Free Happiness: The Art of Science and Positivity with Dr Vikki Barnes #96

After all, all art is experience.

Hello and welcome to The Company Doctor, where this week we're talking happiness. Not just happiness as part of a warm fuzzy feel-good bonus, but as a fundamental part of effective leadership and high-performing teams. We're incredibly happy to be joined by our guest today, Dr. Vicki Barnes, clinical psychologist and founder of Positive Wellbeing, which helps organizations build lasting healthy cultures by putting people first. She's also the author of the fantastic book Free Happiness, which is all about helping people and organizations perform at their best, backed by science and endorsed by none other than Sir Richard Branson. In this episode, you'll learn how to lead with heart, discover why positivity isn't soft but strategic, and how small daily wins can transform your team and your own mindset.

Dr. Vicki, thanks for joining the Company Doctor podcast. So nice to have you.

An absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

It's brilliant. I've really been looking forward to this. I've got so many questions for you, but I thought before we kick off, we better get an intro. So let the listeners know who you are and maybe tell us what makes Vicky Vicky.

Well, I'm a clinical psychologist by background, but I work as an organizational wellness consultant specializing in positive psychology and specifically happiness. I work with organizations all around the globe. Looking after their people, putting people first. And who is Vicki? Well, there's more to Vicki than the job, as there is with everybody. And I mean, I'm an adventurer, I'm an explorer. I have a beloved camper van that I spend my spare time with. I like to experience different cultures, meet people. I love wildlife. Nature is my therapy. So, yeah, that gives you a bit of an insight.

Amazing. And you've got such an interesting background, which we're going to dig into. But the thing that I need to ask you first, because it's been on my mind, what got you into happiness? Because, you know, is— was there a trigger, or, you know, what, what was the— it was a moment that got you into happiness? Not an obvious one.

What got me into happiness? It's a really good question. I— when I qualified as a clinical psychologist, you can— you have to work in lots of different clinical settings, and when you're training, you do lots of different psychological theory and you use lots of different methods, and most of them are focusing on problems and trying to eradicate symptoms and getting help when something's gone wrong. And I think the whole time that I was training, I didn't really quite feel like I fitted into any of these models or these groups that were really great at what they were doing and passionate about a specific theory or way of working. And then I came across positive psychology, and happiness is one part of that. Obviously there's much more to it. And I thought, okay, I get that some people have some criticisms about the word happiness, maybe, or trying to seek happiness. I'm happy to talk about that. But as a word, as a framework, and as a model to work from, I just thought it's so much more positive. It's so much more proactive because you don't wait until you're sick until you seek happiness. Everybody wants to be happy. It's something that we all share as humans. We want to be safe, we want to be heard, we want to be happy. So I think it just resonated with me because I've always had this optimism for life, even though it can be really tough. I think happiness is always something that has made me feel better and people around me. And I just think that when we're happy, we're better for ourselves, for others, and the environment and the planet, right? So I think it was more of a gradual thing than a lightbulb moment, but happiness has just become more of who I am in what I do, whereas I never really felt like that before.

No, I like it. And we're going to delve into the effects of that in the workplace and our lives. You've got a book called Free Happiness: The Art and Science of Positivity, and you talk about free happiness is not something you have to chase or buy. Can you explain that? I think I understand it, but it'd be good to hear your thoughts.

Yeah, so the title of the book has two meanings, which is free happiness as in it can be free. It's not that the book is free, just to let everyone know. It's, it's free to be happy. You know, you don't have to spend any money to be happy. You might have to spend some of your time and effort, but not money. And obviously you can spend money and do things that make you happy, and you can buy things that might make you happy. But what the research has found, that actually there are two types of happiness. There's kind of the hedonic pleasures, which are, you know, the chocolate bar, the fancy meal, the fast car, the new outfit. But then there's the eudaimonic happiness, which is that stuff that lasts for much longer. That's the meaningful relationships and the purpose-driven work or charity life, whatever it is that you— community that you kind of engage in. So that's why it's free, you know, you don't have to always pay for these things. But also it's about allowing your happiness to be freed. So free your happiness. It's like a— it's kind of a, an instruction, allow it to be freed, because it's within us all when we're when we're born, we have happiness, you know, neuropsychologically. I can talk about that a bit later maybe. But we all have happiness within us and the ability to feel it, to feel joy, to feel excitement. And we have 4 happy hormones that we have at our disposal. So, but we tend to, when we become adults, we tend to become more focused on not being happy.

I was going to say, I've met a lot of people that don't, may have it naturally but don't seem to show me that.

Yeah, maybe. And there are lots of reasons for that, right? And some people are happier not being happy. And that's, that's Early sign too.

And you alluded to before at the beginning of the conversation, Dr. Vicky, you were talking about, yeah, it has a stigma attached to it because when you say positivity and some people think it's a bit cheesy, I suppose. What's the biggest myth that you'd like to bust around that?

Just that it's— sometimes I say like it's just a word, you know, it's just semantics. Call it what you like. I don't mind if you call it happiness or joy or flourishing or excitement or calm or Even, I mean, the non-existence of unhappiness is probably on the cusp of what I'm comfortable with because I think happiness is a bit more than that, but it's just a word. So if people are struggling with that, and the same with positivity, you can have people talk about toxic positivity now, right? And there's definitely a space where over-the-top positivity becomes problematic, and I think it's when it's inauthentic and when it's not related to what's actually going on. Of course we can't feel happy and positive all the time. So I think it's about celebrating all of the emotions, even the ones that we deem negative, which I actually don't think are negative, but that's another story. But I think that the word happiness is just about how you're feeling good, you're living your best life, and you're being your best self. So for me, you can call it what you like, but it's really important that we work on it and do it as much as we can.

I think that's fair. And just to kind of put things in perspective, so our listeners are business to business, and we always like to give them some practical stuff to to learn from. In your book, you share some really practical tools for feeling better. If someone's listening and feeling a bit stuck today, what's one thing that they could do to try right now?

So it depends whether they want— and I talk about this in the book— a mental practice or a physical practice. So mentally, it's about getting some perspective and understanding that your brain is hardwired for negativity. So if you're not feeling great, it's just your brain reacting to something, and it's real, So maybe there's something about understanding that and accepting it. Like, there's more to it than that, obviously. But a practical technique might be something like if you, you flood something, one of your senses, with something that is happy, like music, dance, singing, whatever it might be, you can't— your body can't help but respond to it. So your brain and body are very linked. And if you do something that makes, you know, makes you feel good, it will on some level, physiologically and mentally, make you feel good. So we want to be kind of trying to reduce the stress hormones a bit and increase the happy hormones. So it could be anything of your choosing, but it will work on some level. And it's about believing in that.

Yeah, I'm conjuring up me. I like music and it makes me dad dance sometimes, but it makes me happy.

And that probably makes everybody happy to watch dad dancing as well.

I'm not sure it does. And looking at your background, you've got an amazing background. You've worked with the NHS teams, global companies, even people in remote communities. Are there any common threads you've noticed about what makes people happy? And second part of the question is, is there one story or person that stayed with you as a result of that?

Crikey, so many. Wow. Yes. I mean, there are common threads, I think. So one story is— those two questions actually link to the same answer for me, if that's okay. Um, yes, there are common threads, and the story comes from my time in the British Virgin Islands when I went out there after Hurricane Irma a few years ago, and it was absolutely devastated, but the people had a lot of hope. I went out there with no previous experience of the place as a culture, um, as an area, as a people. So I planned to talk about natural disasters. I read up and did all my research about hurricanes. I thought, okay, I'm a psychologist, so it's going to be all PTSD. I couldn't have been more wrong. And what people want is to just feel happy, and what that means might be slightly different for different people, but basically it's to feel safe, it's to feel heard, it's to feel like you're a part of something, like you have some belonging in this world. So I met this— second question— I met this chap out there. He was a taxi driver, and he was absolutely amazing in his approach to life. The whole of his home, his family, they, they, they survived physically, but it was decimated, his life, everything had changed. His partner and his very young child had had to move away from him so he could keep on working. Anyway, there's a huge story around him which was really humbling, but he had so much hope. And what he said was, do you know what gives me the biggest happiness? And he said, it's to see other people smile at me. And we had connected because he was my taxi driver to take me where I needed to go. I think I was just arriving and I'd smiled at him and that sparked the whole conversation. And he had obviously the biggest and best smile. And I just thought, you're going through all of this and you're just recovering, still going through it. It's a huge journey and yet a smile is what makes you happy. And it was just quite a fundamental moment. And I found that going back to the first question, everybody that I've met in that community, but also all around the world I've worked with and here locally as well. People— there are some basic things that people do respond to, and that is one of them. Kindness, connection, empathy, you know, all of these human desires that we all need. And really, I put my PTSD folder away, I put my natural disaster away, and it stayed in it in my suitcase after day one. I never needed it for the month that I was there because people need what people need no matter where they are and what It is fascinating, but then it makes me wonder—

so that's the thread as to why people are happy, but what, what's the difference between people that are and people that aren't? So why is someone not?

So we know that there are some genetic differences in happiness, which is really interesting.

You can be genetically grumpy.

Well, I wouldn't rather call somebody genetically grumpy. I'd get in real trouble for that. But, um, it's— I don't believe that that's a diagnostic term at the moment.

That's right, I just made it up.

But, um, yeah, I mean, you can thank or blame your biological parents for part of your level Muito bom. But that's a baseline, right? And there's so much— that's only to a certain point, and there's so much that can impact it. So context, what's happening to you at the time, obviously life events can make you feel happier or not. And if you feel that you've had more than your fair share, so you're comparing yourself to others, if you're— and social media makes us do a lot of that. Why do these things happen to me? Why don't I get all of this stuff that everybody else seems to get? But then there is also the optimism pessimism, which is a little bit different, but Some people are really happy being pessimists, and actually it's not always negative. They're the ones that have taken their umbrella when there's a freak rainstorm.

Yeah, realistic.

Yeah, well, maybe, maybe there's a balance. We have to be optimistic to move through adversity, so, and there's definitely a positive for that. But I think it's part— it's a nature-nature thing. It really is a bit of both.

That's interesting. And by the way, you're very understated because I know that you met Richard Branson, you stayed on his island. Didn't you? You didn't even mention him. Yeah, tell us about that.

I did. It was amazing. So I was in the British Virgin Islands for a month and helping after Hurricane Irma. Richard just happened to be there. I was very lucky. I spent quite a bit of time with him for the month I was there. And yes, I— he allowed me an office space on Necker Island. So I worked there with the community, I worked there with the— with his staff, and he let me give him a bit of a grilling with some questions. And he was very kind to me. You know, he just wanted to be a friend and find out about my life and the work that I was doing. And we went on hikes and bike rides and things. And he is one physically fit man, let me tell you. I couldn't keep up. It was really good fun.

And naturally happy, it appears to me, maybe his lifestyle.

Yeah, yeah. I saw of him, I saw quite an authentic person. What you see in the media, that's what I saw.

So how brilliant is that? And the other thought I've had, you know, because I'm trying to look at both sides, have you ever yourself had a time where you struggled? Because you kind of know intuitively what to do and the various tools that you have available, but you've ever struggled to take your own advice? And if so, how did you get through it?

Yeah, of course. Yeah, absolutely. There's a chapter in the book actually, and I talk about, not in grave detail, but I have had dark times and, and my worst times when I felt like the whole world was crumbling around me, or my world at least. And, and there, there were some major things, you know, you've got health, relationship, home, work, and they all just seemed to do a bit of a 180 at the same time. And I really struggled, really struggled, and I've never felt like that before or since. And yeah, I, I did struggle a lot to put my own practices in place. There was one thing that never left me though, and that was the hope that it would work. But I did give myself— I think it's really important— I gave myself the time to not have to do it. It's a lot of pressure on somebody when they're really struggling to expect them to engage in happiness strategies, you know. So you really have to look after yourself in the way of promoting positivity for yourself and doing the wonderful things that we need to do to increase our happiness every day. But also just give yourself time to be down sometimes, as long as it doesn't go too far. Obviously I'm not talking clinically, but yeah, I did, I did really, really struggle through those times. And I had a couple of people that really helped me, maybe, maybe even saved me. I wrote about it in the book. That was really, really hard for me to do that. And yeah, I'd hope that I never feel like that again, but if I do, I know that there is a little tiny bit of hope that stays with me. And I, as long as I've got that, then I think if you've got hope, you've got everything.

I think it's really insightful. I mean, the comment you made about you knew ultimately that it would get better and you could get through it. I think that having that knowledge from experience is a great thing for everyone to hear. Because I think a lot of people worry that it won't work and therefore it won't get better.

I do want to say, I don't even know whether I would go as far as to say I knew that it would get better. I just had hope that it would, and which I think is slightly different. So sometimes I wasn't sure whether I'd feel better ever. And that's the dark place. But I had hope, and that's everything.

Brilliant. And as I mentioned, the people listening to this podcast are kind of business-to-business people. So really a question about leaders and managers. So how can a leader and a manager bring more positivity into their teams without it feeling forced? Because that's always a bit of a challenge, trying to make people happy by giving them pool tables.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everybody likes pool. Yeah, I think that point about it not feeling forced is the key point. So I do, I have a couple of programs that I do. One's about positive leadership, and there is a thing called positive leadership. That's what all leaders should be doing, in my humble opinion. And it's not traditional management leadership. It's all about using these positive psychology and proactive strategies with people to really engage with people as human beings, not just people who work for you or your workforce. You know, we are two things. We're, we're doing a job, but we're also a human, and We've still got the heart and the mind and the memories and the feelings and everything going on, even when we step into our workplaces. So, that's positive leadership. But there's also something really important about vulnerable and authentic leadership, and that's why we shouldn't be forcing, we shouldn't be faking. So, it's about finding that, what is the common ground here? You know, yeah, we're very different people. I'm a leader, you're not, or whatever it might be. I might be this color personality or that color personality. Optimist, pessimist, extrovert, introvert, whatever it might be. And it's not about everybody having kind of agreement and consensus. It's about having collaboration and motivation to move forward together and that common ground. So why are we all here? What are our values? What are our unique strengths? And how do we work together as different people? And that's all about being authentic and vulnerable. And it's okay for leaders to say, I need your help with this, actually. If you weren't part of my team, I would not be where I am. And I don't know the answer to this question, does anybody else? Well, I will go and find out. And I think that leaders have a— there's a lot of pressure when I work with them to be everything to their direct reports, and there's a little bit of chipping away at that. And, okay, we need to just be a collaborative community, not— yes, there might be some hierarchy because there might need to be, but in terms of how you feel, it should feel very equal.

Yeah, I think we're saying a lot of people's managers struggle to be vulnerable.

Exactly. Yeah, it's tradition. Traditionally, they weren't allowed to be.

They don't want to be weak. Exactly. And if someone who's listening is feeling like happiness is slightly out of reach, or maybe they're a bit burnt out or overwhelmed, what would your advice be for them?

Just slow down, take a break, find calmness. Don't worry about happiness for now. Just find pause, calmness, stillness. There's a lot to be said for just stopping and taking some time because the world keeps moving and everything keeps turning. The to-do list never ends. Whatever you can stop, just stop, just temporarily, and it will still be there. And it's, it's, it really is necessary for your body and brain. You know, we sleep every night, we let our bodies rest, but our brains don't rest when we're asleep in the same way. So we do need to switch off every now and again, otherwise burnout and, you know, that kind of the mental difficulty that happens to us. And it's the same for everyone. We just need those times of pause and calm and stillness.

And if you turn it around the other way, and I had this debate, in fact, on a recent podcast, I've had this debate. Does happiness improve performance at work? Intuitively, it feels like it should, but does it? And is there any proof that it does?

Yeah, it does. Yeah, there is. There's, I mean, so I'm not really a numbers person, so I'll try and get this right, but it's something like if you put in a generic mental health strategy into an organization, your return on investment would be something like between 4 and 10% or something like that. And that's kind of the money you're spending on an intervention for your people to make sure they don't go off sick, they are more efficient and effective and getting on with the job and not leaving. So you've got staff retention and things like that. So that's all improved and your return on investment is up to 10%. If you add a positivity element and focus on happiness, your return on investment is up to double that, up to 20%. I think that's staggering. And this is from, you know, huge studies like Google have done a big study about this, for example. So there are certain elements of positive psychology and happiness intervention that huge global industries are really latching on to because the research and the data is there.

I'm convinced. I always thought that, but not everyone does. And intuitively people know it, but it doesn't show in their actions sometimes.

Yeah.

And I was looking on your website, which is again another fascinating place. And one of the things you say, apart from being a humanitarian, which is fantastic, is you teach people how the brain works. You teach them simple techniques to change how we think. Could you give us like 3 quick tips or techniques that can help us?

Yeah, absolutely. There's something that I call bookending your days. And I know the way I say book makes people laugh a lot. So I do, if you bookend your day, I'm from North Staffordshire originally, that's how we say it. If you bookend your day, it's about, we have this thing called emotional peaks and there are normally about 3 emotional peaks every day. One is in the morning. So when you wake up and you might recognize this, you'll just feel something when you wake up, it might be dread for the to-do list, or it might be happy because something good is happening that day, when you go to bed because you're reflecting on the day and the doom and gloom or the great thing that happened. And then randomly in your day, there'll be something that sparks either a good or a bad emotion. So 3 emotional peaks. You can't really control what happens in your day to an extent, but you can control how you feel when you wake up and go to bed just by doing something like number 1 in terms of techniques: wake up and just name something that you're grateful for. And I know it sounds really small, but what you're doing is you're stopping your brain in that cycle of wherever it's spiraling to, and you're saying, hang on, I'm really grateful for this thing. You're flooding yourself with neurochemicals, which are— maybe it's dopamine, maybe it's serotonin, depends what you're grateful for. And just think about that thing for a couple of minutes, or even talk about it, write about it, whatever works. When you go to bed, this is strategy number 2, maybe 3 things that were great about the day, or 1 thing that was great about the day. And you might have heard of this 3 good things exercise, but it's really powerful because again, what you're doing is neurologically, you're just kind of toning down the negativity bias, which is something that we all live with, and you're dialing up the positivity, which is okay, good things do happen every single day. And, uh, number 3, I think kind of the other emotional peak you can't really do anything about, but you can create other emotional peaks. Like something's going to happen to you in your day that is left field, out of nowhere, and you can't control it. But you can do something that makes your day a good day, whether it's phone that friend you haven't spoken to for a while, watch that comedy program that just makes you laugh every single time, get that photo printed of your favorite moment on your favorite trip and stick it on your computer so you can see it, or Buy yourself your favorite type of tea and, you know, take your time brewing it and drinking it, whatever it is. Sit outside in nature when you're doing your admin, whatever that is, just make that moment count. And neurologically, what you're doing then is you're rewiring the pathways to be more positive. And your brain is— it's not a muscle, it's an organ, but it's like a muscle in that whatever you teach it, it will do better. So teach it positivity. Teach it happiness and it will get better at doing these things when it needs to.

Great advice. Because I often wonder, I'm actually a naturally happy/annoying person and I'm naturally positive. And maybe because I've worked in sort of complex projects where things go wrong and I've got used to it, but I sort of wonder, is that something you can teach? Is there something weird about me? And likewise, I come across people that are the opposite.

Yeah.

And it just makes me wonder, you know, if you could teach someone that, and this is good advice you're giving, what are your thoughts on that? Have I just kind of woken up the wrong side of the bed?

Yeah, well, exactly. It goes back to the nature-nurture debate, doesn't it? I mean, some people are just, they find it easier to find the positives in things. They find it easy to be optimistic and that's the natural style. And other people don't. I think what's really important though is that we recognize and understand ourselves. And a lot of the work I do is about understanding ourselves and understanding others. And that's how we work better together. Because if you are a certain way and I'm a certain way, we're either kind of in the same wavelength or we're completely different or somewhere in between. But the point, it doesn't really matter. The point is I get me, you get you, and we get each other. And that means that we can work together really well. We can kind of recognize when, oh, that's just the way that Gary is, or that's just the way that Jo Bloggs is. And also 'Oh, that's not normal for them. Something's a little bit amiss. Maybe we need a conversation.' And also, I mean, your words, you said annoying. I can't— we all, right? But, um, certain people will find you annoying and certain people wouldn't. So it's just about that authenticity again. And sometimes an annoyance is, okay, why am I feeling annoyed by this? Is it challenging my values? Is it just that he's really happy and I want to be, but I'm not. I mean, so it's recognizing that as well. And in the best relationships, in the workplace and personally, we have ultimate psychological safety to be able to have that difficult conversation and to be really safe. And again, a whole other topic, but I think the important thing is understanding ourselves and understanding each other.

Really good advice, because I think, you know, as you say, understanding each other as well so that we can connect and relate rather than be in different places. It's really good insight. Okay, I've got one last question before I get to your musical tastes, and it's a, it's a big one. Dr. Vicky, had to be, right? You've got so much, you know, looking in your past, you've got so much experiences coming out in this podcast. It's really inspiring knowing what you know now, and you know a lot. If you have the chance to go back to your younger self, what would you do differently, and what are your insights?

To yourself? I would trust my own instincts more. So when I was younger, I, I was a classic people pleaser, and I think I just trusted other people's views more than my own because I, I'm a very honest person. That honesty is one of my top values. So I just assumed everybody else was. And, and so if they said something to me about me or my work or my personality or, or themselves, it was true because that's what everybody— nobody would say something if it wasn't true. So, and I think for a long time I got quite confused because people were saying things that didn't really feel right, or— but I didn't really question it. And I kind of, I think I had my own mind changed along the way with it, with a few things, especially in the work and education context. So yeah, I would definitely trust my own instincts more. And, you know, bless my parents, they've been telling me that my whole life, and they were right.

Who'd have thought? The parents were right.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Who knew? So yeah, trust myself and my own instincts more.

Fantastic. This has been so great. It's been really inspirational and I think a lot of people will learn so much from it. I've started to read the book, so I'm gonna finish it. Let's go to your musical taste. So as you know, we have a podcast playlist on Spotify for our guests. Something that's either inspirational, it's on your mind, something you just like. We've had a whole range of things. Nothing is off limit. What do you got?

So my two big genres that I absolutely adore are country music. I absolutely love—

very of the moment.

Well, very of the moment it is. So I'm actually, I'm actually of the moment right now, but I've loved country music. I lived in Texas for my second year of university, so that's where it came from. So since I was like 19, I loved country, and I was— it was very uncool, but now it's cool.

Okay, that's cool.

When it goes off the radar, I'm just going to be uncool. Yeah, but there's a band called Low Cash and Their song is called I Love This Life, and you can see from the title why I like that song. It's just a really upbeat, very countrified, positive, happy song and really catchy. Good for 'em. And the other genre I love is '90s because they were my formative years, and I'm going to see Alanis Morissette 3 times this year. The song Thank You I Love lyrically But I guess the, the title Thank You is all about being grateful, right? So I'm gonna go with those two for now.

Love that. George will love the, uh, the country. He's a big country fan when he, when he puts in the appearance. So yeah, fantastic. And, uh, Dr. Vicki, thank you so much for coming on. It's been brilliant. I've really enjoyed the conversation. Uh, some inspirational and very helpful tips, and hopefully we'll get to see you again very soon.

Thank you so much.

Thanks so much.

That's it for this episode of The Company Doctor. A big thank you to Dr. Vicki Barnes for sharing her insights into the science and art of happiness. If you want to dive deeper into the topic, you can grab a copy of her brilliant book, Free Happiness, and check out her work in positive well-being via drvickibarnes.com. If you've enjoyed and found value in today's episode, don't forget to subscribe, share it with your team, and leave us a review. Thanks for listening, stay positive, and we'll see you next time.