Science & Spirituality Talks with Yousef Elyaman, MD

Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Science and Spirituality Talks. Today, Our guest is Dr. Yousef El Yaman. He's a leader in functional and integrative medicine, and he's done a lot as it relates to, I would say, setting up clinics, working with a multidisciplinary team of many different specialties. And I usually see him at various conferences talking about things like nitric oxide, cardiovascular health. He teaches for the Institute for Functional Medicine. He also has a very nice platform that he has interviewed me for, which is FMP Essentials. What I most like about Dr. El Yaman is that when I look at his Instagram, which is very vibrant, very engaging, by the way, so definitely look at his Instagram. I really enjoy seeing the reels and footage from his cattle and horse ranch in Ocala, Florida. So I am interested to talk with Yousef today about his journey into science, into medicine, into healing. But then also, I know he's a very spiritual person, so we're going to venture into that terrain. Hi, Yousef.

Hello. Thank you.

And you said you just came back from the mosque, is that correct?

I just came from the mosque. It's Friday. So Friday we have the sermon.

That's perfect. So I noticed when you signed on to the call, you were very much in the Zen, and we were talking about how it was Friday, you were in traffic. But yet we are both in this state of having this deep, conscious conversation. And I really treasure you as a friend, I must say. I've known about you and functional medicine for some time. And you first got me very intrigued with your creativity in your Star wars type presentation that you gave at the annual conference some years ago. And I'm thinking, this guy is really engaging. He's colorful, he's creative, he's really connected in. So it's a delight to have you here today. Let's talk about your journey into medicine, which I actually don't know so much about. Tell us about when you first decided you wanted to be a medical doctor. How did that transpire? How did that come about?

So to be honest, like, from. From as far as I can remember, I wanted to be a doctor. Now I later, my dad encouraged everybody to become doctors. He's not a doctor himself, but he's entrepreneurial. But I. But to be honest, just from as long as I could remember, I wanted to be a doctor. I remember going to the doctor's office when I was a kid. I remembered you're not feeling well and then the doctor gives you a prescription and then you feel better. So I think early on I wanted to be a doctor, and I went and I became a doctor and I did internal medicine and pediatrics, and then I opened up my own practice and I started seeing patients. And then I got frustrated because I realized all I was doing was just giving people prescription. Long term. I was looking at blood work. A lot of times they wouldn't feel better. They'd actually feel worse with the stuff I would give them. And I'm just tell. I had to just tell them, listen, just suck it up. You'll. You're gonna be. Your. Your blood work is looking better. You have better outcomes if you just kind of stick to it. And I started looking for other ways of helping patients. And that's how I ended up stumbling on this concept of functional medicine.

So what year was that that you found functional medicine?

So I started to find functional medicine in around 2008, 2009. Around that time. 2006 is when I started the practice. So I'd say within about a year, I started realizing, you don't know what you don't know. You don't know how hard it is to start a practice on your own until you end up doing it or which is good. It kind of created me to get creative and that need. But around 2007, 2008, and then when.

Did you start teaching for the Institute for Functional Medicine?

It's been about 11 years so far. So I hear about this concept of. So I start hearing about functional medicine. I was a huge critic of functionality functional medicine. People make fun of me now, but I gave functional medicine people a hard time. But really it's more of a. I'm a devil's advocate. So the way I learn is by asking questions. And some people don't like questions. But no matter how many times I got in trouble for asking a lot of questions, it's just kind of part of my personality. But I ended up going to a conference about functional medicine. It was like a supplement company. Put it on. And I remember hearing, like, these concepts and they were connecting science because I didn't realize it was so scientific. And to me, it's all about. I love physiology. So it was kind of putting it all together. And I. I remember coming back to my practice excited, but really skeptical. And I had this patient who had lupus, and she also had. She had g. She had irritable bowel syndrome. And I'm like, putting one to one together. And I heard the guts, the gateway to disease. And I said, listen, are you willing to change your food? Because she was at wit's end. She was on all the medication, she was doing worse. I said, are you willing to change your food? She says, I'm willing to do anything. So I said, listen, there's a, there's a. I called it diet. Now I call them food plans, but there's a diet. It's called the function, the Paleo diet. You eat like a stone age person. Are you willing to wear. Look that up? I don't know all the deals yet, but can you go look it up and start doing it? So she goes, she starts doing it, she comes back, she's better, she comes back again. I thought, you know, power of the mind, I'm pretty convincing. Comes back, she's still better. I checked her ana, which is the test to see if they have lupus, right? That was. Not everybody has to have it to have lupus, but it, it, but, but she, in, in her case, she did have lupus and with a positive ana, and the ANA was normal. And that's when I realized I need to look into this functional medicine thing a little more.

Had you already been engaging in healthy habits yourself that made you think that, you know, you would go to these meetings and then you started to talk about this with your patients. But had you done any of this to experiment on your own because you were so inquisitive?

Not at all. So doing internal medicine and pediatrics, you are sleep deprived. You are the. They passed this rule where you can't work more than 80 hours, which just meant that you had to hide to work. So there was a lot of blur of my life where you wake up before the sunrise, you go home late at night, fall asleep on the couch, wake up, run upstairs, change and go back to work again. So it was very difficult, very stressful time. That was kind of the, the so. And it was very like, it was very medication centric. So like we would have for internal. I did internal medicine and pediatrics. And in internal medicine, the. They did talk about personalized medicine. They just didn't really have a way of doing it. They talked about evidence based and personalized medicine. And every lunch we attended was sponsored by a drug rep. And the drug reps all had medication. So you just hear medication, medication, medication. I guess intuitive, you know, you should eat healthy, you know that you should exercise. Those are some intuitive things. But really connecting the dots and how it all fit together. Not at all.

Yeah, well, it seemed like, you know, after this patient, you started to implement more and more functional medicine in your practice. And it kind of moved into even you educating practitioners. Was that kind of an aha moment for you? Were you kind of surprised that you went from being this doubting Thomas to all of a sudden being sage on the stage and preaching functional medicine? It seems like, wow, you went from one end of the spectrum to the other. How was that transition for you?

Yeah, so I found out about the Institute for Functional Medicine because this was just like a side conference. And I heard about AFMCP and they were having it, which is the, you know, the five day. Back then it was a five day go together. It was in Tampa. So it was close by. And went to AFMCP and saw, I remember walking in and seeing, I think it was Dr. Hanaway was giving a talk and I saw a dude in a turban and being Palestinian, Polish, American growing up in Florida, there was, you know, there was a lot of bullying, there was a lot of, there's a lot of polish, there's a lot of jokes about, there's a lot of other stuff. If you're Middle Eastern, God forbid you're Muslim. So. So I'm used to, I'm used to communities like looking at you, looking at Islam, Muslims, Arabs in a negative way. So I see this dude in a turban and I see the, the guy is Avicenna, who is known as the father of modern day medicine. And there was a quote, since all disease have causes, then we ought to know the cause of sickness and health. And to those people that aren't in functional medicine like, or that aren't in medicine, that just seems so like intuitive. Yeah. Find out the cause. But that's not how we're, that's not how we're trained. So to me it was profound. And then what he also said is that the kind of helped unschool or make me look at it a different way. And that was that what he was saying is that we belong to a long tradition of healers and these imbalances were real that they mentioned back throughout the healing arts and ages were imbalances. They were true imbalances. They just might have had different terminology for them. And then he connected them to current imbalances that the pharmaceutical companies study so that they can make drugs. So when I was able to see that connection and then when I also saw in the center of that matrix. So you're looking at these seven underlying imbalances that can cause disease, that are things that you can prove in a lab. But then when he mentioned the psychological, spiritual, emotional state and that's the Central that drives it. That I was sold that, that really. So I went and I said at that time, there was no certification. They were just starting it. So I said, let me certify anything ifm put out. I went and did. And that way I so because I belong to the first graduating class, I had an insurance based practice. I remember coming back from the conference so charged and excited and I had a patient upset with me because they're like, my, you know what, my family member needed you and you weren't here. And that made me realize, you know, I need a team. And that's where we kind of added providers and health coaches and because I realized I can't, I can't just, it can't all just be on me. And yeah. So I, because I was doing an insurance based model, I had the volume and I got access to advanced lipid testing early on and I had done hundreds at that time of advanced lipid testings. And they needed somebody on the cardio module. And yeah, they called, invited me, said, we just want to see if you're available. And I'm like, yes, I'm available, yes. And haven't looked back. I've been teaching every year on the cardiometabolic sense.

Well, and I've so enjoyed your teaching, for sure. And so it's really beautiful to see sometimes how people's stories unfold in ways that we could have never have predicted. Yousef, I want to go back to something that you just said about your background, your family. So being Palestinian and Polish and growing up in Florida. So take us back a little bit. So did you grow up in the US like your entire childhood?

I did. I was born here, born in Chicago. My mom was four when she came to this country and actually her grandfather or her, her grandmother was born in the States and then they went back to Poland and that's how her father was able to be a citizen and come back. And then my dad came to the States, came to Chicago, in here to study.

So is that how they met in Chicago?

That's how they met, yep.

So. Oh, wow. So you could have been quite growing up in Chicago and we could have met way back when. That's where I'm also from.

Could have, could have. But yeah, he, he found an, there was an opportunity, married my mom, he found an opportunity, a business opportunity and he moved to a place called Frostproof, Florida. So I grew up in Frost proof Florida.

Better weather there as well. So my understanding is that you're the eldest of how many siblings do you.

Have 15 small family. Yes.

15.

Wow. Yes.

Oh my goodness. Wow, that's beautiful. To have that sense of community within your family. So out of 15 kids, did you feel like you were setting this imprint within medicine that your father really wanted you to go into medicine, wanted many probably of your siblings to go into medicine like you said. So did you feel like you were kind of breaking ground not just within functional medicine down the line, but also for your family and, you know, setting the way for your other siblings?

Yeah. As the oldest and when you have a large family like that, it's, it's. You can't. Parents can't take care of 15 kids. The only way to do it is if everybody's working together. And so you kind of have to have this hierarchical system. So the older brother. So there's a child that needs their diaper change. So I hand it to my sister who hands it to my brother, who hands it to. So soon you got like the four year old changing the two year old. But, but, but, yeah, there. I think as the oldest, there's that strong responsibility you have. I would. A lot of my childhood, I was working in my dad's stores. He was very entrepreneurial. So I remember I was like five, standing on a milk crate, bringing people up. So it was kind of. Yeah, there was just. There's responsibility, there's the family counting on you. There's an education is the way. So being Palestinian, we were displaced. So when you're displaced, nobody really, it's hard to find a home. And what ends up happening is you kind of. You don't have time to complain. You just gotta toughen up, you gotta work hard, you gotta. And education, education is one of those keys to have that maybe you can get some sort of freedom through education, through learning, through achieving something.

Yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense. I've heard that as well from other larger families. And what about any kind of religion that you had early on that informed you with your mother being Polish? You know, when I think of Poles in Chicago and I had a number of Polish friends, lot of Catholic traditions there. So did you have a mixed religious upbringing or was it. Maybe you can tell us a little bit more about how that was for you and if it was actually religious or spiritual, what did you experience as a child?

Yeah, so my dad was really not practicing. Like, you're not supposed to drink alcohol. You're not supposed to. There's a. And he drank like he, he wasn't a practicing. I don't know how much he even believed and he met my mom. My mom grew up. She was very sheltered. Now you have the Palestinian side that has a bunch of kids, and then you have the Polish side that you have two kids. That's it. So my grandfather, rest his soul, he had two kids, and that was two girls. Okay, we're done. We're not going to try for a boy. So that's my mom's side. So he sent his daughters to Catholic school. It's the Polish thing to do. No, no dating, no going out until you're. You're an adult. She became an adult and met my dad. They fell in love. And my. She wanted to know my dad wasn't practicing, but she really wanted to know, like, what is this Islam thing about? Like, she didn't really know much about it. And she met one of his relatives who came to visit, and he gave her some books, and she read them, and she started reading more and reading more. And then she just fell into it. Like, she became Muslim. She, she, she started. She puts on the headscarf, and she's asking my dad how to pray, and he's like, the first time, he's like, no, no, no, don't. You're, you're, you're not ready, right? Don't, don't become Muslim. Like, you're not ready for it. And she had to keep asking him till he's finally like, all right, fine. And I think by him seeing her practicing when this is something he kind of grew up with, I think that really, that shifted him. So then he started to practice, and he started giving up some of his bad habits. And, And I think having a parent that became a faith, not because it was just part of the culture, but because they were convinced, I think that really put me a little bit ahead. My mom used to have a lot of conversations with me. She would talk to me about God. I remember early on, I'd always think about God. I still remember, you know, how sometimes you remember those memories when you were young, just very. Like, I remember I was 5 years old in an elevator, and I remember asking my mom what I thought was a very serious question. Hey, mom, does God have teeth? And the people in the elevator were, like, chuckling, kind of laughing, oh, that's cute, Whatever. But to me, I'm like, no, I just want to know if he has teeth or not. Like, I thought it was a. So I, I, I, I. So what I feel like was instilled in me is this constant, this constant belief that God is there, there is a higher power surrounding us. So, of course, I think we all go through our journey. We go through. I remember when I was younger, I would read religious books. I remember being 15, 16, debating. So in Fossproof Florida, everybody basically, if you're not Christian, you're going to hell. So I was told I was going to hell. So often I was told how bad I was. This probably is why I did functional medicine, because I'm. Because I'm being told that what your belief is, is evil. But inside my house, like behind the walls, we're being taught, take care of people, take care of your neighbor. It doesn't matter what their religion is like. So we're hearing one thing, but then we're hearing from other people. I'm hearing from other people something different. And I think that opened up my mind to, like, listen. There's a lot of perceptions out of there, and you can't just believe things at face value. You have to study them.

That could be challenging. I bet that that was a little bit. You know, it sounds like when you were pretty close with your mother, having these engaging philosophical conversations, and it started to become a part of you, and so much so that you started to live more, I would say, within the religious tradition and abide by a lot of the texts and the belief system. Right. And then you're confronted maybe with kids at school who are kind of showing that you're different and disparaging that.

Yeah, that make fun of you. My mom wore a headscarf, so they made fun of that. They made fun of the kind of car we drove. They made fun of. So high school can be. Especially back then, it may be getting better, I'm not sure. But high school and elementary school can be tough. You want to fit in. You have. I mean, there was me, there was a Jewish kid who kind of faced a very similar. We were the only two non Christians in the whole school. So. So. So, yeah, I think it was a bit challenging, but I think what it also did is help shape my beliefs and help me, like, really, you know, it's hard because you want to fit in so bad. And it. I think it was. It was a slow transition to not being ashamed of who you are and of your beliefs. And like I said, I really think that that opened me up to be doing functional medicine. And the fact. So now I have this conventional medicine side that is saying there's nothing to natural medicine. There's nothing to any of this. It's hocus pocus. This is real medicine. But now, you know what your cousin just told Me that I'm evil and I'm going to hell. Right. So that, that I, that I want the destruction of all of you. Like, so, so. And I know that's not true, so let me challenge this a little bit. And I think that opened me up to challenge it and to look deeper.

Yeah. Oh, that's. I really like how that you turned that into something that was beneficial for you personally. What do you think was your coping strategy as a teenager when you were going through these conflicting views? Did you try to find common ground or did you feel like, did you go from, you know, kind of embracing Islamic tradition and beliefs into saying, okay, I could see where they're coming from on this. Like, this could be our common ground. Like, did you try to find, like, how to relate to them that went beyond the religion?

You know, it really depended on the crowd. So some crowds, you could be open. So I had some close friends that I could talk to and they knew about the religion and they knew about our beliefs, and that was, that was something that we could do kind of on a one, on one level. But, um, but when it came to like a larger crowd, you just kind of hide, be quiet and don't say anything. It's. It's one of those, you're either cool or you're not. And I wasn't part of the cool club, so I just got to be quiet.

Yeah. And so fast forward now to your 20s and, you know, you're going through med school and your late 20s, 30s, and now you have a clinic. How did your sense of being connected to your religion start to percolate on into your practice, if at all? Like, did you start to, to bring spiritual health into the conversation with your patients? Because that was one of the things that really turned you on at the AFMCP was you started to see like, wow, functional medicine embraces spiritual health as part of the matrix. So how did you as a religious person from a very young age now, start to bring that into your practice, if at all? Did you find some neutral talking points?

Well, first of all, I've went through my doubt and I went through a couple of eras where I didn't know what I believed. And I had to just like evidence based medicine. I needed evidence based faith as well. So it. I really went through this journey of, number one, debating my friends shout out to all of the Seventh Day Adventists, because they're the ones that actually will debate you. Other people don't even want to debate or talk because I learned so much about the Bible. And I learned so much about my own faith from the debates, right? But as I started to get older and I think, I hope wiser, I started realizing debating isn't like the real way. It's. There is a, there, there is, there is religion which is like rules and regulations, but there is a spirit that, that can come out of it if you're doing it properly. And that is better than any type of words, right? It's were that being said, I had to find is do I believe in this religion or not? Or is it just Muslims are born Muslim, Christians are born Christian, Jewish people born Jewish. And if you go to ifm, you end up just being spiritual. So like what's happening here? Like how, what's going on? So, so first of all, like it was. I, I looked into some of the scientific stuff and I'll just talk about Islam, right? So from an Islam point of view, we, we have evidence that the Quran was, which is over 1400 years old, hasn't been changed. How has it not been changed? Well, because it was memorized, it's in rhythm. It's, it was, it's recited. And it doesn't matter where you're at. Like you can go to Ocala, you can go to China, you can go, you got people, regardless of whether they knew Arabic or not, they have it memorized word for word with the rhythm and not even the rhythm with the accent. So the preservation of the text is a big thing because if people are changing the religion and a whole bunch of people are writing things, then, then, I mean that then how do you even know what to believe? The other thing was the scientific miracles. So there is in the Quran, I remember when I took embryology, Keith Moore, a giant in embryology, puts in his book that there is that, that there was very little advancement embryology in the Middle ages, except when it comes to Islam because the Quran mentions all these stages of development and all these. So he kind of. I'm reading in my medical textbook from this world renowned Canadian embryologist who's really, he, he's, he's, he actually is one of the pioneers to, in applied embryology. And now he's writing these things that there's no way they would have known this, right? The Quran mentions that we are born of nothing, right? God made us from nothing. Then the Quran also mentions that God made everything living from water. And then the Quran also mentions that at one time, do you not see that the universe was fused together and then God separated it and it's separating. It's Spreading as we speak. And there's a place where it says, do you see that the God made earth smooth? And then if you look at smooth, the word they used is the word for an ostrich, eggs. So. And then you hear about these early Islamic researchers, these pioneers that believed that the universe was spherical based on the way they read the Quran. And then the other piece was. So there's. I can go on and on about these things that just, you know what, you can come up with reasons why, but, but it was against what people believed back then. I mean, the Quran, when it talks about things coming from the sky, it talks about rain coming from the sky, it talks about revelation coming from up on high. And then it talks about iron coming from. From, from up on high. And then you look into it and you're like, hold on. Iron was not part of Earth's original, like, structure. It was actually meteorites that came to Earth and created iron. So, so those things kind of for my scientific brain, really were my anchor. Like, that was at my first anchor. But as I started to dig deeper into it and I, if I, and I, and you start getting the experiential, I realized the profound effect that it had on me. And it had on me as a, not only as a person, but as a, as a healer, as a father, and, and what it did for our family, then you see that as well. And then even the Quran, like, the Quran, when you are what we are all taught, regardless of your language, what language you speak, you're reading it and you're learning it in the original language with the accent. And when you do that, the, the. It's a recitation and you're hitting chakras, man. You're like, you're, you're, you're stimulating the vagal nerve to where you just have a session where you're reading it. These slow breath and it just kind of brings you, like it completely changes your state. So, so, so I guess to answer your question, like, there was. I've went through, I went through a time where I just said, okay, I'm not gonna. Well, I don't know what to believe. It gets confusing because I'm a people pleaser. You talk to one person, you talk to another person, and, well, that sounds, that makes sense. That makes sense. I want to see everybody's point of view while I'm playing devil's advocate and not pissing too many people off and, and, and kind of figuring out what I believe. And I remember one time I said, you know what? I I'm just gonna pray my five prayers a day and not think about it. And I'm just gonna do it. Experiment. I did it for about a week and then all of a sudden it's just the faith comes back. So, so, so I know I can't remember the original question, but I, but there, there are various, there have been various reasons to get to where I, where I'm at. Oh, the other thing too is when you translate Islamic terms. So for example, a Muslim, so all of the prophets, all of these great people that may have been prophets, Islam says they're Muslim, right? So what is a Muslim? A Muslim is you put mu in Arabic before an action so to know to, to be the doer of that action. So a Muslim just means literally one who submits or who surrenders. And then understanding what surrender means, and understanding what surrender actually means, it's not. I think the problem with surrender and submit that people have is you think of it in our context where slaves were like, they were made to submit and they were surrender, where there's fear happening, where in Islam it's this loving surrender. And what surrendering really means is you're assigning responsibility to who responsibility is due. And what is the responsibility? My outcome. The outcome is not my responsibility, it's God's responsibility. But my responsibility is how I react to the environment and what I do with it. Right? So when I do that, when I realize that there is no wrong decision, there's just a wrong way to make the decision. Right. It's not like I made the wrong decision. That's why my life sucks. It's like, no, the way I went about making my decision was wrong. I don't know if that makes sense. And recognizing that, you know what, it's all in God's hands and that this is all there is. A higher power that created us, that sustained us, that is way dimensions beyond us, that we can't even comprehend his greatness. And now that being that because of that and understanding that's there, I can just. And I understand that he's good. And we have these over 99 attributes, these good attributes of Him. It puts you at peace. It just puts your heart at peace. And the more you start going towards the material realm and the more you're trying to control the world and control the outcomes, the worse off you are. And the more you're like, I'm just going to do the best I can and I'm going to leave God to his what, what he does, which is the outcome that's what surrender is. So, so the, even the term Muslim is one who surrenders. And by that definition, someone who surrenders to higher power over their own is a Muslim.

That is, I'm feeling your passion, by the way, and I'm learning as well. Even though I've taken a lot of world religions and I have a lot of friends who are of different religions, it's always interesting to see people's lens into it. And I really like what you're saying about one who surrenders because it makes me think of, let's draw it to science about how people with faith and with some degree of religiosity actually fare better in different outcomes. In fact, I just happen to be looking at some data showing that they have less chronic disease. I think it's 30 to 40% less chronic disease. They have a better sense of community. And I would say, say that what you're saying about surrendering the outcome so that you don't feel all the guilt and the shame and the fear around having a condition. So I'm wondering if you can put together what you said about being a Muslim with health outcomes and how surrendering can actually help you to have better health.

Yeah, like you said, so one of the center of the matrix is your psychological, spiritual, emotional state. And when people have these limiting beliefs and these beliefs, these beliefs and these. So people are worried about making the wrong decision. Anxiety or they're regretting the past. And what my faith teaches me is that when it comes to the past, when you do wrong, when you knowingly do wrong, you repent for it. If you do wrong, you get a black spot on your heart. Because we believe that there's a spiritual heart, connect it to our physical heart. There's a spiritual heart. You get a black spot on your heart. And if you, if you repent for gets washed away. And, and, and, but if you, if you know something's wrong and you persist in it, your heart becomes sealed. And when your heart becomes sealed, the biggest symptom is justifying our actions. And you'll see people justifying wrong things all the time surrounding us. Look at the state the world is in and they're justifying their actions. It's okay to kill these people because it's okay to do this, because it's okay to cheat the system, because. And when you're justifying your actions, you're sealing your heart. And that's the symptom of it. And we believe that the spiritual heart is a mirror of God's attributes. So if we can cleanse it. Then what ends up happening is we get to a point where you can see those people. You can see those people that cleanse their heart, that are constantly cleansing their heart. And you see God in them. It's like you see the reflection of God in them because they're living those attributes. All merciful, all forgiving, all caring, right? Most just. And so from a patient point of view, man, stress, worry, news or so what we're. Our belief is that you worship. Our whole purpose is to worship God even though, even though we don't have to, right? The animals worship God because they kind of follow. They follow instinct. All creation worships God except mankind. We have the ability to worship or to not to work, not worship. And when we worship God out of our own free will, that's just something beautiful. Like that's something. And worshiping God is whatever. As you're navigating through earth, you're living his attributes and you're surrendering and realizing that no matter how much I accomplish and how far I go, don't get arrogant. It's God's will. And God allowed us. He allowed us the originator of the heavens and earth, the sustainer of the heavens and earth. It's all a blessing from him. And actually, when you dig deep in the Quran, the real, like the real purpose, if you go deep, deep, like there's a part where we believe in the. A being called the gin Jinn are. They're. They're in another. They're in another dimension and they can go into our dimension as well, right? So it's. We can see them sometimes, but usually they're hidden from us. But they can see us, right? So it's another, it's. It's another creation. And we believe in Satan and we believe that Satan is a. Of that he was of. He wasn't an angel because angels, we don't believe do anything wrong. But he was a jinn and he was one of the most worshiping jinn in the universe. And because of arrogance and because of thinking he's better than others, he was. That's what made him fall, right? That's what made him turn against God and the arrogance. And then what he says is he asks God to give him respite till the day of judgment so that he can take as many humans as he can because he got jealous of mankind. So I want to take as many as I can. And this is the interesting thing. God gives him respite. And he says this, he says, I will come to Them from the front, from the back, from the right, from the left. And then he mentions what his main objective is. He goes, you will find that most of them are ungrateful. So the purpose, to not be like him, to not be like who was on the best path and then became the lowest of low. Spiritually, we number one, stay humble. No matter how much you learn or how much you know, stay humble. And number two, be grateful. And then another place in the Quran it says, we created you and we gave you sight, hearing and an intellect so that you may be grateful. And I think gratitude is the key. Gratitude and humbleness are the two things to strive for. And if you have gratitude and if you have humbleness, it pushes out all of those negative emotions that are causing our patients to be sick.

And we even see the science of humility and gratitude and how important that is for our state of well being. So thank you for mentioning those too. What about you mentioned about worshiping God, how do you do that? What is your daily practice or weekly practice? How do you do that?

Okay, so this is, so there's the outer religion and then there's what's happening on the inside, the spiritual side. And we believe that there is a spiritual parallel to the physical things, right? So there is. We as Muslims, we pray five prayers a day. So you wake up in the morning, it's a set ritual prayer. You, we fast the month of Ramadan. You don't eat, you don't drink, you don't get angry. Like you fight those animal instincts. And then at nighttime you can eat and drink. All the people that have Muslim friends know, or people that are Muslim know. So you follow those outer. You have zakat. Zakat means purification. That's where you take 2.5% of your wealth and you are giving part of it away, right? You're giving it away to charity, not asking for anything in return. And the reason it's called zakat or purification justification is because your money can corrupt you. And the way to purify it is you need to get rid of some of it. So it does so. So it's in your hand and not your heart, right? So we have those things that we do, but the real worship is where we go beyond the prescription. Because there's a, there's a saying of the Prophet Muhammad where God says, he talks about, he talks about how he will declare war on anybody that goes against a servant of his. And then he goes, and my servant gets closer to me with the prescribed, the things that they have to do. And then he continues to get closer to me with the extra until I become the hand with which he strikes the eye with which he sees the feet with which he walks. Anything he wants, I'd give it to him. And what it's talking about, first of all, I just want to be clear. So there is a type of love. So there is a type of love called Rahmah love, a mercy kind of love that God has for everything, everybody. But there's a special type of love called hub love that is the highest level of love that God has for those people that are walking in the path that are listening to their moral compass and that they are that and they are connecting like they are, they are humble and they are. When they see the truth, they follow it. That's a special, special type and that's what he's talking about. And now let's go back to. Why is it that he talks about the extras? Well, I can tell you this. I would not fast for a whole month if it wasn't prescribed upon me, maybe a day and say, whoa, that was hard. Right? But I wouldn't. Right. There is a limited prescription just to keep us holding on spiritually. The five prayers a day, I can knock that out in three minutes, man. There's a physical thing. Knock it out, okay, I'm done. Right? But the extras is where you pray more, where you sit and you do some extra reflections. It's when you inter, when, when everything you see is reminding you of the Creator. It's when you're reading, when you're looking at the world and you're reading it with a filter of in the name of your Lord who created this, was all created when you do that. The reason we do that is out of love. And when we are created, reaching and, and, and, and it's kind of like put your money where your mouth is, right? You don't. If you are, if you are now reaching out to God and I'm not just going to do the bare minimum, I'm going beyond because I love you, then the love he gives you is all encompassing and even more. And then you become one with him in mission. And that's where you know there's other scripture that say that God created us in him, his image. We don't believe he's a man in the sky with teeth. So I'm a five year old me. No, he doesn't have teeth. As far as I know, there's no teeth. Right. He's the power and the sustainer of the universe. That is not limited by time. Who's not limited by space? Like, when people say the universe gave it to me, I'm like, yeah, bud, yeah, my donkey gave it to me. Like, what do you mean the universe gave it to me? Right? Because it's the universe's creation. And I don't want to dismiss people because I know what I. I don't mean to, like, talk bad about people, but I know what they mean by the universe. Right? But really, if you think of it logically, what did the universe give me? No, it's the creator and sustainer of the universe that gave it to me. But the, the goal is. So for me, worshiping is sitting and making vicar. Vicar is where you're remembering God. So I'll sit and I'll say, I'll finish like the ritual prayer, which is using body, body, mind and soul. You first wash, which is. It's a spiritual cleansing and a physical cleansing. And then you sit and you face. Everyone's facing the same direction. And then you take your hands and you push them behind you and like you're swimming into the spiritual realm. You're pushing yourself back and you say, God is greater than anything I can think of. Business, family, patience. God is greater, right? And then you recite and then you do these bowings and then you finish and you say, peace be upon you, these people on the right, Peace be upon you, those on the left. Because you were with God and now you're coming back. But then you do the extras. So the extras is vicar, which is remembrance, where you sit and you think of something God gave my family. Thank you, God. You think of everything that you have. My eyes, my nose, my teeth, my. Thank you, God. Thank you, God. Thank you, God. That's part of it. And you kind of are chanting while you're doing it, or you're reciting the Quran or you're so. Or actually worship. When you're driving in the middle of the night and there is a branch in the road and nobody can see and you can drive around that branch or you can stop your car and you go grab that branch and you move it. Grabbing that branch is one of the biggest worships you can do because that's not for anybody. When you pray, when you get up in the middle of the night to worship God to pray and nobody ever hears about it and nobody knows about it the last third of the night, the Bible mentions it. Like the New Testament mentions Jesus doing it all the time, right? That was his thing, right? That's worshiping God. So that's the answer to what? Worshiping God. Me taking care of my patient and me giving them fulfilling, giving them mercy, compassion, and just trying my best to transfer some healing energy to them. That's worshiping God. And I've never talked about this stuff publicly. Look at you. You get me out of this.

I love it. And you're obviously. You know, one of the things that I'm taking away from talking with you is that you're not just speaking it, you really embody it. This is something that is so much a part of your life. It is who you are, and I'm so glad that you're letting it come out. Yusuf, there is one thing that you said that is making me think a little bit more with respect to what you said about worshiping. And it kind of comes from me being raised Catholic, too. We see it in many different faiths where there is a cleansing, purification, withdrawal. We see this in different texts. We even talk about in functional medicine. We call it detox or detoxification. What is your take on that? You mentioned Ramadan. So, you know, just having this abstinence, this pulling away from the physical body or the physical reality or the environment. Why is that so important for you personally?

All right, so let's just take fasting, for example, right? So fasting, like, for the longest time, like, why man hungry, right? This is hard. Why is. Why do we have to fast? This doesn't make sense, right? And, and, and as you start to learn from just from a physical point of view, like, we are, we are. We know that it can increase stem cells, that we know that it increases CERT one. We know that there are so many things that, that dry fasting actually can burn fat more than. More than wet fasting in some regards, if it's done right. So you learn the physical benefit. The immune system gets better. It'. Whatever. It's getting rid of toxins, it's getting rid of all the food, because to some extent, too much food is a toxin tube. But then there's the spiritual. There's the deeper benefit, there's the psychological benefit. So as human beings, we have animal instincts that are built in us to protect ourselves. Why do we want to eat? Why do we want to drink? Why do we want to. It's all to protect us. If we don't eat or drink, we die. If you don't have sex, then the species dies. So we have these animal instincts built in us. But what makes us different than animals is that an anim is able, follows their instinct. Where a human being does not, they have the ability to overcome those animal instincts. And people talk about, like, worshiping more than one God. But like, there in Islam, there's a part. One of the things that you can worship besides God is your desires, your intellect. So when I am fasting, not only am I realizing there are people in the world that don't have access to food, and it gives me more empathy towards them, which gives me more compassion for them, what makes me try to help them more. Not only that, but when I want to eat and I can eat and I don't, and when I want to drink and I don't, I no longer become a slave to food or to my animal desires. And it, and, and, and it's hard. It's not like. So people think, like, spiritually, you just, you just fast and then, oh, Zen, no, sometimes you got to work hard for it. It's hard. Your. Everything in you, your brain is going to tell you, no, eat. This is stupid. Come on, stop it. You got these other people that are spiritual. They're good people, and I'm sure they're going to heaven. They're not fasting. Like, so your brain tries its best to like, hey, buddy. And what we believe, from an Islamic point of view, it's called your nephs, like your animal instinct. And your soul needs to conquer your animal instinct. And one of the biggest ways you can tell if it's conquered, go sit in a corner by yourself without a phone, without a book, and see how you feel. If you're like, I got to do this, I got to do that, I got to do that. You got work to do. So fasting is not only purifying your body and making your body healthier, it purifies your psychological, spiritual state. And from a psychological point of view, it really helps us fight against addiction. That animal instinct that says, go eat, go drink. No, I realized that, no, I don't have to. For a whole month, from sunrise to sunset, I didn't eat or drink anything. And it helps us feel. When you're fasting, you can't fast and then go start cursing, right? So when you're fasting, in an Islamic fast, you're constantly repenting. And repenting is you're feeling remorse for what you did, you're making the intention of never doing it again. I mean, that's what repenting is. But if I, I'm sorry, and I know I'm going to do it tomorrow, that's not a real repentance. And then there's A last thing, that if I've wronged somebody, I do my best to try to make it right. Now I'm becoming an overall better person. And now I'm fasting. Now I spent all day not eating and drinking. I'm not going to go waste it and do something dumb, right? So it kind of gives us that huge spiritual recharge. So people think that. And unfortunately, some people use Ramadan as just a way to eat fancy food at night. They think it's just about eating. Eating is such a low, primitive level. There is such a deeper, higher level when it comes to fasting, to where you get a spiritual and like not only a physical but a spiritual detox that happens.

That is, I, I would so agree just based on what I've seen with people going through functional medicine detoxes. You know, I'm just wondering just for us to zoom out into the macro of the world that we live in. Because if you look at functional medicine and even science, there's a trend towards all of these different fasting approaches. And many times I think whatever is trending is telling us not just about our physical connection to the environment or to our bodies, but maybe it's a call for something bigger and greater and more spiritual and a release from being shackled by a lot of our addictive nature. Or again, just like you said, the more primal aspects which we try to better rein in. Do you think that all of this talk of fasting, mimicking diets, intermittent fasting, time restricted feeding on the overall sphere? Because I would say about 15 years ago this wasn't so popular. Is it a call for greater societal, spiritual connection?

Really hope it is. And I think to some people it is. But I think like I mentioned, there is a spiritual parallel to everything we do, but sometimes we just go through the physical motions and we don't get the spiritual. And I would hope that people would pair the intermittent fasting with the, with the being able to feel your feelings and not trying to suppress them and changing one addiction for the other. So I think that using it, you could use it as an opportunity to heal the spiritual as well. But I'm not sure everybody does it that way or thinks of it that way. Sometimes it's just a fad and sometimes it's the science catching up with ancient wisdom. Because fasting, I grew up hearing fasting is bad for you. And we're like, no, no, it's not. I swear, my kids fat. Like, you know, we don't, we don't grow up, we don't teach our kids, hey, you better fast. The kids are wanting to be like us and then they, oh, I'm gonna do a half day. You're like, are you sure you're ready? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So by the time they're like 7, 8, 9, they're fasting.

And there are studies on people that are going through Ramadan and showing improvements in lipids and metabolic biomarkers. So, you know, it's again, it's one of those things that I think crosses the line between science and spirituality is this need to cleanse because it's an ancient practice. So I'm glad that you mentioned that. You know, I'm just reflecting on your upbringing and kind of the struggles that you had even kind of coming into your own with your own religion. And I'm just wondering because it feels so counterintuitive and it's kind of perhaps a trite question, but I want to hear your take on it. How is it that something so well intentioned like religion, all of the things that you mentioned, humility, gratitude, being in the image of God and serving others and doing things without the intent to get something back, you know, all of this that you're describing, we see in other religions. So why is it that in so many areas of the world where there are certain religions we see so much strife, war, combative behavior? I mean it seems antithetical to what the religions are all supposed to be cultivating. So how does religion create this sense of destruction? You know, how does this even happen? What's your philosophical take?

So if there was no religion on earth, they would still be fighting and killing in strife. Anything that is a powerful tool is also a dangerous weapon if used wrong. So if religion didn't couldn't push you in one direction or the other, then it's, what is it? It's not, it isn't powerful. But religion is powerful. We believe that your nephs, your physical, you have your soul and your soul needs to get in your nephs or your animal instinct under control. And we have these tendencies and one of our tendency, one of the tendencies people can get is like a cattle like grazing. So the, the it's called the behemoths cattle like grazing is you get your joy from eating and drinking and having sex. And then some people, they, the love and connection, that's all that's where they get it from and that's it. Right? And some people actually will have a predatory nephs, like predatory animals and that they get it from, they get, they try to fill their Heart with this predatory, conquering, taking advantage of. And then what happens is you have those, those predatory people that want to. That we know this like in psychology, we know that if you push competition, you start losing love and connection, right? It has to be balanced. But when they're all about the predatory and when they, when they lose their morals and when they're able to lie and when they're able to say whatever it takes because they are worshiping their desires, they're worshiping what they want, they're worship. And what ends up happening is they manipulate the masses. And they manipulate the masses to thinking your religion is telling you to do this. Like, for example, why is it that in Islam dying, standing up to a martyr or standing up to an oppressor is like going right to heaven? Why? Because our job is to conquer our animal desires. And then so my animal desires say, run away that guy. That's an oppressor. Right away, don't. But if you stand up to them for justice, then what happens is, is that now you've conquered those desires. That's what fasting is doing. You've caught, you're conquering those desires. So what ends up happening is, is that people will use that and they will, they'll use it to manipulate other people. And there's like a poor, what I believe is a poor understanding of religion in general because when it just becomes something cultural that people are doing and because so many people, I'm sure you saw this in the Catholic faith, people are doing it. They care about what other people say, oh, we got to go to church. Because what's going to happen if the, if the family can't, if, if, if XYZ family doesn't see that we're in church, right? Or we're in the mosque, or we're. So when it becomes just a cultural thing. So what I see from a rel. What religion is, I think that religion has a bottom low level of just going through the motions that is great to educate children, right? This is good, this is bad. This is heaven, this is hell, right? This is, it's very kind of black and white. The problem is, is people grow up and they turn 50, 60, 70, 80, 90. And that's their same understanding when what the religions really have in them, they have this deep spiritual peace that is like, like I'll tell you the principle. The principle. No bad ever befalls a believer, right? No bad. Everything that's done is done for you. Either it's the making you stronger, making you, getting you closer to God. Or it is, or it is, or it is benefiting you. There are so many, so many reframings in religion. And then there's also like, if you look at Islam, they talk so much about, about how do you help your neighbors. Like if your neighbor smells your food, you got to get them some food. Like, you got to give them some of it. You gotta. Or you want to give them some of it. Take care of your neighbors. And it goes to like 50, 50 houses away, neighbors to where some of the companions of the prophet, peace be upon him, they actually thought one day he'd say, your neighbors are going to inherit your wealth. Because he talked so much about it and it had no religion didn't really play a role in it. So I think, I think to answer your question, you can make anything ugly. And I could take a chainsaw that is great to chop down a tree, but you put it on someone's leg, you're going to hurt them. Right. And I think it's just a misuse of a powerful thing.

Mm, yeah. Thank you. You're bringing out the nuance, right? It's not just a binary way to look at life. There's a lot, there's a spectrum in between of what we do with that information.

So one of my Islamic teachers, his whole, by the way, he has a PhD in quantum physics. His whole thing, the whole thing he keeps reiterating is that anything you learn, anything you study, anything that you're, you're trying to embody, you have to think of it on yourself. Don't think, oh, my wife does that. I need to go tell her, oh, I know someone that does that. You think, how is this applying to me? How do I use this to purify myself? I'm going to assume that everyone else is better, right? And I'm going and, and focus on me. And then hopefully they'll get benefit just from being around me. And I think like, that's what. When people take religion kind of from a more superficial level, it's. And they don't have a strong foundation. They don't really know what they believe. They don't really. They change it. You know what? I like this part, so I'm going to keep it. I don't like this part, so I'm just going to get rid of it. No scientific rigor. No, no, just when it's just wishy washy, then you pretty much worship your desires and you can be moved all over the place. Like.

And I think that there's a way to do that. Without shame or guilt. Because we think about, you know, using again, religion in such a way to evoke fear or to force people into doing certain things, right? Like we could take a lesson, an exchange with another person and say, okay, how is this mirroring something that I can improve upon rather than just again get mired into like, oh, you know, I'm such a bad person, you know, because we don't want to just create more of that negativity, right? We want to work to overcome and to do that in a healthy way. Because I think otherwise. You know, that's why there's a phrase, Catholic guilt. You know, like you go and you say your sins to the priest and you know, there's a constant feeling of like, you're dirty, you're unclean. And I think that there's a piece of that, but how do we not turn it into something that is self deprecating and something that can be empowering?

So we're taught in Islam, we're taught that nobody is. That you cannot think you're better than anyone based on, based on their race or their status. The only way that you can be better than anyone is closeness to God. And only God knows who's closer to him. So there is a built in the religion. Although, yes, people use it for show shame and guilt and religious trauma is very real across all religions. Unfortunately, people use that powerful tool to manipulate right. Others. But that's. That was like one of my teachers, what he pushed. Stop using it for this shame and guilt, people. Because here's the thing. So for the primitive mind, for the primitive, for the, for the, the childlike religion, heaven bad, heaven good, hell bad. I don't want to go to hell. I want to go to heaven. But the more you get into it, the reality is, is that what you want is closeness to our higher power. And that's better than any. That's better than the deterrence, and that's better than heaven. So there are many Muslims that are like, all I want is to just get in his presence. And then we're taught there's three in your, you, you, Deanna, in your world, there are three players. There's you, there's the life of this world, and there's God. If you take the life of this world out of your heart, you've connected with God.

Back to the surrender piece, right? Well, I want to. This has been transformative more than I ever imagined it would be. And I really appreciate you going into such depth. I feel like goodness. You know, you are a physician and you also have this strong spiritual side to you, and it's such a beautiful blend. You also have a fun side to you that I want to showcase to everybody. You really are fun. Whenever I'm in your presence, you have this feeling of lightness and joy. And so again, back to. To when I first met you, when I saw you lecturing and, you know, just really having fun on the stage teaching through the Star wars metaphors. But one of the things I see you doing now is that you have a ranch. And I really do appreciate when you have videos with animals. I think you had one with owls. You were at night, you were kind of showcasing and, you know, just taking videos of owls. You'll do that with go. And so tell me more about your creative, fun, kind of earthy side where you're not being a doctor and you're not necessarily thinking about, you know, doing your daily spiritual religious practice, but you're. You're just enjoying life with your family. What does that look like?

This is where marrying the right person is helpful, right? My wife is all about outdoors. Like, she made me before we got married. She's like, you need to get me horses. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'll get you horses. Never thought I'd be able to, right? So I would. I'll tell you this. My inner nephs, like, my animal instinct goes towards grazing, goes gav the popcorn, watch tv, play a video game. And having the. The people you surround yourself are with are important because when your wife tells you, hey, I want to get a chicken, it never stops at a chicken. It never stops at a horse. Because now we have multiple horses, and we have many horses, and we have four, like, areas of chickens, and we have mini goats, and it doesn't stop. And, oh, my God, the big red flag is when somebody tells you, hey, I want to start making sourdough bread, because then you know where it's going. So, all joking aside, I could tell you that we do. We have. We do have the farm. And I will push myself to go out there and to be with the animals and to. To. To. To do the chores of the farm with the children and to go to the garden. And when I do, I'm always happy. But my inner tendency is I just want to make PowerPoint presentations about functional medicine that really. I sit and my wife is like, why are you working? I'm like, I'm not working. This is my creative expression. And now with. Now with the. Now with giving myself the commitment of doing one video a day. Like, it's. There's a lot of creative expression happening to where she's like, okay, stop the creative expression. Come help me milk this cow. Wow.

Well, I definitely see that in you. And you have taken this new direction with all of your videos and the reels that you're making. And I noticed that. I was thinking, oh, this is how he's moving his creative expression through, you know, because I could see your very excited you were texting me with all of these reels. And so keep at it, for sure. And what I would say, at least what I really enjoy is I love seeing you being a human being on the farm. And yes, of course, being the physician, the educator, the spiritual person, the wise one. However, there's just something really refreshing about seeing you talking about owls and goats. And it just feels like, so connecting to me. Nature is such a point of connection to the divine. So it just brings that out for me when I see your videos.

Actually, I want to tell you, a lot of Muslims don't even know about this. So there is a. We believe in Islam. We believe that everything is worshiping God in its own way, right? And then. And everything. So we believe the trees and the. The owls and the goats, they're all worshiping God. They're all remembering God. And there is a saying of the prophet Muhammad that says that when you come across the gardens of heaven on earth, graze in them. What are the gardens of heaven on earth? It's the circles of God's remembrance. So when you go out in these communities of animals and insects and trees and they're all worshiping God, and then now you go and you use it to reflect on the greatness of God and to reflect on and to remember him as well. If it's reminding you of that, that's you grazing in the gardens of heaven on Earth.

I like that. I'm going to ask you a fun question. What's your favorite animal? If you had to just, like, spend time with one animal, what would it be?

Oh, that's a tough one. Cats. I like cats, but then they drive me crazy, especially when they don't. I had a ferret, but I can't say a ferret is dogs. I really like dogs. We have four dogs. I think they're very smart and very loyal. My kids, sometimes they act like animals.

I met one of your sons, and you set such a great example for him. He's. He's really a shining light.

What's your favorite animal?

Cats.

Cats. Okay. You want one?

I'm trying to get, you know, like, I can't predict a cat. They're so curious and strange and, you know, they just keep me on my toes. I like dogs, too. I like all animals, really, but I live with a cat, so that. That's my choice.

Our dogs are outside. Our cats are in the house. So. Yeah. And they're unpredictable. And they do not listen. They're not going to listen.

They're surrendering into their own space.

Yeah.

Yousef, anything that we didn't cover that you want to leave is just kind of last words before we come to a close.

No, I, you know, I would just invite everybody to, to really, first of all, let's stop judging each other. Let's think good of each other. And I think to the providers that are doing this, that are helping others, really, what I would encourage you to do is really dig into your own spirituality and your own why. And also, don't get arrogant. Realize that, yes, there are our higher power created, certain laws and rules. And as we are learning, actually part of being a Muslim, you have to believe first in the Quran. It says you got to believe in the ghayb. And the ghayb, is that beyond our perception? So as we start to develop technology that helps us see different pieces of the puzzle. Once you figure those pieces of the puzzle, don't get arrogant. Get humble and just fill your heart with gratitude. Like gratitude, I think, is where it's all at.

Well, those are my takeaways from this conversation with you. The two big principles that are spiritual and scientific, humility and gratitude. We can all have a little bit more of those things, right? Thank you so much for this conversation. It's been a delight and it's. It's been great getting to know you better as an individual and as a friend. So thank you, Yusuf.

My pleasure.