize that there is something to be said for learning skills, you know, and not just throwing myself in and like Um, so that's, that's where I'm at the moment.

You know, it's interesting listening to you. I don't think I've ever had this realization with you as a person, but you truly seem to have this strong archetype of a builder. And I know that you've referred to yourself as a builder. So even what you just said about art, how first let's just get the structure. Let's, let's understand the skill. It's almost like these building blocks and like there's a sequence, right? Or even when you were building your company. Or building your professional world. And so I'm curious, do you apply that kind of builder sense to other things that might be more personal growth, like relationships, or how you solve maybe emotional problems or things that come up for you that are challenging? Like, how, how does that sense of building and creating a foundation really move into kind of your spiritual psychosocial world? I'm just curious of how it permeates.

It's a good question. I think the word that comes to mind is intentional. I'm quite intentional. So when, like with the spirituality, when I realized that this was going to be so big for me and so such a big change for me, I, I would spend a lot of time being intentional about the plan. Like, I'm going to take a sabbatical, I'm going to go and do yoga and silence. I'm going to, um, like, I think I'm— that's where that intentional building is, is it's the same with art. Like, I want to do good art, I need to go back to the basics. I want to do good spiritual work, I need to go and do some silent practice. I need to do some meditation practice. I need to go to some retreats. I— the one thing about me, I don't know if you know this about me, is I love being taught by other people. I love it. I am not someone who tries to figure things out on YouTube. I'm the one who signs up for the course and another course and another course. I love teachers. I love coaches. I love yoga teachers. I love swimming coaches. I never, um, which probably most people are quite surprised about me, like I am not the figure it out yourself person. I'm the find the best teacher you can person. And that, that was very much my career. Like, a lot of the success of my career was because of the mentors I found along the way, and they were— they had such a big impact on me because I would, I would seek them. I would intentionally go look for an outstanding mentor, a wonderful art teacher, a fantastic swim coach, and then I would immerse myself in it. Like, I would say yes to everything. I would go to every practice, every class, But funny enough, my son is the complete opposite. He doesn't want to. He's a brilliant artist, brilliant artist, and I've tried everything to up, like, I'll pay for any art teacher, you can go to art college, you can— not interested. He's like, I'll teach myself art. And I'm like, how do you even teach yourself art? Like, I don't get how you teach yourself. I love people teaching me. And so I'm very intentional in that building of saying, and it doesn't matter if it's spirituality, or it's art, or it's swimming, or it's cooking. I'll go to— I'll go to cooking classes. I just love being around people who know things and, and that can impart their beautiful knowledge to me. And then I like to be a teacher as well. I take— when I'm an expert in something, and as you know, we both love teaching, and then I take what I have and I impart it to the next person. So teaching and being taught, um, has been a really big part of my life. And I'm not the, um, I'm just gonna figure this out and hope for the best. I'm very much, um, like, I've signed up for two art courses— not one, two— because I wanted one drawing and one oil, because I just, I want to be in the presence of an expert.

Yeah, actually, I didn't know that about you, so that is really interesting. So when you're looking for a mentor or a teacher, what are some of the things that you're looking for in terms of— I mean, are you truly just looking at the skill? Like, who are some of the people that are inspiring you now in the spiritual space? Like, how do you discern who's giving you kind of the, the authentic truth? Or do you just kind of go with like your, your sense, your, your feeling about the person?

You know, the spiritual space is harder As you all know, because, um, first of all, I'm new to it. I call myself— I'm very amateur in my opinion. Couple of years, um, and I think in the spiritual space, the person that speaks to you right now might in 3 months' time not be the person. So I think in art and in genetics, the person who speaks to you with the expertise can be with you for 5, 10 years and really train you. I think in the world of spirituality, there is so much going on. And what— like, we've had this conversation before— what, like, someone that I absolutely loved a year ago who was my go-to person for learning is now not, not even featured in my life, and I've moved on. So I think spirituality is more fluid depending on how you're feeling, what's happening around you, what they're presenting. And I've tried to keep myself very curious in this space, and I probably have like 2, 3 people I'm following at any one time. And I get very excited when I meet someone, so I try and go to retreats to expose myself to new people. And then I'll find someone like you're meeting me where I am right now. And they may be the person that I want to read every book they've written. Again, immerse myself, read every book. I've signed for a one-on-one. I'm going to the retreat in March next year, and they will carry me through this time. And then I'll probably be like surfing a wave and come out. And then, so I think spirituality is a little bit different because it's not defined in like genetics is defined in a way, or even, you know, even nutrition. We have a lot of diversity of who we'll turn to as an expert, but genetics probably less so. And so with spirituality, I find like, like it's surfing a lot of waves, that what works right now, I'm, I'm just flowing with that, learning, being present, being curious, and it's very likely in 6 months' time it'll be someone else. So, so there isn't a mentor for me in the way that there was for genetics and nutrition in my work. That was very linear, but I guess spirituality is never going to be linear, so it kind of makes sense.

It's really interesting. I never thought about it like that, the fluidity of teachers and, you know, especially things are moving so rapidly now. And so, and it's a different kind of way to codify information. You don't go to a textbook or, you know, Well, you could, but, you know, it's just different. So give us a short list, like with you right now, like some of your spiritual topics of interest. Like if somebody said, okay, just give us like your top 3, like what are you into? What's drawing you in? Whether it, you know, I don't know, you mentioned the word consciousness, but maybe you can unpack that a little bit. Like when you're thinking of consciousness or spirituality, what are like the top 3 things that would pull you into a podcast or pull you into a teacher? What, what are those buzzwords?

So, um, the one person I'm very, very interested in at the moment, who I'm really enjoying, um, is really about— she helps people develop connection with spirit. So building relationship with spirit, and whatever that looks like for you, whether it's mediumship or being an intuitive or being a psychic or being an empath, um, and she's practical and genuine and grounded, and if you met her at a coffee shop, you wouldn't know how extraordinary she is. So that's one area, is because I'm so brain-driven, and I always have been, in my head and not in my heart. I'm a very head person. It's hard to get out of your head and into your heart. And to create that very personal relationship with spirit. So that's one of the areas that I'm very interested in exploring and doing better in and being guided. Again, finding a great teacher to how do I move out of my intellectual self, which is definitely my stronger self. That's the one area that I'm very interested in. I think I'm very— I don't actually know as much about astrology as you do. You know so much and I know so little, but I'm very drawn to it and I feel it very strongly. So when something's happening in a— with the planets, I feel it. So I don't understand the, the intellectual part of astrology. I haven't studied it, but I'm— I always have the experience of it. So I'm fascinated by— and I've had a wonderful astrologer for like 25 years, and it's only in the last like 5 years that I've realized what a journey I've walked with her. Um, so I'm fascinated by that, even without, um, without having the kind of intellectual capacity of understanding astrology. And probably the last thing, you know, is, is energy. I'm very interested by energy, and I'm interested how frequency and the energy we function at changes everything, and that it changes our relationships It changes our parenting. It changes our engagement when we go buy coffee from the coffee shop. It changes our health. And so I'm very interested in my energy and how it's shifted so much over the years. I was a very angry, very angry, very ambitious, very driven person. And now I can sit a lot and come to the end of the day and not have achieved a million things and go, "That was a very nice day." And so I'm very interested in how that the frequency we choose and work on really shifts the world around us. So I'd say like those are the 3 things that I'm really enjoying at the moment.

I like those. Those are really— especially the energy one. And I'm wondering if science will catch up to that a bit in terms of helping us to get our head around that, like what that means beyond just ATP in the body.

Yeah, I mean, I think it is. I mean, we have Reiki, we're using energy healing in the integrative world. I mean, I think energy healing is probably more than we've ever seen it. I think it's— and I think that the next level is cellular energy and that biochemical energy that really changes again. And what is the impact of love on energy? What is the impact of fear on energy? How do nutrients interact with that energy? I can see you doing a beautiful presentation on nutrient interaction with energy, and I'll leave that one for you. And I think that we've come a long way, and I don't even think we realize how far we've come. Now, if we look at the topics of conferences, we look at the topics that you're presenting, I mean, 2 years ago it would have been unheard of in a mainstream conference, would have been absolutely unheard of. And so I think the, the spirituality and consciousness is finding its way in, and it's a very exciting time to, to be part of it and to be in these conversations. Um, because just listen to your podcast and all the amazing people you've interviewed. They are absolute leaders in this beautiful— in this world of medicine and health and nutrition. They are at the forefront and they are having conversations about spirituality and consciousness. So it's inevitable, it's inevitable that it becomes more of our dialogue and more of our exploration, and we'll do more research for those people that need proof. I'm not a big proof person, but, um, some people need proof, like, in kind of peer-reviewed, evidence-based proof. Some just believe, um, But I think we're going to see more of both. And I, I look forward to the day where we're having coffee at an IHS conference and, you know, 80% of the presentations are about spiritual molecules. And I believe that we're definitely heading in that direction.

I love that. Well, and we create it. So I think we're heading there like you're alluding to. So here you are in 2026 and you are embarking upon this spiritual journey, really getting deep into it, really moving with your new self in a, in a whole new way. So if we can just kind of project out of it, when do you see that you're at this place of arriving, or where you feel like, oh, because one of the things I detect from you is like there is this, this place for experience and skill building and like getting to a point of like where you've reached a threshold where it's like now you're in a state of knowing. So do you feel like in your spiritual worlds, you at your age now looking forward, do you kind of feel like, okay, by the time I do these things or I am these things, I feel like I'm no longer an amateur. I really feel like this is where I'm headed. Or do you feel like you're— it's always evolving and it's— you're always in that place anyway?

So I think this is a different game, this one. So I think that I will spend the rest of my life that is open to me learning and exploring the space. I feel like it's so immense and it's changing so quickly and there's so much to learn and experience, not just learn but experience, that I feel like I'll probably be in 5 and 10 years' time saying the same thing to you, saying I'm an amateur in this. Uh, probably saying the same thing about my art as well, saying like, I just— I feel the same way about art as I do about spirituality, that I've come to it very late in life, and this will be the rest of my life. This is what I will spend the rest of my life exploring and experiencing, and I'm not sure that I will ever arrive. And that's okay in both of them. It's, it's, it's absolutely okay. Um, But this is a different journey that is so immense and so deep and so wide that I think that the more you learn in the world of spirituality, the more you connect with spirit, the more you, the more opens up to you and then the more you have to learn. So I think that this one is probably the bottomless pit of experience and I'm not sure that there's a, okay, I've ticked Genetics off now. I'm— I can move on in this one. Beautifully said.

Kind of like the ocean, it's expansive. Well, intuitively, I feel like as we come to a close here, I just want to ask you quickly about your children. Uh, how do they figure into this whole spiritual conversation? Do you feel like the kids that are— well, kids versus adults— do you feel like they're coming in in a different maybe a different resonance or a different vibration? Or how do you see that your children's generation and your kids are a bit different spiritually than maybe you were growing up?

Oh my gosh, yes. I mean, yes, especially my one child. I mean, I think my— I think, yes, I think that they live in a very different world. I never thought about things like climate. And survival and is there a future and what are we responsible for and community and diversity and my kids are thinking about all these things at a very young age. They understand injustice. They understand destruction of the world and the earth at a very young age. So it's really interesting that things that I probably grappled with my late 20s, they're experiencing from very young. It's such a burden for them to— I don't think there is that innocence of youth, certainly not in any of the children I know anymore, that they really are carriers of this world. And even if they don't identify as spiritual, I think they're more connected to this earth and to this world than we were as kids. Well, speaking for myself, I mean, my life was marked, you know, my grades at school and the sport that I did and my best friend. That was that until politics came in. But it was really defined by a very simple understanding of the world. There was no internet, there was no TV. I didn't have TV until I was 10. So it was a very simple life, which was a gift in many ways. And our children do not have that gift. The complexity of their world. And I have two, as you all know, two very different children. One who feels injustice in every cell in his body and will spend his life trying to fix it and fight for it. And the other one who is much more gentle in the world and just wants to play football and hang out with his friends and will probably do better, you know, navigating the system. And I think the other thing that's showing up in our children is the structures that we have put in place, how inadequate they are, like school and the education system, jobs, university, college, debt, college debt, how all these systems that were set up are not serving our children. And there are people who are trying to find alternative solutions for our children. So I think they've got a big journey ahead of them with what we're giving them. And I'm in awe of watching them trying to navigate it and feeling like, I hope I've given them enough skills because they're gonna need— yeah, I think they're gonna need all the skills that they've got, but they're extraordinary. I mean, they They're extraordinary in being able to live in this very complicated world.

They really are. That's why I really wanted to ask you about that, because I feel so many times that the children are the teachers and they're bringing in kind of like the new wave of this information and really reflecting back to us. And your kids, I especially feel that with.

I mean, I've said this to you, that my oldest son is my teacher. Entirely. And if, you know, if you've done the soul work and you've done your Akashic Records and you've, you know, done all that, uh, it was no surprise to me, um, in my journey as a mother of, of, um, what the purpose of being a mother was and why I have this extraordinary child and how they truly are the teacher and I am learning from him. And I wouldn't be even half the person I am without my children. And not because of the cliché of, you know, like, I'm a mom and everything. No, because, because of the things that I've learned about the world and about being a human and about being the things we care about, whether it's bugs or trees or, you know, um, so I think that spirituality plays a big role in parenting, and I think that, um, it's complete my, my my exploration of spirituality and my journey as a soul has changed how I parent fundamentally, fundamentally. And that is, that's a big deal. That's a really big deal.

Have they commented on that or noticed or made some remark about it?

They do. I mean, they kind of laugh at me, like they're like, you know, the woo-woo hippie mom. But, um, yeah, they definitely, they definitely have noticed the difference. I mean, we often laugh about it because they do like, like laugh at my new interests in life and how, you know, I've got crystals all over the house. And, and I think they really, they always say they talk about me as Sabbatical Mom. So Sabbatical was when I really embraced, really embraced this different way of being. And they always say, we love Sabbatical Mom, like we don't want you to go back to work, Mom. We, and what they're saying, you know, like, we love you being present, you're curious, you're listening, you're calmer, you're not busy all the time, you're doing some weird stuff, which actually is kind of fun for us, you know. And so I had some great awakenings around the way I was parenting and also who I was parenting, because I think when we parent, we think we're parenting ourselves, like what was important to me as a child. Teenager, um, was the way I was parenting. And, and then you realize that they're, they're their own souls and their own humans, and it's not going to work. And so I had to really dig deep and say, like, that was my story, and it wasn't even who I was. It was just who I was made to be in my family at the time I was growing up, um, you know, success, grades, sport, just all of that. And actually, I'm Applying that metric of success to my children when, why? And so releasing all of that and surrendering all of that and saying, you want to go to school, go to school. You don't want to go to school, don't go to school. You know, like, was huge for me as an academic to be able to release that. And so I've been able to work through a lot of my childhood things through understanding that my children will be their own little souls and they will walk their journey. And I'm just here to hold space for them and love them. And it may not be the way that I would like it to come out. And so I think that parenting is exhausting and difficult and the greatest gift for learning these lessons that we need to learn.

And I love how they, they form kind of the faculty for you, right? That's what we were just talking about, all those spiritual teachers and You know, sometimes the most obvious ones are just right there with you.

Right there under the roof. Yeah.

Yeah. This has been a wonderful conversation. I feel like even though I know you, there are certain things that kind of came out and crystallized in this conversation. Really, really nice to just dip into your life and to hold space. Are there any final comments that you want to leave the audience with before we close out? Is there anything that you feel is just so pressing and we didn't get to cover it and, you know, this bridge between science and spirituality.

I would just say two things. One is thank you for your work. I think that this has been just such a joy and a delight getting to know you more. And the more I know you, the more I'm in awe of your heart and the work that you do. And so whether it's a podcast or a conversation, I mean, you you have been so important in that journey and not just for me but for many. So I guess I'd like to say thank you. And then, you know, maybe, you know, we're all on this journey and the more we can speak out, then people will feel safe to speak out. Like, you can always have a cup of coffee with me in the same way we can— you can have a coffee with you because we're having a lot of these little conversations because we feel like it's not safe to talk about spirit and spirituality and consciousness or about losing faith in what we've done for 30 years, like reach out, absolutely reach out. There's a whole bunch of us that are willing and open to have these conversations. And I think that I would, you know, I just really wanna see more of that happening. Yes, love that.

Speaking our truth and getting this all out into the open, and this is the time to do it. Gail, this has been fabulous, and I'm looking forward to having brunch with you this weekend.

Absolutely.

And in the meantime, everybody put your comments below, you know, anything that inspired you here. So thanks so much for the conversation.

And thank you. Thank you for having me.

Thank you.