Walk & Talk 7: Escape the Tower - what to do if you're feeling trapped in your career #101

After all, all art is experience. So Gary, here we are, and we've got another walk and talk, very special walk and talk, as we've been talking about for a while. I've been talking about it.

You have. And also I made sure that the video is running for this special walk and talk. Where are we, George?

That's crucial. We're at the Tower of London.

We are, aren't we?

As you can see, we haven't got the best view of it here. There are lots of people trying to get the best view.

But it's authentic.

Symbolically, you know, here we are. And, you know, we're here because we're talking about being trapped or imprisoned, if you will, in what you're doing. See what you're doing. There's the link. And it's, you know, it's an interesting topic. You know, I think it happens to a lot of people, perhaps for whatever reason, loyalty. We can come on to the reasons why people end up getting trapped in their career. But, you know, to kick it off, I've got 13 questions for you.

Just the 13? Yeah. I thought this was going to be a quick one, but great, I'm up for it, let's do it.

We can rattle through them.

I feel trapped in your questions.

You will be. The Tower of London, which is where we are, has a long history of holding people captive. But for you, to your mind anyway, Gary, what does it mean to be a prisoner in your own career?

Oh my God. It's a big question at the beginning. Well, I have been thinking about this because I didn't know the questions, but I knew the topic. And I think it's like self-entrapment. Because if people could think about their career in terms of what they wanted rather than what someone else wanted, or be worried about their jobs, they'd probably have no constraints. Prisoner couldn't have constraints, they'd probably do, maybe do something else. So I think it's a self-constraint that is masked as someone else's constraint.

Interesting, because I'm going to come on to sort of—

Okay, maybe I'm saying too much.

But no, no, I like that. It's a good— it's sort of— we're setting the scene here. How do you think someone can tell the difference between being loyal to a job and being stuck inside of it?

Wow. Look, when you start out and you're at school, the first thing is to decide what you want to do when you're at school. So my first question is, are you doing what you want? Was this your dream? Now the truth is, when you're at school, you don't really know what's available until you start working, in fairness. Is this your dream? First of all, very few people are following their dream. And then secondly, do you go home and collect your heels? When people ask you about how's work, do you go, ah, let me tell you, or are you, I love my job. I think that's the starting point. Not everyone can love their job, but do you feel good in your heart? First thing.

Okay, nice, nice. Anything, any more to add there or is it one thought on number 3?

I'm trying to save it because I know that bigger questions are coming. Not that that's not big.

No, there are, there are big.

That's a really big question. But I just think it's about being honest. With yourself about, now for example, if you don't know what's available, what do you like doing? What do you not like doing? And does it tick those boxes? That's a good start. Then you know you're on the right way to being very good.

Nice. Now we were in a very touristy area, so we could attempt a walk and talk, or we could just sort of just hang out.

Just walk a bit, because otherwise it's not a walk and talk.

No, it's just a talk. And anyone can do that, can't they? Gary, what do you think some of the modern chains that keep people locked into their roles are? You know, is it things like money, status, fear, comfort, what keeps people locked into these careers, you know, that they may want to break out of?

Well, I think the number one is fear, but I think a lot of the constraints are invisible constraints. They're kind of created in people's heads. That's easy to say now. I'm kind of an old guy and I live in the South, but I work with a lot of people. I coach a lot of people, and the biggest issue people have is they're worried about their jobs, and that causes people to freeze and not necessarily pursue what they want to do, and that their behavior is in line with what people, they think people want. So I think the biggest one is the fear of either losing a job or not looking good.

Nice. And you know, from a personal angle, have you ever felt trapped in your own career and what helped you break free?

Yeah, I have. You know, to be honest, I fell into my career because my dad noticed that I wasn't very studious and I wanted to learn about computers and he found the job for me. I went, oh yeah, that's a very good idea. But Uh, during my career, there's a few places I've worked, and the biggest issues normally were I didn't like working for someone. So my boss was the reason, not the work itself. Right. I think the biggest reason people leave their jobs if they're brave enough is because you don't like the boss. Uh-huh. And they don't feel needed. Uh-huh. I have been in that situation. It took me a while to realize that was happening, cuz you're so busy and then you get responsibilities, you got house or you got kids. Before you know, you're trapped because making a move is big. And actually what happens is when people have worked for a company— I worked for BT, was my first job, for a certain— I worked there for 10 years, and I heard the stat that if you've been somewhere 10 years and you don't leave, you'll be there forever, right? But once you've left, people move multiple times, and I think that's because they realize it's okay.

Interesting. Yeah, so that's a good sort of stat to, uh, to keep in mind, and it leads me nicely on to my next question, because I know that you're a big fan of reframing mindsets How much do you think this notion of feeling trapped comes from the job itself and how much is a mindset?

Yeah, I think probably a majority is mindset. Look, the way you've got to look at it is this: if you had no constraints, would you do what you're doing right now? I'm talking to you, people. Would you do what you're doing now? And if the answer's no, I'm not saying you should leave your job, but your financial future's in your hands. So if you're not doing what you want to do, doesn't mean you have to go and do something different tomorrow, but it's in your hands. So maybe you should plot and plan something. So I think it is a mindset because you got to believe in yourself. You're very capable. Now you may end up in a job where you're feeling exposed or it's not your right thing, then work to find something that you want to do and try and get back to what your original desire was when you were at school thinking you're going to be, in my case, a bowler. No, not really, a rocket scientist.

Um, so you are your own dungeon master is what you're saying?

Yes. I like that.

We've, we've We've done a t-shirt skit recently, but perhaps, perhaps this is—

Oh, you're creating a new t-shirt? Love it. Look, by the way, as people listening to this, I do need to say this. You're probably listening to me, shut up, Gary. I mean, it's all right for you.

I'm not.

It's all right for you, mates, but it's not an easy thing to do. And you know what? I absolutely agree with you, but it's still in your hands. Your future's in your hands. So it is up to you. I'm not saying it's easy because it isn't, but we're hopefully going to give you some ideas about how to do something about it, aren't we?

Well, yes, we absolutely are. Good.

Can we walk a bit?

You're going to play a big part in that. Yeah, let's walk. I think just before we get onto that though, I wondered whether you had any views on whether you think workplaces are sort of unintentionally designing traps to keep people in the workplace, whether that's through a brilliant culture, reward systems, hierarchy. It's tricky, isn't it? Because, you know, jobs want to keep people, but so they're making more and more attractive offers. I was talking to someone recently who has a 6-month paternity offer package as part of their company's package, which is obviously fantastic. They couldn't believe it. You know, people that I told about that can't believe that that's true. So sort of benefits and things are going out of control to try and keep people. And is that in itself a prison that you can't get out of?

Probably golden handcuffs. By the way, if that's the case, I mean, I'm a bit old for it now, but maybe another kid. Específicamente. Well, I want to try and keep this positive. It's really hard to attract people into a role. People find it very hard to recruit and find the right people. It's very hard to get a good start, but it's equally hard to retain people. And, you know, managers work hard at it. No one ever trains them how to do it. And so because of that, we fall into this potentially in a bit of a trap. Then the other issue is that because we're trying to reward people, yeah, so sometimes that's the golden handcuffs because it keeps people there. On the other hand, I think apathy is the biggest issue, right? Because everyone gets used to what they're earning. It doesn't matter how much you earn, you're just broke at a higher level. That's not what motivates people. What motivates people is sense of purpose. And so it isn't always about the money. I know I coach a lot of people through their careers and I'm much more interested in knowing what they want to do, what gets them motivated and excited. Forget about the money initially. I appreciate that. Please walk over. So golden handcuffs aren't always the answer. And then I think companies also, they do, you know, it's changed now. Like in the 2000s, this is a long time ago for a lot of people, companies had a career path where you kind of went sideways, you got from sales into operations and blah, blah, blah. And it kind of gave you a career ladder. And it was a much more prescriptive way of going up the corporate ladder. But now that doesn't exist. And most companies don't know how to deal with it. And there's no structure and people don't like it. Yeah. So in order to do that, what we do is some managers just focus on certain people that they like and look after them, or even when they do like them, you know, look after them.

I don't know.

Yeah. It's not as simple as it used to be for managing, keeping people, or attracting. No.

And it is definitely a difficult balance, isn't it, between, you know, putting in some good, uh, benefits and perks and sort of essentially tracking someone in their career and getting that sort of retention rate Great art. But we're going to move on to the action, the action side of things.

I love a bit of action. Is this anything to do with dungeons or are we past that now?

I think I may have used my last dungeon metaphor, but you never know. You know, we're freestyling here, aren't we?

Yeah, we are.

So anything can happen. What is the first small step that someone can take if they're starting to feel the walls of their career prison closing in?

I remember a movie like that where the walls just kept coming in. I think it is a bit like that. Look, um, here's my very straightforward suggestion. Take some time, maybe take a couple of days off and go for a walk, clear your head, and stop worrying about how much you're going to earn, how you're going to get the job, how you're going to do something else because you don't know anything else. Forget all that. Now start thinking about what you want, what you like doing, what don't you like doing, and start talking to people, network a little bit, find out what other people are doing, or find a company that you like where maybe there's those sorts of that type of work, even if you don't know what roles to ask, and start filling your head with ideas. Don't do anything, so just sort of create it as a project, find out what's out there. It's quite exciting if you do it. Research companies, go and speak to people, pretend you're interviewing, stand in the middle of London Bridge and interview people, pretend you're important, anything you like to do to get some insights.

Yeah.

And then when you've got that, that's your first step because you've got some ideas in front of you that you can maybe either take further or not. Yeah. Love that.

I really like that. And is it possible, so on the converse of that, to renovate your prison cell, as it were, by which I mean reshape the job you're stuck in rather than looking to quit?

Yes. So yes, absolutely. We did an episode about getting back in your time machine. Where I'm going, Marty, you won't need roads. Listen to that one. But the principle is this, it's like, yes. If you are not as motivated as you were, again, whether you want to or not, I don't know. But if you've got, I think it's a really good thing to do. Go and take some time out again and reinvigorate your career. Think about what worked well, what didn't work well. Is there some networking you can do internally where you are to make some new connections and try and craft your own job? Yeah, one of my best bosses, uh, was in America and he crafted his own job by suggesting the company that he came to the UK. And there's a number of business units. And he said, well, I'll work across these business units, build a team, build a collaboration, and try to build some business for the company. And that's how I met him. And I worked for him for 15 years. That was self-created with his own motivation. So he didn't have to do anything that big. But I think you can reset your job and think about if it was your first day again, knowing what you know now, what could you do differently and better?

Great.

How exciting would that be?

It'd be very exciting. And as you say, the process of that is it can be quite exciting, not with a view to necessarily jumping ship, but just this idea of, you know, keeping an eye on what's out there and starting to put together a little, um, sort of a document of, uh, potentials. And with that in mind, because, you know, obviously renovating your own prison cell is, is great, and that's a very attractive option, there are ways of doing it that we've just covered. If people are looking to get away or to move to a different prison cell or, you know, a different career, um, how can they explore that without running the risk of burning bridges or, you know, this sort of financial security that having a job has. Are there ways of doing that, keeping everyone happy at the same time?

There absolutely are. And people are going to roll their eyes when I say this, and I think you might. Networking is your friend. You've got to get out there, meet people, find out what's going on, and it will open your eyes to the possibilities, the way people are doing things. Are there better ways of doing things? Are there different roles out there? Can I make some new connections? You know, not just externally, but internally. Go and ask to be intentionally mentored by someone. Just put yourself out there. You've got to create your own path. And we're talking about piloting your career. And this is your time to pilot your own career. Now, you may decide not to do anything about it after doing that, but you're not risking anything by doing that. And then you've got some decisions to make. Do I stay or do I go? Is that what— do I go or do I stay?

Or do I go? I think it's The Flash.

The Flash, it is. That's your decision. But you know, you don't have to leave to get on in life. But if you are not happy at work, it's in your hands. That's all I would say. So you can still change it in the job you're in and don't have to leave to get it. There's always a better outside.

That's great. I think that's fantastic advice and I hope that everyone listening to this pays attention to that. That's a golden nugget of info there.

Um, I don't know about that.

Um, I've got 3 more for you.

Okay. I'm gonna turn a bit. Yeah.

Tell you why. Okay.

I bought this brand new selfie stick and it's one of the Hoki Koki 2000s, it's got like bells and whistles on it. Only downside, it looks amazing, bloody heavy though. So I like doing that.

So why don't you swap hands as we sort of do a bit more of the walking and talking?

Let's do that.

Yeah, it's too heavy. You know, yeah. And as we sort of close this episode out, let's get some more of the tower in there. What about a bit of the river?

Bit of London?

Yeah. Yeah.

We are really in London. It's not backdrop.

Yeah, no, for sure. Actually, last time we did one of these, we were in the sweltering heat outside Parliament Square.

Do you remember?

So as you can see, I'm in a beanie hat for those who can see. It is very chilly.

I'm not in a beanie hat. I've got my thick head of hair that keeps me warm.

But Gary, these last 3 questions, I think they're pretty good ones and they do cover ground that we've covered in the past, but I think they're important nonetheless. Do you think the rise of hybrid and remote work has helped people feel freer in work, or has it just created new kinds of confinement?

Ooh, this is great. I must admit, every customer I speak to is grappling with how the hell do I get people back into the office? Is it a good thing? Is it a bad thing? And I think like with all things, the word hybrid, I think a bit of both is really important. But I have reached the conclusion that if you want to grow your career, and Nick Walker talked about it on a recent episode about progressing your career, you've got to be able to build relationships. You know, if you want to learn the trade, you've got to be with people that do the thing that you do. You don't have to do it all the time. I think that's part of the balance. So I think people are shackling their careers by trying to be too remote too long. And sometimes being visible, like if you, here's an example, right? If you're a pilot, you're not gonna work from home. Yeah. Well, maybe you are in the future, but right now you're not. Mm-hmm. And some jobs you can't work from home. And I think no job should you fully work from home or fully work from the office. Mm. So I think it's a key thing now. You'll stand out weirdly. You'll stand out even if you're standing on your own in the office.

It's a start.

Yeah, do it at least twice a week.

That's solid advice as well. I like that pilot analogy. I think, you know, again, if you're piloting a business, piloting a plane, whatever it may be, you need to be visible. You need to be there at the controls in the cockpit. Right. Two more. And this sounds like the last one, but it's not. What's one piece of advice that you give someone who feels that they've wasted years in the wrong role? So someone who feels like, you know, maybe it's too late for me and I've been in the same career for 10, 15, 20 years and maybe they're thinking it's too late. You know, this is lovely advice, but you know, for me, I'm sort of stuck here. Is there a way out? Is it too late?

What advice would you give them? You know what, George, this is such a great question because so many people say this and just for people listening, that is a mind trick. It's just not true. Ray Kroc discovered the McDonald brothers when he was 53. That little burger restaurant. He liked the idea of it and started his career then. It's never too late. Whether you want or not is obviously up to you, but it's never too late. And it's a kind of an excuse. It's a trap because if you end up believing it, then you're right. Whatever you think is right. But actually there's so many examples of people that have changed their careers and companies as well. A lot of people don't realize that like Nokia, for example, used to make toilet paper, ends up with tires. Phones. The companies change, people need to change. It's never too late. But if you think that way and you overthink it, then you'll stop yourself doing it. You'll be right.

Nice. I didn't know that about Nokia, and that's a great response. So thank you. And maybe we'll wheel round to the tower for our final question.

Come on then. Let's walk.

A wheel as in turn? Wheel as in turn.

Yeah.

Just for that backdrop.

I like that production tool.

Thank you for that. There we go.

And here we are. Is this a big question? Like I have to think for it?

You might have to think about it, but I'll give you time. I'm quite good at freestyling. Apparently, if we or you could rewrite the rules of work entirely, what would freedom look like? So if it was starting from day one, if you were, say, starting your own company or, you know, or bigger than that, you know, if there was a sort of a whole social overhaul, as is happening, as we know, in some countries, people experimenting with different, you know, 3, 4 day weeks, etc. I've written, what would freedom look like? But I guess what I mean is, what would the perfect balance feel like? What would sort of the ultimate working machine, in a way?

I think it's such a great question, George. Your questions are just awesome today. Thanks. Yeah, the definition of freedom is time and money. And if you go back to why do people work, they work for purpose and they work for cash because they want the money. I mean, by the way, the love of money is not a bad thing unless you're hugging it, right? But you need money to live and, you know, look after your family. But time is also important. And I think since COVID people realize that. Having balance and being able to do real other things that are important to them are important as well. And then, you know, there's doing good for others. Some people wanna help other people or, you know, I'm working on a couple of projects that really make a difference to people in their lives and, you know, they don't often get a chance to do that. So if I was designing the job of the future, I think it always starts with what you wanna do because it's what you're good at and what you enjoy. If you didn't have any constraints or that being said at the beginning, but then think about You know, can you have the right balance? What's more important to you, money or time? And it might be both, but then you have to find something that gives you both. I think that would be my advice to people is stop pandering to other people, start being a yes please. Think what you want to do, what's more important, money or time, and then find something that gives you the enjoyment you want, that fulfills you in the way you need to think. So if you're a high roller and you've got an expensive family to keep, then you keep treading the treadmill, you know, because you're going to have to. But if you want to do something purposefully, then do that as well. So I think it's in your hands to do it. There's a consequence of the decisions you make, obviously. But I think that lets you decide if it'll bounce to your head.

Fantastic. Great advice. I think we should vote you in.

I'm in?

Into a prison cell? Well, yeah, into the prison cell of running this country.

Have you ever been to the— has anyone ever been to the Tower where they have a ceremony about the keys? I've been there. And they have at 10 o'clock, they go, Who, uh, what was I saying? Who goes there?

Oh yeah.

What holds you in there? Who goes there? And they do the key ceremony. I've been. If anyone's never been, get a ticket, get inside the tower. It's amazing. And you might not get out, but it was worth going.

And we are not sponsored by the Tower of London.

We're not.

I love it. I'm going to piss off.

Joel, thank you for those amazing questions. Pleasure. Pleasure to chat as always on this cold evening. And hopefully that gives you a few ideas to match what you were looking for.

Fantastic. Thanks, Gary. Thanks everyone for listening. And we will see you next time.

See you again soon. Bye.