Science & Spirituality Talks with Trupti Gokani, MD

Hello everyone.

Welcome to another episode of Science and Spirituality Talks. Today our guest is Tripti Gukhani. She is a board certified and recertified neurologist who has founded and directed an integrative neurology center for 15 years. And during that time she managed complex and chronic neurology patients and was often able to help them when others were unable to help them. She also chose to become certified in Ayurvedic medicine through two well recognized US programs. So what I'm hoping that we do today in this conversation is talk about that very interesting cross section between neurology, Ayurveda and she's also a published author. She's got two best selling books and one of them quite recent. So we'll talk a bit about those too. So welcome. Tripty.

Thank you for having me, Dana. So grateful to be here.

Oh, I was so looking forward to this because as I was, you and I were just talking about, I feel like we know each other. When we were in Chicago and you live in Chicago, I'm from Chicago. We made a connection and I kind of felt like, oh, I like her. You know, there's something about her. Yet we've never really gone deeper in the way of, I would say our personal lives in the way of, like, how did you find science, how did you find medicine and also your spiritual path? So that's what this is going to be about. I'm looking forward to it.

Love it. And I felt that energetic connection with you right away when I met you too. It was just this beautiful kind of feeling, a meeting of souls. And I said, I love her. I'm gonna stay connected with you. And we did for all of these years. I love it.

We sure did. Yeah. And that's why you were on the top list of people that I wanted to reach out to.

Thank you.

So let's start with, you know, you're a medical doctor and I've had a number of physicians and it's really interesting to see how all of them got into medicine. And some of them, I would have never predicted that path. And for some of them, they knew quite early on that they wanted to help people. So I'm wondering if you could take us back into when did you know that you wanted to be a medical doctor? What was that calling like?

So for me, you know, the calling was such that I was actually in a program. I was in the business school when I was in college and had no plans on being a physician. My dad's a physician, retired now. I grew up with Physicians. A lot of the family friends went to medical school. A lot of their, you know, the kids followed the parents and went to medical school. And I said, I'm not going there. So it's interesting how I was actually instructed to consider going into a non medical field as opposed to many Indian individuals you'll meet. You know, because it's very common for with Indian culture that you want to choose a field that will give you that honor, respect and success. And medicine really kind of portrayed that. Yet for me, I didn't know if I really loved it at that time. When I was hearing my father's perspective of it, I never heard him come back with these amazing stories of his practice. And I thought if he doesn't love his work, maybe I should consider a different, you know, path. So I went to business school. First year of business school, I realized I didn't like talking numbers and I wasn't drawn to, you know, accounting and finance. And I thought there's something about science that I loved. So I decided to switch out of business school, went into economics and biology. Not sure what direction I'd take. Would it be a business direction or science direction? And then kind of started speaking to friends of mine that were going to medical school, started realizing that could be a really interesting path to take. And so it was only kind of almost I say, you know, you can move towards things in life or move away from. I was moving away from business school. So then I decided to move a little towards the medical profession. So when I entered first year of medical school, I actually was quite unsure even at that time if it was the right path for me. Which makes it interesting because the journey I took after that was, you know, quite an interesting one.

That's so interesting that your family didn't really nudge you in that direction. And it almost felt like they were guiding you away from it. What, what type of physician was your father?

Yeah, so he's amazing. And he's 87, doing so incredibly well, living a really vibrant life and so proud of him because we lost my mom about three years ago. And he family practiced doctor, internal medicine, I should say more internal medicine. And he, he, I think he enjoyed his life as a physician. Yet I do believe coming here to the Western kind of way of practicing because we, I was in Africa, I was born in Kampala, Uganda. Even though I'm Indian of origin, his practice there was very different. So I think when he moved here to the States, it wasn't the same kind of freedom, you know, the same type of practice. So I think maybe that was why he wasn't coming back with these amazing stories. Because the practice was very much a business right in the early days, and he had to make sure he could run the business and take care of his family, you know. So when I look back and I realized when he said, consider going into business, I think a lot of it was based on safety, being secure, being safe, and he wasn't sure, and I'll add this piece, that a woman would be okay to be able to do it here in the States. Because, you know, we are the ones that if we have children, we birth the children, we take care of the children. He's like, how are you going to be able to go to medical school and residency? So, you know, again, I was a little bit of a rebellious, somewhat teenager thinking to myself, and in my early years, what you think I can't do it. I'm a woman, I can go to medical school. So I remember even when I was deciding in college, should I go this direction or that direction, and I left the business school, I was like, you know what? I'm going to show him I could do this. So there was a little bit of that interesting push, pull in our relationship like that you can't do it. And I thought, well, maybe I can. So I'm just being honest. I don't know if I really understood, really had a good grasp of what medicine was, you know, Was it difficult.

For you being a woman once you were in medical school and you still were kind of on shaky ground, you weren't really sure about it even the first year. But how was the dynamic in the way of you being a woman? Because I talked to somebody else who really had a trying time in gynecology. That was her area.

So first year was all right. The first couple years were fine. I think when I found the challenges when I was doing the rotations, surgical rotations, were challenging for me because of the comments that were being made because of the way I was treated, somewhat disrespectful as a woman. Interestingly enough, when I finished my residency, I might have even written about this in my book. I think I did. I'll share it now if I haven't. Well, my last year of training, I was the chief resident in neurology. And the chairman said to me at that time I had let him know I was gonna go into migraine, into headache medicine. And he said to me, you're gonna take care of the worried. Well, those are mainly women who are just, you know, they're really not that sick. And I thought, wow, you're kidding. Cause my mom had had migraines. I had grown up with the. The mother struggling with severe disabling pain to a point where I'd come home from school and she'd be lying on the couch and just quiet. Dim lights were off. I thought, she's not making this up. This isn't the worried. Well, this is a. You know, now we know severe intractable migraines is what she struggled with. And this is before those medications, the triptans, were available. So she just struggled. And so I witnessed firsthand what it was like. So this interesting kind of theme of, you know, being the woman in medicine, being told this is a word, well, migraine affects, you know, mainly women. So there's something that drew me. And also I was resisting and fighting against this kind of conventional thought that women aren't strong enough and that this profession isn't something that should be pursued because these women are just complaining of headaches that don't really. Aren't really severe. And it's fascinating. That's a whole story down that path that we could. We could take. But it's fascinating to see where migraine has come now and how it is considered to be one of the most disabling diseases that we know of in neurology.

Wow. That's another thing you and I have in common. Both our mothers suffered from migraine. Yeah, my mom doesn't have this anymore, but definitely some same kind of thing. I'd come home from school and she'd have her head hanging down. It's like, I knew it was just one of those migraine moments, right?

Yeah.

So do you think that that prompted you going into neurology? Was the experience with your mother? I mean, why didn't you choose dermatology or gynecology or gastroenterology? Why was it neurology? Was it because of the migraine?

It was because I loved the bridge between the mind and the body. And this idea of migraine wasn't at that point, this is 25 years ago, understood, when it comes to the pathophysiology of the. It was this. You do an MRI on someone's migraine, you don't find anything, but they're having these attacks of pain. So we knew that stress and emotions and anxiety and depression played a role in the manifestation of migraine, yet we didn't understand the circuitry of what happened. What were the events in the brain that were leading up to the attack of pain? So I found that intriguing. And I found it intriguing that my mom was struggling and yet no one could explain what these episodes were. So it was enigmatic. It wasn't discovered. It was to me, this space, this place to go where I could be almost like a researcher and a physician. And of course, I love taking care of women. You know, I felt for the women that were coming in and I, you know, the clinic, my last year in training, all the patients, migraine patients, came to me because I was that compassionate, loving. I get you, I understand you. They asked me, did you if you had migraines? I said no, but my mom has had severe migraines. I understand your pain. And I felt like that was great for me because I was able to take my mom's challenges and bring it to help up so many others. Right. For all these years. And then that took me down this path of really understanding this mind body connection, which I don't think I would have explored in dermatology and any of these other fields. So I think the neurology and the mind and psychiatry to me was fascinating.

Were you doing something in medical school with your own body? Mind, mind, body relationship? Like had you started meditation or had you brought in anything from your upbringing or just even looking at the lineage of Ayurveda? And we can get into like how you actually got there. But I'm just curious, like, because you were intrigued with the mind.

Yeah.

Did that take you into any kind of self practicing, of modalities?

Yes. I should, I should actually explain. This is explaining not only what got me into that, yet also Ayurveda. It was my first year of medical school, mind you. I come in kind of like bright eyed, bushy tailed, like ready to go. And then I got hit with the most intractable disabling. Three months of insomnia. I just couldn't sleep and it was so bad, I was gonna quit. I was actually close to quitting medical school and went to see my dad and he said, you're fine, Your exam is fine. You did my labs, your labs are fine. There's nothing wrong with you. And then I went to see the therapist and I was desperate enough. I said, please help me understand, why am I struggling because I've been checked out medically and I'm fine. And then me, the question that is the most important question, because it really framed a lot of what I wrote. The second book this, the Stress Rx, she said, are you feeling stressed? And my response, Diana, was no. I'm like, no, I'm not Stressed because I'm like, I'm great. I'm doing great in school. I have a great family. This. So I was, of course, 25 years ago, I was beyond stress. I didn't even know how stress could manifest because we didn't talk about it back then, you know. So I left the therapy office thinking, okay, I've been like, you know, now I'm cleared.

I'm.

I don't have anything to work on with her. So then the visit to the psychiatrist happened. It was my dad's good friend. Ten minutes, eight questions. He did the ZIGGY caps. It's an acronym. You know, the diagnostic criteria for depression. Major depression. Are you feeling sad? Do you have insomnia? Do you have guilt? Do you have low energy? He asked me these questions. I said yes to most of them because, yeah, I have low energy. I'm not sleeping. Yeah, if you have psychomotor retardation, I'm not moving as fast as I normally do because I'm not sleeping. Yeah, I'm feeling low energy because I'm not sleeping. So the reality is I said yes to six of the eight questions. And he said, you have depression. Here's Prozac. And I said, whoa. And I was a first year medical student, right? So it was this interesting juxtaposition between being patient and being in medical school at the same time. And I thought, whoa, is this what happens in the doctor's office? Because if so, I don't know. So it was a really big wake up for me. And that was the moment because we didn't have social media, we didn't have the Internet, I didn't have resources to go to. Went to the bookstore, started reading self help books. Andrew Weil, you know, Deepak Chopra, Bernie Siegel, like, Spontaneous Healing was the first book I read. And I was like, craniosycho therapy. What is this cool stuff? And I got so into it. And here I was between anatomy and histology books, and then reading on the side in my break time, these other books. And I was like, this is fascinating. And that's how I discovered Ayurveda. So when it comes to practicing, I stopped kickboxing because I was doing kickboxing, started doing yoga, even though I didn't want to do yoga. And I started to practice this more mindful way of being in the midst of being in a very intense medical school training program. And I stayed with medical school, got to training in residency, and then said, at some point, I'm gonna bring this back into my clinical practice.

During that time of training in neurology, was there much discussion about the mind body connection in the way that we know it now with mindfulness and understanding BDNF and really looking at the mechanisms. I mean, because, you know, Andy Weil and a lot of these people, they were ahead of their time. There was some science, but it was still kind of scant. So if you're talking 25 years ago. So, you know, I can imagine I'm seeing you poring over textbooks and trying to understand yourself, trying to understand your mom, your patients and. But yet not really having a robust, I would say, counterpart to, you know, you kind of had to scramble through all of these different sources. Right.

You know, it's interesting as I'm pausing, I'm really thinking about that time. There was something so alluring about reading. It felt like I was, you know, you read a mystery novel and you just get pulled, pulls, pulled in. You're just like, this is so fascinating. I honestly think that this, this, these pieces of work and these early textbooks and I give so much credit to these early thinkers for just bringing this information out to us. I was so intrigued by the way they wrote the messages. They were sharing this ancient wisdom. You know, in Ayurveda we talk about Vedic wisdom, like this idea of, you know, connecting with that energetic self. And what does that feel like and look like? So much of it made so much sense. Here I was, I didn't need the data, I didn't want the data, nor did I care for data. I just felt that this was the right way to be. And when I learned more about how to get to know oneself, you know, all of this Eastern medicine, philosophies, connecting within. What is the mind? What is the mind saying to you? What are the programs that are working in favor for you? What is working against you? What is your intuitive sense? So much of that was so fascinating that I really just kind of embraced it and didn't look for support or data or anyone else to kind of say this is right or wrong. It felt right. And then, hey, I was sleeping again a month later after I practiced some of the techniques. So all I needed was an N of one me. I'm like, I don't care if no one believes in this ancient science. I know it's 5,000 years old and people should, I know my counterparts think I'm nuts. But all I'm going to say is this has worked for me. So to tell you, during in residency you're asked like, did we talk about mind and body I still remember the cardiologist. I will never forget. I'm trying to think of her name right now. She had a crystal, and she went to one of her patients, and she started to spin the crystal. I think she was checking the chakras on the patient. Everyone in the room was like, she's off her rock or she's crazy. I thought she was the coolest woman ever. I said, what are you doing with that crystal? Why is it spinning that way and this way? And I. But I remember because I don't open. I think, you know, that's what happens, Danny. You open yourself up and then you're like, you're not going to be critical and judgmental. If anything, you're so receptive because you're. You want to lean in and say, what is it you're doing? And how did you pick up on that? Like, she literally picked up which chakra was off by using this, like, little pendulum. Right. And yeah, the rest of my. My friends thought she was crazy, but I have to say, there were some early thinkers then, too. Not that I was taught during training, though. I do think there are people that were, like, on the fringe, like me, you know?

Yeah. And you kind of have to find your community in that way. Right there. There would be certain people on the periphery who might be more inclined in that direction. But was it challenging for you? Because this is just like the first year within medical school, right, that you started to explore this. Did you feel like jumping ship and going over to Ayurveda completely and saying, like, you know what? I just want to study this and immerse myself completely?

Well, the. The part of me that was the safety part was speaking. Right. The root chakra was like, you. You gotta have a job, you know, can you even have it? Will you be employed if you leave? And I didn't know about any Ayurvedic training programs. I was so not in that world. I thought this was. Only could do this in India. So quite frankly, I didn't even think that was an option. Like, now, for anyone that's listening, there's tons of Ayurvedic training programs, and you could do them virtually all over the world. I did not know that 25 years ago that I could have done some programs because there were a few that existed. Very few yet. So I was just like, I'm gonna stick with this because, hey, I'm sleeping again. I'm feeling all right. Learn something fascinating. Tuck that in the back pocket for later, you know? But I know it's there. And it's super cool. I'm not gonna talk to too many friends about it. Cause they're gonna think I'm crazy, but I'm gonna, like, just know that it exists. And this is really neat. And I kept on reading some of those books, you know, on the side. Yet I wouldn't really talk about it because, you know, I wanted to fit in. Wanted to fit in with the rest of the group. Yeah.

What strikes me is your degree of confidence in yourself for forging forward and yet still believing in what you knew to be true.

Yeah.

And I'm curious if, in your discussions with your parents, did you have siblings or do you have siblings?

I do. I have two siblings, an older sister and a younger sister.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah. Neither one of them's in medicine. Yeah.

Okay. Well, I was just curious if you talked with your family, especially your father, about your interest in Ayurveda and was there an acknowledgement of it? Was there a dismissal or how did your family take that?

So I'll share. Yvette. You know, when you look at training in India, my dad was a physician, trained, grew up in Africa, but then he did training in India. India had actually, because of British colonization, had banned Ayurvedic medicine. You know, during the time of the colonization, it only became kind of recognized back as a legitimate offering and kind of brought into the state system 1971. So many years had gone by where India did not really think of Ayurveda as a legitimate science, even though it's 5,000 years in origin. So when my dad did his medical school training in India, you know, it was not respected. Ayurveda was not practiced openly, nor was it allowed to be practiced because it was banned. So my dad, when he heard that I was going into Ayurveda, I was interested in Ayurveda. He, I don't think was open initially. I think he was a little skeptical and questioning why you're training in neurology, which is so well respected. Why would you go do this backwards voodoo esque science? And I told him, I said, dad, hey, you know what? It worked for me. In a time of crisis where I was going to leave medical school, it worked for me. I tried to convince him, I tried to convince my mom and my siblings. I would talk to them about it. Yet I knew, you know, you feel like there isn't this kind of readiness yet. I didn't really push where I felt like it wasn't necessary. I wasn't getting that reception. So I just kept it quietly within. I knew, again, this worked for me. And then I waited to have some kids and then try it again. And when I started to see amazing things happen with my kids and. And then really opened up my own practice and blended Eastern and Western medicine and then had patient after patient improved dramatically with these somewhat simple transitions that I was making in their lifestyle based on their Ayurvedic state. I knew that there was something to this, you know, so it was kind of. I just kept on testing it when I felt like I was ready to test it with the right audience and the right people. And so, thankfully, like I said, I had two kids that allowed me. They didn't really have much of a choice, but they allowed me to kind of utilize some of these techniques with them.

Yeah, yeah. You know, that makes sense. And it's great that you kept at it, that you continued despite not really getting. You know, probably you had just a few people around you who were in support of this, but the majority did not seem to be in alignment. So that takes a lot to really forge forward. It feels like, you know, as I listen to your story, it's a little bit of the archetypes of being the rebel, being a bit of a warrior, and being a healer. You know, you have this really beautiful pat, and that's just kind of like tippy top. There could be so many others, and so it's kind of neat to see all of those blended together.

Yeah.

I have a question about Ayurveda and your spirituality, because for some people, they compartmentalize and they say, okay, Ayurveda is a healing system. It's about figuring out your physical constitution. It kind of has its limits. Other people would see that it's a healing practice that connects to something deeper that is philosophical, that can change how you live your life. And so I'm kind of curious with you. First of all, how did you grow up in the way of a spiritual framework? And did studying Ayurveda actually change that framework for yourself?

So I'll start by saying I did not grow up with a spiritual framework in terms of my family and friends were not necessarily the most spiritual, you know, meaning that coming from Africa, I'll back up a little bit. I was born in Kampala, Uganda. We were kicked out of the country. I was six months old. I was actually smuggled out of the country. My mom was the one that brought my sister and myself over here to the US and to Chicago. A lot of the early life was about survival, and it wasn't. Not that spirituality isn't important. But that was kind of beyond the realm, I think, of Maslow's triangle. You know, we're focusing on survival needs. We weren't thinking about the higher level needs and desires and wishes to be spiritually connected human beings. We're focused on can we get food on the table? Quite frankly, like, honestly, my dad redid his residency again after practicing 10 years in East Africa, came to the US and basically had to complete residency all over. I still remember living in this apartment with cockroaches. Like, we had nothing. We came with nothing. The classic immigrant story. I remember my fifth birthday party was at McDonald's. I was so excited to be at McDonald's. Since Ronald McDonald, you know, was there. I was like, oh, my gosh, this what an amazing treat to be at McDonald's. So that was kind of the early upbringing was just focusing on survival, focusing on getting to the next day, focusing on getting my dad through his residency. My mom did a night shift at Motorola, putting little gold plates on beepers, just getting through that time. Then by the time, you know, we kind of got the first house and made our way to, like, you know, to the middle schools and high school, there was more a focus on assimilation, making sure we fit in. Because again, it was all about making sure we survived. So if I didn't speak proper English, if I didn't get along with everybody, if I couldn't succeed academically, what was I gonna. What was gonna happen to me? So my mom's focus was all on that. She didn't speak to me in Gujarati, her native language. She didn't talk to me about Hinduism. She didn't discuss religion. It was, you better fit in with these people that were around and make sure that you get along. She didn't say that outwardly, but she was thinking that, right? I know now I look back at that early life, it was very much about make sure you fit in, make sure you fit in. And so on the weekends we go to some, you know, Indian friends houses and I dress up in the Indian clothes, which I abhorred. I did not like wearing Indian clothes because it was all very itchy and big and too, like, flashy for me. But we put on those outfits on the weekends. And then on weekdays was. I'd try to assimilate in school, but there was no talk of culture or religion or spirituality. It was more like the India you see when you go to. You think about the cultural aspect of it, like dressing up and music and parties and Indian food. But that's where it stopped. So then it was only until, honestly, it was the best thing that ever happened to me. I had the insomnia episode. My first year of medical school. I started reading these books back to Andrew, you know, Andrew Weil and Bernie Siegel. Love Medicine and Miracles and some of these really amazing textbooks. I started to kind of feel the sense that there's something bigger than me, that this isn't just about me doing well in medical school and me surviving this and me going out there and running a clinic and take care of patients. It's what's my service, what's my dharma, what's the bigger picture, why I'm here. So it was in that reading that I became spiritual. It was in all of the work from all of those, you know, Wayne Dyer, all of it. Louise Hay, like I can go on and on, right? Eckhart Tolle, of course, later. But it was like all of those thinkers that got me thinking in a way that was much bigger than myself. From the, from basically zero until med school, I was kind of thinking about me focusing on me and my own survival. And that's. My family was focused on making sure our, the kids survived. Then it was like, wait, wait, wait. There's something more than surviving this world. There's a way we can kind of live in kind of relationship with the universe and create and co create and do something amazing to serve. Then that changed. But Ariva, that changed that for me, not medical school.

Okay, so did you bring some of that into your, the family that you created?

Yes.

Did you have more of a framework or an imprint going forward for your children?

So that's where I think it was. So, and I'm so grateful, you know, that I had these early teachings, you know, because as you know, and now kids go through their challenges in different ways, be it health or all sorts of crises in terms of the mental health, you know, and the challenges of, of growing up in this western fast paced world. I'm so grateful I have these tools because in the same way I was trying to understand why can't I sleep? Why is this happening to me? I started to change the framework. Why is this happening for you, honey? What's the reason behind this conflict? What's the reason behind this challenge? Medically, what's the reason behind it? And as you start thinking that way, you start thinking of it, the universe is kind and just trying to guide you. And what would. So as I had that base way of thinking, I kind of encouraged them to think of things in that way.

But.

And then we'd have these beautiful Ayurvedic tools, which weren't so harsh as the Western tools example daughter had. My daughter had ear infections. The Western model was use antibiotics one after another after another. You and I both know what that does to microbiome. And then I said, there's gotta be another way. Let me look at the Ayurvedic textbooks on this. This is before I got the certification in Ayurveda. So they're looking and realizing all these beautiful concoctions and oils and teas and things I could give her that are herbal and plant based, and Mother Nature has given us the medicine. Why am I not using this medicine first? So I started using garlic, you know, Mullen's oil and things in her ear. And the ears would clear up within a day. And I thought, why am I not using the medicinal and the botanicals that Ayurveda gives us and ancient medicine gives us and that the universe has given us? So I started to treat them in that way, and they started realizing, my son, I'll still never forget, he came downstairs with a sore throat and he was like, a little congested. And in terms of the Ayurvedic type, he's the kapha kind of earthy kid, you know, and he came down congested and he said, mom, can you give me some kimchi that he has for that for breakfast? And I'm like, he's Learned. He was 10. Because, you know, kimchi is great because of fermentation. It's great for that spice. It kicks up that kapha, earthy, heavy, breaks it all up. But he knew. He knew the tool to use, right? And so that, to me, Ayurveda embodies not only the mind and the spirituality, but also using the botanicals and using the medicine of nature, which I think is very much spiritual kind of intervention, right? In some way, the energetics of food. Because food isn't just calories and protein and carbs, you know, it's. It's this energetic prana, the energy of food. The energy of it. And I got rid of the microwave very early on because I learned more about the prana. And you don't. You know, this is just my take. I don't believe we should be nuking our food and microwaving our food. We should take our time and cook it the right way. And so the kids grew up with those kinds of things, so they thought it was completely nuts. I mean, I can. I can tell you, they're like our house, we don't have a microwave. My mom's kind of crazy. But now they get it. Oh, this is why. Okay, we get it now. And there's something nice about preparing a meal.

Yes.

Just preparing. And that alone is, like, to me, such a beautiful teaching. Because ancient medicine teaches us the gut. The importance of the gut function. Right. And importance of food and diet. And so, I mean, I can go on and on, but all of those things were part of our way of living.

That's a really beautiful integration of what you were learning and then putting it into practice. Practice. And it was like, you know, taking something ancient and full of truth and then bringing it into modern day to really undo a lot of the. I don't know, I would say disruption of our society. Right.

So that's.

It's so great that you were able to do that with your kids.

Yeah.

So tripty. How would you say. How would you codify if somebody were to, you know, you know, you're in the elevator and, you know, you only have a short period of time and somebody says, you know, tell me about your spirituality. How do you kind of give an elevator pitch on it? I heard you say a couple of times, like, the universe, or, you know, in terms of your belief in something greater, Source, God, the afterlife, just how do you see? Or is it nature? Is it in the everyday? How do you contextualize your spirituality at this point in your life?

So at this point, the way that I really approach it is this idea, and I try to encourage others, if possible, to think of it this way, because it's helped me tremendously during challenging times, is to know that within us, we have our blissful, most optimal state, the Athwan, the soul that's within every single one of us, that's vibrant, that's healthy, that's alive, that wants to be seen and shining and glowing. Yet at times, there are these programs, these. This operating system that kind of prevents us from connecting with that spirituality is growing in a way to find truth within that, often within that soul, find that sense of self to shine, and find a way to bring that forward using the conversation from the divine, whatever you'd like to call it, if you'd like to give it a form or just, say, energy or spirituality or just this, this light source that. That is always guiding us to find that connection with that blissful state. We get stuck in the mind, we get stuck in the world, and we forget that that exists. So for me, spirituality is that growth towards finding connection with that place, that being within us, using Source, using wisdom, using whoever you believe in to help guide you there. And knowing that, you know, each and every day, we can connect with that blissful, happy, centered being. And then do our dharma. Do the work we're supposed to be doing, whatever that is that we're. However we're supposed to be serving. But then we can connect with ourselves to serve at the highest level. Do that. And I can teach others to do that. I mean, that's it, right? That's. To me, it's like the most beautiful thing. So when I hear challenges and I hear people that are feeling challenged and feeling stressed, I try to remind them that at the deepest sense of self, there is that beautiful soul that only wants to shine. And don't forget about that. And the spirituality to me is that divine source that's guiding you to connect with that. Nice.

Really nice. And I like how so many people could take that as a model and insert their own kind of like their own framework or then their own overlay.

Yes.

And still use that model in the way of, like, tapping into that bliss energy. So how do you connect with that yourself? Are you doing a daily practice? Is, you know, are you. Is it prayer? Is it intention? Do you have a daily practice that brings you into more of that bliss?

Yes. Yes. And so back to, you know, medical school when I was challenged and I was looking for tools. Looking for. What are these tools that can help me feel? Because I knew that was in me. Like, I knew when I was going through that tough time, I was like, I know there's a part of me that's absolutely optimal and healthy and can sleep beautifully. Where's that tripty? Like, how do you get there? How do I get to her? And so early on, because of, you know, I was so challenged, I decided to, you know, do yoga. And I realized that when I say yoga, yoga is a connection with the self. And truly, I was utilizing the asanas, the poses. So for me, practicing just 10 minutes of some sequence of poses, I've since then been certified as a yoga instructor, Hatha yoga instructor, and hatha, hazy, masculine exhalation, TA's, the inhalation, feminine aspect of ourselves. So it's kind of when I wake up in the morning, I want to kind of create that breath and that practice where I connect with that aspect of me that's most harmonious for that day. So I'll do a few poses, a little bit. A little bit of breath work while I'm doing the poses. That's a must for every day. Sometimes if it doesn't happen first thing in the morning. I'll allow myself to do it later in the day because sometimes we have an early morning meeting or we have something that we're doing and I can't get to it right away or a need of a family member. That's okay. I'm flexible with it. But during the day, at some point, there'll be 10 minutes of Asana practice and breath practice, and then it is a must. I'm in Chicago, so I'll do as much as I can. Connecting with nature, feet on the grass, going to the garden, watering the plants. And I love to make chai. I'm a big chai fan. I think it's a spiritual practice for me, honestly. My husband's like, she just loves to just make the chai. I will pound the cardamom. Smell that cardamom. It smells amazing. Sprinkle it in, run out while it's a little boiling. I went to the garden and cut some lemongrass, you know, do a little bit of watering, come back in, put the lemongrass in there, Put fresh mint. I like a very specific type of black tea that I put a loose tea in there and let that all come. And then some add some Ayurvedic spices, you know, that are the become chai masala spices, clove and black pepper, and let that come to a boil. And that's part of my morning routine, is smelling that. So there's the grounding, there's a little tea making. And while I'm doing that, I'm listening to a Hanuman chalisa. If you've heard of that one, it's. Yes, Hanuman chalisa.

Wow.

It's like power and it's beautiful. And I like, you know, Krishna Das. There's some beautiful, like, different chants. Oh, my gosh. Listen to his voice. It's, like, magical. If anyone hasn't listened to him, listen to him. He's incredible. Oh, my God, his voice is incredible. I listen to that and it's like, you know, I kind of like to wrap it all together, you know, I'm doing one thing. Why not throw the music on while I'm. And how can you not feel good after doing that? I mean, you gotta be having a really bad morning if you can't feel a little bit better. You just do something like just simple connecting, breathing, you know, that's it. It's nothing crazy. Maybe, you know, 15, 20 minutes. And then during the day, I'll try to take a break. And if I notice, I'M getting tight. Do a few more poses, do a little breath, do a little journaling. And then I do believe in reading something spiritual. I'm a big believer of that. So I have the Gita and I will. I started a Gita group after, you know, pandemic, and we kind of keep that going and just read a couple verses. You know, I think, you know, it gets any textbook. People can insert their favorite textbook right there. But whatever the textbook is that you align with that just thinking in a more positive way. And sometimes it's important to turn off the news, right, and go back and read a book that has a little bit of a different perspective on life than living. And when people get so marred in the politics and all that, I was like, think of the bigger picture. Pandemic. Why did the pandemic happen for all of us? Why is this certain situation politically happening for all of us? Let's think in a bigger picture. And life gets a lot easier to live, doesn't it?

Mm, yeah, Absolutely. Wow.

You.

You've done a lot of, like, spiritual habit stacking with all of the. Yeah, no, it's. It's really beautiful to hear it all come through in your everyday life. Do you.

I feel so happy. Like, I'm gonna tell you, I'm just gonna start my thing. If people start doing it, you just. You feel so happy. It's not like I'm even trying. I just want to, because I want to feel happy. Like, if you start to feel that real bliss every day and everyone that's listening, find your three things, you love to do that. You just know you could be listening to music. It could be like a song that just makes you feel vibrant. But if you feel bliss, right, don't you just want to tap into that every day? Like, I don. Even have to try. I just know it makes me feel happy. So. Sorry to interrupt you, but it's just the bliss is the going towards, like, I love that bliss state. And I was like, I want to get there, you know, without a drug. Without a drug.

Do you ever find yourself in a non bliss state? I mean, you're so positive and you've got your routine down your, you know, root chakra, needs are met. So do you ever find yourself, like, kind of reverting back?

Absolutely. We're human, you know? We're human. I lost my beautiful blue, my dog, last year, September, you know, and he waited, you know, because he's a. These pets are spiritual beings. We can have a whole conversation on that too. He waited until Both kids went to college. Like, he waited, he waited. He was like, perked up. We were going to put him down the week before. Okay, this way I know that there is a divine. I just am convinced because too many things have happened in life that I'm just, you know, so he. He was literally going to be put down. The Monday before he passed, we had an appointment with the veterinarian. And he knew because I think the bags were being packed. Daughter's bag was packed, son's bag was packed. He's like, I better put on my best self. So he perked up, smiling, laughing, moving around. Everyone thought to, you know, themselves, like, what happened to Blue today? Because he was basically had heart failure and he was lying on the floor and we thought, let's take him into the vet, do something compassionate. Put him down while the family is here, before everyone goes to college and goes to school. And we'll all say goodbye to him together. Because he had just been lying flat and not getting up and just looked miserable. He gets up and perks up as if nothing is wrong. The whole week, not just for a day, the entire week, he's just bouncing around and jumping. And I was like, we can't put him down. Look at him. So I was like, he's back. Like, I. I don't get this for six months, but that's fine. He's. I don't know if I understand this, but he's fine. It's like that lucid interval before someone passes. They say, there's that lucid. He did. He did that. And I witnessed it. We all, the whole family witnessed this. So he's lucid for a week, though. An entire week. Okay. They both leave. And then it was a full moon, middle of the night, I wake up. I hear him panting, panting, panting, panting, desperately panting. And I looked at my husband. I woke him up, I said, this is a. He's going. Tonight's a night. I took him downstairs and he passed within a couple hours. And I. It was heartbreaking. So I was down for a month. I was down because he was my buddy. Like, he was that. And he was, you know, the kids left, so. Yeah. And. And, you know, I. I had to tell myself in the morning, troop D, get out of your funk. Troop D, get up and go, tripty, don't do this. But I laid around, I couldn't get going. I was depressed. I was down. I'm human. And. But. But I said, you gotta. You know, I talked myself. I willed myself out of that state. And I said, you know, those tools go back to the tools. So I start with nature, actually, just. I think I. That's where I started with like just getting grounding in a day as a daily practice. Just getting with September, October, so getting some sunshine. I went to the ashram and I spent some time in quiet, connected with friends. Really important, underemphasize the importance of connecting with friends. Went on some walks, went on some coffee chats. Just. Just said, can we just talk? And eventually got past it. We all can get past it, but we're human, right? And we all have our moments and it's okay. Right? It's okay to grieve. It is perfectly fine to grieve. And I allowed myself to grieve. But then at some point I'm like, now you got to move on. Yeah, he, you know, you got to move on. And then I did something different. I started looking for signs of him. So I was like, blue, if you're around, do something like this, flicker the lights or just show me you're there. And blue would kind of show me, show me the essence of, you know, in different ways. And, you know, I think that's kind of fun too, to look for some signs, you know, with my mom passing, I did the. Show me like some bird come my way. And it was a cardinal that kept coming, you know, and my sister got the cardinal too, which was kind of cool. Oh, my. Yeah. Which is kind of neat. She's like, tripty. Is it just me or is there a cardinal? Keep showing up. I'm like, there's a cardinal. There's a cardinal. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. So I think it's just, you know, we have to allow ourselves. Right. To go through it. But I think, because I've practiced it and I've been really intentional about it, and I believe that as a provider, physician, coach, I've got to practice what I preach. I can't say you've got to do this, but I'm not going to do it. That's not fair. So for as much as I, you know, I say get to bed at 10 o' clock because Ari Veda says between 10 and, you know, two in the morning is when you get the pits of fire energy going. Get to bed at 10 o'. Clock. I do my best to get to bed at 10 o'. Clock. I'm not gonna. People have seen me leave events. I said, I gotta follow the rules, you know, I've had a tough week and I'm gonna leave, you know.

That's excellent. Yeah. Well, with the passing of blue and also your mother.

Yeah.

What do you think happens when somebody passes in physical form and moves into non physical? Like what is your thought about the afterlife?

Yeah, I really believe it's all energy. We just move into a different energetic field. It's just an energetic place. It may be connecting with that divine energetic field that I do believe has a certain vibrational energy and we maybe meet with that space or we move into another space. I do believe in reincarnation. I do believe that maybe it moves into another being. One of the, one of the principles in Hinduism is that there is this constant afterlife or not necessarily you're moving into another body, but your, your energy is never leaving. Even though the, this is in the Gita, that even though body is perishable, the Atman, the soul is imperishable. So, you know, I really believe that there's still a presence and that, you know, I've had enough, I think, interesting conversations with people to believe that that's true. And so I think that's kind of nice to think this life isn't finite. They're going to live to 80 and be done now, you know, probably going to come back and if you can kind of clear up some of the baggage and the things that, you know, you didn't do so. Right. The whole idea of karma in the past life or in this life, if we can be better and better each day and do better for others and serve more and be more, you know, hope for that next coming back will be a little easier. And then we get to that moksha which is that enlightenment to the belief system. I don't know, that's working for me and I feel like in terms of my mindset, it gives me in a good space, keeps me in a good space and. Yeah, nice.

You know, when I think about your early days, you know, being in Africa and then that need to assimilate into American culture and not really having a strong connection to India. As I listen to you now, I feel like, wow, she has brought in a lot of her Indian culture that she didn't have when she was raised. So I'm just kind of curious, like if you stack up all of the things that you are feeling, thinking, believing versus maybe within Hinduism or within the Indian culture, would you say that you have actually brought in a lot of that or would you say it's like you, you've picked and selected things that work really well, but it's not like clear across the board. It might be just like things that you See, would have a resonance.

I actually think, because I didn't have that upbringing, that I was far more curious and receptive and interested. So back to reading some of those early textbooks, because I didn't have that almost that imprint on me and that belief system and that religion told to me I wasn't taught to believe a certain way, to think a certain way. To some extent, I had that freedom to explore. And as I explored, honestly, I could have chosen anything to go into. But I love the concepts of Hinduism because, you know, Hinduism isn't really a religion per se. It's the Indus River Valley, the people that live there, the Sindhus, and they call them Hindus. And, you know, it's just this idea again of the Atman, the soul, moksha, karma, you know, Brahman. One source, we call it Brahman. Some call it Jesus consciousness or Christ consciousness or whatever you call it, you know, but it just rest resonated, you know, and it made so much sense. So as I was working with patients, you know, I worked my clinic back in, you know, the early 2000s, and this is in the early days of OxyContin and Purdue Pharma. And I go to those pharma meetings. And honestly, I have to say, Dopesick and some of those shows on TV are very, very clearly representing what some of us went through when we started practicing. You know, we could call in OxyContin in high numbers. I can call in Vicodin and Xanax for whoever wanted it. And I had these pain patients that I would prescribe these medications to and go to these conferences. And being told that it's okay, there's no upper limit. You can give as much as you want. And I thought, wait a second. Hmm. You know, in my day, I didn't chase away my insomnia by taking more Ambien. You know, I didn't just keep band aiding it. I got to the root of why was I having sleep issues? And I was incredibly vata. Pitta. Imbalanced. I was so excitable. Skipping meals, drinking coffee, never sat down for lunch, going to bed at 3am, kickboxing. Like every single thing I was doing, even though I was told I was healthy was wrong, was unhealthy. And the moment I started to choose according to my nature. Slow it down. Troop day. You're too vata. You're moving. Slow down. Do some restorative yoga. Do some breathing. Even though you think it's boring, do it. But then to fast forward to my patients, I was noticing that. Wait a Second, this is the same thing that's happening. They're chasing away their pain. You can't chase something away. You've got to get to the root of it. And I said, okay, wait a second. If I can allow them to reflect upon this and get a little bit more into the why is this happening for me, we cut down the narcotics, we cut down the medications, got people a little bit more grounded, taught them to breathe. And so I really feel like all of this is part of the embodiment of the final kind of being of who I am is I learned the principles, practice the principles, write about the principles. And I talked to people about it. People were open to it, which is amazing. Everyone was like, I'm desperate enough, I'll listen. Because I had complex patients that had like failed Mayo Clinic. They're like, we're ready, you know, we're going to the Ayurvedic neurologist. So okay, we'll listen. And I was like, okay to tell you something, I'm going to have you think this way. And they were receptive. And then it was amazing. Some of these chronic cases got better. So I think with spirituality, to answer your question, in a very long winded way, and the religion kind of for me was embracing some of these principles that were part of the ancient textbooks. Yes, I did the Ayurvedic certification and learned the full on practice of Ayurveda. But I did choose those pieces that I felt like my modern western clients could kind of align with. So the pieces of like, like knowing your dosha, your mind, body type, knowing what I call your stress state, where you are now, knowing some just basics about the types of foods you're eating. You know, I meant to mention the kapha earthy. Like if you're earthy you want to eat spicy foods. But if you're really pitta fired up, you might want to eat the hot spices. You know, eating like tomatoes or having chili peppers when you're really fired up and heated and have a right sided headache, not a good idea. Cool it down. Cucumbers, cilantro, coconut water. You know, I've got some pomegranate juice I was telling you about, like sipping on things that are cool, right? And food is medicine. It's like such a cool thing. It's like you. I just go back to food. Cause I love food, but I mean, but it really is medicine. I think I woke up to the fact my mom was the best cook, by the way. She was like known to be like the, she was A home economics teacher in Africa, and she made the most amazing meals. And so I grew up with a really cool, amazing food. But what she didn't understand is the medicinal effect of the food that you're giving us. Medicine. Mom, you're actually, you're the one giving, not dad, who's the doctor.

He was giving you love, right? It was that she loved to make those foods. So then you, you had the best of both worlds there with your parents.

You got it.

So I have two other questions for you. One is kind of a smaller question perhaps, but it really does tag on to what I just asked you about Hinduism and also Ayurveda and how you've picked certain aspects. What about, about astrology? What about medical astrology? Do you have any inclination in that direction? Do you see it as a useful operating system?

Absolutely do. And I did. I will be humbled to say I did start a course last year and I stopped because. Oh, my. It is right?

What happened was it just like it opened up like a whole other world or.

Yes, yes. I, you know, I was also finishing the second book, so I was kind of busy with the writing and editing, but I thought to myself, I need to fully dedicate myself to understanding. You know, I, I, I downloaded an app to understand, you know, the, the, there's different charts, right? The South Indian chart and the Vedic astrology. I was looking more at Vedic astrology based on the moon calendar versus the sun. And, and it was so powerful that I almost had to pause the learning because I just wanted to sit and embrace it. But to answer your question, I think it's, it's such an incredible piece to understanding who we are that our, our do we in Ayurvedic. In Chinese medicine, all the our energ is dictated by the stars and the planets. And I'm humbled to say that where things are moving, if, you know, Saturn's in retrograde or whatever, Mercury's in retrograde or something's happening, we're gonna feel that energetically on this planet. And to understand why one is feeling so anxious, taking a deeper dive and looking at the solar system and looking at the lunar system and looking at how everything's interacting can really help us understand us at our truest self. So I went a little bit into it to understand the Vedic understanding of astrology and dosha, the imbalance in our nature and why people get stuck into a fiery state or get stuck into a vata state. Yet there was so much more to it that I felt that I was humbled to say that I would need to really go to an expert to learn this because for me to learn on my own is a little bit too daunting to be honest. But I'm such a believer. Have you studied it and have you? I'm sure you have.

I have an attraction to it and I have explored the Western and Vedic and it's almost like you have to stay in one or the other because they're different. There are similarities, but there are clearly differences. Right.

I'm kind of following the lunar, the female, you know.

Well, yeah, sure. And that, that precedes the, the western, the Roman, the Greek.

Yes, yeah, yeah.

It's the sun masculine versus the moon, feminine, feminine.

And I, you know, I think we kind of agree that, I don't know, there's something to it that is. And then when you look at our volley and our holidays, like everything is falling along this like lunar cycle and our cycles. Let's just talk about that for a minute. Like you're supposed to cycle along, you know, the, the new moon and the full moon. And I think when I learned that one piece of information when I was, I'm still cycling now, I'm 54. But when I was in that premenstrual, kind of like trying to time my cycles and looking, you know, it's fascinating to think that if I'm not cycling at the right time of the lunar phase, that I might be too masculine in my life and I need to change. Maybe I should stop working out when I'm getting my period. That's a very masculine thing that westerners do. And maybe I should to be introspective and go back and go to the garden and do some more time with girlfriends during that time versus like exercising intensely. How many people do we know that exercise the same every single day, doesn't matter what their cycle is. And just learning that piece to me is like the moon. Pay attention to the moon. Just if you did that alone, I.

Know it's just one celestial body.

Wild. Wild.

Yes. My last question for you, and this is kind of my, one of my personal interests as well. So I'm kind of curious your take, especially being a neurologist.

Yeah.

What is your take on near death experiences? Like have you had patients that have had NDEs? What do you think is really going on and do you feel like that's something to look at and to do further research on?

Yes, yes and yes, 100%. I think that's incredible. I think, gosh, what has happened? I had a Couple patients. Tell me about some experiences that were just incredibly powerful. I worked in the icu, you know, as a neurologist. And I had some interesting cases then that were just didn't make sense to me. And I was not sure what was happening. These patients would. The back to the lucid. There was the lucid interval that would happen. I remember this one woman, 95 years old and been intubated and no movement whatsoever. No. Her reflexes were basically diminished. There was no physical strength in her body. And 24 hours before she passed, woke up, started moving. We sat her up, we extubated her. She asked for her family, she talked to her family, me. They were like, she's back. Almost like my blue. She's back. 24 hours later, she died. What was that like? What was that? I mean, come on, come on, you can't make this up. I saw it in front of everyone, was just shocked. And so the near death, I believe that's the Atman. We call it the Atman, the soul making its way out and trying to decide, am I gonna stay or am I gonna go? And that's it. And we move into that space that I think is this beautiful divine light. I do think it's that vibrational feeling, that high, that we're all trying to find our way into that high vibrational state at all times. We want to reach that because we can feel amazing there. And I think that's where the soul wants to kind of decide, am I going there or am I staying? And so for me, it is worthy of exploration. It's worthy exploration of why we stay, you know, why we choose to stay, what's happening there. Right. I believe it though. So I'm pretty convinced. I. I have seen different things happen, I've heard different stories.

I thought you might have. That's why I wanted to ask you about it, being a neurologist, because there's even a book by a neurologist who was a. He didn't believe in it, so to speak, and then had one himself. So I thought I need to ask Tripty about this for herself.

And what does she think? Yeah.

Excellent. Well, thank you so much for making time for this conversation. And is there anything that you'd like to leave us with? And also to, you know, any final words, and also how people can reach you and how they can learn more about your work and your books.

Yes. Final words are, I think life is this incredible magical journey and that, you know, to start to look at our challenges, you know, is really opportunities to connect with ourselves, to connect with the meaning behind why the universe has sent us on this path and to, to explore that and to lean into that and to, to start to have compassion towards others that might be struggling to help them on their journeys. Because if we can all lean into our own challeng, learn from them and grow from them, then we can be better with others and have more compassion for others who are challenged. And I do believe that's why we're here is to, to grow in that way. So just to give everyone that positive feeling that I've seen some really complex, difficult, difficult cases but even in that darkness there's light, you know. So with that, you know the reason I wrote the second book because it's a labor of love. As you know, writing books is not easy. First book, Mysterious Mind was really for migraine patients to get a sense of how to use Ayurveda with migraine and how to have that conversation. I'm so grateful. I did talk a couple weeks ago and the woman that presented me, she's like I can't believe this. I read your book and my migraines, I've been 8 months migraine free and she'd never met me before. That makes me so happy because I love to touch people in that way, right to get to them before they have to come to me. So that book is really about that. It's 10 years old, hit its 10 year anniversary and then the second book, the StressRx is really this idea of how we can conquer our own stress personality. And I believe that we have three brains. The way we think, the central nervous system, the way we feel, our energy nervous system and the third brain is the microbiome and if we can kind of balance all three using all these tools, whatever tools work for you. It's an exploration of that using Ayurveda but then going a little deeper. And so my website Tripty Gokani MD people can find me there and the goal is really to empower others with this ancient wisdom. Just like those books were there for me. I want there to be some books for people out there that are looking like I was seeking 25 years ago that can say I read that and now that all makes sense and not have to go through 25 years like I have and you have of going to conferences and learning and going through the grid of this. You can read some books and get there a lot faster, you know, and I know not everyone can see us, you know, in terms of our coaching work. And so this is the way we can reach you with these books and this work. So hopefully everyone, you know got something out of this and felt a little bit more optimal and positive about the world and themselves. And thank you for having me. You're always such a pleasure to spend time with, so thank you. I feel so grateful.

Thank you. Tripty. You know, I must say, this has been so delightful, so positive, inspiring. And I just love how you have woven this. This path of life for yourself and how you've been this light for so many of your patients and your family. So thank you. Thanks for being here.

Thank you.