Science & Spirituality Talks with Shilpa Saxena, MD

Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Science and Spirituality Talks. Today my guest is Dr. Shilpa Saxena. Dr. Saxena is a family physician with over 25 years dedicated to bringing more health and care to the healthcare industry for patients and clinical teams alike. In 2019, her practice sevamed institute joined forum Health Professional, which is a nationwide provider of personalized health services. And there she serves as medical Director of Forum Health Tampa and also chief Medical Officer of forum health nationwide. Dr. Saxena has been teaching for decades. She has taught through many different organizations. One of those that we share in common is the Institute for Functional Medicine. She is also internationally known for her contributions to the development and institution of lifestyle based group medical appointment models. And that's really what I know her for, is how her genius clinically has put in place this infrastructure to make clinical work more engaging, therapeutic and transformative for her patients. And what I really love, as you can see behind her, some artistic flair there. She enjoys balancing her professional mind with nature and her increasing love for painting the human form and experience. Welcome Shilpa. Good to see you.

Great to be here Deanna. Thank you so much for having me.

Well, I couldn't wait. It's been a while since you and I have caught up and you are what I have seen through the decades of knowing you is you are such a go getter. You've done so much and you have been in the trenches, you've been working with patients, you've been trying to make things as efficient as possible. And many people actually look to you for your models, your systems and what you're doing to make that therapeutic encounter even better. So it's great to have this catch up call with you and what I'd like to talk about, since you are a medical doctor, I often like to start with how physicians got on that path of medicine. So maybe we start there and you let us know a little bit about your journey into medicine and healing. Sure.

Well, there. I was born in the US to Southeast Asian Indian immigrant parents and survival was a big part of the context understanding the United States of America. I was born in Queens, New York. I lived in a very insulated little community of many people who only spoke my mother tongue, which was Gujarati. In fact English was not my first language. I did not speak speak English until I started school at which point my mother taught me how to say hello and yes. And so I said hello in the morning and I said yes the rest of the day. And so that actually gave me a very interesting look into how people Behave, because I was suddenly surrounded by people who looked different, behaved different, hugged different, respected books differently. Like so many things that I didn't understand. And having been the firstborn child to immigrant parents of Indian descent, it was kind of cultural that my parents would guide me as to what field they thought I should be in, because so many people coming over in the 60s were. If you think it's just recently post civil rights changes, survival being the big thing. My parents thought that there was a lot of financial and future security in being a physician. It was also very respected in our culture because it was a way to demonstrate that if you put your discipline into something and you increase your intelligence, you can also serve people. So it was funny because my path to medicine was really directed by my parents, and I knew it no other way. I was the first of the family, so there was no other big sister or big brother who was going to be the icebreaker. And I tended to be a nice little obedient girl. In fact, in seventh grade, I got a little dreamy. You know, maybe hormones got me thinking, and I thought I wanted to be a fashion designer. And I remember my father patting me on the back and he said, well, that's really nice, but you're going to be a doctor in the nicest of ways. But really, it occurred to me at that moment, okay, I guess I have to be a doctor. What's interesting is that at age 16, I probably had the eighth vasovagal syncopal episode in my life. I started at age 8, and I ended up in the ER because in many instances in our culture, the healthcare industry is for serious disease and death. And my mother just took care of me when I fainted before. And one of our friends was a pediatrician and, you know, gave some curbside consultations about what was likely happening with me and all that to say that that at age 16, when I fainted, I did not wake up the way I normally would have, and I had a grand mal seizure where it was taken to the emergency room, where I proceeded to get the mri, the tilt table test. And that's when I became personally interested in the puzzle of health and disease, and mostly disease, because that's what I thought medicine was for. I thought I wanted to be a pediatric neurologist because of the seizure disorder they thought that I had, but realized later it wasn't. And then I met this amazing family medicine physician out in rural Florida, and her relationship with her patients reminded me of the art of interaction and service. And so I shifted to Family medicine, despite the lack of. What's the word? Prestige that was associated with that field of medicine. Because in our Indian culture at the time, you know, the more subspecialized, the more procedural, the more years of education, the more respected you would be as a physician. But that's how I ended up as a family physician. Very much inspired by a rural physician who had such an amazing relationship with. With her patients, which reminded me a lot of the community that I grew up in in Queens, New York.

How interesting. And how many siblings do you have? And so out of. Yeah, I'm curious, how big was your family?

Not very big. There's three daughters. But there's cultural dynamics to that. So in an Indian family, not having a son in that generational perspective was different. Now, I didn't realize that until we met with other Indian families. And I would see parents or parents of other children when they spoke to my parents, have some sort of shift in energy. Like, I could sense, like, they seem to be, like, sad for my parents when my parents introduced the three of us. And it occurred to me, I soon picked up that because of cultural traditions, you know, it is thought that girls marry into the boy's family, whereas the son remains a part of his original family. And for many different reasons, I think this Indian community communicated to me that, oh, a son is better than a daughter. That's what I heard as a little kid. And that is where my ambition and, oh, I'm going to prove to you why you wish you had a daughter. Like, that's part of where my ambition comes from is to. Well, we'll call it a. Probably a little trauma, informed ambition. But I wanted to prove to people like you didn't need to have a son to have somebody who was going to make a mark in society. And I wanted to be able to have my parents hold their head high whenever they introduced us, because I knew they were. I didn't know, but I suspected. I felt that they were at a disadvantage culturally.

And then how was that carry through even into medical school? Because so many of the different physicians that I've talked with so far talked with me about hazing, especially if they were female, or feeling this sense of hierarchy, having to prove yourself. So did you feel like that continued on and in a different form when you were in school, continuing to add in this pressure of the masculine, feminine dynamics?

Absolutely. But I was used to it from, you know, a generally patriarchal culture. So it wasn't shocking to me when older male attendings of generally Caucasian background would Treat me differently. I would notice that the female students would get much harder questions when we were doing, like, rounds with our attendings and medical students. And some of these easier questions were lobbed to the male students. Me and some of the female students thought that there were some inequities in the way that tasks were delegated out. I think that was something that we understood was going to be a part of transforming medicine. There's going to have to be women that continue to stand up against the norms and keep proving themselves. I have two daughters, no sons, and it's so interesting for me to see how they're growing up in their 20s, because they. That would be the equivalent of what age I was when I was going through my med school and residency training. And they don't. Although they have some version of this gendering in their workplace. I don't think it was as. What's the word? Obvious. And I don't think it was as saturated as it was back when I was in my 20s, which was around 30 years ago, which is. I wouldn't say. It's tough to say, but, I mean, three decades is a long time.

So, Shilpa, do you feel like, you know what? I'm picking up on your story here with the aspect of daughters, girls, women, the feminine aspect, and how does that eventually come into balance for women who are more pressurized into patriarchal or more masculine roles or infrastructures? Right. So, you know, I'm kind of curious about your progression after medical school and how did you start to align now your divine feminine, if you will, or more of the. The yin aspects of your being, the creative aspects, the flowing aspects, with a lot of the structure that was already carved out from your upbringing and even your education. Do you feel like, you know, there was a time, like maybe in your 30s or 40s where you started to realize, like, well, this is an important piece, and how do I bring that into my life? Or did you just feel like you were already very integrated with these different infrastructures, so it really wasn't something to be exploring?

Oh, no. I think definitely it continues to be an exploration. I think I might. But it's hard to know if the masculine energy within me was catalyzed because of the cultural environment. And also just not just my Indian roots, but also just society at large in America still was still quite patriarchal. I think that I do have quite a logical brain, which is sometimes attributed to masculine energy. I'm also a fighter, warrior spirit, which some people might call masculine energy. And I think that the thing that kept me from being dominantly masculine was I came from a home of three girls where there wasn't a brother that was catered to, and therefore I didn't have to be as feminine. I don't know if that makes sense. And sometimes when you have the juxtaposition of the. A male in the house, then the female boundaries become more evident. And my father is not your typical macho stereotype. Very kind, very quiet, doesn't have an ego, doesn't have to be right in many ways, which is common in a lot of patriarchal societies. So I didn't have this overwhelming masculine oppression in my own house. And my mother grew up in a house, was born and raised in Uganda, Africa, and she was. I always say that we were raised as. It's like three girls in the house. We never had a doll. We had the. We had the Charlie's Angels van, but we never had any Charlie's Angels dolls. My mom tended to be someone who's like, play outside. Have fun. And if there were boys outside, you played with the boys. If there were girls outside, you played with the girls. But what's interesting is, is that I didn't really consider myself masculine or feminine unless I related to the external environment. What I think my creativity comes from and solutions. Like, I think what served me as I went through residency and opened up my practices is that I was able to always see what is it that the patient needs and what's missing in this patient provider relationship versus just structure. And how do you bill and how do you make money? And, you know, not like that, but, like, what's missing? And that's where, like, for example, the group medical appointment came up. It's like connection, engagement, education, wisdom, being efficient with time. These kinds of things, I think, were my feminine energy showing through. I think that it wasn't until age 50 that I really started evaluating how much of that masculine energy was a survival technique and how much do I need to keep holding on to it or. Or can I consciously let go of that and be more feminine? If that is what I was originally before all this external conditioning, I don't know. And that's the exploration I'm in right now.

Do you feel like that led to some of your exploration with painting? So tell me a little bit about painting, because you and I haven't really connected on that piece. And I'd like to know more because you have a painting behind you. And so I'm curious about that because, you know, the exploration into the creative, the flowing it feels like a nice complement to all of your work as a physician. So when did that come in?

Oh, from a very young age. I come from a very artistic family on my mom's side, dancing, artwork. I was dancing since I was a little child. My mom was one of the first Gujarati, which is what we are performers in Central Park. When, you know, Indians, their traditions were not very well known in America. And I would accompany my father and watch my mother dance in Central park as some part of an exhibition of our culture. And I would want to be like her, dress up. You know, I put a blanket around my waist and pretend it was a big flowy skirt and, like, dance around our little apartment. And then when I moved to Florida, I was part of a competitive traditional Indian folk dance team that used to compete in the Southeast. It was super important for me to have expression, and I think it was necessary for me because so many other parts of my ability to express my identity were limited. Because growing up as a teenager in the south, where people did not know what brown was at times, in certain communities, there was very strict kind of demarcations between black and white. In the 80s in smaller towns in Florida, and they did not know what to do with brown. And to be quite honest, I would be around people and I would sometimes understand that I am part of the people who are not white, and that would affect the way that I would present myself. And sometimes I would be put in a group that was not black, and that would affect the way that I would have to behave. And it was very. It was a survival process for me, trying to understand how people categorized me and how I still had to persist to understand how to make peace with however I was categorized and labeled. And I think my creative. My creativity was a personal way to release feelings or ideas that I just couldn't do in community.

And so the creativity that you're speaking to the dance, then you wanted to be a fashion designer.

Yeah.

And then did it morph into other forms of creative expression then?

Yeah. I mean, listen to the story about fashion designing. My mother being culturally very different. When there would be things like Halloween or prom, she just couldn't understand, like, so we're going to spend a lot of money on this one dress you're going to wear one time. I would have to prep her for a year for things like that. So there were. And there were times that I was trying so hard to be part of the majority and, you know, certain. You want me to spend this much money on a white t shirt just because it has this tag on it. And I, you know, of course, being a snotty little teen, I'm like, yes, mom, it's this brand I'm trying to fit in. And so I started sewing my own clothes that mimicked what I couldn't, what my mother didn't think, and we couldn't afford. So I started sewing clothes. And because my mom said, no, we won't buy you a prom dress, I sewed my own prom dress. And then I designed two prom dresses for other girls in my class because they wanted to have something unique. So that's where I thought I would become a fashion designer because I was having a lot of fun. So very resourceful. Like, if I learn a skill, I mean, I dive in and I figure it out and I love it. So painting came because, you know, when I was with kids, we couldn't just keep a sewing machine around. And I don't know, I think painting and art and drawing was an easier, simpler setup. But as the kids got older and left the house, you can see, like, paintings have become, you know, four foot bikes, five foot paintings. And a lot of them started to. Now, having raised two daughters, I started seeing the intersection between who I was as a kid, who I am now, who I am as a mother, who I am as a wife, who I am as a just a woman. And so many feelings were starting to come out that this. This woman's face is not done. But I try to really capture things in postures that women keep that emote, a quiet confidence, which is one of the things that I've very much loved about certain very strong Indian women I've met. Like, even though they have been bound by cultural norms, like how they show their strength, it's not always through their words, because sometimes that's not available to them in their family or in. Even in their mindset. They couldn't even imagine saying certain things, but just interesting little looks that I can see a woman may give, which is like, he's making fun of me right now, but I know what's going on. He can do what he needs to do to make himself feel better. But I can see her face. Like she's not even affected by what people may be saying. And I just found that so cool that these women didn't have to verbally fight for their place because that's the way I was trained to be. Like, not trained by my mother, trained by American society. Speak up. Fight for your rights. That's what I would do. Which is very different. Than what my mother taught me.

It's an interesting merging of many different, I would say ancestral and even generational lineages. Right. And how they all come together and how they all change over time. I wanted to ask you, since creativity has been threaded through your life and, you know, sometimes out of need or being, like you said, very resourceful, how much do you see creativity as a vector for healing? Like, let me just ask you kind of a pointed question on that. So do you feel that. And I'm asking about your feeling on this. Do you feel that sometimes people have conditions or illnesses because there's a lack of that expression that they could make manifest through some kind of creative art? Do you feel like you've seen that with patients?

Oh, I've seen that with many patients. I've seen that with myself. I absolutely agree that these energies that are within us, that are potentially not at rest, I'll say they're not at peace. Certain energies that are not at peace within us need expression. And people have various gifts and skills for expression. Some might be written, some might be movement, some might be, you know, like tactile, kinesthetic. But I do feel those energies have to come out in some way. And in the philosophy that I ascribe to, which is Vedanta, it's the philosophy that underpins many Eastern Asian religions, formal.

Religions.

It'S kind of connecting to this higher power and trying to find relief of that unrest energetically. And yoga, which has many meanings to this society, but in the ancient society, there's four different types of yoga. And whether it be through the mind, whether it be through the heart, whether it be through the body, whether it be through service, I think there is something that needs to be released. And creativity for me has absolutely been a healer in ways that a person cannot do for me.

Yeah, it's almost like it has its own language. And it's sometimes like you were saying before, it's not even verbalized, it's felt. It's expressed in whether it's the wink of an eye or the thinking about something. Well, now that you've touched on yoga, I feel a little bit curious about the Vedanta path that you're on. Maybe you can also create a parallel track for us in terms of your spiritual upbringing. Did that parallel East Indian ways of thinking and traditional ways of. I would say, whether through the philosophies or was it. Were you raised Hindu or what? What were your beliefs growing up? What did your parents impart? And then did that change at all as you Became an adult.

Well, my mother's extended family was a very strong influence in my upbringing and they belong to a certain subsect of Hinduism that has quite a bit of discipline and what would be called Bhakti Yoga. Very devotional, very heart centered. And so when I was young I was very, very curious, why do we do this? Why do we do that? Why have to do this? Everything was why, why, why, why, why? In fact, my mother would limit certain questions to 10 at any given moment. And if I ask more questions, she would say, here, draw this person. Like just keep your mind busy by drawing this person. She would can me some photograph or something and have me start drawing because my mind always wanted to know why. So I wasn't very good with bhakti yog because from a heart centeredness I needed to understand the, the intellectual reason for why I had to do this. You know, prayer with this light and you know, why is there an elephant headed God? Tell me, how could that even be? I needed to understand. And my mom, having grown up in Africa, she didn't have all the answers because in her generation she didn't get to ask why. It was just, this is what we do. And she had somehow maybe had the heart centered ability to just adopt what her mother and father taught her. But I just wasn't that child. And so there was a time when I was a teenager that I, like many people who are minorities of a different religion, different color, they push back against their minority roots because they don't want to be that because it makes them different from the majority culture. So I was like, this is crazy, this Hinduism. And you know, I pushed back. And then I went to university where I met a lot of other Indian people. And I'm like, oh, your mother told you this too? And, and then they started giving me some of the whys that they might have learned and whys that I was learning. And that's where I started having a better appreciation. How weird it is that, you know, I'm not going to listen to my parents at that age. It will take another peer to give me insights into something I would be curious about again. And then when I had my children, I recognized that there were things in my upbringing that created a lot of stability in me that I never gave credit to that philosophy. For example, in, in religious ancient culture, you would never ever step on a book, you would never step on a musical instrument, you would never put your foot on anything that you respect. And when I would go to other people's houses that were Not Hindu. There would be books, newspapers strewn on the floor. People would step right over them and it would be the equivalent for me of someone like smacking my mother in the face. Like, that's how disrespectful I was taught that it was to step on a book. And what that taught me. And you ask any person who's raised with this type of cultural, which is off of religious value, you become very deeply appreciative of education, of music and the arts. Because from a young age you were taught like you would never ever step on something that you respect. Like that. These are things that when I started having children, I thought, I want to repeat a lot of what my mother and father had taught me. However, it was important to me that my kids got the why and I was still searching for the why. So I joined a group. And I didn't even join it. It was interesting. I was looking for a group and I lived in a small rural town in Florida. And I had heard about this group from a friend in San Francisco. And she goes, check it out. Maybe there's one close to you. And I was thinking, I'll probably have to drive like 30 to 45 minutes to reach the closest one in Tampa. Can you believe it was eight minutes down the road from where I lived? And it was called Chinmaya Mission. And it in English translated many of the Vedas. And they had what was called a bal vihar, which is kind of the equivalent of Sunday school for Hindu children. So simultaneously, my children got educated in Vedanta and it was highly recommended that the parents attend adult study group. So for 10 plus years our family went there every Sunday and I started learning the whys behind so many of the traditions and rituals.

And.

And I then came to appreciate that this wasn't just silly little things that we did to get sons in the family. Or like little things that I would overhear why we do these things. I started really appreciating it for the true ancient wisdom behind these things. Like, why would you worship? Why would you have a morning meditation worship ritual? I used to think that was silly. Just I felt like it was like you're preying upon God to request things P R E Y I N G. And it's like, well, that doesn't seem fair. Like you only go to talk to God when you want something. And once I understood the wisdom behind prayer and meditation, it didn't occur to me like that anymore.

So interesting.

Wow.

And are you still practicing today? Is this something that your family. So you're you're still very much connected to the Vedanta path and these teachings.

Absolutely. It's changed quite a bit, obviously, since my children have outgrown. They're not in the house anymore, so we don't. And we've moved further away. But interestingly, I always feel like things happen, happen exactly as they should, according to my Vedantic belief system. And one of my cousins was widowed at age 35, and this was one of my maternal cousins. So she grew up in the same kind of cultural mindset that I did. And I remember reaching out to her and saying, hey, this book, which was kind of the foundational book in Chinmai Mission, I said, this helped me understand a lot of the things that I didn't think were fair in the world and how to view them. And at that point, she wasn't ready, obviously. But a few years later, I asked her, you know, I offered it to you, and I feel still a need to make sure that you had the choice to want. I said, do you want to do a book club? Do you want me to go over this with you, or do you want to do a book club? And at that moment, she's like, yes, let's do a book club. And so she gathered four friends, I gathered four friends, and we did this online book club for this Vedantic book called Self Unfoldment. And that book club started almost five years ago. It made it through Covid. It's a global thing now with 25 people from all around the world. And we meet every Sunday and we read. We read either about Vedanta, Taoism, Buddhism, we. We read Brene Brown, Atlas of the Heart. Like, so I don't do it in the, the traditional go to the temple, go to the ashram. But I feel like with this very unique group of people who are Christians, Hindus, atheists, all these people, we come together every Sunday and we discuss how to find happiness, and we translate these texts and go through these books. And then we start doing actions like we're all deciding to meditate different ways, and then we're going to move into selfless service. So I think that there's interesting ways that we can continue our relationship with the divine or with the sacred. Whatever you, whatever one believes. I think it's an ongoing conversation that's going to morph over time.

Yeah. And I really like how your journey with all of this has morphed over time too. You know, starting with being a teenager and having that kind of where a prophet is never seen in their Homeland, Right. So your parents aren't going to be the ones to tell you. So you, you need to go out on your own and have that own journey. And then looking at how you have created this group of multi belief systems all coming together into a unified truth and finding a way to make it practical. One of the things I really enjoy about listening to how you approached your daughters is having the mind and the heart together. So having this belief system but then also having the why, the rationale. And so that's really a beautiful way to do that. Well, that I had no idea. That's quite the path. I do want to ask you about two things because I'm curious about the Vedantic path, which I may not know as much about. I have some general ideas around Hinduism and such, but what is your take on astrology? You know, when I think of traditional Indian parents and I think of, you know, kind of like how you talked about setting the stage for their children, making sure that things have lined up. I mean astrology, if I look at Indian culture is such, such a big piece of the bedrock of families. Like, do you feel like there's anything there to be said about the science or the spirituality of something like astrology?

Very good question. I think astrology in mainland India is probably more part of the cultural norms. Like if you, if a person's getting married to two people want to get married, they will, you know, go to a pundit or a priest and ask or an astrologer to ask, what is the right time? Is this a good match in the us I don't think people of my generation have picked up on that because it's not something like, oh, go find your local astrologer and go ask. It's not like you can go pick up a, you know, like, it's not like a fishmonger. They're sometimes hard to come by but they exist. So I don't think astrology is accepted as often in my generation as it is in my parents generation. Now having said that, I think that because there's a group of people in my generation that want to go back to their roots and are curious. And then there's a group in my generation that are like, eh, let's leave that behind. Let's just start figuring out how we're going to live in America and adopt the majority culture more and more. And I don't think if one's right or wrong, it's just, it's a different path. So for me I've chosen to be curious about My roots, and specifically the ancient underpinnings of my roots, not just the cultural current norms. I really want to understand the ancient underpinnings. So as I learn about Vedanta, I recognize there's a lot to be said about quantum and Newtonian physics, and there's a lot to be said about things beyond our understanding with physical matter and more related to energy, and not just energy in this dimension that we understand physical, but like celestial energy as well. What's interesting is that in Ayurveda, which is quite closely attached to Vedanta, when we are born, based on the alignment of the stars, the planets, that energetic force plays a big role in our constitution and if you will, our set point, our doshik set point. And then as we live life, we kind of come off of our doshik set point. And that is all related to energy. So even though I don't completely understand astrology, I do think there must be some truth to it. And my attitude towards a lot of things that I don't know if I'll get to understand right away is pure curiosity and acceptance of it as something as long as it's positive and happy. So. So, for example, there are things related to the lunar calendar. One of my friends was like, oh, I'm going to make ghee. And if you put ghee out when it's a full moon, it'll do something to the ghee. Okay, listen, if I happen to be making my ghee and there's a full moon, maybe I'll put it out on the ledge. Kind of like how I do some crystals. Do I know it works? No, I don't know. Have I researched it heavily? No, but I think it's kind of fun. I'm like, hey, just in case this is true, you know, I kind of look at it as like childlike curiosity right now versus, like, scientific research. And I. I'm enjoying not having to figure it out, honestly, Deanna, because my world for the first 50 years was like, figure out the right answer. Figure out the right answer. And I don't know if I need to know as many things these days. I think certain things will fall into my path. And if astrology falls in and it starts to make more sense to me and clarity to me, then great, maybe I'll know it. I'll quote, unquote, figure it out for myself. But right now, I'm having fun just being open to whatever falls in my path. And I am. I do think. I don't let things like astrology determine my path. So I'm not going to read a horoscope and then become negative. But I, but you know, if a horoscope happens to fall into my lap, I'll think it's cute what, what's happening for Geminis and I'll, I'll, I'll try to spin it to be something positive for what I'm looking forward to in life. So manifestation is more what I'm into these days.

Yeah. And so many of those, I would say ancient rituals or traditions, they are so connected to our intentions because like you said, there are ways to interpret that. It could be more on the shadow side or more on the light side. What about reincarnation? That's such a stick staple spiritual concept within Indian culture and spirituality. What's your personal take on reincarnation? Do you feel like, I don't know if you've ever listened to near death experiences relayed by patients and kind of looking at what people relay from those NDEs and kind of looking at the science of it, the quantum aspects of it, and even just the belief system. Where do you stack up in all of that? Is that something that you think about?

Oh, yes, I have a belief in reincarnation. So it's more Hindu than it is Indian. So it's just that many Indians are Hindu, but it's specifically Hindu. And in Hinduism, the, the principle of reincarnation is related to the law of karma, otherwise called karma. But karma is the law of cause and effect. And although we understand the obvious connection between cause and effect in this lifetime, the principle of reincarnation says that there are effects in this lifetime that are a byproduct of causes in previous lifetimes. And there are books and many things that I have seen that support that we must have had some previous existence to explain knowledge that certain humans have in this life. I think the book is called Many Masters, Many Minds and it's Many Lives, Many Masters. Many Lives, Many Masters. Thank you.

Brian Weiss. Is that the one you're.

Yes, yes. The psychiatrist down in Miami area who talks about his patient interactions when he's doing these regressive, these, these interventions. And I have a belief in it. Just because culturally I grew up with this understanding. I also have a belief in it because there's just some things I cannot explain outside of something like the love, karma, reincarnation. Like certain people who were born with such ridiculous talent at a young age, I assume it's been imprinted from previous lifetimes and the imprint of that on their energetic soul is so strong that it still has yet to continue to manifest and express in the next lifetime. So, you know, I believe in it. I don't have a need to have to convince others to believe in anything that I do. But I'd like to think that things that I'm doing now are the causes for my future life in this lifetime. And I also have a belief that I'd like to create the setup for me to exit this Samsara, which is the cycle of life and death. And that's, you know, the ultimate goal. So as much as I believe in reincarnation, I'd love to be able to get out of that cycle in the long term.

Yeah, yeah. What is that called? Moksha.

Moksha, yeah. Moksha means salvation. Yeah, kind of. Yeah, that's right. Salvation. Or it's, it's, it's because you finally get it. You, you leaves the idea of you ego identity as an individual, your shell completely broken and gone. And that which is divine in you merges with that which is divine everywhere. And there is no you, there is no shilpa, there isn't who I would be in the next lifetime. And this moksha is just the, it's kind of like the rehoming of you back to your original creator. Even though the creator isn't an individual in this, it can't even be defined as a person because that would be limiting to existence.

Yes, well, and I was just going to ask you that question. What is your belief in a creator? A source? Some people refer to that as the universe. So based on what you just said, it sounds like, you know, there is this return to that energy or that vibration or however we are defining it, however you are defining it, that the goal would be to come back into that alignment. But you tell me what, what is your take on the idea of a creator or a universal consciousness?

I, I agree with that principle. In Vedanta, we create a name for that principle because to be able to refer to it, but naming it also limits it. But atman a t m a n is kind of the word that's used in Vedanta to, to put a name on this, that some people call God, the universe, energy, consciousness. And I believe that that existence principle, that consciousness principle is what is in all of us. But because it is beyond the human intellect to understand, it must come to us in little fragments that we can then understand. So one of the biggest misconceptions people have about Hinduism is that we are polytheistic, that we believe in many gods and goddesses, but Vedanta, the root of Hinduism, says that these avatars or avatars, these avatars of existence principle come down in ways to be able to teach humans the principles or the different attributes of, of this existence consciousness in digestible bites. And so one might come down as a goddess, one might come down as a God. And they embody certain virtues similar to maybe the way a saint is in other religions. And so when I was growing up, there was a picture of Jesus Christ where we prayed because Jesus Christ is just as an, as much as an embodiment of the existence consciousness. Sat chit ananda. As much as like Lord Ganesh might be for a Hindu, I never had it that there's only one. But I do understand the way that, you know, growing up in the south, it was a stark reality for me to be told by some of my friends that I would be going to hell, for example, because I did not believe in only Jesus Christ. Now what's interesting is I actually believe in Jesus Christ, but because I was taught not only Jesus Christ, I would go to hell. And the way that I really explored that, because I was actually hurt by that, is, you know, I believe this existence comes down in different forms for different types of minds, different types of communities. So I think Jesus came down for a large group of people as the language or embodiment for those people to understand their path back up to existence, God consciousness. But you know, Allah came for a different group of people and so on and so forth. And so what I love about Vedanta is it is very much about tolerance and pluralism because there doesn't need. The one is already there. It's just that that one is so infinite and attributeless that just cannot whittle it down to one form is what I believe. And that keeps, I think that's what keeps me humble. When somebody tells me something, even though it doesn't fall into something I know, I don't, I don't ever say, then it cannot be possible. And you know what's interesting is that cultural upbringing and training in me help me become a great functional medicine thinker. I think, because there would be things when I was starting to learn, you know, it was interesting. Like I'm an Indian at home. And then when I would come into society, I would turn into this American scientist and I would almost turn Western in the office place and kind of like my medical school training would kind of start to infiltrate here. And I would think like an American scientist, a Western scientist. And I remember early in my functional medicine training A patient came in and was taking supplements and was putting it up to their heart and then kind of looking like they were leaning forward or leaning back. And I was like, what are you doing? She's like, I'm trying to see if this supplement is good for me. And I said, I don't understand. What are you doing though? She's like, oh, if I fall forward it means something, but if I fall backwards it means something else. And I remember looking at her with my Western, western medical mind going like she's nuts, thinking, how could you put this to your chest? And all of a sudden you're going to tell me, you know, this supplement is good for you or not. What a Western way to look at it. And it took me a while. The deeper I got into functional medicine, the more I understood that I don't understand a lot and that there are so many different languages of healing, just like there's so many different languages of God or existence. And do not be so short sighted. To say that applied kinesiology is what she was doing is wrong. It was just a different language. And I have been since so open to so many different ways of healing, understanding that there's likely not just one route. I just happen to be the allopathic, conventional medical route by training. But when people tell me what they are understanding could be healing them, I am all ears. Because who's to say that's not another route? Are you muted?

Yes, sorry. There we go. Yeah, I just had a goosebump moment from you relaying that. It's so beautiful how a physician as a teacher also being taught by their patients. Right. And being open to that and you being so open and receptive and humble and really finding yourself in that place of service. So whatever helps to serve that patient best. Do you ever feel like, you know, when you look at the functional medicine matrix, we see mental, emotional, spiritual in kind of that middle of the matrix, the heart of the matrix, the nucleus. Do you feel that most practitioners have the, the bandwidth to give that time and attention to what we would call spiritual? You know, just very high level on that. But then I guess how do you then bring that spiritual component into your everyday and then also into the therapeutic encounter? So it's kind of like a three part question, like, is there room for that in the everyday experience with a physician and a patient? How do you do it yourself and then actually how do you bring it then into the clinic?

I absolutely think there's room for it. I think that I bring it in to my interactions with a high degree of respect and curiosity. So for example, when I meet a new patient, I ask a lot of permission on many things in the beginning because I know that I'm asking to have access to some of their deepest physical and energetic stories and wounds. And by asking permission, I feel like the patient starts to understand that they are a very important necessary being and their story is important because I think a lot of times patients are not meant to felt that feel that way. They're meant to be. They feel like they're the physical specimen entering into the doctor patient relationship. So I, I make it a very respectful journey into asking questions. When I'm doing the timeline, I think it's super important this part of go to it where we retell the story back. I think it's, that's when I layer in some part of the energetic components of what could be playing a role. And if I sense I have a question that I'll sometimes ask if I feel as though the space is opened, like, do you have a belief in something bigger than yourself that plays a role in what's happening in your life? And you know, people will sometimes understand that right away and say, yeah, God. And you know, tell me what that is or nature or whatever they say. And then I use that language in the end to say, listen, I think we have multiple paths that we can use to support the type of healing you're looking for. There's definitely your physical body. There's also that part of you that's your thinking body and, and your feeling body. And maybe there's something deep that is that if I can call it spiritual body. And I want to make sure that we honor all of those versions of you. And I'd love for you to guide me on which one is most important to you at any visit that we have. And it's really interesting, like once I give that context, people who have a very faith based or spirituality based view of healing, they love knowing that we, we can include that in the conversation at any time. And I have many faith based patients that when things are going not according to plan, they are so happy that I can be with them when they say, you know, I'm just going to surrender this one up to Jesus, or I'm going to surrender this up to God, or I have faith in God and, and I go, great, I think that's wonderful, what a strength you have. And can we. Do you still want to check labs again? And you know, it's like both of those things can exist. She's like, yeah, let's just still check my ANA in three months. But I have faith that God has me in this and okay, and why can't they both coexist? Why can't we take care of physical while we still honor that the spiritual energetic is happening at the same time? I think patients are ridiculously smart and wise and we don't give them enough, say, gosh, they live in their bodies all the time, they live with their energies all the time. Who are we to come in there and tell them we know better and who are we to tell them that our way is the right way? They are on their own path. It's taken me a while, although I feel much more confident in my last 10 years and probably correlates to me raising teenage girls, you know, okay, listen, this isn't the way I would have picked, but as long as it's relatively safe and you're getting power in the process, let's hear your way. And then I just support their way.

That's so beautiful. Your patients are so fortunate to have you in that way because I don't feel like all practitioners have that open thinking and open door in the way of conversation around other bodies and other aspects of the person. What about you in terms of your personal ritual? Like, do you prepare differently every day? Do you have a certain set practice for yourself before you're going into the clinic so that you're ready to, to kind of hold space? And as Dr. Jeff Bland would say, you know, there's that sacredness that happens that you've already alluded to. So just kind of in our closing minutes here, I'm just kind of curious about your daily ritual and if there's something that you do to prepare yourself for those conversations.

Well, I'm very lucky that I live near the water. So every morning I wake up and I walk with my dog Yogi, which means yoked to unconditional love. He's a daily reminder to me. We go on a two mile walk and I get to be with myself for that time period, which is important. I, I need time for me before I go and start giving of me to patients. And what I find is, is I keep channeling the little girl that used to be prior to all the conditioning of her external, the girl who asked so many questions that was just so curious and riveted and joyful about what's going on and you know, like the girl who couldn't stop asking questions, I love to channel her. And just because like when a child asks you a question Their curiosity is so pure, you know, like, it's. Even when they ask questions that could sound mean, you just know it's not. It's coming from a such a pure place. So I love to channel that little girl who really is curious and. And loves people. Like, I adored getting to know people. And I think that's what shows up in every examination conversation. And I think when people feel seen and they feel heard and they feel safe, their own healing ability shows up. It's not about me healing them, in my opinion. I feel like the biggest thing that I can do is create a safe space for them to find their wisdom around their path. And sure, I can say take this supplement and do this, but I think that goes so much quicker when people feel seen, heard, and safe. And a big part of that is just, I think having them know they are so cool and they're so amazing and what amazing survivors they are. As they're telling you their life and you're like, wow, you survived that. And look at you sharing. I feel like people need to be acknowledged for what they've created and achieved. And I think in that, people find their power again.

Yeah, wonderfully said. And so often it's about the listening. It's the holding of the space that allows that to come out. It's back to, in some ways, creativity, which is that incubator of allowing one's authentic expression.

Shilpa, that's the feminine divine.

Yeah.

The listening that creates the safety. And the space, I think is my. Is the feminine divine that I have now found. Whereas my masculine energy early on, Dana was all about like, let me figure you out and let me figure out the solution and let's look at the evidence. And it was just. And there's nothing wrong with that, but it's just the way I was conditioned to think that's where the answers were. And my. My path has said that, you know what? Your feminine divine creates the space for others to find their solution. You don't have to do it for them. Yeah.

Yes. There are many maths, many paths up the mountain of healing, and they involve troubleshooting, but then also listening and friendship and trust and all the things that you mention.

Yeah.

I have so many more questions for you, but I do want to respect your time. You know, I'm kind of curious about shilpa from here on out. You know, you're. I believe you said in your 50s. Right. Okay. So thinking about, like this next half of your life just from a kind of where you are now, any kind of comments about where you see yourself kind of moving into, or are you just residing in the present moment and showing up for whatever comes your way? Do you have anything in terms of kind of looking forward for yourself? Like, I'm not sure where you, if you're a planner or if you're a present momenter, so I'm just leaving that open to you for any final words about Shilpa going forward?

Probably both. I don't know if I could ever just be completely in the present because I'm an evolving being. I don't think I've gotten to that enlightened state where I can be present all the time. Admittedly, I think that my planning skills were are part of my gifts and I should leverage them because I feel like the Divine has given that to me to see if it could be of value to people what I hope to do as I move forward in my career. And then also, just as a person is number one, continue to give back for all the teachings that I've received. So what does that look like? I feel like functional medicine and medicine and being immigrant's daughter has been a really unique journey for me and so many lessons that I've learned. And then I get to. I get to share it. And what's funny is, Deanna, you know, people have Instagram handles and all this kind of stuff. And in a weird way, because I'm such an ancient at heart, I don't do a ton of social media. But I decided that what I'm going to start is an Instagram channel. Because you're like, what's your Instagram handle? I'm like, ah, I don't have one. And I thought, well, you know what? This might be the universe telling me that maybe I can start sharing some of the lessons of my teachers. Because one of the things that I really love from an immigrant perspective is practical lessons, practical solutions, not perfectionist practical. So you have inspired me to start a little Shilpa lesson. Not Dr. Saxena, but Shilpa Instagram channel. Now listen, that means I've got to learn how to post and all that. So I'm taking that on like a kid, like learning how to write the Alphabet and learning how to navigate social as a platform for just sharing, like I said, the lessons of my teachers. I want to have fun with it. And then who knows where that'll go. If it goes somewhere, great. If it doesn't, great. I still think it's a form of expression. And then I'm open to what is called upon me to do next for service, because I feel like the phase of my life. In Vedanta, you have four phases of life. The first 25 years is the student phase. The second 25 is what's called the householder phase, where it's your responsibility to earn and take care of the other different phases of life. Then the third 25 years is kind of like the retiring start passing the baton off to the householder phase. The fourth 25 years is what's called the Sannyasi phase, which is where you literally give up everything. You're meant to have gone into the forest to have your final, you know, years going back to your origins. What's interesting is, so I'm in that third 25 years. It's not my job to be the earner as the priority. It's to give back and to help the earners, if you will, the ones who keep society going from a functional aspect. And I thought, well, maybe that's what I meant to do from a Vedic perspective.

I like that. I like that breakout a lot. Well, whenever I think of you, I always think Shilpa, the S of Shilpa is like the S of service. Like even our conversations many years ago, you were always coming from that place. So now it sounds like per your age, where you're at in your life, it's even more amplified, which is really beautiful to see that progression. So, Shilpa, on that note, do you have your Instagram handle available for everybody in case, you know, I know you may not be ready with it yet, but do you have a handle reserved so that we can look at it at some point?

Yes, it is Shilpa, which is S H I L P A.

Excellent. And then do you want to share your website or any other information for people who would want to maybe connect with you on a variety of different levels, whether as a patient or just for opportunities. Anything that you'd like to connect with people on?

Yeah, I think the national company that I work for and you can find me on is forum health.com there's opportunities for providers to join the network for patients or people who are curious to come in and become a patient, or we have a lot of educational webinar podcast series for people who, you know, maybe don't have the ability to be a patient right now or don't need to be a patient right now. So formhealth.com and then what I'll probably do is DNF it's okay again, you can see I'm an ancient. I don't have those memorized outside of that website. So I will pass more on in case there's an opportunity for you to tag that in.

Yeah, I'll put them in the show notes, so whatever you'd like to include. I'll put them in there on YouTube so that people can look at them and find you. They can always Google you, I'm sure. Thank you so much for this delightful conversation. It's been great getting to know you another level deeper and having more of a connection to who you are as a person in the way of your connection to your youth, your upbringing, your path through medicine, and even the underbelly of your spiritual beliefs, which are quite profound. So thank you so much for sharing in this with me.

Thank you, Deanna. And I really appreciate you being brave to open this part of the story up for people because again, if somebody doesn't bring it up, it doesn't get shared, it doesn't get told. So thank you for your work in allowing this conversation to happen with so many people.

Thank you so much.