Walk & Talk 5: Escape to the Cape: Rediscover the Secret Power of Stepping Away #97

Wow, what an adventure we're on here. We're being eaten alive by mosquitoes.

You can hear them live.

Yeah, you can hear them eating us.

This boardwalk is cool, isn't it? It's a very cool boardwalk.

Yeah, mosquitoes aside, we're very lucky to be here. We're in Cape Cod. We've escaped to the Cape, and we, you know, after our Jaws adventure on Amity Island We've moved over to the Cape and it's not sharks, it's mosquitoes.

And there's loads of them.

And there's absolutely loads of them. But we're going to battle through, I hope. And we're going to be talking today about the power of the escape. I've sort of preliminarily named this episode Escape to the Cape: Rediscover the Secret Power of Stepping Away.

Love it.

And it's all about the importance of that. And we're just going to sort of dive into it because if we stand still for too long, we'll be eaten alive. You'll see us. Yeah, you'll see it happen before your very eyes. So Gary, kicking off, if you can.

Yeah, try to, in between being eaten, you mean?

Yeah, in between all of that sort of business.

Why—

well, not why do— do you think most of our important decisions come after we stop trying to solve them?

That's a great question, you know, and actually on this trip we've had time to reflect because normally running like 120 miles an hour. Yeah. And actually, although you solve problems because you're running fast and you have I don't think you have the quality that sometimes you need to from setting back. Yeah, and I've noticed from this particular trip we've had a chance to kind of process, rethink, put things in perspective. So yeah, I think it's massively important.

Yeah, and in terms of sort of the ideas, you know, why is it that you think it comes, you know, when it comes to decision-making and coming up with new ideas, that that happens when we do decide to step away and we do take a take a trip to Mosquito Island.

Yeah, actually, I think, and I was reflecting on this in the past, I remember my best customer meeting. Yeah, it was with a customer where I went to meet him in the office and they had a lake by the office, and he said, do you want to come for a walk around the lake? I went, okay, I've never been asked that before, but yes, it sounds great. And we had the best meeting because we were kind of relaxed. Yeah. And we had time to just be normal. Yeah. And have a kind of adult-to-adult conversation. And I think it's the same. I think if you, like we're doing now, apart from the mosquitoes killing us. Yeah. You just got the chance to kind of, I think your brain just goes into a different place. Yeah.

Different perspective, different backdrop allows you to think differently.

It really does. And the mosquitoes are landing on my phone as we speak.

Yeah, it's incredible.

I've never seen this happen. I'm sure I'm as relaxed as I was expecting to be in this boardwalk.

It adds another challenge, doesn't it? But I think we're all about the challenges.

Yeah.

And I think we're doing pretty well. Um, is, in your opinion, the idea of stepping away and the escape, is that underrated when it comes to high-performance business culture?

I think it is. I think what happened in the '90s, everyone had these away days all the time. Yeah. And then everyone thought it was a bit of a jolly, but actually a lot of friendships were built during those times and You know, some people say, you know, a holiday, no matter what it is, is, um, you know, a break is as good as a rest sometimes. Yeah. And I do, I do think it is underrated. I think it feels like you're on a jolly, or you're, you're not, you've got to be driving. Yeah. You're gonna be driving forward as you're going backwards, but which is true in some things. But, um, I remember a little analogy about a guy who was the best, um, axeman, is that the right word? No, lumberjack is the word I'm searching for. And he lost his mojo, and the reason he lost his mojo is he forgot to sharpen his axe. Yeah. And I think that's what you need to do.

Stepping away is sharpening your axe.

Yeah, I think so.

Yeah, I like that. I think it certainly gives you space to think in interesting new ways, and I think that is— that's a good comparison, the sharpening of the axe. And do you subscribe to the idea that physical space being in Cape Cod, being in Martha's Vineyard, being in a forest. Do you think there's something, you know, like being by the ocean, is there something about that which creates mental space for a bit of strategic clarity?

I do, actually. I wonder if it's similar to, you know, if you've ever gone to bed on a problem. Yeah. And by the morning you've kind of worked it out. Uh-huh. I wonder if it's the same. Yeah. It feels like it might be. Similar sort of thing. Yeah.

As we say, a different scenario.

It walks you through something in life.

Allows you to, uh, to sort of think about things in a slightly different way.

I think there's some kind of chemistry where mentally you kind of unpack. Yeah, I agree with you.

And have you, because you've worked with a lot of business leaders and this is, you know, this sort of mentality isn't solely the reserve of the employee, you know, high-powered business people, this applies to them as well. Have you worked with leaders who didn't realize that they were burned out and said it was too late? And what do you think are the warning signs of that?

Yeah, I've actually seen a lot of it, uh, and I've probably put myself in the same category because when I was in corporate life, I was running so hard. You don't realize when you're in it, yeah, that your health is affected, that your friendships and relationships are potentially affected. Yeah. Um, you know, I spoke to someone recently that left corporate life, um, and just the moment I saw him, he looked so much different. Yeah. And more relaxed because he'd been on a bit of a Yeah, and we had a discussion about it and he said the same, like when you're, when you're in the middle of it, the adrenaline's pumping, you've got to do what you've got to do and you're getting paid money and all that stuff. He said he didn't realize until after, when he was out of it. Yeah, yeah, it makes a difference to your relationships with your family or your spouse, your partner. And, and I don't think it's just about being on your own either. I just, I think it, it works the same when as a team or as a friendship, you're— thank you, feeding me now— you're taking time to— we're going this way. Yeah. Uh, you know, to reflect together, because I think it just gives you a different environment to think things through, whereas you're normally— yeah, it's the same old, same old, isn't it?

So it's not just taking yourself off for a solo bit of reflection, it's just, it's just changing up the routine, isn't it? It's getting out into something totally different to allow you to Yeah, to reset. And whether you're a business leader or not.

There is a psychology to it as well. And the psychology of the walking around the lake or us walking around the boardwalk, forgetting the individual solace, is 45 degrees. Do you remember that?

Ah, I do remember this, but I'm sure a lot of people listening won't have heard this.

So maybe you could— Yeah, I made this discovery when my son was a teenager. And if you ever ask a teenager what they did last night, you normally get this weird answer. Sometimes I say, "Give me cash and I'll tell you," but generally they don't tell you anything. Yeah. And I remember once I was driving in the car with my son, looking straight forward outside the window, but not looking at him. Yeah. And asking questions, and he told me everything.

Yeah. And that's just a sort of an eye contact thing, isn't it? Or like a comfort thing?

Yeah, it's less threatening, but it's also you're more relaxed. Your brain is not being defensive.

Yeah.

And, and it's the same whenever I do coaching. I said at 45 degrees, because if you set at 45 degrees, yeah, people are much more open. I've had this before when I've coached someone and they're, they're very formal. I never coach people in the office. I remember meeting this guy and he called me Mr. Gamp, and then we went over the road for coffee and he was like a normal person. Yeah, yeah. So I think it's— there's a psychology to this.

Yeah.

Apart from taking the time and, and stopping the old machine going. Yeah. I think when you're with others and you're just being normal, I think better things happen.

Nice. And in terms of the leaders, you mentioned some of the people that you've seen having a bit of a burnout. What happens to a company, do you think, when that starts happening? If a leader is running on fumes but isn't prepared to admit it, what are the repercussions from a company perspective?

Well, this is kind of ironic, isn't it? Because the natural go-to on high-performing teams is you need to be driven and— Yeah. You need to accelerate and, you know, people use words like accelerate, grow, drive, you know, all that stuff.

Yeah, yeah.

Which I do agree with. But actually I think it's counterintuitive because I think it's been proven from many research studies and also just from this conversation, I'm sure people have had the same experience where it's actually counterintuitive. I think it's sometimes the opposite. Yeah. Sometimes you shouldn't be driving, you should be thinking and processing. And collaborating. Yeah. Um, rather than driving. Sometimes it's not the place to drive. I remember once I, I was running a consulting business and I went to the board to present my ideas and they— the board shot my ideas down. Don't know why, I'm such a great guy, but hey, these things happen. And I came out, I was a bit deflated, but I just thought, you know, I just— it was me, I didn't plan it right or whatever. Yeah. And I remember someone in my team who used to be a quite senior military guy. Okay. And I'm only mentioning it because he was in something like the Special Boat Squad where you'd go, go, go. And yeah, and so when I came out, I was deflated. He was like, right, let's go again, we're gonna go do this, we're gonna do— I went, hold on a minute, just give me a minute, take a second, let's take a second and reflect. So let's actually analyze what happened, let's think about what we did well and what we maybe need to improve on. Are we on the wrong strategy? And let's just stop and why don't we sleep on it?

Yeah, yeah, there's a lot to be said for that. And I think obviously there are benefits to both attitudes, but I think certainly you need a bit of both in order to progress. And talking about strategy, I read earlier that the Kennedys, apparently the Kennedy family, allegedly, yeah, they famously ran a strategy, ran their family strategy meetings not far from where we are right now. How much, when we go on these sort of little breaks and these resets, how much time do you think we should be strategizing and thinking about the next step? And how much time should we just sort of be walking around on mosquito-infested boardwalks?

I think people overplan things because they're trying to fill time. You know, sometimes when you're having a conversation, there's a— if there's a gap, people feel a bit embarrassed by the silence. Yeah. But again, I think it's counterintuitive. I think if you're going to take some time out with your team or on your own or with a with a small group, then give yourself time to think and to talk and not to cram an agenda full of stuff and presentations. And there's a place for it, but actually I think it's much more powerful to, to just talk. Yeah, you can have a kind of a rough agenda or a rough direction. Yeah, just let's talk this morning about, yeah, ideas maybe we haven't thought about before to grow or whatever, but don't Don't choreograph too much.

Yeah, it's not the point of the whole trip, is it?

It's not. I think it's more, you know, people sometimes say it's more about the networking, but what they mean by that is I had a chance to talk. It might be people from different countries where I get different advice from people that have done this before. But don't underestimate the power of that. It doesn't mean you're not doing something. People are so focused on doing, they think that you've got to be doing all the time. Sometimes stop doing. Don't do, but Be.

Yes, nice. I like that. I like that a lot. And, um, you know, how do you— because I'm sure there are some people that will take advantage of people's willingness to, uh, to let you go on these, these sort of little getaways and escapes and things like that. And obviously you can take some of it as holiday, but how do you differentiate? And I guess this can be from a, from a leader's perspective as well. How can you tell the difference between someone who's sort of running away from their work and potentially running away from their problems and someone who's resetting for the right reasons?

Yeah, it's a difficult question to answer really, because I think it depends on the individual, because sometimes you'll get both, won't you, in all environments. Yeah. But if you're intentionally planning— I was watching, uh, on CNN actually yesterday, there was the Prime Minister from New Zealand whose name eludes me for the moment, Jacinda Ardern, and she was reflecting on her time as a leader, and she said— yeah, exactly, yeah. And she was saying people underestimate leadership about being kind to people and thinking about, you know, what you're there for. You're there to help a company grow, or as a prime minister, she's there to look after the citizens as well. Yeah. And she felt that you end up not doing that because of the pressures. Yeah. Now I think it's the same in corporate life. It's like, be kind to people and think about, you know, people are coming to work to earn money, but to be part of something and be part of a purpose. It's not like— don't be so transactional about everything. Yeah, maybe think through what you can do to help people and bring them on the journey, or yeah, think through what they might want.

It's a long-term thing, it's a long-term investment in someone rather than just trying to squeeze the most out of them in the quickest time as possible.

I think it is, because if you think back, you know, if I ask people who's your best boss, yeah, and why are they your best boss, it's normally because they They weren't necessarily easy, but there was something about them. They thought through your lens a bit more and tried to help you. And sometimes they were hard with you to help you, but they were normally trying to—

Just for your benefit.

Yeah, look through your lens.

And do you think that these ideas of sabbaticals and strategic breaks, do you think they're becoming a bit more accepted in business? Or are they still viewed as indulgent or not taboo, but are they a little bit more accepted in the business landscape? At the moment.

Yeah, I don't know, it's a hard thing, isn't it? Because I think we've kind of tipped to the— a little bit too woke at one level, so people don't feel comfortable with it. Yeah, as a business owner, it is difficult if someone's away for a long period of time. Yeah, you see the benefit of it. So I don't know if you need to take a year out, but yeah, sometimes even just a few days or a different environment will make the difference. Like, you know, 10 days or 12 days for us on a vacation makes a big difference, as an example.

I think it's a reset rather than a total sort of— yeah, okay, that's interesting. Um, got a few more questions for you.

You're doing great, and we're not even being bitten alive considering the circumstances.

I think we're both doing pretty well. Um, what is— no, I'm not going to answer that. I'm not going to ask that one. Um, I've got two last questions for you. Go for it, George. Um, what are the key questions the leader should ask themselves? That's a mosquito on my head, sorry. What are the key questions a leader should ask themselves to know if it's time to step back and reset?

Oh, it's not an easy one to answer. I think, I think people intuitively know when they're a bit burnt out. They're getting grumpy at home. Yeah, I think the first thing to say is that your life is connected, so whatever happens at work affects your home and vice versa. Yeah. And so if your family are finding you a little bit grumpy, or your team are, yeah, sometimes you should just stop and think about yourself. Yeah. And I think intuitively people know when they're— they need to kind of either take a bit of a step back.

Yeah.

Or to reframe what they're doing. Yeah. I don't know if there's any obvious things. I mean, there will be signs if you got— if you do it too far, you'll get to burnout. So if you're a burnout, you're not feeling well, you're exhausted all the time, you're you know, you're agitated.

Yes.

If you're finding yourself very agitated, then I think you've gone too far. I think people shouldn't get to that stage, mind you. I think you should wait until, you know, maybe it's once a quarter, you should do it anyway.

Yeah, maybe we're getting to that stage where it's actually— it's part of the planning. Yeah, I think that would definitely be beneficial.

Why wait till you burn out?

Yeah, nice. And then my last question for you, Gary.

Yeah. And we'll show people the boardwalk.

Yeah, exactly.

Oh yeah.

Um, my final question is this: if you had one weekend to reset, be that in Cape Cod or Martha's Vineyard or wherever, how would you go about structuring it to get the most value out of that time away?

What a great question to end on. Thank you. And I think you can be anywhere. There's some people like it by the sea or in the countryside. Yeah. There's something very relaxing about the sea, but I would not overschedule it actually. So I think it depends. If I'm like on my own, yeah, or with a small group, then I would just allow— I would just think of a few questions to ask over the day or 2 days or whatever we're together, yeah, just to kind of chew the cut over, yeah, rather than coming up with an agenda or something like that, yeah. There is a lot to be said for doing things together. I don't like fake team events. Like we're going to hug a tree. Enforced fun. Enforced fun. Yeah. But there are activities, you know, like for example, walking through a boardwalk or going cycling together or something.

I certainly recommend that.

Without, you know, making it too difficult. So maybe don't overthink it and just keep the agenda loose. But what I found is if I asked maybe just 2 questions in a morning or an afternoon, Yeah, something for us to talk about, but they need to be good questions, intuitive enough to get a debate going and maybe slightly controversial. Yeah, I think that that's not a bad place to start. And maybe people should do it once a quarter.

Yeah, I think that's a really good takeaway, actually. I think scheduling that in, if you're a leader or a manager, a quarterly getaway or offsite or whatever it may be that's not work-related, but maybe just, you know, it's it provokes some questions and resets the mind, especially from a creative perspective. I think that's definitely, definitely worth doing. Yeah. So thank you, Gary.

Thanks for those questions. I think, you know, just as some parting words, it doesn't matter what country you're in or where you go, don't overthink it, but just find— yeah, I think being outdoors and being able to walk, having a particular situation where you can walk a bit, whatever the weather, I think is probably the best. And being at 45 degrees and having a chance just to chat. Yeah, you know, because, but basically, if you were talking to a friend, think of it that way. Yeah. And get— and just be open-minded. Don't be too controlling. I think it will really open up things and also gets you the opportunity to think differently.

Yeah, which, you know, we could all do with more of.

Life is like, you know, it's like a parachute, only works when it's opened.

Oh, there it is. What a closing remark. Thank you very much, Gary. Thank you all for joining us. And if we don't come back from the cave, it's because we've both been killed, infected by malaria or something. Yeah, exactly. But thank you. We'll see you next time.

See you again soon.

Bye.