Science & Spirituality Talks with Todd Nelson, DSc, ND

Hello, everyone. Welcome to another session of science and spirituality talks. Our guest today is Dr. Todd Nelson. Dr. Nelson holds Naturopathic Doctor and Doctor of science and holistic health degrees. He holds many advanced certificates in clinical nutrition, functional medicine, first line therapy, and Rayyad Personality assessment, which we're going to talk about. He has been serving individuals, families and groups for over 43 years. And he's quite unique in how he integrates functional medicine, testing, clinical nutrition, supplements, detoxification. He and I are definitely brother and sister of detox. He also brings in fitness and herbal medicine, lifestyle counseling, stress mastery, and life coaching. So he's nationally known. He's got a practice in Colorado. He does his work online. So I invited him to this. To this particular platform because he and I have known each other, we go way back. Right, Todd?

Yeah. Yeah, you really do. You know, I think I first met you when you came to Colorado to teach. It was a conference in Denver. I can't remember the name of it, but that was probably a good, I don't know, 15 years ago, something like that.

You know what? I think I actually remember that. I bet it was the 2010. It was the nutrition conference for IFM. We had a whole big thing on nutrition there in Denver. I remember that. Wow. That could have been it. Wow. Well, and we're Facebook friends, so we see each other on a regular basis. So when I. I saw your name come through and, you know, I'm usually thinking, like, who can I interview? Who would be interesting? Because even though we know each other, I don't feel like we know each other.

Yeah.

So this gives me the opportunity to do that. So why don't we kick off with talking about. I mean, you do a lot of different things. You're like this whirling dervish of so many different modalities that you've really blended together in a very beautiful way. Let's go. Even before you got into any of these modalities to talk about, how did you decide to get into health, healing and medicine?

I knew you were going to ask me that. And, you know, trying to keep sort of a long story short, you know, I really feel, Deanna, that the profession found me, you know, I wasn't consciously looking for it. And, you know, through a series of experiences with my own health, you know, some. Some of my own health challenges and being introduced to a little bit of natural healing. Even in high school, you know, my. My best buddy worked at a natural grocer, the very first one in Cherry Creek here in Denver, Vitamin Cottage and Margaret Isley, who started that whole chain. So he and I would sit and talk to Margaret about herbs and so forth, because we were studying martial arts and we were trying to get better performance, better endurance, better healing. And we would talk to her. You know, those are the days you walk into a health food store and you just get overwhelmed by the smell of bulk herbs, you know, and we would sit and chat with her. So that was kind of my first introduction to natural healing. And then sort of through a synchronistic series of experiences, I. You know, I still didn't know. Like, in high school, I was getting very philosophical and reading Oriental philosophy and all this stuff. And the only thing I knew was that I wanted to help people somehow, and I didn't know what that looked like, right? So in the meantime, I was getting into oriental philosophy and martial arts and so forth. And then I went to Colorado Mountain College here in Colorado for my first year of college. And I had just read this book called the Wisdom of Kung Fu. And it was all about the really traditional Shaolin monk training, right? And here I was, 18 years old going, I want to be a Shaolin monk. That's what I want to do.

You.

Know, because being a Shaolin monk was about developing yourself to your all, all, all of yourself to the best of your ability, you know, physically, spiritually, mentally, emotionally, and developing character, right? And so that was. That really got my attention somehow. And right when I finished that book, it was a little college. And they would communicate with, like, bulletin boards, right? And there was a little 3x5 that said, anybody interested in learning kung fu, call me. And I called this guy Ken. And it was sort of like what I was looking for, it was a very integrated Chinese Tibetan gung fu, right? And so I started studying with him. And then I came to find that the master of these systems was a guy named Robert Cooper who was putting together this naturopathic school. And so I first met him as a martial arts master, and then I. He talked about the school he was putting together and so forth. And I heard him talk about this when I was probably 18 or 19, and something broke loose in me, and I just went up to him and I said, I want to do that for the rest of my life. Just like that. And he's like, okay, you know, and he became a good mentor and teacher. And so that sort of started that whole process. And it wasn't so much about. For me, the compelling motivation wasn't so much about science per se, because in those days, naturopathic Medicine didn't have much science. It really didn't. It was mostly empirical. It was mostly like, okay, these herbs have been used for thousands of years. Kind of basically know what they do, you know, and we know that fasting heals, you know, we know that detoxification heals, we know that rest heals, we know that, you know, lessening stress heals, we know that exercise heals. Just this very common sense kind of approach to health and well being. Right. So I was all in and I just dove in and simultaneously it was almost like I was kind of doing these two tracks at that point, like between 17 and 19, my whole life just completely transformed into this path that I couldn't have pre imagined. You know, it really like I didn't sit down and go, oh, you know what I want to do in my life is become a naturopath. Yeah, I didn't even know that term was, you know. And simultaneously in that college, there was a guy teaching Eastern Thought, that was the name of the class. And I had been reading Oriental philosophy and some Zen and Taoism and that kind of thing. And a lot of that was introduced to me through Bruce Lee, who was like a teenage idol, you know, martial arts guy. And I bought his book, the Dao of Jeet Kune Do. And the beginning of it was a lot of Zen and Taoism. And it just somehow resonated with me. And then I took this Eastern thought class and it turns out the teacher was a transcendental meditation teacher and he had studied with the Maharishi. And he pulled me aside one day and he said, you know, I do this and I'm going to teach you this. So I went to his house and he taught me and it gave me a mantra. And I started doing meditation twice a day. And that was my introduction to meditation. And it just was this sort of serendipitous synchronistic unfolding that I could not have planned. And yet it felt like it was meant to be. And that was sort of a calling or something. And I just never questioned it. I just sort of dove into the river and went with it.

Isn't that interesting how things show up like they do in that divine synchronicity almost? You know, two things come to mind. One is perfect place, perfect time. So many things are about timing, being at that right place in Colorado where so many things were birthing. You know, Colorado just is in general is just known to be one of those healthier states. People are into their health and well being. And I'm sure 43 years ago. They were also kind of on the, the leading edge there. So, you know, here you are in the swirl of all of that. Right. And being in that environment which then primed whatever's coming your way. The other thing that I want to ask you, since you're so drawn to, I would say Asian philosophy, is how come, or had you ever thought about acupuncture? What about traditional Chinese medicine based on your philosophical bent?

Yeah, I explored that and started getting treatment and I met some really interesting traditional Chinese medicine practitioners and so forth, and, and I loved it. But for some reason it wasn't. I couldn't envision myself doing that, you know, And I also. To back up a little bit, while I was still in high school, this old chiropractor was making house calls and working on my mom. And he had never had a physical office. He had only done house calls. And he and I would sit and talk and I had had chronic digestive problems and constipation. And so he was the first one planted some seeds about, oh, what I eat has something to do with my gut. You know, I was about 17 when that was going on. Right. And he was like, you know, maybe you should go to chiropractic school and, you know, maybe you should consider that. And I started looking into that and then I, I just couldn't see myself working on bats all day long. You know, I'm more of a relater. I like to talk and listen and, you know, rather than doing hands on stuff. And so there was all these little seeds planted like you said, and even, even earlier in Colorado, you know, my dad was a full blooded Norwegian and skiing was like his religion.

So it was in your genes.

Yeah. You know, we were camping and fishing and skiing and hiking and really indoctrinated that love of nature, you know, and you're right, Deanna. I mean, Colorado, I think still is the least obese state in the union because people are definitely more health oriented here. And I live in Boulder county, which, you know, they're running joking even more. Yeah, right. Is. It's the center of the known universe as far as consciousness development and, you know, holistic healing. And everybody and their brother is some kind of healer down, you know, in Boulder. So. So it was right time, it was right sort of cultural connections and it was just this. I look back at it often and I just feel like it was this magical synchronistic place that I just happened to show up for.

Well, and you were very receptive. I mean, so many people can get signals and then they let them pass by without awareness. However, you are really in tune. And I do think that out of everybody I've interviewed, it seems like everybody always has a personal health issue or somebody in their family had a personal health issue that got them to pay attention. So for you, it was your digestive system? System.

It was my gut, yeah, yeah. It was also I was having neuromuscular symptoms at that time too. And I had started doing some body work and I becoming a body worker and, you know, I was having a lot of trigger point phenomenon and so forth, and I kind of like fibromyalgia type symptoms. And I have Ehlers Danlos syndrome, which is a connective table tissue disorder that is genetic. And I didn't know that for a long time. And I was always. I was a very unusual kid. You know, I was very sensitive and sort of physically weaker than most boys. And I couldn't ever understand that until later, until I got a diagnosis of Ehlers Danlos syndrome. And I'm like, oh. And the way I did that, Deanna, I was a quick asiders. I had a patient come in with it. I never heard of it, you know, and now lots of people have heard of it and it's becoming much more, you know.

Yeah.

But at the time is very rare and very. Most of my practitioners had never even heard of it. And I'd gone through about five rheumatologist before somebody said, oh, you have Ehlers Danlos syndrome. That's what you got. But what prompted me to even seek it was a patient who came in and they're describing their symptoms. And I'm going, oh, my God, that's me. And I've never met another human being to this point that has a set of symptoms. So anyway, I don't know where I was going with that, but I think because I was, you know, born with some genetic uniqueness, that it also prompted me, I think, subconsciously at first, you know, to seek ways of how do I function as well as I can, given my limitations, you know.

Yeah, so, yeah, that makes sense.

So that was a driving force. So, you know, between my gut and neuromuscular pain, you know, those were kind of entry points, I would say, to being open to what I needed.

So, well, with the neuromuscular pain, then I'm surprised that you ventured into martial arts.

Yeah. At the time, you know, when I was younger, I could do it and I was sort of hyper flexible and I have really long limbs and. Which was to my advantage in this particular style, and it was called the charging weight crane style. And my body was, you know, perfect for that. So. But, you know, eventually I couldn't do it, and I. And I couldn't ski anymore, and I, you know, now I'm disabled. And so I bring that into the picture because that was a driving force for me, is. Was my own health, you know, and what can I do for me, you know.

I really love how you then ventured from martial arts into naturopathic medicine as it was being birthed. What would you say you got into thereafter? Like, it. Start it. It sounds like there's a certain snowball going, getting larger and larger here of different interests, you know, and if I. When I read your bio, I mean, all these different things. So did you feel like it was like a sequential, just one thing after another that you started exploring or maybe you had patience that you were looking for answers for, which got. Which led you and got you to explore these things?

Yeah, I would say it was both, and I was both. You know, as soon as I was in naturopathic school, I started meeting amazing human beings, you know, teachers and guest teachers and lecturers and so forth, who, you know, just were showing me different possibilities and realities that I'd ever heard of or ever imagined. You know, talking about homeopathic medicine, for example, or even, you know, ways of using herbal medicines and different meditations and visualization. And the whole mind body thing was really starting to anchor in the late 70s, you know, and even to the point where, you know, some people were claiming that they could overcome cancer or, you know, that there was just so many different things. And, you know, one of the, you know, one of my mentors and teachers was Dr. Bernard Jensen, who was a very famous old naturopath, and he was on staff at our school. And, you know, And I mean, Dr. Jensen had already been doing it for 30, 40 years and was a master of detoxification for his time, you know.

Yeah, he was very cutting edge.

Yeah, yeah, for his time. And I ended up going to his ranch and doing his cleanse and learning iridology from him. And it really was sort of one thing after another after another. And I remember in the late 80s, I was chaperoning Dr. Jensen. He was speaking at a chiropractic convention up in Vail, and Jeff Bland was too. And I'll never forget I introduced them. And I got to sit in the hotel room and hear, you know, Jensen, this old school naturopath, talking about, you know, all of his experiences with food and detoxification. And. But he didn't know the biochemical pathways. And Jeff's sitting over here talking about phase one, phase two, liver detox mechanisms. And, you know, and I wish it was the days where we had recorders in our phone because, you know, I could have been a fly on the wall doing this sort of this bridge of this old naturopathic, you know, empirical evidence based sort of experience to this highly technical biochemical view of why all that actually works. You know, why. Why when you're eating your beets, does your liver function possibly improve, for example, or dandelion leaves? Or, you know, we know that it's helpful. We know it's detoxifying, you know, so it went from that instinctual, intuitive, trial and error kind of empirical experience for, you know, generations building wisdom, for example, about herbal medicine, to, oh, suddenly there's this thing called functional medicine. And it started explaining naturopathic medicine, you know, basically. So I had the great privilege of literally being in that bridge and being able to, you know, just. I mean, just so lucky to suddenly have these teachers that are cutting edge and talking about these possibilities. And, you know, just one thing led to another, really did. And when I look back at it, Deanna, I just. I don't remember ever planning any of it, really. Don't.

That's good. It keeps you. Keeps you on your toes. You never know what's going to show up next.

Yeah, exactly. The more I stay open like that, and I stay open to a flow, like when I've gone into my mental, like, I got to make it happen, got to make it happen mode, it's pretty much guaranteed I'm just gonna hit my head against a wall. It's just not how my being, what I've learned about myself, it's like, that's usually based on fear and resistance and, you know, impatience and trying to make things happen in a way that isn't in alignment with how things are actually unfolding and how they could unfold for me. And so I try to, as much as I can, I try to pay attention to that and be mindful to that and sense that. And when I do that, things flow and they just kind of the next thing comes up.

You know, I really like that if more people thought like that, they wouldn't be as stressed. Sometimes we just literally have to go with the flow. We need to be open to the things that are showing up. You know, Todd, one of the other things that I, as I hear your story, it makes me think about how, you know, I even had this A little bit in my upbringing where my. My mother was a bit on the leading edge of things. So it kind of gave me a leg up earlier in life. And when I look at you and your path, that time frame between 17 to 19, you made a lot of different decisions. You became very aware of your health, and you had then the rest of your life to explore these things. Whereas for some people, they might crop up when they're in their 40s, so they don't quite have that same depth and breadth of these different modalities, experientially, intellectually, the whole gamut. So I'm kind of curious about your parents. I mean, were they always, you know, being Norwegian and, you know, into nature and lifestyle, did you already have that imprint, even beyond going into martial arts and even beyond going into naturopathic school? But did you have that upbringing? Was it very holistic in its way?

In a certain way it was. I mean, I think my dad's love for nature, like, I mean, that was where he really connected and centered and I think felt free, you know, to be himself. And I felt that. And he wasn't a man of very many words. You know, he was a very good man. He had a really good heart. And he, you know, he didn't always express it in words, you know, but I could feel that. And. And it imprinted me, for sure, about love of nature, you know, love of living things, the living world. My mom was more of a. She was an executive secretary, and she worked, you know, full time when I was growing up, and. But my parents were very much in love, you know, very much soulmates. That was a demonstration to me. And they kind of got through thick and thin together, which was another imprinting for me. And they also supported any choice I made for myself. You know, they weren't trying to manipulate me or, you know, like some fathers, for example, are like, I've done this. You know, this is my business. I want you to take it over. Or, I went to the military. I want you to go to the military. There was never any pressure like that. As a matter of fact, Deanna, my mom used to say. I'd say, mom, did you ever think I'd become a naturopathic doctor and doing the things I'm doing? She's like, oh, no. She's like, you were just sort of an average student, you know, B's and C's. And I just thought you'd just get an average job and be an average guy. And I'm like. Like, I have never, aspired to be average. But when I. When I sunk my teeth into naturopathic medicine, I started getting great grades because I was interested, I was passionate, I was. And I wanted to know everything about it. And it wasn't working up to a grade to get the grade, you know, it was because I really wanted the knowledge, you know.

Yeah.

And school up to then was like, you know, whatever, you know, sort of a test of endurance. I mean, there were some highlights and there were some teachers that were really instrumental in my life, but. And my mom. My mom was supportive, you know, she really was, but she wasn't as much of a nature girl as my dad. And you know, the other thing they imprinted in me, every Friday night they'd go dancing and they were incredible dancers and like the whole place, they had memories of the whole place stopping to watch them dance. So from that got ingrained to me and I just love dancing. And even now, every night I'll put on music and dance in the kitchen.

Oh, how sweet. I love that.

So, you know, but what they really demonstrated to me is they really loved each other and they were really together right to the end. So, you know, they weren't really into natural healing or anything, but they did eat pretty healthy. My mom was definitely a bit of a sugar freak. And you know, it was. It was a fairly low stress lifestyle until my. Had some other things happen. But anyway.

Well, since we're getting into your upbringing, in your childhood, did you have a spiritual imprint at home? Any kind of religious framework?

Not heavily. My. My parents, you know, came from the minute they were born in Minnesota. I was born in Minnesota and there was all the sort of the Lutheran, Christian kind of band and Christian, they would take me and my sister, my older sister to church and. But it was interesting, they never went that much. And I remember being in Sunday school and I would get into arguments with the teacher because I really wanted to know the truth, like, how do you know this stuff? Like, how do you know this really happened? And they couldn't tell me and I'm like, really, what is this really all about? You know, And I was, I don't know, fifth grade or something. And I just, I was a bit of a. I don't know, I just was sort of a rebel in that way. And I just didn't want to buy it face value, even as a kid. And then a little later, I like middle school, I had an experience of oneness. That's all I can describe. I literally, I can, you know, remember it as plain as gay. I was walking through a field, walking home from somewhere, and all of a sudden, everything. I just felt one with everything, every living thing. And I sort of dropped down on the ground, you know, it's like stunned. I didn't know what to do with it, you know. And, you know, Ken Wilbur. Are you familiar with Ken Wilbur's work? He talks about waking up and growing up and opening up and cleaning up and so forth. And, you know, it was like a waking up experience, but I didn't have the mental, emotional constructs and development, you know, I wasn't mature enough to really integrate the experience and know what it meant, you know, and. But it always stayed with me. And then I started. Shortly after that, I started getting, like. It was the 70s, and I was starting to get interested in the ecology movement. You know, there was the ecology movement in the 70s, and, like, how to protect our natural resources and starting to talk about smog and pollution. And those things started to interest me, you know. And after that, and I also started to, like. Once I got into high school, I started. I was a weird kid, you know, I started looking at transpersonal psychology.

You were ahead of your time.

Yeah, but I. I didn't know what I was doing, but I felt compelled by it. Something was speaking to me about it. And so I just had these experiences. Then I. Early high school, I consciously looked into different religions. You know, I would meet with priests or elders or, gosh, all sorts of different people. And because I wanted to. I wanted to know the truth, man. Like, why are we here? What's this all about? What are we doing? Where's. Absolutely. You know, and for some reason, that happened at an early age, and I have no idea why. I really don't.

So what did you find out from your exploration? What was intriguing to you? What were you drawn to?

Well, I was just drawn to who are we as a soul? You know, what are we doing here? What's our purpose? And what is this all about anyway? And why are we dealing with so much suffering and all these existential kind of questions, you know? And so it just led me to reading different things, meeting different people, being exposed to different presentations. I mean, right about that time, there was a holistic health sort of grouping that got together. All was sort of happening organically. I mean, I feel I have to pinch myself, Deanna, because it. I feel really blessed by that early thing. Like, sometimes I hear some of these medical doctors are like, I've been practicing medicine for 10 years. And then I had this health crisis, or I had this something or another. And it broke me open. And then I started looking for these things and for me it was like the other way around. Almost like my whatever was inspiring me to seek like I was led me to naturopathic medicine. You know, it was just right in alignment about this holistic framework of self development into our greatest potential. Now that was kind of the leading momentum in, if you will. And my attitude was, you know, I know that I'm limited, I have weaknesses, I have challenges, you know, how is it that I can live into my highest potential? And that was certain in the 70s. I was thinking like that and I'm, I'm so thankful that I somehow, somehow that happened. And I have theories about why it may have happened, but I don't know for sure.

What are some of your theories about why you were such an early adopter?

Well, I do believe, I think I heard you ask another people about this sort of imprinting them where maybe do we come in with some sort of imprinting about like maybe there's a setup for this sense of purpose or sense of soul mission. And I believe that's true. And I, I believe that we all come in with this confluence of all these imprintings of, you know, everything from our ancestors genetically to, you know, the bioenergetics of the time we're born and where we're born, the culture grew up in and our sibling sequence. And you know, there, there's, you know, like in the traditional medicines, Ayurvedic medicine, Chinese medicine, etc, they look at constitutional types, you know, or our phenotypes, right. So and I think sometimes in our constitution we're wired for different levels of awareness of consciousness as well as what our drives and motivations are going to be about our own self development. I really feel like some of that's already baked in, you know, it's already baked in and then it's kind of like teasing it open. And I had an experience before I studied martial arts of. I've never shared this publicly before, but I had this experience when I was a teen of it was like a past life experience or memory of being a Tibetan monk doing sand mandalas. I didn't know a thing about Tibetans or mandalas or any, anything. And I had this very vivid, and I wasn't high on anything, this very vivid experience of this that I never forgot, you know. And then shortly after that was about maybe a year after that is when I met this martial arts master and he starts talking about Tibetan martial arts and Tibetan Buddhism and Tibetan meditations and I'm just like. Feels like my people, you know, Just feels like my people. And so, you know, I. I believe that maybe that we have past lives. Remember, maybe our soul goes through development of lifetimes of being humans, being bugs, being trees, you know, our energetic dynamics of our soul, if you will, might have all of these influences. And so I feel like maybe. Maybe I'm an old soul, you know, and maybe I just got lucky that at this turn of the cycle of spiraling, my development as a soul, that in this lifetime there was, you know, it's just born at the right time and got into it. I mean, when I got into naturopathic medicine, it was like the wild west of naturopathic medicine.

I can imagine. Yeah.

This grounded, licensed, you know, national organization or it was all over the place. A lot of schools coming, going, and, you know, it's like trying to anchor. Trying to ground somewhere, you know. You know, Joseph Desorno, which you've interviewed, you know, he was real instrumental in kind of grounding it.

Yeah.

So I. You know, and then what I've learned, like, in Rayyan, which, you know, I don't know if we want to segue there yet, but.

Yeah, please, Ray.

I had the great privilege. Another synchronistic experience. You know, I learned iridology looking at the iris of the eye with Bernard Jensen. And what I learned from that is, you know, it does show us constitutional traits and tendencies. It doesn't show us acute sickness. It doesn't show us, you know, oh, now you're healed and your eye changed. That's a myth in iridology, you know, because their iris never changes much throughout a lifetime. But what it is an imprint of is personality. And the way I learned that and physical attributes. So I was doing iridology, this is back in the late 80s or so, and I had an iridology film camera. And one day we got a call from a guy going, you know, I'm doing this class on eyes. My camera broke, and I heard, todd has a camera. Can I send people over to get their irises photographed? And I'm like, sure. It just so happened that I just got a new camera. I trained my assistant how to take the pictures using my eyes. And so she got all the students done and, you know, put all the names on, and then she included mine sort of. Sort of inadvertently, right. I didn't know this. And she sent it off to this guy, Denny Johnson is his name. And I get this cassette tape. This is days of cassette tapes. I get this cassette tape in the mail about me. And he did 20 minutes on me, just looking at the iris of the eye. Never talked to him, never met him. And man, he just. I mean, I have chills right now thinking about it. He just had me pegged as to, you know, sort of the essence of how I operate, you know, kind of Todd's operating system and a personality, right? And I'm like, what. What just happened here? So I call him up and he's laughing on the other line. He's like, do you think of that? And I'm like, I'm just blown away. Like, what, What. What are you doing? And he said, listen, I'm doing a. A talk tonight. I want you to come out and listen to me. And I'm like, great, I will. So I ended up following him around for 25 years.

Oh, my goodness.

And learning from him because he. He was the first to really find out and figure out that the irises showing us personality traits, you know, are you more of a thinker, more of a feeler, more introverted? Extroverted. Introverted. Extroverted, Extroverted. Introvert. Right brain, left brain dominant, and then many other things, and I was just blown away. I'm like, how can that be? You know? And so in that work, I've learned that, you know, everybody has a certain predictability to their personality, you know, and mathematically predictable. And when I do a reading on somebody's eyes, it's probably the weirdest thing I ever do with people, you know, it's really an affirmation of them. They feel really see seen and feel really heard and really understood and deeply. And that experience alone is really powerful. And it also affords me the ability to go, who am I working with here? You know, and how am I going to apply things like, I know this person isn't going to take pills every day for six months, you know, or this person's going to need a lot of data to back up what I'm talking about. And this person just wants to know that I like them a whole lot.

And, you know, Interesting.

Yeah, it creates rapport. Creates this really deep rapport. So, you know, I felt very privileged to learn that. And I felt like I was sort of directed to learn that, that I was supposed to learn that. That's what it feels like. You know, I'm still learning about that. So, you know, I've just been very grateful that, you know, functional medicine came along. I started seeing everybody who's anybody teaching that, and it was like, wow.

Well, let me ask you about that, because sometimes when I talk to people who have been trained in naturopathic medicine, they kind of feel like we know what works, right? We know the elements of nature and the basics of lifestyle medicine. Do we really need all the biochemistry? Do we really need all the testing? Do we really need all those numbers? Where do you sit in that? Because your entry point was much more on the intuitive, artful nature side. And then later, yeah, you were bridging over to the analytical. So especially in this day and age of AI and we're amping up on devices and technologies. So how does The Todd of 17 and 19, you know, that age range now, look at all of those things? And how do you kind of like assimilate that all?

You know, I think it's sort of like, maybe the way I would say it for me is I sort of walk the middle way, you know. In other words, I'm. I love the traditional sort of vitalistic approach of the original naturopathic philosophies, you know, about really aligning your life with nature and eating clean and detoxing. And in other words, they're all really basic common sense kind of interventions, you know, And I, I actually love the fact that functional medicine has really dived deep into the biochemistry and genetics, genomics. You know, I think it's great, you know, just another opportunity to really understand the miraculousness of who we are as human beings and how this all works. Being able to maybe more test and assess, I can get much more specific about somebody's microbiome rather than going, okay, I'm just going to have you do an elimination diet, do a bunch of probiotics and digestive enzymes and some really basic things to get your gun on track. And that can work with no testing, right? That very much can work. But now we live in a much more complicated era as well. So in other words, when I started out in 1982 in practice, you know, that was about the time that things like glyphosate and forever, forever chemicals are coming on the scene and more and more meds are coming into the scene and we're getting much more toxic environments. And, you know, we didn't have terms like, you know, biotoxin illness and mast cell activation syndrome and chronic inflammatory response syndrome and so forth. We didn't have those kind of terms. But I think the population in general has gotten way more unhealthy. And the statistics show that, you know, I mean, all health statistics in this country are pretty poor. So practice has actually gotten more complicated and harder Like, I've gotten more complicated cases over the years, Way more than when I first started out. Way more. And functional medicine has afforded me to go, oh, you know, there's some actual tests we can do to try and really get to the either causal or influential drivers behind these biochemical imbalances, you know, even down to, hey, you know, genetically, you don't produce glutathione, you know, nature's number one detoxer. Right. You better take that maybe for the rest of your life. You know, I didn't know that 20 years ago. You know, I didn't even know what Glutathione was 25 years ago ago. So. So I think we're getting more dialed in and more specific and we can get even more personalized. You know, I look at it as I've got this big bag of tools, you know, and. And I'm always sitting there filtering for, okay, this person has all this constellation of symptoms going on. They have this sort of constitutional nature, you know, this is what's going on in their life. And I get to find out really detailed biochemical imbalances in this person. And we can get our hands on the dials and sometimes correct that pretty rapidly, you know, and maybe get them feeling better. Dr. Jensen used to say, in order to feel better, you need to start feeling better. And what he meant was, like, you know, a lot of people don't even hardly have the energy to take care of themselves, you know.

Yeah.

And they need to start building up and start functioning and. Okay, then we can address some of these other things, the other stresses. Now you've got the energy to do that, you know, so it's a long winded answer, but I'm thankful for both, I think. You know, I know there's that conversation about, oh, well, you know, functional medicine is at this for that sort of allopathic approach to natural medicine. Right. And some of the naturopaths are like, oh, that's, you know, getting away from the vitalistic core. And to some degree, it certainly can be, you know, to me, ideally, it's about a blend. It's about a blend of still coming from what's most harmless and what's most effective as fast as we can possibly make that happen.

I love that.

I love all of it.

Yeah. And I really like that you take a balanced approach there. So it's not weighed based on a bias or an opinion about certain things, but taking the best of each one and wrapping it all together and saying, okay, I like how you walked us through how you would see a patient. Right. So as you mentioned, looking at the constitution, whether you're using the eyes or just observing behavior and moving into the biomarkers, there's a purpose for each one of those, and it kind of gets folded in. What you're doing, in my view, is the art of medicine really the soul of healing, because you are taking all of it, like painting and making a canvas through that clinical encounter. And maybe you need different paint and different shapes for different patients, but at least you've got the paint and the tools over here to help in creating that journey with them.

Exactly. Yeah. I've got sort of like the, you know, body of knowledge and the body of experience and my own intuition and, you know, and objective data. So when you look at all of those things, you get a composite of the person. And like you said, the art of the medicine is how do I leverage that person to start adopting behaviors that really start supporting them. And that can be biochemical, that can be meditation, that can be sleeping, you know, that can be, hey, you need to get out of your job or your relationship or, you know, And I don't tell people to do that, of course, but I might strongly suggest that they consider it, you know, and so it's kind of like I really get to know that person, you know, I really get to know them as much as I. I can so that I can truly personalize. And the personalizing is the art, you know, and to me, that's. It's a really creative challenge. You know, you can have your protocols, but then you always have somebody goes, I can't take that, or I react to that, or, I'm not going to take that many pills, or I can't swallow those, or, you know, and it's like you're. And then you're sort of massaging everything to, okay, how about, you know, can you do this? And to me, after 43 years of doing it, I still enjoy that. You know, that's. If I had to go, you know, if I had to go, you know. Okay, Otitis Media, case number 10 today. Here's your antibiotics. See you later. God, shape myself.

Yeah, that's not so fulfilling. Right, Right. Well, the other thing about you that I sense is that you're very much a walk the talk kind of person. I'm just curious how you go about your day. Maybe if you can unpack that a little bit just to give us a little peek in.

Yeah, I mean, you know, my own challenges is practicing what I preach and, you know, I Have this sort of motto of how do I practice exceptional self care? And that exceptional self care is a supreme act of self love. And I tell patients that this is about learning how to love yourself. And so this t right here is loving me, you know, so, you know, I. I have my little rituals. I get up in the morning and I have slow mornings because I need them with my condition. And I meditate and I journal and I sip tea and sometimes I'll sit out in the sun. And I do that almost every morning, I would say, at least for an hour, sometimes a few hours. And if I don't do that, I just really don't have as good of a day typically. And then I'll do like a smoothie or something. I don't like to eat too much in the morning. I usually just do two solid meals a day, you know, and. And as you've probably found, Diana, like with, with diet, and I love this about you, and I just want to compliment you on this, is that, you know, you're not, you're not a. There is a diet. It's more like you're really into the diversity of color and texture and so forth and where. But you know, in our journey of learning how to eat, for me, you know, it always transforms, it always changes. So now it's more. And since I had throat cancer, I sort of go toward more of a paleo, not a keto. I don't do well on keto diets for whatever reason, but I do more of a paleo, you know, meats, veggies, good fats. I kind of like Mark Hyman's Pegan diet kind of idea. That's kind of what I found for myself.

Yeah.

And then usually what I like about virtual practice is it's been a nice step in my own self care because when I had throat cancer back in 2018, 19, I was already playing with the idea of going virtual. And then I had to have a big radical neck dissection surgery in 2019 and. And then covet hit and it's like, oh, I went virtual by default. And it was great. It's perfect. It was just because I could be home, I could take care of myself. Lunchtime. You know, sometimes I have to do some work on lunch, but usually I'll close the laptop, I'll get outside, I'll do some movement, do some breathing, you know, do some good food, and I'll take time to eat and then I'll do an afternoon of patience. And then sometimes I'll take a nap. And that's really nice. You know, close the laptop, take a nap, and then have my evening. And that can be for whatever, socializing, doing nothing, whatever. And I feel like I have a good work life balance at this point. I only see patients three to three and a half days a week. I look back at my earlier life when I was, like, writing books and seeing people five days a week and doing a radio show. And I'm like, how did I ever do that? It's a lot now with my hair getting whiter and whiter and, you know, it's like, oh, I'm just really doing all I can to protect my peace. And I really love feeling peaceful and saying no to what I need to say no to and not taking on too much. I used to be, you know, fellow Capricorn, driven to achieve, you know, and now it's like I'm just really slowed my life down and made it as simple as I can. And I'm really enjoying that. You know, like tender clutter, you know, and I'm decluttering and I just cleaned out a storage unit that had 30 years of my life in it. Wow. You know, stuff like that.

How do you feel after doing that?

It was great. It was great. I really. It was like this weight off my chest, you know?

Yeah.

So I just. The level of. Excuse me. The level of that we accumulate on our lives can be just ridiculous. So that's what. That's sort of the cycle I'm in right now is to.

Really.

I'm just valuing meditation more and more. I've been. I've done meditation now for 45 years, I think it is. And it's always amazing to me, Deanna, that it just goes deeper and deeper.

That's, you know, listening to your life. I just feel like it's just exactly what you said. It's so peaceful. It's like you've arrived. You're in this place of, you know, perfect amount of stuff.

Sorry.

Well, it feels so good. It feels like, gosh, you know, if people can just get a little piece of what you have in their everyday lives because they're just so amped up, ramped up. And I feel that you've got that parasympathetic balance you feel. I just feel the evenness from you, whether through your speech and also through you explaining your whole day and how you unpack that well.

You know, I had some good mentors to help anchor, sort of fiercely anchor that kind of like, how do you take care of yourself while you're Practicing during the day, you know, and even from school, the school that I went to, and some mentors since then. And if. If I don't really work to protect it, it'll fill in really quick, right?

Yeah, yeah.

That. It's more like this is what I really value. So therefore, I'm prioritizing it for myself and I try to encourage patients to do the same, however that, you know, shows up for them. Yeah. So that's great. Yeah, I'm enjoying my life. I used to be way more tense and stressed out and all of that. And, you know, that's a great thing to learn, how to relax. Relax. It's great for going, hey, man, most important here, dude, you know. Yeah, it's really.

It gets your priorities very clear very quickly. Right. I've seen that for my friends and family who have had very challenging illnesses. So, Todd, I'm curious, like, looking forward now, now that you reach this Zen point of, you know, really having. You're in the groove of your life and things are feeling good, when you look forward into the future a bit, you know, what. What do you see for yourself and what do you see around? Just like your. Your meaning and purpose. Will you stay and connect to everything as it is now, or will you be like you were when you were younger as well, which is just being observant and seeing what comes your way? Maybe a combination of those things. You know, what. What do you see for yourself going forward?

That's a great question. I, you know, I used to be goal oriented, right. And now I really. I have intentions. I have intentions, and I don't have defined goals. I have intentions and Because I know if I get too attached to defined goals and it's not working the way I project it to work and so forth, then I'm gonna get upset about it or stressed out about it or whatever, and I'm just not that attached to how things have to go. So I'm just sort of still going with the flow because when I step out of that, it's painful. I have a project I'm working on that I. I can't really speak about publicly, but it's super exciting, and I'll tell you about it as soon as. As I can. And that's a sideline passion that I'm working on right now, and I. I think I'm winding down practice very slowly, you know, very. Just doing a little less hours and. But, you know, I love practice, and I'll probably do it as long as I can do it, and I'm just enjoying sort of, I'm enjoying aging from a standpoint of my spiritual, emotional intelligence, spiritual intelligence, sort of development, you know, and I'm enjoying being a grandfather and, you know, sort of being an elder in the tribe. And, you know, I don't enjoy the suffering I go through with my body, but I learned how to be with my body, you know, in my suffering and my pain and my stuff. And it's less and less. It less and less hooks me into, what should I say, forfeiting my peace, you know, in other words, pain tries to talk us into, like that's the reality and that's the way it's going to be kind of thing. And, and I said it with deep empathy for anybody listening. With chronic pain, I know what it's like. And you know, I, I found this book, Deanna. You might like it. It's. It's called Finding Freedom in Illness. It's written by an ex monk, Buddhist monk, who has had a chronic illness of some sort with horrific pain and almost dying a number of times and so forth. And it's this super eloquent book about his ability to just be with sensation in his body and how to just deal with it without judging it, without trying to make it go away, without trying to change it. You know, most of the time we're always trying to, you know, take a pill, suppress it. And it's more like, how do I just be with this? And that book was a game changer for me personally. Dealing with chronic neuropathy and pain and so forth is how to. How do I just be with it? And as I just be with it, sometimes it dissipates, you know, just. It's kind of magical, really. So I like sort of experimenting with that kind of stuff. You know, as far as any grand plan there, there ain't one. I, I think I, you know, the more I relax into the unfolding of what's inspiring me and nudging me and, you know, grabbing my attention and paying attention to that, the happier I am. Wow.

Words of wisdom. I just, I feel it. Todd, thank you so much for having this conversation. This has been really beautiful to see what you're about underneath the surface, going deeper. Is there anything that you'd like to leave us with before we close? Is there anything that you feel is important to be said?

You know, one of the things I've learned in the healing profession, and I could talk about many things that could be another hour or two, but one of the things is that, you know, when you're chronically sick or you're suddenly challenged with illness, if you can adopt an attitude of. Anything is possible, you know, and. And that's relative, right? So it might be, okay, I've got chronic pain, but maybe if I get it to here, that's way better than here. You know, I'm more functional here than I was here. And I, you know, oh, gosh. If I'm open and I'm searching and I am genuinely and earnestly looking for answers and more functionality, suddenly things will show themselves to you. And I truly believe that. I truly believe that. Like, you'll find the practitioner, you'll find the book, you'll find the talk, you'll find the podcast, you'll find the whatever. You'll find it. You'll find something that'll be helpful for you to some degree and be open to continue to learn and to kind of to want to learn as much as possible. You know, I love working with a really educated patient who's reading everything they can about their gut or their mental emotional state or whatever it is. It's like, great, you know, good for you, because I know for myself, I'll just sort of end on this is. You know, I have Charcot Marie tooth neuropathy, which is, you know, really bad, rare neuropathy. Almost nobody's heard of it. It's usually debilitating. And so for me, I play this little game about, well, you know, putting sort of a goal post out there. Well, you know, my neurologist eight, ten years ago said, well, Todd, guys are age two, typically don't walk in here with this disease. They are in wheelchairs. You know, I'll never forget he said that he's professor of neurology at Anschutz here in Denver. And. And I said, really? Really? And he said, yeah. And so that's in my mind of, well, no, I can't go hike a mountain. I can't go ski, but I can walk, you know, and I can do things. And so I. I'm thankful for that and any level of function I can get. Hallelujah. You know, it's like, wow, you know, I'm out, out, out doing the statistics. And I'm. I. I suppose I have a little pride about that, you know, like, oh, yeah, or my throat cancer, you know, well, you know, Todd, you don't do chemotherapy. You could really die. And I'm like, okay, I could die, you know, but I'm not doing chemotherapy. So that's a whole nother story. But anything is possible.

Yeah.

You know, diligently look for answers, and you'll find something.

It's kind of like a martial arts approach to life. My husband does aikido, and one of the things with aikido is, you know, moving with the energy. If something's coming at you, you know, you duck, you know, there's a who, you know, And I feel like martial arts, just to go back to the genesis of your story, is so, so much of a philosophy for life.

Yeah.

You know, in terms of looking at the ability to overcome, just like you were talking about, like, seeing every challenge as something that is, you know, growing the soul and strengthening you from within. And to me, that's. It's almost like what you're doing and what you've been living is the martial arts of life. It feels like you've embodied that. It goes beyond the mat, beyond the blocks, beyond the dynamic. Right. And we take it into the everyday. So this has been really fantastic. I can't wait to have people listen and hear what you have to say, because it's, again, a beautiful way to weave one's life with all of that wisdom.

Yeah. Thanks for saying that. It really very much feels that way. So great to be with you.

Thank you, my friend.

You too, my friend. Yeah. Great.