Who Do You Think You Are? The truth about imposter syndrome #105

After all, all art is experience.

Hello, Gary Gamp. George, we're in Bunhill Row.

Yes, indeed, at the cemetery, which—

not very cheerful.

Yeah, we probably could have done this about the death of your career or something about ghosting, but we've decided to do it about something which, you know, we've talked about a bit. I think it's always a hot topic. It's the idea of imposter syndrome. So I'm going to be picking your brains as we walk slowly and carefully through, uh, through Barnhill Fields.

By the way, just to say, last time when we did our sit and talk, wasn't quite the same. This walk.

Yeah, it's all about the walking.

I think so.

Dynamism.

And then we should brain go, don't you think?

It does. Well, certainly mine.

I don't know where it goes, but hopefully it comes back.

I'm going to kick off with one which I think just to sort of set the scene. How do you define imposter syndrome, Gary, and how does it differ from a simple lack of confidence or experience?

It's quite interesting, isn't it, when it gets given that kind of syndrome title, it makes you think it's kind of a bit nasty. I think what it is, is that everyone goes through their life. When you're a kid, you think anything can happen until you reach the age of 3 when your parents, when you keep asking why and they kind of slap you around the face a bit. And you stop asking. And so I think as you go through life, you kind of lose your confidence. And so what I've seen happen is as people kind of reach the heady heights in their careers, they're kind of in disbelief because it was so hard getting there. That they don't think they're worthy. And so imposter syndrome is you're feeling that you're not worthy for the role you're about to proceed in.

Yeah, nice. And I mean, my next question is sort of, you sum that up slightly, but why do you think it seems to compound or get worse the more senior or more successful you become in your career?

I think it's about expectation because again, I think the journey is so hard. It's interesting actually, your career is not linear. A lot, you know, a lot of people talk about, I did this and I became that and I was, wow, I became this. But actually the journey to get there is really hard and it's not linear. And so I do think by the time you get to any level of promotion success in your own mind, you start worrying that, am I really good enough? I mean, oh, I'm actually here now. So I didn't reset the goal. I've reached my goal now. Ooh, I don't know what to do. Yeah. Things a bit like that.

Well, I said that's the idea of sort of, you know, what do you want to be when you grow up? Yeah. And people constantly think that, you know, there's going to be an endpoint. And when you reach that endpoint, you should feel like you actually, you know, you've done it. Um, but yes, as we know, that's not the case.

And I don't think I'm gonna grow up, is the truth.

No, I don't think you are either. Thank you. Um, in what ways can a professional distinguish between healthy growth pains and a sort of debilitating fear of being found out? So what I mean by that is, how do you sort of sense it in yourself, this imposter syndrome? And what's the difference between growing and sort of doing well and this idea of being found out for not being the success that you rightfully are?

I think you can unpack it when you actually break it down. You know, why is someone nervous? They kind of think they're not worthy because they don't— they start to think maybe they can't do what they're about to do. The reason they're there is because they can. And, you know, we talk a lot about a growth mindset, which means you're never done anyway. So you're always going to improve. But the one way to do it is you can unpack it with something we've talked about before, which is a bit of a ta-da list.

Ta-da!

Ah, yeah. So why don't you sit down and think about all the things you've done and that you're good at, your superpowers. Particularly in this area, obviously. And then you'll quickly realize that you've done most of these things. And when you had a problem, you kind of didn't get stuck. You found a solution to it. And I think that's what happened when I became a consultant. I was worried that people were paying me and I might not know the answer.

Yeah.

But the truth is, you know, if I'm stuck, I go and find someone else, but you're never really that stuck. So once you write down what your superpowers are and your to-do list, I think you'll realize actually, you know what, I'm quite good at this.

Yeah.

You ever, you know, you ever been at work where you went home and you thought, I'm so good today. Really?

Oh, I do every day.

Maybe a bit arrogant. And you know, on those days where you were so good, what was it you were so good at?

Yeah. Yeah, nice. I did actually have a day like that. Did you? Quite recently, yeah.

Oh, really?

Okay. It'd be interesting to go and show that.

Do you want to show that? Therapy?

No? Maybe, yeah.

Should we just show we are actually in a graveyard?

Yeah.

Cheerful stuff, isn't it?

Great surroundings. Yeah, really appropriate stuff.

Bunch of deadbeats, to be honest, mate.

Gary, in what ways does imposter syndrome negatively impact business performance and team productivity, if at all? You might think it doesn't. But if it does, how does it?

Well, it can. I think part of the problem is that when people have it, they don't want to talk about it 'cause it makes you look weak. So then you kind of sit and wallow in it. But one way to look at it is, and it can affect your performance, is kind of if you know that you've got imposter syndrome.

Yeah.

You're having a moment, then just stop and catch yourself and think about this. Have you heard of Critical Friend before?

No.

Oh, okay. Maybe you need some friends. A critical friend is if you have a really good friend and you have a good enough relationship you can be honest with them and tell them the good and the bad, right, without upsetting them. But why don't you be a critical friend to yourself? Because sometimes people, their self-talk, they wouldn't say that to a friend, and you say it to yourself. So be nice to yourself and actually stop yourself before you go in a kind of downward spiral, because you've just got there and you're just about to sabotage all the good work you've done unnecessarily, I think.

Yeah, yeah. And it usually is, isn't it? I mean, yeah, it's that sort of, as you say, that voice in your head which is, uh, sort of picking at you, whereas actually if a friend were to come to you and say, I'm feeling like this, what's your advice? What would you say to them? And if it's nice, then say it to yourself. Um, is fake it till you make it, which is, you know, classic phrase, I've heard you say it before, I often think about that, um—

You're doing well at that, by the way, George.

Thanks. Yeah, yeah. Is fake it until you make it a sustainable strategy, or does it eventually lead to burnout?

You know what, I think it's a great question. I've got to be careful when people listening might want to know what I think about this, but I've always faked it till I've made it. All right. Because the thing is, everyone's got skills and things they're capable of. And why are you no better than anyone else at doing that? And sometimes people get themselves in the way. I don't think it leads to burnout. So I spent the last 20 years as a business consultant faking it till I make it, because every time I do something, I've learned from it and try and do it better next time. I'll learn from things that didn't work. So you are naturally gonna improve. When you start, you realize you don't know everything. And I know there are some people listening who think they do. You don't. Then if you're in that learning mindset, then inevitably in a new role or in a leadership role, you're gonna get better. As long as you don't become arrogant, as long as you take input from other people, don't think you know everything. You know, I think it's a growing opportunity. So no, I don't think you'll burn out. As long as you don't let the power go to your head.

Yeah, nice. Which I'm guilty of, as we know. The power. I'm just going to sort of flip around a little bit, Lillie.

Oh, you want me to turn around more? More graves?

Well, I'm sort of flipping the perspective.

Is this a grave perspective?

Well, why not? Yeah, it's a grave perspective on things. As a manager, how can you identify and support a team member who is quietly struggling with self-doubt?

Yeah, I think you've got to catch it. I think, as I say, the issue is that people won't want to admit to it. And I think the word syndrome doesn't really help because it sounds like it's a disease or something. All it is that people care, right? So I think if you're a manager and you have someone in your team that you either think is struggling or doesn't feel they're worthy, then have a one-on-one with them and explain you probably went through the same thing yourself and just kind of reinforce what they're good at. Go back to their strengths and realize they're on a journey that they don't need to know everything. Some people are— it's the same when we do public speaking. If someone asks you a difficult question, a lot of people won't public speak because they're worried in case someone asks them something they don't know. You don't have to know everything unless you're George. You're all right. You can go and find out, look up ChatGPT and come back to them.

You've talked already about a couple of things like critical friend, you know, listing out your superpowers, but are there any other practical exercises or mental frameworks that someone can use to sort of reset when they're starting to feel like a fraud or in a high-pressure moment? And also, shall we go that way a little bit because it's nice?

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, let's do it. We're turning right?

Yeah.

Yeah. I think one of the key things for me would be to steep yourself in your topic. And because what makes someone an authority in a topic? What do you think? What makes someone an expert in their field, you reckon?

Well, I guess it's experience and knowledge and, you know, years of training and dedication to Yeah, so what it is, you're sort of teaching, whatever, maybe.

But then what's the tipping point? Once you wake up, is it many hours? Is it the number of people you've seen? What is the point where you go, you know what, I'm an expert now? What do you think?

I don't think there is one, right? Is that the right answer?

Well, I don't know. I think part of the answer is that if you want to become an expert, you have to steep yourself in a topic and then you get knowledgeable on it. A good example is I listen to certain podcasts on Mac technology because I love Macs. So anything around Macs, I kind of— I'm not an expert, but I kind of pretty well-versed in Macs, not technology, but just where it's going and how it all works. And there was a book by someone Slater, can't remember his first name for a minute, it might be Alan Slater. It was called The Zulu Principle and his wife became an expert on Zulus. She just really found it fascinating. She read loads of books on it. Then she started getting invited to answer questions on it and then she was on the TV about it and she became a de facto expert because she steeped herself in it. What was the tipping point? I don't know, but I think that's the same for this. It's like if you can steep yourself, listen to podcasts, read books, you reuse your experience from yourself and others on the topic, then you're more expert than anyone else. And therefore that will give you confidence to be better.

That's great advice.

I know, it's quite good, right?

Yeah, it's really good. And you know what, I've had someone say that to me before, many, many years ago in a different job. Someone said, my advice to you is to become an expert. Because then you start getting asked to do, you know, appearances on TV as a talking head and, you know, panel discussions and all that sort of stuff. Obviously it's a—

and you've got a face for TV, George, yeah? Or even face for radio.

Yeah. Or podcast. Can't be both. No. Um, do you think there is a relationship between perfectionism and imposter syndrome? And if so, what is it?

Oh, that's a great question. I think it's linked to growth mindset. So just to remind people, fixed and growth mindset. Fixed mindset is that you believe that The only way you can succeed is to be smart. And growth mindset is, I feel I can always develop, I can learn and from mistakes and do better next time. And so if you're in a fixed mindset, you're gonna find that you are more likely to have imposter syndrome than if you're in a growth mindset.

So you think it's more growth mindset than, than perfectionism? Is it sort of, is there a link between trying to be a perfectionist? I think it sort of links to what you were saying just now about, you know, when do you become the expert? Is there ever a time when you become the person that knows everything about something?

Yeah. Well, I suppose if you think about certain trades where being a perfectionist is a good thing rather than a bad thing. So like a chef or an artist or someone who works in the newspaper, then, you know, as long as you've got a growth mindset, you feel that you don't have to know everything at once, then being a perfectionist is okay as long as it doesn't get in your way of progress. Mhm. But if you've got a fixed mindset and you're trying to be a perfectionist, you'll end up hurting yourself. And a good example is there was a plane— I can't remember when it was, but it was a long time ago— where there was a flashing light in the cockpit. It's a famous story. And the pilot was so focused on the flashing light that the plane went down. But it was just, uh, something wrong with the light, not anything wrong with the plane. So I think you've got to put in perspective, why are you being a perfectionist? Is it because you want to be better and be the best, which is fine and there's nothing wrong with that, but is it impeding progress? Sometimes it's good enough and we've talked about MVP. Sometimes you get more productivity if you just get to a stage, they call it sprints in the project world, where you've kind of delivered something rather than waiting for all the lights to be green.

Nice. Yeah, that does answer my question. And sprints as well.

You like sprints? We could do a sprint now, but I've got a backpack and I'm very old.

I've got two more questions for you, Gary. What are some of the common psychological or behavioral signs that someone's struggling with these sorts of feelings? Can you spot it? If you're a manager, can you sort of sense that someone's going through this? What are the best things to sort of look out for?

Yeah, I think that the first one and most obvious one is inactivity. So people kind of freeze. They don't know what to do. And so they don't do anything. Or not, they do less than they should be. Yeah. So I think spotting someone kind of not making progress, not making decisions, inactivity is one. And I think the second one to look out for is when someone becomes really irritable. Yeah. I mean, they may be a grumpy git anyway, but if they've uncharacteristically become grumpy or frustrated or a bit irritable, it might be because they're struggling a little bit, or they might have problems at home. But it's worth digging in to understand.

Yeah.

And I think the third thing is, I just think you should be open with people about it because they may not realize that's a normal thing for people to go through and they may not realize they've got a syndrome. So tell them about their little syndrome, help them through it.

Yeah. Nice. Yeah, no, that's good. I think being open about this stuff is a good way forward. Okay. My final question. Is it big? It's not, you know what, it doesn't have the gravitas of a final question, I don't think. And I'm sorry, but I do think it's an important one. And I don't think we've really covered it off yet. So for my final question, Gary, can feeling like an imposter ever be a positive sign that you're actually pushing yourself out of your comfort zone? Can it be a good thing?

It absolutely, I think it is a good thing because I think it shows that you care. So it's definitely a good thing and it does show you're getting out of your comfort zone because it's the reason you've reached this point where you're feeling uncomfortable means that you're kind of outside the box a bit. You are out of your comfort zone. So I think by the fact that you're out of your comfort zone, and if you didn't care about it, you wouldn't feel it. So a lot of people that don't have it, it doesn't mean that they don't care, but they might be being arrogant about it or believing their own stuff.

Yeah.

So I think it's a really good question. I do think that it's a good thing to have it.

Yeah.

Because I just think it's a balance, right? We talked about confident vulnerability, and I think it's the same with this. If you're too confident, you're arrogant, and if you're too vulnerable, you're needy. And I think it's the same with imposter syndrome. It's like, have it, don't let it run you over.

Nice t-shirt, potentially. Imposter syndrome, have it, don't let it run you over. Just spinning back around this way a second. I've got one final sort of—

Quite nice, this bit. It's better than the grave.

Yeah, it is.

It is.

That feels like a sort of nice manor gardens of some kind. It's beautiful. Not very good if you're listening on audio, but do watch it on YouTube if you get a chance. I've got a friend, it's not me.

Is it Critical?

Who is going through this at the moment. Oh yeah. Going sort of following a new career path. He's slightly worried that he's gonna get found out. I think it's fair to say that you had a similar sort of moment in your 30s, was it? When you decided to go it alone.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I do have a story.

For the first time.

I wondered whether you could relate that story, 'cause I think he would find it useful. I think a lot of people—

Your friend, yeah, your Critical friend.

The same thing would also find it useful.

Yeah, well, it's a good point because when we do these things, I come across like I've never had a problem and don't know what your problem is, mate. But early in my business consulting career, I was in New York and so I was trying to network and I met with this sort of head of learning and development for a coffee. And he said, look, there's a CEO in our UK business that needs coaching. And I went, okay. So he's like, I'll set up a meeting with the chairman of the company. So I go to the building, I won't say what company it was, go to the top floor, thick carpet, massive office, meet the chairman and he's talking to me and then Even as I was walking into his office, I thought, what the hell am I doing here? The guy that he wanted me to coach earned £1 million a year, and I'd only just started in my career. Yeah. You know, I was charging £1.50 and a t-shirt to do the coaching. And I did have a moment, thought, why the hell would a guy earning £1 million in a thick shag pile office want to get any advice from me? And then when I met the guy, we got on really well. I coached him for a number of years. You know, I really helped him, but only because he was a really good guy and we built a really good friendship. But I do remember that moment, but I stopped myself and thought, it's okay. I know how to do this and I'm good at this. And when I met him, because we got on so well, I realized I could help him.

Yeah. And I think that's the point. I mean, everyone will go through this at some point in their lives. And I think my friends should do the same. Definitely take that on board. Gary, thanks so much. What a lovely walk. What a lovely talk.

It's been great to get up off the armchair and walk and talk again. Yeah. Rather than sit and talk.

I think the sitting down talk, that's so lazy, right?

2025. Yeah.

Thank you all very much for listening. And thank you, Gary Gamp.

It's been great. Thank you. See you guys again soon. Cheers. Bye. Bye.