2023: Wrap and Roll #64

After all, all art is experience.

Hello and welcome to The Company Doctor. This episode is entitled Wrap and Roll because we're treating it as a wrap of some of the highlights of 2023's episodes and discussing how we can use the lessons learned in those episodes as we roll further into 2024. It's slightly different in that I'm in the driving seat this week, but I'll be quizzing the man with all the answers, the company doctor himself, Gary Gamp.

Hello, Gary.

George, how are you?

Looking good.

Thank you. Thanks very much. Yes, I'm on camera for the first time in a while.

So yeah, what a handsome man you are.

Well, likewise. Thank you. And we've got an episode which we've just come up with a great name for today. Wrap and roll.

What is wrap and roll?

Wrap and roll. Not just the music that I used to play in my, in my old band days. It's also a wrap of 2023. So we're going to be going over some of the episodes and some of the topics covered in the episodes that we did last year. Here, and we're going to roll to the future and look forward to 2024 and what it may hold for everybody from a business and career perspective. How fantastic is that? Sounds pretty good, eh? I don't know which genius came up with the name.

I know, so clever.

Well, I'll launch in because I'm unusually, I'm sort of steering the ship. I love this, by the way.

I'm really enjoying this already.

Yeah, because you can just relax.

Change the format maybe for the future.

I like it. Could do. Maybe that's something that we'll sort of take on.

Company Doctor Goes to Sleep or something. Yeah, I could be the company Nurse or something.

So anyway, obviously, we covered a hell of a lot last year. We had loads and loads of episodes, and it seems not that long ago that Matt Crabtree was teaching us how to ask bloody good questions, which is what I'm gonna be trying to do today. That was in April, by the way. It does feel like only yesterday, but it was actually in April.

It was, just for a bit of stats, but if anyone's interested, it was in our top 4 highest ever downloaded episodes.

All right. Well, yeah, keep those stats coming because I actually have no idea about that.

I've got stats coming out me ears.

So I'm going to start with a fairly general question, but I think it's still a bloody good one, which is what, if anything, did 2023 teach you from a business perspective? Have you learned anything which surprised you, or is there anything that you experienced which may have changed the way you approach future challenges?

Wow, what a great question, George, to start with.

Thank you.

Well, actually, I have been thinking about this even though I didn't know you were going to ask me this question because What I thought about during the year is lots of things come up that people know about, but they forget about. And then when I was thinking about our episode, when we do episodes, people really appreciate them.

We get lots of comments and it reminds people of things that they might have known already, or sometimes new things. But for whatever reason, a lot of people lose the impetus to put things into practice or forget that they were an idea in the first place.

And I find the same in business. So I work with all sorts of companies in different guises, and I think it's the same for them that, you know, people clearly have the knowledge and experience to do the right things, but they—

people get busy, the real world gets in the way, and then we forget.

Yeah. So you have the foundations to do the things that you want to do, but you just don't put them into practice because life gets in the way.

That's the first one. And then the second one that really stands out for me is I strongly believe that difficult times are the best times to launch forward. Because I remember back to when I started my career, which is in 2000, on my own in 2008, which is the worst recession we'd had at that time. And that for me personally was the best year.

So I think, you know, you can always see examples of people that have done well in difficult times.

I'm not disregarding how difficult it has been for people.

Sure.

But the good news is there's always light at the end of the tunnel and hopefully it's not a train coming the other way.

I like that. And actually we've got an episode coming up on that, haven't we? I think. Turning chaos into something.

Make your drama out of a crisis, coming soon.

That's the one. Yeah, yeah, stay tuned. And sort of along a similar sort of vein, you're obviously, among many other things, a coach for people, um, and obviously keeping things strictly confidential, but have you noticed any sort of trends this year in the problems and the sort of challenges that people are coming to you for help with as a coach?

Yeah, I think over the last 12 months I've seen a lot of people, uh, you know, really worried about their careers and mental health issues. I'm not, I'm not an experienced coach in mental health, but I've seen that, that there's a big change in that.

Whereas in the past, most of the focus when I coach people is around the business and where it's going. There's been a pivot towards people and their careers, which I guess has always been there, but it's kind of come up more than it ever used to, I think.

Well, the sort of career aspect.

Yeah. So when I coach an individual, you know, in the past, the majority of the conversations around what we can do, where we can take the business, which is kind of the reason for doing business coaching. But there was always a kind of peppering of personal career advice that I would be giving people.

I think it's pivoted the other way now, where the majority of my conversations with people around their careers and their future, and obviously in line with business, but the majority is about people and their careers and their future.

And why do you think that is? Is it because people are sort of taking on their own, you know, they're sort of becoming their own brand and they're sort of focusing more on themselves as opposed to I don't know, their own businesses and that, you know, people are being more entrepreneurial and everyone's got a side hustle. Is it that sort of thing?

Well, it might be, but the thing that I was thinking about is it's probably— I think COVID has acted as an accelerator in that and it's got people to think, you know, we spent more time at home.

We were thinking about people worried about their jobs at the time. There was a lot of big change going on and I think it caused people to think and then think more about themselves because, you know, when you're in the, in the rat race, you're You're so busy you don't get time to think and sharpen your own axe.

You're focused on your work and you don't get time to think. So I think people had that chance and that made them focus on themselves, which is fantastic.

Interesting. And have you had to change your approach in that regard? Have you sort of, or are you able to pivot quite easily to sort of focusing more on people's careers and personal goals?

Yeah, I think, you know, we've done that with the podcast, haven't we, George? So, you know, the podcast started as a sort of pure business podcast and we've kind of morphed into helping people with their careers more than—

well, as well as, let's say. Yeah.

So yeah, I think, you know, I think we've all, we've all changed. I think it's a good thing, by the way, because people used to talk about work-life balance and all that kind of stuff, but your life at home and at work is the same.

You're one person, you can't kind of divide yourself. So it kind of makes sense that that's where we've got to. And I think a bit more human. I found out from the last episode when we're listening to, to Graham Allcott, which is something I didn't realize about how the, how the weekend came about, and You know, for those that didn't listen to it, it came from Henry Ford, who was looking for efficiency to try and get more out the workforce to produce cars.

And they worked out that there was a tipping point where you need— after 5 days, people needed to get 2 days out to work better.

And I think if you use that thinking, that logic, that's why the 4-day week episode that we did a year ago today, by the way, which is our kickoff to '23, if you remember, there's something in it which is, you know, work isn't just about earning money or Having a sense of purpose is a combination of all those sorts of things.

So I think when you take those things into account, it's actually a good thing. I'm quite excited, actually.

You?

I'm very excited. I mean, you're sort of— you're quite excited just generally, which is something we'll come to.

Because I drink too much. That's really the reason.

I'm actually— I'm very glad that you mentioned the 4-day week episode because my next question is based on that. And one of the problems at the time is that I think we were only 6 months into the trial and we didn't have that much data to review. And I think we're about 9 months in now from that. And I read a few days ago that the government is threatening sort of financial penalties on councils who are still pursuing the 4-day week. So basically saying it's not going to happen and we're going to basically charge you if you try and do it. And so the whole debate is turning a little bit ugly. And I wondered if with the benefit of hindsight, has your view changed? It sounds like it hasn't. It sounds like you're still sort of quite sort of pro that balance. But has it changed with the extra info and the extra time that we've had to reflect?

I must have— I didn't get that info about the government, but I've been reading more about it. And again, on the last episode with Graham, he's actually implemented it.

He was cool because he did it before anyone knew about it.

And I've always felt that way.

As you know, I always talked about being a consultant and treating each day like you're about to go on holiday and then work like that every day. Because you're— when you have—

when you're time-bound, you have stronger focus. And so I feel— I do feel strongly about—

I run a company, so, you know, I'm being careful about it, but there's definitely something in it.

I don't know what the tipping point is, but there's definitely something in it. And I think people will pursue it more. I think there'll be a stronger focus on getting back people back in the office this year.

Yeah, I've already seen that, but I'm not necessarily convinced that's the complete part of the jigsaw because I think there is a thing about attention, not time.

And if you can get people, you know, people fill their days.

And I've always said that.

Yeah.

So if you can get people to focus on attention rather than time, whatever method is needed, I think will make a big difference.

Yeah. I mean, it's an ongoing debate, isn't it? And it's what— there's no sort of— there's no answer to it. And I think it's just going to kind of keep on rolling.

What do you think, George? What's your thoughts?

I don't know. I'm sort of slightly— I used to be very, very much in favor of it. And I think having these extra 9 months to think about it has made me realize that it may not be the best. I think everyone's different and I think flexibility is the key rather than sort of enforcing one particular one-size-fits-all approach. But I do think you're right. I think people are going to start coming back into the office this year, and I think that's a lot to do with people wanting to as well, rather than sort of companies forcing them.

Well, here's my role rather than my rock or my rap.

We'll talk about raps in a minute, aren't we? Here's my role. I think it's not a binary thing. I think you just alluded to that.

So there's some situation, if someone's in operations or in certain customer service roles or whatever, you won't be able to do that. And therefore it feels like it's not fair to some people to have it, not others.

But one size doesn't fit all.

So here's my role for 24, for those listening, you know, don't give up on ideas about finding better ways to work.

So I think ways of working is the thing that we should all focus on. Is there better ways of working?

Can we make work more enjoyable?

Can we, you know, whether people go in the office or not, are there better ways to work to get more productivity, have more fun?

And more success.

And success isn't just about the company, it's about the individual. So, you know, maybe we're being too binary about whether you have a 4-day week or not, or if you work from home or not.

I think, you know, it's a bit more nuanced.

I agree. And I think that's quite a refreshing take as well, especially as someone who does run a business, because I think a lot of people are just, they're just so focused on productivity and revenue and they forget that actually work is about more than just that. Anyway, that's just my view.

It's a deep topic.

It is, yeah. I know.

Well, we could talk about this for the whole episode. I mean, we mustn't. But we won't.

So instead, I will ask you, because we're in the month of making resolutions still, just about, I always find it very helpful to reflect on your attitude towards New Year's resolutions and how people should approach them. And so for listeners who don't know your feelings, and this is, I guess, a bit of a wrap because we're covering something that we have spoken about in the past, but a roll in that we are looking forward to how people should approach these resolutions for 2024. Could you talk a bit about your views on New Year's resolutions and bring our listeners up to speed?

Oh, I can. And what a loaded question, because in January 2022, our episode was called The Anti-New Year's Resolution Policy with Gary Gamp. So there you go.

I'm not a big fan of New Year's resolutions. And the reason is that I feel that we should always be resetting our goals.

It shouldn't be something we do in January.

It should be something we do all the time. And the fact that people do do that, you know, people join health clubs in January and leave in March, you know?

Yeah, it's not very sustainable.

We need to find a more sustainable way, and I don't think New Year's resolutions are the answer. Having said that, if it kicks you into touch and it gets you started on something that you didn't do before, then great.

But why not do that every month or every week or whatever? That's why, why I'm not for it.

So that, that's my, that's the Gary Gamp take on it.

No, I really like it, and I think, as you say, I think it's the sort of thing, you know, if you're going to set goals or you are going to use the new year as a sort of catalyst for starting in a new direction or trying to achieve something which you hadn't so far, it's the sort of thing you should do every month and you should check back and sort of say, have I achieved that in this month? No. Why not? Let's sort of set out a new agenda. So I do find that incredibly helpful.

And here's a tip for that. So, and we are, we keep threatening to do an episode on growth mindset, but the principle is this, that if you live your life through the lens of 'What if I can do that better next time?' Then you should always be thinking about, 'What could I do as a result? Is there something I could do better? You know, should I just stop being on the treadmill and do something different?

Do I get back to the goal I always wanted to have?' So if you give yourself planning time, thinking time, I think people should spend 20% of their time planning and thinking, which is one day a week. And that may be the work—

a four-day week with the business and one day thinking and planning.

Because you'll help your business more. How about that?

Yeah, I think that's— it's really solid advice and I don't think enough people do it. And I think it goes back to what we were saying about people, you know, life getting in the way and you sort of just— you just— it is ticking over as opposed to, you know, looking to the future.

You know, if you think back, you know, we just hit Christmas and I was like joking in the summer that we're starting to advertise for Christmas. That's the year gone.

Boom.

Yeah.

Happened so quick, right? I know. Well, there are Easter eggs in my local supermarket. It's outrageous. Oh, that does not surprise me. I know, it's great.

Definitely going to be Valentine's cards coming out soon.

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah. Moving on, we did a cracking episode with Colette Hannigan in September, and this is where we're going to be talking about your energy levels and your excitement. And it was all about what she described as the personal energy epidemic. I've known you for a number of years now, Gary, and you don't strike me as someone who suffers too much from a lack of personal energy. So I wonder if you could talk a bit about what keeps you motivated and how you work on keeping personal energy levels up.

Yeah, I think it's a good question. I mean, that episode was great because it kind of linked food to energy, but you know, we didn't talk too much about motivation, but I think it was a really great one to get the most out of your day.

The motivation thing, I've always been a strong believer in self-motivation, probably because in, in my early career I didn't get managed very well. So if I didn't have self-motivation, I'd probably be depressed.

So I spent most of my life trying to focus on things I really enjoy doing. And, uh, and I think, no, that's it. So it doesn't mean it has to be material things, or, you know, I always talk about the three things, which is kind of mastery, autonomy, and purpose.

And, you know, probably starting with purpose, it's like, well, you know, if people have a sense of purpose, they can probably overcome most things.

And what does purpose mean? Well, it's something that gets you out of bed and keeps you awake, you know, keeps you awake in a good way to think about, I'm really excited about tomorrow because I've got something fulfilling that is, you know, part of my values. So that, that's how I've lived my life.

And when I, you know, when I was 15, I, I was working on, you know, I started the charity, as people heard before.

But that was more—

it wasn't about being a do-gooder, it was just to give me a sense of purpose.

I really enjoyed it. It was an intellectual and physical challenge to get a group of teenagers to do something for a good cause and run large events. And that really gave me a sense of purpose.

But I don't know why I did it. I can't remember now. I think some— a friend's father had passed away and we just thought we should do something for that charity, and then it kind of, it ran from there. So yeah, so self-motivation is about purpose.

Mastery is, you know, doing the things that you like doing and therefore will be good at, because people like doing things they're good at. So if you can work on something you'll enjoy doing and you're good at, yeah, that might mean you need to change careers, but then, you know, you don't have to do it overnight.

It's something that you could, you could, you know, challenge yourself for.

And autonomy is that people don't like being micromanaged. So get out of my way, let me get on with it, and I'll tell you if I've got a problem.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that makes sense. And I, you know, the purpose thing especially I think is important. And are you suggesting that if people feel like they don't have that, then they should create it for themselves, as in find a purpose, basically?

Yeah. I mean, there's two areas where the purpose will come from. You know, hopefully it will come from your company, which doesn't always happen. It's not always obvious, but if it doesn't, you know, I've been in a situation where With a small group of people, we try to create purpose within a company. Nothing revolutionary, but just enough to keep us excited. So you can take control internally if you're in a company.

But also the reason for having spending, you know, 20% of your time thinking is that, you know, that's the chance to think about what you really like. You're a good example of it.

You've got some real creative interests that you've always pursued.

Some of them didn't work financially, but doesn't matter. Hasn't stopped you focusing on them. And, you know, and who knows, right? It could lead—

it's not all about earning money.

Sometimes it's just about doing things we like to do. So if people are listening, don't give up on your dreams. When you start, uh, before you get into the rut of a career, you've got things you want to do, don't give up on them.

You know, you can always revisit them, and it doesn't mean you have to throw everything away.

It's just, you know, just it's in your own control. Oh, and I feel strongly about that. Never give up on your dreams.

Yeah, that's good. And, and Inspiring. I always find these talks, which I sort of treat, as I've said in the past, as sort of personal counseling sessions. I always find it very motivational and I always come away thinking, yeah, that's easy. You always make it sound very easy, which I think is great, but obviously it's not and you do have to stick at it.

It's not easy.

No, definitely isn't easy for sure.

We couldn't do a 2023 Company Doctor wrap episode without obviously mentioning the blockbuster episode that was Get Over Yourself with Sally Wilkinson. Speaking of inspiring, that was a very inspiring episode, and Sally had obviously overcome a huge amount to get to where she is today. I wonder if, inspired by Sally, you could recall a time that you have had to overcome a major barrier in order to progress your life or career and how you did it.

That's a great one. And by the way, that episode was a blockbuster. I think blockbuster is the right word for it. It was probably our, you know, it's our biggest download ever in the time of the podcast, but also it's the podcast episode we had the most comments about. Yeah, because Sally's very inspirational in her story and has a good following as well.

Um, yeah, for me, you know, I probably don't have anything as big as that, but I do remember when I was early in my career, I was running a kind of global rollout of technology for a company, and I had a very senior role for my age, and I was running around the world.

It was, it was a kind of travel-related business, so I was traveling. We should have a meeting in a different country every day. It was It was very exciting at a young age, but I actually reached burnout, and which has never happened to me before or since.

And, um, you know, it was one of those things, I do remember it, where I was, I was almost in depression. You'll find it's hard to believe, it was in a kind of depression because I thought there was something wrong with me and I was gonna die from it or something. It wasn't anything, but I was really in a burnout. And I think sometimes people work so hard, and they get to a situation where, where they're in a burnout.

And, you know, I'm going to say this, and I don't say this lightly, it's only a job.

It doesn't make any sense to let a job affect your health, whatever you're doing.

And so if you're getting close to that, and sometimes people don't realize they're in a burnout—

I didn't—

then, um, you know, you should take stock of what you're doing, because sometimes you're chasing the money, or you're just, you know, you're caught up in it because you don't think you can do something else.

But actually you can. Again, you don't have to rush into anything. But if you're in a situation where you're being bullied by your boss or you're under a lot of pressure, it's causing you physical health issues, why would you do it?

It doesn't make any sense.

Yeah.

And, uh, so that, that was my example, and I was, uh, maybe 30 at the time.

Yeah, yeah, it's easily done. And I think, you know, you say people work themselves into the ground and they almost without realizing why they're doing it.

Yeah, it's only a job.

Yeah, yeah. And it's hard to get into that mindset as well because you're sort of brought up to believe that it's the be-all and end-all and that you have to succeed at this job in order to survive.

But, um, you shouldn't do a good job or be professional, and that's what I'm saying. But it's at the end of the day, I always talk about a job as you're in a paper—

a city made of paper, and someone else is in control of your city. You're building a little city and you've got your teams and you've got this on the other, and then one day someone could just tread on your city and trample it, and it's not in your control.

And you've spent all that time and effort and you've ruined your— you know, you might have ruined your relationships or, or your health.

It's not worth it. So that's why I believe people should take control of their futures for that reason, so that you're in control of your paper city.

But that's my example, George.

Yeah, no, I like it.

You may not have known that.

I didn't know that. I didn't know that. It's interesting and it does surprise me. So yeah, so thanks for sharing that, Gary. And I'm going to move on to a book actually, which you gave me. So towards the end of last year, you gave me a book called Never Eat Alone by Keith Ferrazzi. And you said it was a real inspiration to you. And I'm Only a few chapters in, but it's already— I'm already finding it really, really useful, and it is an excellent book. And it's all about the sort of the power, basically, of building meaningful relationships and what that can lead to and how you can do it. As someone who is famously good at building connections, could you perhaps— and we have talked about networking a lot in the past, but I do think it's something at this time of year is useful to reflect on— could you give our listeners 3, or however many you want, top tips for building their networks in 2024?

Yeah, by the way, I highly recommend that book. I'd forgotten about that book because I read it, and a lot of— I live a lot of my life by it, actually. And when I gave it to you, I said it's a game changer, and it really is.

And it's going to help me answer your question because I think the first one is, you know, people don't understand networking, therefore they don't do it. They think it's kind of a weird thing. So the number one thing I think about networking, and it's in the book actually, it's called audacity. I think we should do an episode on it. Is having the audacity or being brave enough to connect.

You know, a lot of the time, you know, I've done this myself where I'm in a situation where I could reach out my hand and say hi, but I don't. I remember once I was in the lift. Yeah, if you ever go on a sales training course, they say you need an elevator pitch.

So if you ever meet the CEO of Coca-Cola in the lift, you can tell them what you do. And I was in Brussels running a meeting and next door was the Coca-Cola exec management team.

And I got in the lift and he was in the lift.

I can't remember who he was at the time. And guess what I said, George, to the man on the lift, the CEO of Coca-Cola?

I don't know.

Good morning. Absolutely nothing. I thought I was going to say something. I knew I should have said something, but I didn't. I'm not perfect, but that's the first one.

So having audacity, being brave enough to connect because you never know. I'm not saying go and drive people mad. You have to treat each opportunity as it comes.

But if I'm sitting next to someone on the train or a plane, or I'm standing in a queue somewhere, you know, you've seen me, I try to chat to people and build a connection.

I'm not doing it so that I can sell them something, but I've got the audacity to connect.

That's the first one.

Yeah, yeah, I like that.

The second one is consistency. It's so important to—

if you just do little and often and you make it part of your DNA, then it works better than, oh, you get all excited, you listen to this podcast, you think, well, I'm out there, I'm gonna I'm Mr. Networker, get out of my way. Don't do that, by the way.

Um, and then so next week you go and speak to 20 people, and the week after, and next 3 months, you don't talk to anyone.

That's no use either, because you've got to build up a head of steam.

It should be part of the DNA, and it should be natural to you.

So that's the second one about networking. And the third one is, you know, make it part of your DNA. Don't do it when you need to, because I see a lot of people on LinkedIn, you know, we've joked about the people with a 'I'm open to network' around their heads.

Yeah. And it's normally because they've got problems at work and they think they might be made redundant or whatever it is.

Networking isn't a desperation thing, it's a lifestyle thing.

And connected to that is that you need to be able to offer value to the people that you're speaking to.

It's not about you, it's about them. It's not what you can get out of networking, it's what you can give to other people. And people listening will think, oh, that sounds a bit glib. No, it isn't. If you can give, you'll get back eventually. Yeah, but you should always think about the value you can offer to others. Otherwise, why would they spend time talking to you? What have you got? Why should they spend their precious time talking to you?

Yeah, it's about what you can give, not what you can get.

Yeah, that I think is such a crucial thing and something which I hadn't ever considered. But, and also Keith Ferrazzi in the book, he gives so many examples of times where people haven't done that and people that he knew who didn't sort of follow that philosophy and it's just not ended well. So yeah, I think that's, that's super useful. And the audacity thing as well. Audacity, by the way, is a very popular word at the moment. Is it? Yeah, it's sort of a trending meme word, and I'm not going to say any more because I'll show my age by using words wrongly. But I think having the audacity is quite a popular thing, so I think it's going to resonate.

Good. Well, I think, you know, on a future episode we're going to talk about audacity in a positive way.

Yeah, great. We're coming to the end.

You'll be pleased. So sad.

I know, out of the hot seat, but with a final question for you. And also just to obviously say that we had loads of excellent guests last year and too many to name-check all of them, but obviously the likes of Claude Baker and Alex Crossman and Paula Cogan. There were some fantastic episodes. I always like the guest episodes. I also like the ones where it's just you and I. And towards the end of the year, you and I did the Hunting, Hustling, Hired, the Triple H of career progression episode. And I think this is the sort of time of year when people start considering a move or making a bid for promotion. And I wonder if you could give our listeners some tips on what not to do because I think the episode is really good at giving advice and telling people what they should be doing. But I wonder if it'd be useful to— because there are some ways of doing it which I think are advised against. And I think, you know, there are some traps that people fall into when it comes to, you know, trying to progress their career or apply for that new job. So I wonder if you could talk about what those traps are.

I do love that it is a personal coaching session for sure, isn't it? I love that. Yeah.

After this, I wonder if you could just tell me your favorite recipe and how to cook it.

We can just call each other after. It's It's funny, actually, that particular episode, I think it was one of our best You and Me episodes. We got such a great response from it.

And basically, you know, we created that episode to help people with their careers because, you know, the market's difficult, and particularly for people early in their careers, it's quite hard. So, you know, it did focus on a lot of stuff to help people with the what to do parts.

You're asking me about what not to do. I could say it's the opposite of what to do.

I think probably the most important thing of what not to do is don't run into— you know, I've used this analogy before— don't run into Trafalgar Square with a loaf of bread, throw it at the pigeons.

They want bread, they just don't want it thrown at them. And I think people approach getting a job with a kind of desperation.

And, you know, so don't be desperate, because when you're desperate, it's really repelling. Uh, A, you're not, you're not at your best, you're not thinking straight. It's kind of the worst, it's the worst parts of everything.

It's always better to be in control, planned. You know, it's not— no one's saying it's easy because it really isn't.

It's a very difficult thing to do. And we talk in the episode about you're not looking for a job, you're looking for a career.

And I think if you take that into account, that's another not thing.

You're not looking for a job, you're looking for a career.

Therefore, it is a bit of a campaign.

So what you don't want to be doing is just applying for one job here and there and hoping it's all going to be okay because it won't be. Because the win rate on a job application is really low.

It's so low that sometimes I wonder why people bother.

You know, there's better ways to get a job than firing off applications.

And, um, yeah, I appreciate if someone's leaving uni and they're about to get a job, they're caught in having to respond to different companies and get on the rounds.

And apparently you have to apply for 100 jobs to even get a chance of 1 or 2. Wow, that's not good odds.

No, I'm not saying you shouldn't do that because I think you should still do that.

So my advice, without wanting to do the whole episode again, is calm down, take the time to think, look for a career, not a job, treat it like a campaign, set yourself up to succeed, not to fail.

What I mean by that is don't do one or two things here and there, and don't have one type of approach.

Don't just reply to ads. Use, you know, listen to the episode because we've done a lot of research about different ways of of applying for jobs that can really make a difference and put you in the best chance. Don't put yourself in a situation where the stats are against you, would be my final thing.

But listen to the episode because we've done a lot of good work on it.

I think it, I don't want to repeat it, but there's some better ways to find a job than people are following today.

Nice. Well, that brings us to the end of the questions, and I think we've got lots of quite exciting things coming up as well, including a live episode that we're doing and some other wonderful things in the pipeline. So just finally, anything to add to this episode?

Yes, I've got a question for you. And by the way, I've really enjoyed you asking me questions. You're very good at asking questions, George.

Oh, thanks.

And really enjoyed doing the podcast with you last year. We had a lot of fun.

Here's a question for you. We started to do Eureka moments, which are basically 10-minute coffee hits. So you can go and have a cup of coffee listen to a 10-minute podcast with a eureka moment at the end. Yep. So here's my question to you.

What is your one eureka moment you can give people from things that you've done yourself in your either last year or in your lifetime?

Oh God, that is tough. But I think it actually— and I'm not stealing your ideas here, although I often do— but I think what you were saying earlier about not giving up on your dreams I think from some of the stuff that I've been doing recently has been, you know, outside of, outside of my job, and it's essentially a side hustle, but I'm not getting paid for it. But it's keeping that creative outlet alive and sticking at it and staying hungry. And I think that's really helped me. I'm probably being quite vague here, but rather than sort of banging on about it, I think I would just say that for me, I assumed at a certain age that I'd have to just get a proper job and that that would be the end of the end of everything, the end of sort of fun and excitement from a career perspective. But actually, I found that as much as I do enjoy my job, which I do, I think you need to have that sort of extra thing. And I think if it's something which you're passionate about and you stick at it, eventually it will come to fruition. And I think, as you were saying, I've thrown all sorts of stuff against the wall over the years, some of which has been— it's all of which has been really, really fun, some of which has been some of which hasn't, but the stuff that I'm working on currently and have been for, well, nearly coming up to about 2 years actually, we've stuck at it and it's paid off. I'm rambling, but—

No, this is perfect. No, this is perfect. So yeah, don't give up on your dreams.

Now hopefully you'll watch this space soon on the George front, but it's all exciting.

You've got to keep pursuing your dreams, even if it's done in the background while you're getting paid the bills. And I think you're a good example of it, George.

That's fantastic.

Thanks very much.

Thank you so much for asking me the questions. You're awesome, George. Pleasure. What a great way to start '24 with a bit of a rap.

Hold on, just quickly before we go, a lot of people listening don't realize we've called this Rap and Roll, but George is an unknown rap star. What was your rap name, George?

I'm not going to say.

You should, you got to do it.

What was it?

It was Joey Palms.

Joey Palms, here we are, Joey Palms. And can it still be found on Spotify or anywhere?

I think you can find it on YouTube. But I'm not going to help anyone too much. If you want to find it, then you probably can.

So that's it.

So that's a wrap for this episode.

That is a wrap. And thank you very much, Gary. And thanks everybody for listening. Have a wonderful 2024 and we shall see you soon.

See you soon.

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