A Practical Approach to Increasing Visibility with Personal Brand with Liberty Specialty Markets’ Michael Burle #48

After all, all art is experience.

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of The Company Doctor. Today we're excited to have Michael Burrell as our sage for this week's episode on the interesting topic of personal brand. Michael is Head of Marine and Deputy Active Underwriter at Liberty Specialist Markets. You're in for a bit of a treat today. Michael's going to be sharing with us practical tips on how you can take control of your personal brand. Which is always important to know, and ways to influence what others say when you're not in the room.

Enjoy.

So hi, Mike, thank you so much for joining this episode of The Company Doctor.

Welcome. Thanks, Gary.

Great to have you here. So today's topic is a practical approach to increasing visibility with personal brand. So been really looking forward to this. I think before we get started, it'd be really good for you to introduce yourself, who are you, and tell us a little bit about Liberty.

Thanks, Gary, it's a privilege to be here today. I'm Mike Burrell and I've been involved in the insurance market for over 30 years, principally in the marine insurance area, so covering a broad sector and underwriting a broad sector of marine lines such as vessels, cargo, valuable commodities, and even down to war and terrorism exposure. So kind of a varied array of books of business. I'd say it gets us on tenterhooks when we watch Sky News and the kind of the breaking news comes up across the ticker into yellow that it could affect one of our lines of business. But it keeps us on our toes and it's a great sector, great business to be in.

Yeah, I can imagine at the moment you're having lots of fun. So, you know, that did lead me to my— I've got quite a few questions for you, as you can imagine. But my first question was, You were keen to share the importance of personal brands, particularly on visibility. I think you, you talked about, you know, that was your watchword for 2023. What is personal brand and why does the head of marine division care about it?

I think it's really important in this day and age. If we look at 2023 and how what's happened in the last 2 or 3 years. Yeah. When you kind of look at the working behaviors, some of us are in the office, some of us are out. Some are working from home, some are traveling back again, which is great to see. And we, I just don't think we're bumping into each other as much as we used to. And I think personal brand and the visibility is a very, very important thing when you want to get noticed. And I appreciate not everyone wants to get noticed, but those that do, what are the practical ways of increasing your visibility, which aren't that complicated, by the way. For you to be noticed and for you to aspire to where you want to go and what you want to achieve in the future.

I mean, that makes complete sense to me. I must admit, you know, traveling to— I travel to London quite a bit, and on a Monday and Friday there's not much visibility of anything very much. But also, you know, I— when I was in lockdown, I did miss meeting people, although not everybody. But I was reading up as preparation for this, Mike, about personal brand, and basically the, the kind of definition is a personal brand is the process of creating an identity for yourself or as an individual, the business, I guess. How do you go about it without driving people mad? Because you go the other way. I appreciate what you're saying. You want to increase your visibility, but how do you not go the other way and drive people mad?

I think it's a balance, definitely, Gary. Personal brand is when you're not in the room, what do you want people to say about you? What do they want to think about you? Because you can't be everywhere all the time. So how do you go about creating a personal brand? And you can control this. It's up to you because again, you want people to understand you and want you to be front of mind where it's appropriate. So how do you go about it? I would say that, you know, you figure out what drives you, what's your passion, what are your kind of key interests, and focus on that. And then if you're working for an organization, you're working for a company, you know, you want to align yourself to those values and those kind of behaviors that that they stand for. A big part for me and a big kind of shift that I've done over the last 6 months is around key stakeholder management. And I think that is so, so important. And that can vary from sending the odd message to phoning up someone just to see how they are, to tackling a problem, to helping someone else out, and then into the kind of more structured engagement, such as meeting our brokers, as we do in the insurance industry. But also getting on the road and going to conferences and even speaking on panels or delivering keynote speeches.

Yeah, and I know you're good at doing that. And do you think it's just as important— you're talking about the stakeholders, which is more internal— do you think it's just as important internal as external?

I think both. I think both. I think to increase your visibility both internal and external is just as important. And I think that in our industry, what we've noticed is that as an industry, we've become quite internal focused. And I'm not surprised. When we've been working from home for quite a long period of time, but we've been back generally 2 or 3 days a week. And I think both internal and external stakeholder management is just as important. So we're trying to shift our direction into being more externally focused because we know that there are lots of existing clients that we have, existing relationships that we have, but there's also new ones. There's also new ones we want to create. And we want to also be in a position to influence the market and also increase our visibility by attending and being in person both there and online as well, because it can be both.

Yeah, I must admit you are a bit of a master at it because every time I've met someone in Liberty and I haven't met that many, but they're always connected to you. The only person that I've met in Liberty is connected to everyone I've ever met. So you're good at it.

That kind of comes into the intentionality, isn't it? I make that intentional because I go on LinkedIn a lot and I, and I probably promote it more than people care to mention it itself, themselves. Um, I, I really care about that because the more people I know, the more people I can help, because that's one of my key values is helping others. I've been very fortunate and lucky enough, you know, to get on during my career, and I want other people to enjoy and experience the same, if not better.

I think it's great, and part of the reason I was keen to do this podcast because I'm a big believer in expert, as you know, in personal branding and visibility. And I think people, you know, they kind of intellectually understand it. And this is part of my next question, really, because as you were talking, it kind of makes sense. And if I'm out, if I'm listening to this, I'm thinking, well, yeah, of course. But most people are pretty busy. Is it really worth the effort? I mean, I can understand intellectually why it might be, but is it really worth the effort?

Massively. Because you never know. You never know in 1 month's time, 6 months' time, 6 years' time who you might rely on, who you might need. They might need you in respect of ideas, thoughts, solutions. So I think it's, I think it's really, really important. You want to be the best that you can be, right? So the best that you can be is by increasing your visibility, increasing your personal brand. And it goes back to the top of the pod, is around how do you want to be perceived? How do you want others— what, what do you want others to say about you when you're not in the room? And I think that's— if you hold on to that, I think that's That's a challenge, that's a solution that is quite easy to generate over time because it's not a quick fix, it takes time, but like a pension, you want to start as early as possible, build up that cachet, build up that book of contacts and networks in order to help you either immediately or in the future.

Yeah, no, I think it makes sense, but again, as you're speaking, I was thinking about some people might be thinking, well, Okay, well, maybe my personal brand is not very good. Can I change it by doing things in a way I can change my personal perception anyway of my personal brand?

Who else is going to change it for you other than yourself? So, okay, of course you can.

But can you— but can it be changed, or is it damage already done? Am I stuck?

No, no, no, no, no, no. Because I think any, you know, we sometimes we learn by our mistakes, and I think you try to rectify them and it might take time. But absolutely, you can change your personal brand if it's broken, if there's something to change. If there's one thing, you know, some people would say in your personal brands, focus on one thing rather than 3 or 4 different things. That a jack of all trades, master of none. If you've kind of, if you focus, or the reverse of that, if you focus on one, you've got something then to unlock other things. That's what I've heard recently is that if you want to kind of align your value unlocks other values that people can then grab hold of because then they, they know about you on one value, they get to know you over time because it's about getting to know you, it's about getting noticed and over time then that unlocks other doors.

But how can I do it in a practical way? A good example is I'm really good at being on time, I'm a bit obsessed with it really, but I've got some friends or even business colleagues that are really bad at it and so their reputation is always late. How can I change the perception or the reality in some cases of my personal brand about being late to being on time. I've been doing it.

I think you could set yourself a plan. You could set yourself, okay, for the next month I'm going to be on time and I'm going to create a non-negotiable behavior around that and say, you know, alongside being punctual, you know, being more organized and more prepared, which then creates more noticeability and creates a— it's very easy to build up as a reputation or a brand in some— they're always late. You can fix that. That's probably quite an easy one to fix compared to some of the other ones.

I think that would be good for a lot of people listening, to be honest.

Yeah, I think that's probably quite a quick fix, to be honest. Get a decent watch for a start.

Yeah, get a watch. Exactly. Will tell the time. The other thing that people say to me, I'm interested in your advice on this. Why will people be interested in me? Because I might not have anything interesting to say. How do I promote myself on Vine if I don't think I've got anything interesting to say?

Okay, so the starting point is if you think you don't have anything interesting to say, you do, because everyone does. But what might help is to align yourself to someone else who does have something interesting to say. You start, you could share their content, you could share their thoughts. And I think it's, it's not just all about yourself. You know, you can join communities. You can join alongside colleagues or friends in promoting their content and their thoughts, which then over time, you know, past pre-match nerves around kind of hitting that send button or hearing that comment button, you can start commenting and, you know, having your own thoughts, if that makes sense.

It does actually, because I noticed you do that. I was going to ask you about it. I won't ask you about the content because you might not remember it, but On Lloyd's list, you said something like London markets most learn from the past or suffer the consequences. And the dangerous for London's marine market is past performance is not merely a guide. I won't ask you about the detail of that, but is that what you're doing to have an opinion? Is that why you post these things?

Yeah, because I'm putting that comment out there, Gary, because that is my opinion and that is then my version of the truth, which is the truth, which then no one else can interpret any other way. So, you know, if Mike Burr is saying that, then that's come from Mike Burr. That hasn't come from your second or third. That doesn't necessarily mean it's right. I think if you want me to go deeper, I can, but I think we've absolutely got to learn from mistakes, but we've got to look to the future as well. And in respect to marine insurance, we've come a long way and we're in great shape to deliver for the future. But I think when it comes to opinions, I think that's important too. I wouldn't be shy in in doing that, I think, yes, it's important. It's important. It's a version of you.

Yeah, exactly. Because I think from my experience, the more you have an opinion and you're out there with it, the more you become the expert. Because what is an expert anyway?

I think you're sharing, you're just sharing your opinion. You can't be in every meeting. Again, it comes back to the you can't be everywhere at the same time, but you pick a particular platform or a particular meeting or a particular seminar or webinar even, or something like that, then you've got that voice, you've got that opportunity. You know, think of LinkedIn, you think of the reach that that platform enables a single comment to reach. It reaches far and wide, subject to the algorithm, but it, you know, it does eventually reach far and wide. And, and I think that is so powerful, so, so powerful. It's professional network. And I mean, I've, I've been using it for a few years now, and it's only probably within the last 6 months I'm starting to take it really seriously.

Yeah, because I think it is very powerful with people just doing likes and it's a missed opportunity. So I agree with you, I think you need to engage with the content.

Yeah, they talk about that only 5% of people use, actively use LinkedIn. 5%, that's 45 million users, but it's only 5%.

That is pretty— that's a missed opportunity for us, isn't it? This, this sort of switch gears a little bit. Can you give me an example where you did something that really worked for you in terms of personal brand visibility or the two? That you were really proud of and it just kind of worked and you were in the zone?

Okay, so I happened to meet a good friend of mine who works in the market and we sat down for coffee last week and we hadn't seen each other for a long time, a long, long time. He's a kind of a friend from a, from a bit, from a business friend kind of thing. And, um, you know, through COVID and, and prior to that, busy jobs, etc., schedules, etc., etc. We hadn't, we hadn't seen you. It's either for a while. We worked out that we hadn't seen each other for 5 years, but the one thing he did say to me was, 'But I always see you on LinkedIn.' And that again is a similar story to say for a couple of years ago where I met another, another friend of mine who— it's not like you're meeting people for the first time in 5 years. And I, and I thought, you know what, that's visibility. Because in some ways, a bit like Strava, you know, I use Strava, I like running, you know, it's almost like you meet someone who else is on a particular platform, it's not like it's been, you'd have been absent. You kind of know what people have been up to. And I think that, I think that's good. I was really, I'm really happy about that because I think that connectivity, yes, that dopamine shot.

No, but it is because it shows you that it actually works, right? I always get those. I think I like that story because I think it shows it's working. And do you, if you, if you don't mind sharing, do you have an example where it kind of went wrong, or it was a missed opportunity? You wish you had done something? I don't mean on LinkedIn, but just generally.

Loads of times, Gary. I think I just mentioned pre-match nerves, and it's kind of that hesitation, you know, I should probably say something, or I should probably comment on something, and it's too late. I've been too late too many times. And that's a lesson in itself, that either someone else comes in with the same comment, or it's a missed opportunity because, you know, another another article or another post, or someone else has come up with the same idea, has kind of beaten me to it. And I get a bit annoyed about that. Not so much that I dwell on it too much, as you can probably tell. But it's, yeah, I just think it's missed opportunities through inaction.

I think it's a good way to call it, Michael, because I think it is a missed opportunity. And what would have happened if— I mean, there's no guarantees, but it just feels like there might have been a better connection.

A better connection.

It might have led somewhere, who knows?

Yeah, big time.

That's cool. And then, you know, if I was want— I'm listening to you and I'm thinking, you know what, I've been meaning to kind of get on with it and I've missed the opportunity for a while, but I'm ready to get started. If I was wanting to get started, what advice would you give me that would make the biggest difference, but kind of in baby steps?

Two pieces of advice, and one involves online and one involves in person. So the first example would be LinkedIn or a social. Generally, we're kind of company podcast, we're talking about company doctor podcast, we're talking about LinkedIn. And I would encourage people to, one, their profile and their profile page, get that up to scratch, get that up to date, because I firmly believe that that is your kind of walking CV, that's kind of your continuous CV. People are always watching, whether in person or online, you know, if you're going to take an active step in the visibility stakes, I'd start there and start playing with the platform as well. Just play, just like a few things, just comment on a few things, be brave, post something, repost something, just something like that. It just doesn't, it doesn't take much. And then on the in-person side of things, I'd go for that stakeholder management, both internal and external. Just write a few names down. Who are the people closest to you? Who are the people you may be need to know a little bit better. Aim high, be a bit braver. Go on, go to 1, 2, 3 levels above and say, do you know what, I think I'm going to ask for half an hour with the CEO. I'm going to ask for half an hour with the chairman. What's the worst that can happen? No reply. You know, that kind of thing. Just be brave, be courageous.

Yeah, nothing to lose, right?

Nothing to lose. So I would say that, you know, get it. What do they say? Get things down in writing. Put your list down, put your list of names down, put why, put how. Is it going to be a phone call? Is it going to be a coffee? Is it going to be a lunch? Is it a dinner? Is it a WhatsApp just to check in to see how someone is? And then say how often. Is it going to be ad hoc? Is it monthly? Is it quarterly? Is it half-yearly? That kind of thing. Just, just put it down on paper and then just start. Just start slowly and just put them in the diary and just see how it gets on, because you'll be amazed.

Yeah, because then you'll bring it to life, aren't you?

You're Power 27.

Yes.

Yeah, one of those. Exactly. It is so true. Networking. Networking is so, so good. And can I say a third?

Yeah, of course you can.

Even a networking event that comes up, pops up in the diary, go to it. 10 minutes, half an hour, an hour, 2 hours. Just see how it goes. Turn up, show up, I think they call it, don't they? Show up.

Yeah, just show up. Yeah. Well, hopefully get engaged as well. But yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

This is really great advice because what you're really recommending is that if you haven't got where you want to go, you've got to take some action, right?

Proactive action. Because the opposite of that is inaction. Because nothing changes then. Nothing's going to change it. No one's going to change it for you. It's up to you.

Yeah, no, absolutely. It's good advice. And you know, you've been successful in your career. You've got good credibility and profile. Is— this is a bit of a leading question— is that down to— obviously it's down to your superb ability and hard work, but is it also down to your focus on personal brand, you think? Has it helped?

Genuinely? Yes, I think it has. I think it has. I think it's, it's how— it's a combination of how you're brought up. I think it's a combination of how you've seized opportunities. I've been very fortunate to have some wonderful bosses of the past who have been absolutely brilliant, who have listened, who have guided, who have coached, who have advised, but also combined that with a lot of hard work. A lot of kind of networking, getting to know people, acts of kindness, connections, turning up, showing up. I think it all contributes to getting on and give your best, give yourself the best possible opportunity, get yourself out there, get yourself seen if that's what you want because I get it, it's not everyone's cup of tea but there are different ways of visibility and personal brand But yeah, I think it— yes, I think it has, to answer your question. Yes, it has.

I mean, the reason I'm asking, some people say things like to me, like, well, take me as you find me. I mean, if you don't see my goodness, then it's your problem, not mine. They don't say quite like that, but what are your thoughts about that? You see, by your face, what your thoughts are, but people can't see.

People see— sometimes people see what they want to see, but if you give them a nudge of what they should be seeing, I think gives them an extra— gives you that extra gear or that extra kind of, um, ball in your court type of thing to, um, make their mind up that little bit easier. I think, you know, people— what do they say? People— folk buy into the people before they spend with their wallet. I think that's the phrase.

I've not heard that one before. I'm gonna write that one down. So, so, so, Michael, looking back in your career, I mean, you know, you've been in specialty markets, I know, since 2099, whatever. Looking back and knowing what you know now, so if you were able to kind of connect the dots on it, would you have done anything differently?

Oh, 30 years ago there wasn't— in relation to this, there wasn't as much— there was— gosh, 30 years ago there wasn't as— there wasn't even a mobile phone invented back 30 years ago, smartphone. But there was, there was still lots of events, there was still I mean, the trading was done differently. It was very much face-to-face. Literally everything was face-to-face. Well, everything was face-to-face or via the fax machine. And then it's evolved over time. It's about connections. It's about relationships as well. Relationships that start small and flourish over time. And there are people that I met 30 years ago that are very good friends, or they're acquaintances, that if I picked up the phone But would you do—

would you have done anything— would you do anything differently? No.

Knowing all of this, would I have done anything differently? And I would have pushed myself a bit harder. Was about the inner critic would always say you could have done a little bit better. That's what my school report was.

Always do more.

Yeah, I think so. I mean, there's a, there's a balance, of course. And you, uh, do you want to be in the eyeline too much? I think people kind of work it out for themselves whether they're in the, uh, the eyeline too much. But, um, No, I wouldn't have done— I maybe would have pushed myself a bit harder. Okay.

I think that's good advice because for people that want to be further forward and buy into the idea, they might, you know, the real world gets in the way and I think it makes sense. I've got a lot of people that are listening to this podcast are business to business and a lot of them are leaders. They run teams. What's the relationship, if any, between my personal brand slash visibility and my team if I'm a leader? Does it rub off in one direction or reduce effectiveness if I don't do it? What's the connection?

Leaders lead by example, don't they? Apparently they certainly do. And if I'm asking my team to do a certain task or behave in a certain way, then it has to be led. I have to lead by example, and that's one of my non-negotiable behaviors, is to absolutely do that. And if if I'm asking people to like and comment a little bit more than they currently do, then I've got to do the same. And we had a conference the other week right on our doorstep, and I'm asking people to attend because it's a great network, networking event. You know, I can't ask them to go if I don't go myself. So I think it's leading by example, and I think they do. I think they are connected, Gary. I absolutely do. Because, you know, number 2 of how do you create a personal brand is around aligning to your company values as well.. And you know, if there's a mismatch there, then that can get in the way.

But so I get, I get the connection for, you know, show people what you're doing so they do the same. But is there another advantage for your team if you're, let's say, if you're good at, like, someone like you, right? If you're good at promoting personal brand visibility, does that rub off on the team at all? And vice versa, if you didn't do it, would that affect the team?

I, I think it does. If I didn't do it, then I think it would rub off on others. It's difficult to say, Gary, because I already do do it.

Yeah, but I think you're on to something, because if I work for you and you've got the profile, therefore the team has the profile, whereas if you didn't do it, I guess maybe it would affect the team's profile, would be under the rock somewhere, maybe. What do you think about that?

Yeah, I think so. Yes, I believe that. It still comes back to the give yourself the best possible chance. Promotions, inclusivity, yeah, new jobs that come around, being curious, all those kind of things.

Yeah, I think, you know, I think you're right.

People, people, people watch. Your entrance into a, into a meeting, whether it's virtual or in person, can make a difference. Cameras on, cameras off, but that's probably a whole different conversation.

No, but I think you're right there. Okay, I've got 2 questions, then we're going to get to your musical taste. So I followed your advice and I get into a rhythm, which is kind of what you're saying. The real world is busy, right? How do I keep momentum and keep it a priority? How do you do it? Maybe that will help us.

I was thinking about this the other day, actually. I mean, you can always hook up with a buddy and kind of help each other in doing that. I mean, if you do it, if you do it often enough, it creates a habit, which always helps as well. Habit forming will keep that momentum going and seek feedback as well. What do you think of my activity, my personal brand? Has it changed?

Yeah, that's good. Am I being annoying or am I doing it the right way?

I mean, that could come into— yeah, it could be. I mean, you can come into the personal brand, can be threaded into your mentoring sessions if you have one, or your coaching sessions, or just speaking to a buddy. Or speaking to a friend. That's the thing about inner critic, isn't it? I always say that, you know, your inner critic— if your inner critic was your best friend, what would you tell it? And you'd be telling it a completely different story to what it tells you. And, um, I, I— yeah, I'd keep momentum. It's easy to say keep posting, but, um, or keep self-promoting, but it, it, it's hard sometimes. So I'd share it. I'd share it.

I do like your idea of, uh, you know, making— putting time in the diary, because maybe that gets you the the chances to keep promoting and keep posting. Okay, I've got one last question for you, then we're going to get to musical taste. It's got two parts to it. Quick— I want three quick tips for someone looking to improve their personal brand, and then just three takeaways. If you could just tell me three things I have to think about when I think about personal brand visibility. So three quick-fire tips for someone looking to improve their personal brand.

First of all, get started.

Start playing.

Good point. And write it down. Write some of these ideas down. Who do you want to be? Not who do you want to be, you know, how do you, how do you want to go about it? What's your kind of chosen way of doing your personal brand, increasing your personal brand? Is it by using socials more? Is it big by being in person more? That kind of thing. Quick tips in increasing your personal brand. What would you say?

Oh, look at you, you're such a coach. I kind of like the getting started and, uh, and your tip about, you know, deciding what you want to do and making time. Maybe it's action.

It's action. And maybe, maybe illustrate the results. Maybe write those down as well. You know, where's it working? Yeah, where's the accomplishments? Give yourself a pat on the back.

You've actually done it. You said you wanted to do it, you did it, so it can't be a bad thing, can it? Okay, in the final 3, I just want 3 takeaways What would they be if you could only do 3 things to improve, improve your personal brand and, and visibility? What would they be?

Get a very polished LinkedIn profile going. Okay. Say yes to the next event that pops up. Nice. And talk about it to your colleagues. Right. So I said, if you create yourself a plan and share it, share what you're going to do. It's very easy to create a plan, not tell anyone, and then not do anything about the inaction part. When you tell someone else, it puts the accountability on you to deliver.

Great. So you're creating a commitment.

Yeah, you're creating a commitment. And who knows, they might reciprocate. Can you help me out on that? Let's go on that journey together.

Michael, that's fantastic. You nailed it. Thank you so much. I'm going to go to your musical taste, but, you know, your advice— and you are a man of action. So one of the reasons I was keen that you came on is you do as you say and you're really good at it. You're, you know, whenever I speak to anyone that knows you, you're connected and you're always doing something around it. So Uh, let's hear your musical taste. We, as most people know, we have a playlist on Spotify from our guests, uh, you know, songs that kind of influence you, maybe 2 tracks that influence you or motivate you or just are important to you. Where are they from yourself?

Awesome. Well, I love running and I love running with headphones in, so the music that keeps me going on running is kind of the Boom Boom Boom kind of the, kind of the, yeah, they're kind of the dance music. So my first track would be Robert Miles and Children. I just love that track. It's just such a good beat, and the piano is, is fantastic. And then something that reminds me of my youth, generally on a Friday or Saturday night, it was, was, was Snap, Rhythm Is a Dancer. So kind of two dancey tunes that certainly reminded me of the, uh, of the fun and the and the youthfulness.

That's fantastic. I wasn't expecting that in a good way. That's fantastic. I like those. We'll add those to the playlist.

Hardly a connoisseur, but—

Well, no, listen, it's whatever you like. It doesn't matter. We haven't got those on there and we've added them. So let's get the boom, boom, boom bit going, as you said. So listen, thank you so much for being a guest on the podcast today. It's been fantastic. People are really going to enjoy it. And, you know, thanks for spending time with us.

Gary, thank you very much for all the work you're doing on the Company Doctor podcast. It's fantastic. I tune in every single episode. Merci. And I encourage everyone to do the same.

Thanks for listening to this episode of The Company Doctor. You can find plenty more on a whole galaxy of different topics over at thecompanydoctor.com, where you can also subscribe and download our episode extras. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.