Dealing with Tough Co-Parenting Situations w/ Coach Jay Skibbens

Welcome back to the single Dads podcast, man. Today, super, super excited. We got our brother, Jay Skibbons. If you're on Instagram, you might have seen him. He's doing incredible. Just popping off bro on his content for like, co parenting and helping out single parents, which is phenomenal. And so today's episode is going to be all about co parenting.

Yeah. Honored to have you on, Jay.

No, I was excited like we talked about before and I knew this was going to happen. I've been watching you guys too, so it's. I'm glad be here.

Awesome, man. Well, let's get to it. I'm curious about a few things and I guess first and foremost, I know you come from a background of teaching and being a social worker. So what inspired you to get into coaching?

To be honest, a lot of things happened. Obviously for a lot of us over the summer of 2020, you know, United States was very tumultuous. I was, I had to get on Facebook to promote a dad's group that I was facilitating at that time. And, you know, I was finding that you couldn't say anything on Facebook without jump down your throat. Right. Like you, I think that the grass is green and somebody will come after me. Like, no, it's brown or yellow or something.

And it was just like, yes, dude.

So, but, but what I, what I then became intentional about was like, I just started asking open ended questions and it started simply like, with, you know, like, what was your favorite childhood memory? Or like, what, what makes a good man a good man? Or what does trust mean to you? And it was very different than like the posts I think that other people were seeing. Right?

Definitely.

And what happened, it showed people, like, it created a small community where people were just able to express their opinions and express how they felt instead of arguing. And then I would also see people interacting with each other in the comments. So at that point, I was listening to a bunch of podcasts and some of the podcast hosts were coaches. So I was like, how do I make this into something? How do I do something with this? Because people clearly need this.

Yeah.

So I reached out to, I emailed like two or three podcast hosts. It took two months for the first one to get back to me. We set up a zoom call for her and I to talk. She was like, you know, I'll talk to you about what I do, but I don't really help people get started. So I've got a friend who helps people get started. She hooked me up with her friend. I got certified as A coach at the end of 2020. And then, I mean, to be fair, that's, you know, it kind of was born out of that. Just, it was, it was just so clear how much people, like we talked about beforehand that people just need to be heard. People need to be heard. And I wanted to give that to people.

That's awesome, bro.

Very cool. Well, let's dive into some co parenting topics. I'll call them that.

People.

I know a lot of our listeners talk about co parenting issues. What is the most. Or I guess, let me rephrase that. What. What is the most unique issue that you have come across dealing with, you know, clients. You don't have to bring any names in it, obviously, but what's the most unique scenario or like, wow situation that you've had to. To kind of coach someone on?

You know, it's surprising. When you say unique, I'm guessing you mean like something along the lines of surprising or I don't hear about it. I've heard this one, but not very many others.

Like a good plot twist, bro. Yeah.

That threw you back a bit.

I mean, to be fair, nobody has been able to top my story yet. So I feel like that's. That's where I think the crazy thing is just how once you get into this sector, into this community of people, you find out how common everything is. It's just not talked about. I think I would honestly be hard pressed to tell you a story of somebody who had something so crazy, because sometimes it's one of the parents just disappears or one of the parents moves across the country or that like, I can't even think of a crazy story. Because to be fair, there. There's not that much variance between how people can get along or not get along. I haven't, I honestly haven't come across anything more crazy than mine. And mine is like, the shortest version is that I'm raising kids that aren't biologically mine. So it's like, I know that that's something that happens.

Okay, I want to ask you this, bro, because your profile literally says not a biolo dad or a non biological single. And I was like, how does this work? And I've been wanting to ask you that. So tell me, how does that work?

Okay, so I mean the long version of the short version because.

Medium version.

Okay, well, because I, you know, I'm 33 now. When I was like 24, 25, I met a woman. And at that point I wasn't, I wasn't dating. I wasn't trying to Be anybody. I graduated college. I didn't really have a plan for life. Working in a daycare and at a restaurant. We started basically just hooking up. Like, it was a very. It was a very clear friends with benefits situation. And honestly, it carried on for about a year. And then she told me she was pregnant and that, you know, I don't know how it is for other people, but that was not my plan. And I thought life was over. Like, I thought I screwed everything up. I thought, like, this was the worst thing I could have done and. But, like, you know, I grew up without my dad, so. And I had always wanted to be a dad, so I. I knew I was gonna be there. Like, I knew I was gonna. Like, even though I didn't love it, even though I didn't, this was how I planned it. Like, it took me about two weeks of, like, not telling anybody. I didn't talk to anybody about it. Finally talked to my mom about it. She was, like, shocked, but, like, she's like, hey, it's gonna be. You're gonna be okay. And it was almost like I just needed somebody else to say that to me. Like, hey, you're gonna be okay, bro.

I had a. Not to interrupt you, but I will. I had a. I had a similar situation, obviously. Now I know we're going to go into some other details, especially given that title of non biological father. I feel like there's a twist or something here, but literally, with my girl, I was 18 years old. 18 years old, and we had broken up. And then she says, like, two, three weeks later, I think I'm pregnant. And I was like, huh, that's interesting. What are we going to do about this? And so I tried working things out. Obviously, in my story. I'm going to make an episode one day on my YouTube channel, and I'll send it to you about my story so you can hear more about it. But essentially, yeah, bro, 18 years old. I was like, what the heck's gonna happen now? And I'll never forget, I had an influential voice in my. In my life, which was one of my cousins. First thing she told me, your life is over.

I was like, dang.

What?

I was like, well, thank you. I guess. She was like, your life is over. You ruined everything. You screwed up. And then her husband is like, whoa, hey, hey, hey. His life is not over. It might get a little bit harder. It might look different, but he can still do whatever he wants to do and create how. What he wants to create out of his life. And so it's really cool because it's so true what you just said. You just need that one voice that's like, that's that. That listens and then that tells you everything's going to be okay. Sorry. Keep on going.

I'm interested. Keep going.

Yeah. So. So, you know, as far as our relationship went, it was very sexually driven. You know, other people fight, other people, like, don't get along. We. Ours was just very sexually toxic. Like, we just couldn't. We were trying to fill our voids that way. And so going from that to trying to parent together, it wasn't even rocky as far as, like, we somehow were able to put the kid first and, like, do things for that. But like, us, we never. We never. We went on a couple of days to try to see if there was something there, but it just. It wasn't there past the sex. So stopping. That was hard. It was hard. And then she got pregnant again, like, very quickly afterwards. My kids are only 15 months apart, so, like, she got pregnant again. And as much as the first one was shock, the second pregnancy was just. It was all anger and like, for me it was like. And I didn't know this at the time, but I was very angry at myself. Like, how can I make this mistake again? Yeah, but we were projected at each other.

So 27 years old at this point.

Yeah. Yeah. So that would have been. Well, no, let's see. He was born in. Yeah, so he was born 2015, so 27.

Okay.

And this is the party. This is like, this is, I think, why people, I think, like me, because I get. I'll tell the embarrassing stuff about myself. It happened again. It. Honestly, she. She got pregnant again. There was like, she got pregnant again. And there's a lot more details. Kind of like what you said, Frank. There's a lot more details. Behind the scenes, I was already questioning things. I was already like, my. Probably a couple of years too late, but some of my senses were starting to go off. And very quickly after that child was born, I got a DNA test and found out that the third child wasn't mine. And then that confirmed all the questions I had during that pregnancy. So to me, it was like I now question everything. Yeah. So then quickly after that, I got my boys tested and they were like, at that point, they were like, you know, two and two and a half and like 15 months, and I found out that neither one of them were mine. So.

Wow.

So, yeah, I mean, at that point I was, I was student teaching. I was trying to get my teacher like, having my first son, like, I went from daycares and restaurants are like, all right, I need a plan. I need to. I need to grow up. I went back to school for two years, was in the last semester before I was. I got a job that following fall as a teacher. So to me, I was like. I was trying to put on my. You know, put my. Put all my ducks in a row, get my life together. I found this out, and it was just like, I've never been divorced, so clearly we were never married. So I don't know what divorce feels like, but to me, like, having somebody.

Frail, man, it was.

Yeah, it was like. Whether it was a malicious lie or a lie by omission or however she thought it through, it was just like a reality, like, shattered. Right. Everything just shattered on what I thought. And it, you know, it hit hard. I don't know how else to say. It just hit hard. Yeah.

That is insane.

So.

So your initial reaction is obviously shock, but after you've had time to absorb this information, what kind of. In your mind were you thinking? Like, you didn't have a lot of time to get to know the third child from. Right, right. But child one and child two, you obviously probably connected with or had some sort of bond with them. Right?

Well, yeah, so the oldest one, especially at that. At that.

I'm sorry.

Sorry. Go ahead.

I was just gonna ask. So what, like. Like, after. After you had time to process all this, what. What were your thoughts? Like, how. How am I going to move forward with these two children that I thought were mine and I bonded with as though they were. What do I do now?

Yeah. Honestly, man, took me. It took me about a day and a half because with my older son, you know, he was a little over two and, like, two and a half, I think, and he was like. I can't describe it any other way. That, like, he was exactly what I thought having a kid was going to be like. I wanted to be a dad. Having him, it was like everything that I thought was going to happen happened. Like, the way that we got along, the way that we bonded, the way that, like, he learned, the way that he, like, developed. It was just like. Nirvana is the word that comes to mind. It was just like, I had it, like, from working with kids my whole life. Like, I had a plan. I had a thought of what it was gonna be like, and he fit everything. It was. It was amazing. So to find out that, you know, he wasn't mind biologically, like, I have an older brother, and I Remember talking to him and like, the. At the end of the conversation, it was just like, I don't. I didn't. Nothing changed. Like, to me, I was dad from day one. Like, I don't. I don't know what. I don't know how it would have changed anything. And to me, it didn't change anything. So the process was, I. I went and we legally got me to be legal father.

Did you find out who biological fathers were?

So at that time, no. Like, this is a lifetime. Like, literally, the channel lifetime needs to come talk to me about making a TV series out of this. But at that time, no, she was very hush about details. She didn't really want to talk about it. I found out more, even just this past year, because being on Instagram, talking about my story, I actually had somebody reach out to me who is an adoption coach. And she was like, hey, like, everybody who I've ever talked to wanted to know that they were adopted. And like, me personally, I've always wanted to tell the boys and be open about it so that, like, it wasn't a shock. Like, I want their identity to be that. I want them to, like, have a healthy identity formation.

Yeah.

With the knowledge of who I am to them.

Yeah. That's really good. That's really, really good. I love that you said that, because most people would, like, shine away from that because it would potentially create conflict. Right. And we have this idea in our minds, right. And you probably deal with this a lot, where we think that families are supposed to be about peace, quiet, happiness, all that stuff. And it's the opposite. Family supposed to be about conflict because conflict provokes growth, and growth creates fulfillment. Right. And so it's like, I love that you said, you know what? This is exactly what I want to. It's kind of like with my situation, like, I had cheated in the marriage, right. And I have always been 100% saying, my daughter will know that I cheated in the marriage because that's me being vulnerable. And if I want them to talk about things that are. That's going to take them being vulnerable with, then I got to step up first. I got to show them what that looks like. I got to show them there's something that I. That. That can carry shame and that we're not proud of. But I'm bringing it up because this is a safe place and create that safe space. Right. And so I love that you looked at it straight in the face and you said, I'm going to address this because it needs to be addressed. And knowing that it can be done in a healthy way because so many people hide it out of fear. And as we were talking earlier on the phone, anything, any move that we make that's based out of scarcity yields a negative result. That's why you see so many kids that later grow up into adults and they have resentment against the parent because. Why don't you just tell me so?

I love that, bro. Yeah, it was, for me, there was like the word. Because my older son is a bit more like, he embraces conflict and he'll be the one that, like, he tries to get mean sometimes. So he's already used the. Well, you're dying with my real dad. In a fight, in an argument. But even last night we were at his taekwondo, he got his new belt and then his mom was there and like, it's cool because we don't do child support, but like, it just has so happened that we just cover each other. We just, we have a very, like, healthy understanding of how the relationship works now. So I've been paying for classes. She came last night, bought all of his, like, sparring gear that he's going to need for his new belt. And like, as the woman is helping him put all this stuff in his bag that he got, he is like, oh, yeah, this is even my real dad. It's like, but you're like, damn it.

Son, keep it down.

But it's like, but that's exactly, exactly what I wanted by telling them, right. I want it to be a normal thing. I want it to be like, I want it to be a healthy connection that like, this. Maybe I'm not the real dad, but I think. And like, bless her heart, she played it perfectly. She was like, yeah, but he's the one who, like, takes care of you and, like, is there every day, right? And he's like, yeah. And I was like, cool. And that's, that's what I wanted it to be just like this. It's just like talking about the weather. It's just like talking about what we're going to eat. It's not this, like, taboo topic that, like, because with me and my mom, with my dad not being around, I never felt like I could talk about that. I never, like, I never asked her about him growing up. And it. Just because it felt off limits.

Yes. Because more than likely out of things that she said, did or how she, her energy towards the situation, it's like, ah, this can't be brought up well, you know.

Yeah, it's a crazy thing because even Last summer was I. I found out the first time. I thought I only met him twice, and it turns out I met him three times. The first time was when I was a baby. She took him to visit him and he was in prison. And she just, like, she casually dropped this at, like, a cookout that we were at. Like, why is it as if it was like, common knowledge? And I was like, wait, what? Like, come again? Like, do you say that one more time? I really do have one of those stories. I realize I do have. Like, I've never felt like one of those, like, a person who has one of these, like, crazy stories until I start talking about it out loud.

You don't have one of these stories. You have the story.

Yes, you do.

Because it's so true. Like, you know, I'm a divorce recovery coach, so I deal with divorced clients. More than half of them have kids. And I have never heard of a co parenting issue that is like this right or not issue situation, but a co parenting situation that is like this. And this is so unique and it speaks so much to your character, honestly, because so many other men could have been like, oh, they're not my kids. I'm free. You see what I'm saying?

And to be honest, that's just in general, being a single dad, people, you know, some people, I should say, like, praise us for doing what we believe we're supposed to do. Being an ad, just being a dad. Yeah. But some people think, oh, wow, I guess, because so many dads do just bounce. But it's kind of funny, this unique situation. We were talking about this last episode, I think as to the fact that there are so many situations now that, like, when we were growing up, especially me, like, it was very taboo, like having two dads or having two moms, like that. These things are not like things that people make fun of kids at school for. Whereas when I was growing up, when your parents got divorced, it was like, you know, somebody just died or, you know, And I know I'm not trying to take anything away from a divorce because it is, you know, a very traumatic situation for many. But my point is, is just, yes, your situation is unique. And I'm going to lie. I'm not going to lie and say it's not entertaining as well. But. But yeah, it does help a lot about your character, man. And. But at the same time, it's like, it's not as taboo as it might have once been, but I have a friend who adopted a child that wasn't his and ended up getting a divorce and she makes. She remarried and some to a multibillionaire and still hounds him for child support for that child that he adopted, which I think is total bs, but they don't listen to this show. But not to get off topic, but another question I had, Jay, was have you had any clients? And I asked this because I've had a few of our listeners that I've corresponded with being a situation where they live with their ex and somehow attempt to co parent while also dating other people. Just curious if that's come across your plate.

So I've had a couple. You know, I would say that that's a much more common occurrence than I would have guessed getting into this. That the people, whether it's the. They haven't sold the house yet or they're not. They haven't completed the divorce yet.

Or financials.

Yeah. Or financials. Is preventing somebody. But even going back to something Frank has said, honestly, most of the time when like they're holding on to something out of fear, like I haven't moved out yet because I'm scared of what it'll look like, or I'm not ready to give up this comfort of having somebody else there. But as far as the dating part, I had one client that was dating while living with somebody else. And it just, it seemed. And I don't want to overgeneralize, but unless it was an incredibly mutual amicable divorce, I just, I have no idea how that could work. Like, there's just. It was messy for that client and it. I don't know how it wouldn't be messy.

Oh, I feel like you're a lot nicer than I am when it comes to coaching, bro. Because I have some clients, bro. I have some clients that I'm like, well, where the hell do you think that's going to get you? Just.

Yeah.

And then I'm like, let's just role play this. Let's just live a little right in our minds. And we walk through it, it's like, it's just not going to end up good. It's just not. And I tell them, I'm like, right. Like, I'm very upfront about it, but I also say it's not right and it's not wrong. It's just different. And it's your choice, Right? So I still give them all. We always give people the freedom to choose. I never tell them what they need to do. I just tell them we need to look at it this way. And then we can look at it this Way. Right. But yeah, bro, because that stuff gets messy real quick whenever there's no. Especially when nobody knows how to establish boundaries. Right. And that is probably knowing your type of work and all my work. That's probably the number one thing. And also getting people to realize that boundaries doesn't mean you're going to do this. No, you're not forcing the other person to do anything. You're just taking your emotional like thermostat, as I like to say, and you're putting it on the inside of you and not leaving it on the outside of you. And that's really all a boundary is. But so many people get into that controlling mindset out of fear, right? Where, oh, I'm going to set a boundary where they have to do this and then they don't do that and then they blow their lid off. You know what I'm saying? So how do you navigate that situation? When I've established a boundary, they're not. Because I've seen you post about it quite a bit when your other co parent isn't doing what you think they should do. Right. And I have my own insight on this, but I want to hear yours. How do you handle that situation?

And we're moving away from like the people living together. Could this be anybody in co parenting?

Anybody? Yeah. And if you want to hit on the people in that are living together, you can. But I think we can all kind.

Of agree that's kind of a general sense.

Yeah. Because in my mind, what there's the fine line is I want you to operate as if they don't exist without like, for lack of better words, like shitting on them. You don't have to like, you don't have to be mean. You don't have to like, act like. You don't have to be rude about it. But if your outcomes are dependent on their behavior, then you're asking to be stressed out. You're asking for disappointment, which leads to resentment, which leads you back to you being the one wasting your own energy. So to me it's like if they're, if they're late, either ask for an earlier time or expect them to be late. Like there are certain control. So you have to change your perception of what's going to happen so that your happiness, your mood, your outcomes aren't based on what they're doing.

Yes, bro, exactly. Scott brought up a situation that someone had messaged him about how some his ex posted a picture with the new boyfriend and the kids and they were like, all in. Like, you Know, biker gear or whatever, right? And like, the dude was, like, losing his cool and he thought that wasn't cool and all this stuff. And, like, what should he do? I was like, well, you can't really do anything besides communicate what you like, hey, I don't agree with this. What do you. And then try and establish some. Something if it's civil, but at the same time, that's not even your place. Like, I'm sorry, bro, that sucks. But it is. It is all about identifying why does it suck? Why is it creating suffering in me, right? And I love walking clients through. Like, I always ask them, I'm like, and why does that hurt? And then I start writing it out and I share the screen and they're like, well, it just made me feel like I da, da da da. And then it made me feel like I da da da. And then when they're done, I write all of them down. I'm like, this is why you're suffering. I circle I every single I. They said. And my. I'm like, you're making that whole situation means something about you, and it doesn't. It doesn't. So as soon as you stop making, it means it's like you said, your perception, like, if you would expect them to be late, like, now you're setting yourself up to win because you're like, oh, I already know they're going to be late. So I'm just going to handle it this way because I expect it. It's like in fighting, right? If your kid gets punched in the face with a right hand by the same fighter over and over and over again, and he never learns to.

His.

Opponent isn't a good fighter. Your kid just didn't have the right defense, and you should expect it coming. So all you have to do is slip. And now I'm unmoved.

That particular situation was the female playing offense. Like, kicking. Kicking him in the beanbag, like, hey, I'm going to do this just to. Yeah, F you.

Yeah.

And that's. That's what it was about. But he did handle it well, and.

Yeah, it worked out.

So, yeah, brother, that's. I love that, man. Because with co parenting, it can get so easy to, like, lose ourselves in it and to, like, lose our cool and just make it all this stuff, like, to add so much stress to your life, and then it just ends up making you not the dad that you want to be or the mom that you want to show up as because you're so consumed with what they're doing or what they're not doing. And really all it is is that the blueprint that we've created in our own mind of how life is supposed to go has now been interrupted by that person. And it's like, what did you do? This is a question I have for you. What did you do when your blueprint got torn to shreds and you had to recreate a new blueprint of what life is supposed to look like?

I mean, which time?

Valid rebuttal.

Even going back to school to become a teacher, I thought that was gonna be my forever career. I thought I was gonna be able to move up, become an assistant princip, the principal thing maybe, like. Because the crazy thing was I even got a job at the junior high that I went to. So it felt like life was coming full circle. Like, my school is, like, 50% minority. So, like, even being a minority myself, I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, this is. This is perfect. I'm gonna make an impact. I'm gonna be somebody in the community. I'm gonna. Like, I had those dreams, like, exactly what you're talking about. That blueprint I had already planned out, like, five, 15 years in the future, and then through again. Like, I don't do anything the traditional way. So even the way I got let go was, like, a culmination of, like, some old MySpace pictures that the kids got their hands on. They started circulating around the school.

Just be honest, at this point. Were you, like, a male stripper or something?

Like, funny enough. Like, one of them was, like, my freshman year of college, and I was dressed up as a Hooters girl. Like, I had a wig on. I had, like, socks. But I was also, like, a cross country runner. So, like, I was as skinny as any woman at the same time. So, like, so they got that one. And I remember just thinking, because one of my students came up and she was like, Mr. Skibbons, I need to show you something. And she had, like, a screenshot of the snap that, like, the kids were passing around. And it was that picture with the caption, like, proof Mr. Skibbons is gay. And I was like, dang. And again, like you said, Scott, it's entertaining. Like, I can laugh at this stuff now because it's like, how did I live this life? Like, how. How am I. How am I that guy?

But a book. You have a book in your future.

But. But even going back to your question of what you do is just. You just. You make the next step. Like, yeah, I could get. I could have got down about a lot of this stuff, but it's okay. I. Especially once I had kids, it was like, I can't do that for long. I can't. I can't stay down here. You know, going from teaching to. I mean, like, I was a teacher's aide, which was a huge step down. And that was not to my ego, but just my, like, my mental health, honestly. Because when you're a teacher, you can kind of do things your way, but when you're the aide, you have to follow their lead. And there were. There's very few teachers that I look up to because I would do it differently than most of the teachers I've come across. So being in that situation was hard on me. And then going into social work, I thought that was going to be better. I was like, oh, I could help people this way. And then you get into that system and you realize it's just another system, education system, social work is a system. And that was the beautiful thing about finding coaching is like, oh, wait, I can do this.

Build your own system.

Yes. Yeah. So honestly, it was how the drive was always, how can I get to a point where I can do it my way? And that's what I found. And it just. It's. It. I officially walked away from my 9 to 5 in December, and I would be checking my bank account every other day when I was there because I thought, you know, I felt like I needed that job to feel safe. I thought I needed that job to keep making it. And then I checked my account to like, to take care of it now instead of like, okay, do I have enough? Can I pay? Can I get groceries? Like, before, I was checking it like a hawk, and now it's like, now I trust that it's that I'm doing the work that it takes to get what I need, bro.

What a great. What a great pivot in life, man.

And. And also because this is something that. This was an awakening moment that I had as well with coaching is I realized I stopped checking the account when I experienced fulfillment because now it was more about, like, man, I'm so obsessed with what I'm doing that I don't. It doesn't matter if there is a lack of Or a overflow. It just didn't matter anymore. It was just like. Like you said, now I'm just checking it to take care of it, to move things around. What's it. Where's this. Where's. It needs to be distributed. But it's not like a survival or a. I need, you know, What I'm saying, because what you're doing is fulfilling. So let's.

Let's.

Let's end off with one last question. You got one last question, brother, before we end, or you want me to ask it? Because I have a good one. If you don't.

I'll let you have it.

Okay, let's go. So last question before we leave, brother. If there is somebody listening right now who feels like their situation is impossible. Right. Clearly now they know that more than likely their situation is not as bad as yours.

That's not as trump card in any coaching conversation I have. Like, oh, you feel bad about this, huh?

Like, okay, boom, check my story. What would you say to that person? That's. That's. But to them, it's valid pain, right? And to them, it sincerely feels like the end of what they thought life would be. What would you say to that person, that single parent?

Good question.

Honestly, that they're right. Like, it is the end of what you thought it was going to be.

I love that.

Yeah. To be. To get to the next spot, you're going to have to move through this thing. Like, you're going to have to allow yourself to create a new vision and find new strategies on how to get you there. Because what you were doing to get you to that spot, clearly it's not working anymore. And that doesn't mean that you failed. That does not mean that you're doing things wrong. You did what you knew how to do to get you where you needed to be, and it got you there. Now you need new stuff and to be like, you know, that's why it's great that there's three men in this call. None of us are doing this alone. I've got, like, a crazy support team. I've had, like, five coaches in the past 14 months. I have people I can count on. I've got a dad's group that I attend regularly. Like, there's no award for doing it alone because nobody does it alone like that. Like, so if you feel like you're down and out, you feel like nobody's gonna know or nobody's gonna understand, tell that to somebody, and I promise you.

Tell it to Jace Givens.

Yeah. As soon as you get those words out that, like, oh, this is so hard. I can't do this. I feel like nobody will understand. That's when you'll make that first step. That's when. That is the first step. That's when you realize that there is a light, that there is a chance, and that it's not impossible. You just. You told yourself it was. So. It was. So as soon as you stop telling yourself that, you've got a shot.

Jay, what would. Great answer. And what would be the best way if somebody wanted to contact you, you. For you to be that person? They tell.

How would they.

What's the best way to contact you? Go ahead and plug yourself.

Right now, I am operating almost purely out of Instagram. So find me at Jaysgibbons and I check that regularly multiple times a day. So I am. That is where I am at for now, and that is where I will be until I grow enough that I need something else. But right now, check me out on Instagram.

Awesome, man. Thank you so much for being a guest on the show, man. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Your story was thoroughly entertaining and very helpful, I think for a lot of folks out there, massive blessing. Genuinely, man, thank you very much for your time. And I hope we can do it again in the not so distant future.

And just let me know. I'll be here.

Yeah, brother. No, for real, thank you so much for coming on the show, man. I just want to say that clearly you're a man of integrity. You're a man of character, and it's incredible to see what you're doing and that you're vulnerable enough to take the risk, to put yourself out there like this, right, to be able to actually help people. And one thing that I know, that I'm sure you know, but I just want to, like, echo it into your life, is that when your heart is set on actually helping the blessings come, whether that is, I actually genuinely want to help my child. I don't want to control them, to mold them to be what I want them to be, but I want to help them develop and grow. Blessings come in business. I want to genuinely help people. Blessings come, right? And so I just want to literally echo that over your life, bro, and say, thank you so much for being another voice, another male figure that steps up and says, I want to help, even if it comes at the scrutiny of some people. Because we get that, bro, especially being on social media. I'm sure you've gotten messages. I've gotten plenty of messages and comments, but it doesn't stop you. And so for that, bro, I commend you. Thank you so much for being a part of the show, bro. Thank you so much for everything that you're doing. I sincerely hope people reach out to you so that you can. You can be a voice in their life for real.

Yeah. Thank you. We will stay in touch, brother.

A lot.

Yes, sir. Alrighty, brother. That's it for the show. We'll catch you guys on the next episode.