Coaching without Credentials: how to build authority without a certificate #103

After all, all art is experience. Hello and welcome to The Company Doctor. Today's episode is called Coaching Without Credentials: How to Build Authority Without a Certificate. Now, whether we like it or not, the barrier to entry in coaching is basically non-existent. No universal license, no mandatory degree, and no official gatekeepers. So if qualifications aren't the thing that makes someone credible, what is? In this episode, we're breaking down what actually matters more than certificates, how trust is really built, where people get it wrong, and how to position yourself so you're not just another self-proclaimed expert screaming into the LinkedIn abyss. If you've ever thought about turning your experience into income, or you're side-eyeing the entire coaching industry, this one's for you. Hello, Gary.

George, how are you?

I'm very well, thanks. How are you?

I'm excellent. Thank you very much. I'm really excited about this. We're going to talk coaching.

Yes. This is another one that's been a long time coming. I think it is one which is really pertinent. I hear so many people training and becoming coaches or sort of using coaches in their professional lives. So it's a hot topic right now.

I think it's hot, hot. And actually the title of this episode, which I haven't shared with you, is how to coach without having to be qualified. Because I think I speak to a lot of people that go on the kind of 3-year training course to be a coach, and by the time they come out, they've missed the opportunity. Yeah, it's probably a bit rude if you've just been on it, but you know.

Well, no, that's a really interesting take, and I'm glad that I now know the topic of this, uh, this episode, because I think that— I'm just telling you, I do think it's interesting, and I think that it might spark a bit of debate, that as well. So let's get into the weeds of it.

Good. Is this gonna be a controversial episode?

It could be. We haven't done many of those, but it'd be good to, to spark a bit of controversy. No, it isn't.

Yeah. We'll definitely do that. Well, you know, as always, George, you know, there's 3 parts always, right? Yeah. And I unusually tell people what the 3 parts are so that they can follow me. 'Cause we're trying to teach people to do this without qualifications. So gotta give 'em a bit of a path. The 3 parts are connect, challenge, and commit. And we're going to start with the connect bit. But before we do, I just wanted to share a bit of a revelation I've had. Yes, because over my career, I've coached a lot of people, a lot of senior execs, and I've trained a lot of people on coaching without bigging myself up. And a lot of the time it hasn't worked, which is a bad start for this episode. Yeah.

Here's how not to be a good coach.

And you're supposed to ask me why.

Yeah, I'd love to know why.

Oh, good. Well, thanks for asking because this revelation is game-changing. Wow. What I realized, yeah, I know you're excited about, and it links to another episode of ours, thankfully. What I found is if you teach someone how to coach, but their mind isn't in the right place, that just doesn't work. Like a lot of sales leaders need to be coaches and they understand it and I can prove factually that coaching a sales team can improve the performance by 19%. I can show you. I know you're—

it's impressive.

Yeah. But if you don't do it through a growth mindset, it doesn't work. And it's taken me many, many years to work this out. And I want to share this with people listening. If you want to increase the chance of coaching being successful, apart from learning how to coach, you've got to do it through a growth mindset. And Even just sharing the person you're coaching with the principles of growth mindset will open their mind to it.

Fantastic. And this is what Company Doctors is all about really, isn't it? Because, you know, this is, you've done all the hard work so that our listeners don't have to in a way. You've done, you've been through, you've been on the journey, you've got the experience and we're going to impart that over the next—

I've failed for you. I mean, by the way, it doesn't mean I'm right. You're probably, people listening thinking, what does he know? But anyway, I'm going to have a go.

No, that's interesting. And the growth mindset thing is good. And as you said, we've got a whole episode on that.

Episode 80. For those of you that don't know what it is, listen to episode 80 and in half an hour you'll be an expert. Expert. But generally, if you can explain to the person you're coaching the principles of growth mindset— don't punch them in the face with it, but just get them to be growth mindset, not fixed mindset— you'll have a better result. And this is part of the first, the connect. Um, you've got to be able to calibrate with the person. They've got to be coached by you. Yeah, which is a bit of an issue, isn't it? If you're a manager and you're like, I'm going to coach my team, and they don't like you or they don't respect you, you're in trouble.

Yeah. And that's quite hard to fake, isn't it? You know, if you're not a sort of likable person, it's quite difficult to suddenly pivot and become that sort of person that people feel that they have a rapport with.

Yeah, I think this is an important one though, because if you feel, and it might not be because they don't like you, but they may not relate to you. And if you know that, it might be better to find someone else to coach them. Sometimes people connect better with people. Yeah. But anyway, the starting point is to be able to calibrate with someone because if you can't do that, you know, if the goal of coaching is the outcome, because we always talk about outcomes, then if you're just going through the motions, and that's why I had that bit of a eureka moment, then you're wasting your time and someone else's time. Right. So that's the first thing. And I think the way you do that is what's the best way to calibrate with someone so they're open to share with you? Hmm.

Well, spending time with them, I think.

Yes.

Uh, ask, asking them questions.

Ooh, you're good at this.

Is that right?

This is a coaching question, by the way.

Oh.

Yeah. You've been coached right now. And, um, and you didn't even know it. Didn't even feel it coming.

That's the best, best kind of coaching.

Yeah. It's building trust. The best way to build trust is to build a relationship with someone. Now you don't have to go out for dinner with them, but if you invest in someone and get to know them as a person. That's the best way to have a better outcome.

And is that sort of an overall sort of, you know, without getting into too much of it, but sort of personal life, professional ambitions. So you want to sort of get an all-round picture of the person and make sure that you relate to them in that respect.

Yeah, definitely. That's exactly it. So if you think, if I can get to know someone personal and professional, because sometimes I do a lot of training around this and I do an exercise, which is just take 10 minutes with the person you're sitting next to. And get to understand them personally and professionally, past, present, future. If you can do that, you've got yourself in your mind without writing it down. You can have a conversation. So it's like, tell me about you in the past. You know, go back before you started work. What did you used to do? You know, you can kind of get to know the person really well. And when I coach someone, I spend the first coaching session actually getting to know them. I know more about that person in 2 hours than people sitting next to them for 10 years do. And I'm not interrogating them. I'm building a relationship. I'm getting to understand them. I'm taking an interest in them. And they love it because it's the first time everyone's been that interested in them. Yeah. How cool is that?

No, it's a great point because, you know, just sort of thinking again, as I always do about myself, you know, I'd sort of sit with people in my office who I really, really like, get on with really, really well. But actually, when it boils down to it, I don't really know the first thing about them. All I know is that we have a, you know, we can have a laugh about various things, but when it comes to sort of their childhoods or, you know, where they grew up or what they hope to be doing in 5 or 10 years' time. I haven't got the foggiest. So that is something which you have to sort of almost train yourself to do. Cause I think naturally people aren't necessarily geared to be that way. I think some people are, and I know some people who are, but I think the majority of people aren't.

I absolutely agree, George. And by the way, people do this with customers. So anyone in sales, they do this with customers, but they just forget to do it with the people they work with.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And actually, by the way, that framework's a good framework to get to know customers for. There you go. Added value right there. But by the way, be careful what you ask for because sometimes I've done this. This calibration is very hard to explain, but if you invest in getting to know someone in a genuine way, not in one meeting, then people feel safe. There's a psychological safety and they become very open and then stuff comes out you don't want to know. Right.

And then it becomes more like therapy.

Yeah. And you know, we're not therapists. So if you do hit a point where you're thinking, you know what, I'm not qualified for this, then don't try and be. But step back. Yeah. Step back, man. I'm sorry to hear this, but maybe you need proper help. But in principle, people will open up. I remember when I was coaching a CEO of a PLC business and I must have kind of connected with him in the first session. He told me that he was feeling really guilty because he was taking Fridays off. Having lunch with his wife and he felt guilty because he felt he wasn't doing what he needed to do with the team. I went, what? This is brilliant. You've got some balance in your life and you're still getting results. That's not such a bad thing. But the fact he told me that, I've never met him. Yeah. And you know that you've kind of connected with someone if they're willing to share with you. And sometimes, you know, there's tears, but you know, the main thing is that your job is to connect with someone so that the relationship is, they feel safe enough to talk to you properly because if they're guarded, that's why it has to be private. If you're going to coach someone, you can't share what they've told you with someone else. And sometimes a manager will ask you to coach someone, and what you should do is get input on the things they want you to focus on, but you can't go back to them because otherwise you lose the trust. So I think it's really important to have that trust.

And do you know sort of instinctively when you've reached that point, or if you haven't and you never will? Like, is there a sort of moment where you think, right, here we go, we're ready for the coaching to begin? Or, you know, this guy or person isn't going to be receptive to my style of pitching?

You know what, that's a great question and it's part of my challenge actually when I go to the next base. But the principle, it's very hard to really know, but from experience you get to know and it's a bit like, think about, um, if you eat chicken, you can only eat it when it's cooked. If you go to challenge before the person's cooked, it normally takes longer than you think. So you might have to have more sessions to build the relationship. But is there a magic indicator? Uh, probably isn't. People ask me, you just sense it. It's a bit, you know, about you have to earn the right to tell people that baby's ugly. It's kind of like that. Don't tell them they're ugly though. That never goes down well. Well, you can if you want to fall out with them. Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's kind of really important to build that relationship, earn the right, get to know them as a person. And actually you end up joining the dots because you find out that when they were younger, you know, their big brother had all the glory. And because of that, they're over trying to prove themselves. Things come up that I'm not a psychologist, but things come up. Becomes bloody obvious, actually.

And Gary, should you tell the person that this is what you're doing? And you may come on to this, but should you sort of say, listen, these first sessions are us just getting to know each other? Like the hard coaching isn't going to begin yet. This is us just sort of—

Yeah, I do. I actually tell them that I say to them, I'll get more out of this than you will. The truth is, it's not true. It's the opposite. Because I want to get to know you as a person and for you to get to know me as well. So I need to be open about myself as well. Yeah. So that we're having it, I'm vulnerable, but not So vulnerable that I come across as a bit needy, but I'm vulnerable enough that I'm with there. You know, you get to know me, I get to know you. I think it's really important. And then kind of connected to that is the environment that you're in because you're better not being in the office to do this. We've spoken about this on other episodes. The secret is, what is the position for the secret, George? Secret to getting someone to tell you stuff is what?

Oh, side by side.

Yeah, side by side. Because you're not challenging someone directly. If you're face to face with someone, it's almost like a challenge. Whereas if I'm side by side, and I told the story of my son in the car asking what he did the weekend, he tells me everything in the car because we're side by side. But if I ask him, he's like, give me cash and I'll tell you, you know, it's that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's really important to be out of the office in a coffee bar. Now I've told this story before where I was coaching this guy and he was very formal and calling me Mr.

Gamp and stuff like that.

And then we leave the building, go over the road into the coffee bar, like Costa Coffee. And he's like a normal person. You know what? It's bizarre. And then as we came back in the office, I could see him stiffen up. Now, Mr. Gamp again, not quite, but you know what I mean? It's like, so 180 degrees outside the office, relax into it because you want people to open up to you, but you have to invest in building a relationship. Does that make sense?

It does. That's a great part one.

That's my part one. What about part 2? Well, don't do part 2 unless you've done part 1. This is the point. And part of the issue is that we keep having discussions with people about coaching versus mentoring. Has this come up in your world?

Uh, it hasn't, but I think it's come up in conversations between us in the past.

Oh, okay. Well, what do you think the difference is between a coach and a mentor? It's not a trick question.

Yeah, it's a tough question though. Cause you know, I think a lot of people will confuse the two and just assume that they're the same thing. I see a mentor more of like a role model, I suppose. Whereas a coach is more someone on your level helping to guide you through the difficult parts, sort of hands-on.

Well, almost there. You're so good today, George.

You're all over it. I'm feeling very switched on today. Yeah.

You are really. This is a very good time of day to do this. Yeah. So basically a coach is someone who asks questions and gets people to come up with the answers themselves. You're almost like they've got it in them. You're trying to bring it out. Yeah. It doesn't mean we're soft with people, but it's an opportunity to help people find the answer. Yeah. I've given the example before. I had someone that worked for me that was obsessed with Steve Jobs and he would just keep asking me, dumping problems on me. And one day I said to him, what would Steve Jobs have done? And he went, you do ABC. I said, do that. 'Cause that's a coaching question, isn't it? What would Steve Jobs have done? Anyway, sorry, it's a slightly sarcastic question, but mentoring is more about sharing your experience and being a role model, as you said. And what I've noticed, again, another learning for me, because we're always learning. We did the episode with Andy on mentoring. I realized that I've been treating mentoring as like the poor cousin of coaching. Right. But actually, I think you should do both, not with the same person, or there's different moments in time. So sometimes it is right to mentor someone. And I think people should have a comprehensive mentoring program. Yeah. But today isn't about that. But on the coaching side, it is about asking questions. And the problem with that is that a lot of people don't know when to go from asking to telling. And do I have to be soft with people and do I have to be fluffy? And that's what I want to cover in this little section.

And I suppose you find your own style, don't you? You know, the more you do it, you know, you sort of relax into the way you're going to approach these conversations.

Most definitely you do, George. So what I want to do is just kind of give people a bit of a framework for that. So the first step of challenge is that brilliant question you asked me before, which is when do you do that? Because if coaching is around questioning, when do you move from questioning to challenging? And before I do, I just wanted to kind of give a bit of an analogy. So, okay. One of my favorite things, analogies around coaching is really sport and particularly around tennis. And I remember when Rafa Nadal was top of his game. There was a time, um, over an 18-month period where, before he retired, but he kind of lost his mojo and he went from being amazing to being not so great. And a lot of tennis, but, you know, Djokovic has been like that. Now it's probably because of his age more than anything else. But Rafa's coach was Uncle Tony. Yeah. So Tony Nadal was his coach. He was a brilliant coach. He got him there, right? But he kind of got to the point where he wasn't the right guy. Yeah. And he switched to Carlos Moya. And then it was just like, got his mojo back in it. And I think sometimes, you know, if you're being coached and you're not progressing, it's because you're not connecting together. Though you might have lost your mojo as the coachee, the person might not have the skills to coach you. It might not be challenging you enough. And I just wanted to mention that now because, uh, it's a very difficult dance between when you're coaching and challenging. People don't think they go in the same sentence. I just want to show you how you might do that. Is that okay?

Yeah, absolutely. And you're right. I think some people might find it difficult to be challenged. And as you say, some people might find it difficult to be the person challenging. So yeah, finding that balance is—

So let me give you some substance to that. Is that okay? Yeah. Yeah. Cool. So if coaching is about asking questions, like powerful questions, what type of questions could you ask? Because when do you move from asking questions to kind of putting the pressure on a little bit. So I've got 3 types of questions that you could ask. One are clarity questions.

I want to know why or how, or what does that mean to you?

Or what happened there? I'll give you some examples in a second. The second one is challenge questions. Because I think there's a point where you've earned the right to tell them their baby's ugly. And therefore you can challenge that center person. And then the third question is around ownership. I think there's some questions you can ask people around ownership questions. So I'm going to give you an example.

I was going to jump the gun, but I'm going to jump the gun.

I love it when you do that.

Well, in terms of ownership questions, is that like, so what do you think you could do now in order to do X, Y, and Z?

Is that so? Yeah, you've definitely jumped the gun. I'll come back to that.

Yeah.

Okay. Should I take it out of the order? But yeah, so let's think about the person you're coaching now. So this is coaching that you don't have to go and get a certification for. People are either in their lives are either effective or engaged, or they're not. They're either effective or not effective. They're either engaged or not engaged. And the place where coaching works the best, bear in mind you could be mentoring or even getting rid of someone, is when someone is super engaged, but they're not being effective. So someone new in a business, or they're like the puppy dog there. They're really keen to impress you, but they're not moving forward. Yeah. Or if they're really effective, but they're not engaged, they've been around the houses a long time. They're kind of, coaching, not coaching, coasting. That's more of an emotional opportunity where if someone's like engaged but not super effective, they're more of an intellectual, it's the how-to. It's not working. Okay. And then if someone is engaged and effective, they're kind of an asset, if you like. Yeah. And if someone's not engaged or effective, they're a liability and they probably should be got rid of. Yeah. But a lot of people don't deal with that. So you can plot your team against effective or engaged. And how they are. And if they're the top right, they're an asset. And if they're the bottom left, they're a liability. And you could work out what to do with them. But the danger is if someone's an asset and they're really good, you tend to leave them alone and that's not good either.

So they need coaching as well.

Yeah. Well, they might not need coaching as much, but they need taken care of. You can't just ignore them and hope they're going to be okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

But the best place for coaching is where someone's, so it's top left where someone's engaged, but not effective. And bottom right where someone is effective but not engaged. Okay. And that's the best place to help them. And I'm going to give you some examples of things, questions. So on the clarity side, if I give you clarity, challenge, and ownership questions as examples, does that help? Yep.

That would be very helpful.

Thank you for that. So I'll just give you a couple of examples. I've got so many, so I don't want to spend too much time, but if someone is You know, basically an underperformer and I just can't get through to them. So I'm a manager, I've got an underperformer and I want a clarity question. I might say something like, when you think about your performance, how would you describe where you are right now? Because I'm getting them to tell me how they think they are, because maybe they think they're amazing when they're not. Yeah. And then what things have you tried to improve and what happened when you did it?

Just a quick side note there, as the coach, are you, when you ask these questions, are you sort of taking notes? Are you reacting or are you just letting them?

Well, I always take notes because I'm old and I think it's important to take notes because you'll need to refer back because at the end of this, I'm going to show you when we do commit what we do with that. So definitely take notes. I mean, these days there's lots of apps that can record things. I don't think it's a good idea in coaching. No. Because it sounds like you're checking up on someone. So I wouldn't recommend it. So don't use your tech. Note takers are turning up to meetings before me these days. Have you noticed that? People have these AI note takers. Don't use your AI note taker. Don't be lazy. If someone is an investment opportunity, so they're kind of competent engaging emotionally, when was the last time you genuinely felt proud of something you did at work? And what was it? Mm-hmm. What changed for you over the last 6 to 12 months? You had your mojo. It feels like you're not in the same space now. What's up? Yeah. Yeah. Things like that. They're kind of clarity type questions. If someone is an asset, you might say, you know, where do you feel you're growing the fastest at the moment? And where has it leveled off? It's just trying to think, not just asking open and closed questions, but just ask questions to get people to think.

Yeah. Well, that's it. It sort of forces people to be a bit introspective and ask themselves questions that they never would otherwise ask themselves.

And actually, I think we don't do this very often. I'm happy to put some example questions in the notes for the episode. For help. Yeah, that'd be great. Let's give you a couple examples of challenging questions. So underperformer can't get through to them. What are you assuming about yourself or this job that might be keeping you stuck? What part of this do you feel you're generally avoiding right now? Or if you're investment opportunity competent person, what stories do you tell yourself about this job or this company that might be lowering your energy? Nice.

These are good, well-worded questions, these.

You're welcome. If you're an asset, what do you think you might be playing a bit safe at the moment? Because they're like doing really well over there. Is there something you're not doing so well? Yeah. Again, another one for investment opportunity. What do you think you might be leaving on the table at the moment? There's things like that. And they have to be relevant to the role, right? I'm just giving you some examples. And just quickly, I'm going to give you some ownership questions because you asked me at the beginning and you were definitely ahead of your time. Yeah. Underperformer, given everything we've talked about, what feels like the most important thing for you to change first? What's one small step you're willing to take this week to move things forward? Nice. You like that, don't you?

Yeah, I do.

I like all of those. Investment opportunity. What's the one thing you could change in how you work that you believe would make your day or make your day more enjoyable?

Yeah, that's great.

Which aspects of the role do you want to lean into more? Because they play to your strengths. And then for an asset, what's the stretch goal that genuinely excites you? Not just one that's safe. That's cool.

Yeah.

So the challenge thing is, so you have to wait for someone to be cooked, but you can ask questions that are challenging once they're cooked, once you've earned the right. And if you continue to build the relationship and you should challenge people. And then if you want to ask someone more directly, have you ever been in a situation where you think you're like, there's a lot of questions, but I want to tell them something? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, my recommendation on this is you don't do it too quickly, but basically then you can say, look, would you be open to me being quite direct with you? Because once they've told you, then you can tell her. Yeah.

And that's where you sort of give your thoughts based on all the answers they've given.

Yeah, exactly. And be more specific. And then it does sound a bit like mentoring, but you can tell them specifically, you know, based on what I've seen before, you'd be really good at this if you do this. You told me that you used to be good at that. Why don't you get back to doing that? Or you said you don't have time. Why don't you give yourself, book an hour of your own time and go and brainstorm with yourself or something and come up with the answer?

Yeah, because people just don't dedicate the time themselves to be asking themselves these questions.

So I think it's— they don't. And I think that, you know, an important wrap on all of this is that you need to set time aside, as I say, preferably outside the office. I know people are remote, but even you can do this remotely, but it's not, it's not great. But if you book time, keep to it. The worst thing you can do is to cancel it. Yeah. Because you lose your credibility. Or be late. Or be late. Or not have the film rolling, you know? Those sort of things don't help. And the last one is commit. Commit's the amazing one for me. It's like, you know, a lot of people have these discussions and then nothing happens, right? But bear in mind, we're trying to do this with a growth mindset in mind. Once you share the growth mindset with someone, episode 80, another ad, then the principle of a growth mindset is that you're always looking to develop and have an opportunity to grow. So therefore it's not a one-hit thing, but you can hold people to account. Any ideas? Yeah. What's the best way to hold someone to account on a coaching session?

Oh, well, I suppose you give them like a challenge for the following session. Or so say by next week, you know, that question you said a minute ago, what step could you take this week to make your day more enjoyable or to progress or whatever it was? Can you sort of say, right, I'm going to hold you to that. And next week I'd like you to let me know how that went.

I absolutely love that, George. Absolutely. That's a great idea. I hadn't even thought about that one. So let's add that one in. But at the end of the meeting, what I'll say to someone is, right, okay, you know, let's talk through what we've discussed. And I get them to tell me, I say, look, drop me an email with the 3 things that you're going to do that you committed to do. And then next time we can talk it through and get them to do it. Don't you do it. Because then they've said what they're going to do and you can hold them to account. So next time you meet up with them, then discuss it. And if it didn't move forward, ask why. Yeah. You said this was really important. I didn't have time to do it, but what could you do next time to make sure you do?

And that's not, you know, putting them in trouble or sort of telling them off.

No, no, but I think it's trying to bring it to life. You're coaching to help, right? Uh-huh. And you have to give people time to germinate in a way. But I think people get confused with coaching. I think it's a fluffy thing where you just listen to people and you ask questions and you have a love in. That's not what this is about. This is about outcomes. So I'm trying to make them better, but I don't have to fix it in one session either. So it's not like we're trying to, you know, at the end of this, we've fixed the world. It's not going to work like that. You're on a journey. So you have to prioritize, you know, and part of those questions will be, what's the, what are the priorities? What's the one thing we need to do to move the dial next time or whatever? But I think it's learning to ask questions. And the best way to do that is to think of things that are more what if, what would happen if. Yeah. Try and take yourself out of it and try and think of different ways of asking questions.

Sort of hypothetical.

Yeah. Hypothetical questions because, um, sometimes you get stuck, but a good example for me is there was a guy who was being, he was just fed up at work. He'd had enough of it. And in fairness, you know, things he'd been through, I get it why he'd be like that, but he was a really good guy.. And I said to him, look, I understand why you're feeling this way, but you know, there's two options. If it's that bad, then leave. Right. But if I hired you as a consultant to fix the things you mentioned, what would you do? And he said, I would do these three things. And I said, okay, well, is that a good place to start? Which one's most important out of the three? And he went, this one. I went, well, why didn't you do that?

Yeah.

You know, it's just like, that's a coaching question. Mm-hmm. Because when someone's down in the dumps, like my job is to bring them back up again. Now, and ultimately, if it is that bad, then he should leave, right? Yeah. Yeah. Or if it contravenes your values or whatever, right? Yeah.

But until then, you know, there could very well be a fix. There's sort of like this staring in the face.

Yeah. And as a coach, you've gotta be positive enough to think that you can help with some of those things. Yeah.

Yeah.

The other way is to, you know, basically buddy someone up. Mm-hmm. So if there's someone who's really good at something that they're not good at, then buddy them up.

Well, with someone who is very good at it.

Yeah. And vice versa, right? They're going to be good at something. So if someone's struggling, they're like really excited, but they're not moving forward. What is the thing that's holding them back? And is there someone else in the team who's really good at it? Why not buddy them up? One of my favorite things to do is to put operations guys into sales and vice versa for a day. Yeah. Then everyone understands where everyone else is coming from. And how hard it is.

I think that's a massive challenge for people in organizations, isn't it? You know, there are so many siloed teams, you know, keeping themselves busy, but no one really knows what each other is doing. So it's hard to have that understanding.

It is.

Um, so the buddying up thing is good.

That's kind of it, but I have got 3 takeaways.

Okay. I had some, um, you got more questions? Let's do it. Well, I had a couple of secret questions for you, but you've just barely answered them as we've gone along.

There must be one I haven't covered. I can't be that good.

Well, you pretty much have. I guess one I can ask is, you know, coming at this from a slightly different angle, as a leader, and you may have covered this already, but as a leader of a team, how do you know when it's time to start seeking coaching for your team members? And I think you did cover this with the matrix, you know, top right or bottom left.

I think the truth is that coaching is not the right answer for most people, right? It's for some people. And it's normally someone, you know, I normally coach people that are kind of going in the right direction. Like if someone is a performance issue. They're not the right people to coach. Coaching's not the answer for performance. Coaching is the answer for people that are going the right way, but they're just slightly off piece. So I think that's the thing to think about. So they're either engaged or they're performing, but they're not engaged. That's normally a motivation problem, actually. Yeah. Okay. And that's why I think if you work out, are people effective or engaged or not? And then from that, work out who should be coached and who should be mentored. And then it should be exited. Yeah.

Yeah. Those are your three options.

There you go. It's a bit harsh, but that's kind of how it is.

No, no, I think it's the way it's got to be. And then the other thing I was going to say was, and you sort of covered this as well, but, you know, is there an end? And by which I mean, how do you know? Obviously you sort of set out the priorities. Is it a case of once those priorities have been met, you sort of taper it off and then you leave it? Or do you say, listen, this coaching is going to take place over the next 6 weeks. And if we haven't done it by the end of those 6 weeks, then too bad. Okay.

I thought you were asking me something else. Yeah. Well, there's 2 things to say. Um, I think you have to show how important it is and you reinforce the behaviors of importance by making sure that you turn up and that you hold people to account and make sure that if they don't turn up, you, you take that seriously. And then there's an issue with coaching because if you coach well, people become needy. Yeah. They kind of feel that they need you and they don't want you to go. And your job as a coach is to get off me. Yeah. Yeah. Get off me. Go, go flee the nest. You know, it's like, yeah, go flee the nest. It doesn't mean that I won't check in and continue to coach you, but yeah, people become a little bit needy because they're benefiting from it and you need them to flee the nest, but you don't want to completely disengage, if that makes sense.

Okay.

Yeah. Let them flee up on their own. So it's a bit of a challenge.

And last one from me because we're running out of time, but this has obviously been a masterclass in coaching, but for people who are looking to sort of expand on their learnings, what's a good place to start? Have you got any books that you could recommend? This is putting you on the spot a bit, but you know, are there books, podcasts? What's another step that they can take after listening to this excellent episode?

There's a couple of books I would recommend to people. The other thing is I think people should just get started. Yeah, it's not going to go wrong. It's better to coach than to not do anything. And so if you're a manager, for example, I would suggest you start with a couple of people, follow the advice. So I'm going to share my takeaways, but I think that answers your question. The first one is, you know, it's not obvious, but the most important thing you need to do for coaching is to build a relationship. You have to earn the right. Now you may think, well, I'm the boss, I don't need to earn the right. You do. If you want the outcome, you need to underwrite, but it doesn't mean it's a love affair. So I would pick a couple of people and get to know them as people. You don't have to say, right, I have to do this because people are paying me to coach, right? So I have to signpost that I'm having a session with them till I get to know them. But you can just take out someone out for a drink or for dinner or for coffee or something and say, let's get to know each other. You don't have to signpost that. So that's my first takeaway. My second takeaway is that You know, I can't describe to you when the moment is, but before you challenge, you have to keep going until you feel they're cooked. Is the chicken cooked? If it's not, yeah, don't challenge that. Because if you challenge them when they're not cooked, it doesn't work. Yeah, it will go the opposite. They're digging their heels in to show them that you're wrong.

That feels to me the most important point.

But anyway, and the third thing is, you know, hold people to account. It's not soft. You know, coaching isn't about being fluffy. It's about getting the outcome and helping people. You're helping there. So hold people to account, but the most important thing of holding people to account isn't being aggressive. It's your behavior. You know, reinforce behaviors that you want to happen. So it's not a good thing if someone doesn't do what they said they were going to do. So, but also they'll see the benefit of doing what they're doing. And because basically one-on-one makes more than two by having access to you as a coach. So they're really benefiting from you, but also not everything needs coaching. It's not all a round hole that needs a coach. Sometimes it's a square hole that needs a mentor or unless there's some performance required. Nice. That's all I got for you on coaching that you don't need a qualification for. Enjoy. I hope it works well.

Well, likewise. Yes. Good luck, everybody. And thank you so much, Gary, as always. I think we should do one on mentoring at some point just to really draw that distinction.

Let's do it.

But yes, thank you for listening and we'll see you next time.

See you again soon.

Thanks for tuning in to The Company Doctor. If you've enjoyed this episode, do head over to thecompanydoctor.com to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with your pals, especially those looking to build real authority in the coaching world. Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time.