Contenders Assemble: How to Hire the Ultimate Team #71

After all, all art is experience. Hello and welcome to The Company Doctor. This week I'm quizzing Gary on hiring techniques and how to use them to assemble your ultimate dream team. The analogies range from football squads to house hunting, and as expected, Gary absolutely delivers the goods on practical advice that hiring managers can incorporate into their hiring strategies today. This is Contenders Assemble: How to Hire the Ultimate Team. Hello, Gary.

Hey, George, how are you?

I am fabulous. How are you?

If I was any better, I'd be twins. Whatever that means.

You have to see— you've said it before and I didn't understand it then and I don't understand it now, but I like it. Who cares, right? I think it's impossible not to be almost as happy as twins when it's a beautiful day like it is today.

Exactly. So what are we doing today, George? This is new, a new format.

It's a slightly new format. I have taken the driving seat before and I'm not really in the driving seat. I'm just going to be asking you a few questions and we're talking about hiring and the best way to go about what makes a good team. I'm calling this episode, and this is information for you, but it's Contenders Assemble: How to Hire the Ultimate Team. And you are someone who has put together teams for different companies all over the world. You've hired a bunch of people, you've done all sorts of, you know, you've got all sorts of experience in this field. So I'm hoping that the information is going to just flow out of you. It will.

Like a waterfall. It will. All sorts of thoughts. Good.

So I guess we'll just kick off with a sort of a general question, and it may sound like an obvious one, But what are some of the benefits to hiring well? You know, what, what in terms of the team, the ultimate team you put together, what are the benefits that people will see from good hiring?

Yeah, that's a good, it's a good one actually. Can I kind of preface it with something? Because just for people that are listening, just to think about this in a slightly different way, because I think people generally go around hiring the wrong way round. They're always waiting for the problem and then, or a gap, and then going to hire. And I am coming back to your question because it is connected. But if you think the other way round, which is if you were a football manager, you're always warming up the bench and you're putting the best people on the pitch. You should always be thinking in that way. And because of that, every person counts, because if someone's not good enough, they're letting the team down. So that's my start. If you think about that as a starting point, I am going to ask you a question. Yeah. Therefore, the benefits are not just about having someone that's capable, got the right aptitude and attitude, because that's really important. But it's also that they fit into the team and multiple people raise all ships because otherwise, if you've got a dynamic team together, then everyone benefits. That's one big benefit for me. Obviously, you've got to fill a gap, and if you're in sales, you've got to retire a target. So it's important for so many reasons. The main one is actually if it was your business,, and you are spending your money, does it count?

Yeah, nice. And I like that, what you said about don't wait for the gap, because that sort of harkens back to when we're looking at this from the flip side. You know, when, you know, when you're looking for a job, you're looking to be employed, you don't wait until, you know, you're desperate. You don't wait until you're sort of in desperate need for a job. So you're saying don't wait until there's a gap that has to be urgently filled because you'll end up panicking and choosing someone for the sake of it. You should be constantly evaluating, is the team that I have the best and working the hardest?

Yeah. And as a manager, you should always be looking to have a bench of people that you're considering. You may not want to take them now, but if you meet someone good, you think, you know what, I'd love to have them in my team. I might not have room right now, but that makes you think about, can I upgrade my team? And at the right time, maybe I can remember that person. They may not be available, but I'm always looking to improve the team. So it's never done. And that's, you know, I know it's not your question, but I do think that's a consideration.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And again, harkening back to stuff that we talked about in the past, the whole networking side of things, which we have covered extensively, that sort of feeds into that, doesn't it? Because if you're constantly on the lookout or you're constantly open to meeting new people, you can meet someone, as you say, think, you know, one day I want to work with this person in some capacity. And when the time comes, I'm going to remember them. Definitely. Definitely. Nice. And you, as I said at the beginning, you've hired a lot of people in your time. Are there any sort of immediate things that you look for in prospective candidates? And I'm talking about sort of almost at the interview stage now. Are there things which you immediately notice as green flags?

Green flags, wow, I like that. Yeah, you know, it's very expensive to make a hiring mistake, you know. So some people are really good at interviewing and they may not be good at their job. It's a bit like if you go back in time to some people that have stood as other prime ministers or ministers, they can be really good speakers and people that are amazing, but they might not be good at their jobs. Yeah. So the most important thing to do is to do competency-based discussions. So not talking about— because people say things like, oh yeah, we were number one, or we hit this target, or we did this amazing project. And when people say we, it makes me think, yeah, but what did you do? And so if people are listening, if you come across, you know, competency-based interview, have you heard of that phrase?

I have not.

Well, it's based on what you've done rather than who you are and the competency. So, so what?

Yeah.

So if someone says like, yeah, we did this amazing project and I go, that's fantastic. What did you do on the project? Tell me specifically what you did. I'm trying to test the actual activity and the competence rather than the feeling of what you do. Yeah, yeah.

Well, I think a lot of people, they do sort of, you know, they may have been part of a team that achieved great things and they use that to sort of boost themselves. I mean, I've done it, sure. Guilty. But I also know that if someone was to ask me directly, what was your role in that, then I'd be able to answer. So yeah, okay, that's interesting. And it sort of leads me on to another thing I was going to ask you, which is about your interviewing technique. You know, when it comes for your, you know, when you're interviewing people? Yeah, you're sort of Google style, you know, how much does it cost to clean every window in London, trick questions, or do you sort of relate and just try and come up with, as you say, sort of competency-based questions?

Well, if you get back to why you're hiring someone, you've got a very short space of time to get to understand if that candidate is the right one for you. And it's not just their competence, it's their attitude and fit. Do they fit into the team? And It's a lot to do in a very short space of time. And so I'm really not a big fan of these clever, overcomplicated techniques. I mean, there is a place for doing tests and assessments because it depends on the role. But if the principle is in a short space of time, I'm trying to identify if this person is really the right fit. You've got to let people tell you the truth. And the mistake most people make by doing these complicated things is it stops people telling the truth. It creates a barrier. Whereas I'm completely the opposite. I'm the nicest guy in an interview. I'm chatty and I get people to open up and they tell me the truth. So when I say to them something like, that's amazing, tell me what's your superpower, what's your strength? They tell me. And then I say, well, what areas would you like to be better at? Then they tell me their weakness. They just tell me. And so if my goal is to get to understand someone in a short space of time, then it's a better technique to make people feel relaxed and open with you. I'm not tricking them, by the way. I'm not manipulating them. I just want to know the truth.

Yeah, of course.

I don't want a barrier. It's not helping me.

Nice. As you say, it's a bit like buying a house. You know, you've got a very short space of time to make a really important, expensive decision.

It's true, actually.

That's topical for you. It is, yeah. Listen, everything I talk about in these podcasts is topical for me.

It's all about you, George. I'm loving it. Love that.

And, you know, I asked about the potential green flags that you look for. Are there any red flags? Are there any things that when you're hiring, there are things which are sort of immediate turn-offs.

Yes. The thing I hate the most is when people haven't done any research and they kind of come in when they're winging it. You can tell when people are winging it. I'm impressed by people that have researched about me and the company and had some thoughts about things they want to know. I don't mind if people ask me questions. I don't feel it's a negative. It's a real positive for me. So when people come in and they're all a bit kind of I can tell they're winging it. I don't like it. So people come in and ask about the company and they ask what that means and the implications of this, or they say, I looked you up and I found out this and the other. What is your style and approach? You know, when people ask me good questions, asking good questions, being prepared is a positive, a green. And when they're not, it's a red, right? And actually, attitude is higher on my list than aptitude. Again, depends on the role. If I feel that someone could grow into it, or they've got the right approach, they've got the right energy, they're the right fit to the team. Yeah, I mean, some roles that you have to have, obviously, the experience— I'm not saying you shouldn't be. That's kind of like a— that's a hygiene factor, having the, uh, the experience. Yeah. But then being able to explain— if someone's able to explain their experience in context to what I'm looking for, that shows they're listening and understanding. Yeah, it's really important to me also.

Well, a question I was going to ask was, have you ever hired someone who is underqualified potentially for the job purely on the strength of their sort of personality or their confidence or their charisma, you know, whatever you want to call it? Has that ever happened to you?

It has actually. I mean, I've got, as you're saying it, I've got a couple of examples. One worked well and one didn't. It's not always, it's not infallible, right? Yeah. One particular interview I did, the guy managed to get an author of a book to write a reference for them. They were quite young and I was like really impressed by that and I thought, wow, good for you. And I hired them just on that. Yeah, but they weren't quite as good as the reference that was provided. But, but generally more times than not it works well. On the other hand, I've had people that look and smell good, they've got all the badges and whatever they need to have, but they've been unreliable and don't even turn up to meetings. So I think it's important to have a kind of 360 view of people. Yeah, they've got to have the right energy, you've got the right fit for your company, and you want people that care. They're like, if you speak to people, they're very nonchalant about things, and you can tell when people care because you, if you ask for examples of what they've done before and things that, what was the most difficult thing you did and how did you handle it when the pressure was on, when people explain it, when you've got them to be honest, you can tell if they care and, you know, they've got attention to detail and they'll sort out problems because things go wrong and make a difference anyway.

Yeah. And I suppose on the flip side of that, looking at it from the candidate's point of view, I guess therefore it's worth looking to join teams that you may feel you're underqualified for, if you do feel that you have that drive and sort of persona that will carry you through.

Yeah, it's a weird dance, isn't it, when you go to an interview, because everyone's trying to sell to everyone else. Like, the candidate's trying to prove they're good enough. The interviewer, if they like the person, this is always an interesting one, then they're trying to sell to the person, the candidate, Yeah. And there's a weird dance that goes on and there's this sort of awkward conversation about, well, you know, what's the next step? And, you know, how do I know if I'm successful and all that kind of stuff that goes on? Yeah. But I think probably the most important criteria for me is that people are, who ask good questions, because I think that shows that they've done planning and they're generally interested in what we've got to offer.

And I suppose a lot of it will boil down to how the candidate is going to gel with the wider team. I mean, would you ever ask that the existing team to define what sort of individual that they need or that they're looking for? You know, how do you assess how this person is potentially going to fit in?

Well, that's a really good question, actually. So I did some work for one company who had a really great recruitment technique, and I'd recommend this to anyone listening, that they, they got multiple people to interview that person at different levels. So the people in the team interviewed the candidate, even if it was the boss, and they all gave their opinion because they all needed to fit in with everybody. And that included the personal reception. Just everyone got, what did you think of that person? Didn't mean they listened to everybody, but it just gave them a proper view about the— sometimes the roles may be a bit sort of secret and senior or whatever, but this particular company was an Italian consulting business, a high quality outfit. The people that they put forward to customers were so important, they wanted to make sure they didn't make a mistake. And so they had a very rigorous recruiting process that was pleasant. It wasn't the kind of— it wasn't the Google thing. It was inclusive. They got people to open up, but it came from multiple levels of different people in the organization. So they probably would have seen 4 or 5 people, some peers even. And I thought that was a— and they had a much higher success, actually.

Yeah, that's a really interesting one. And that's a good recommendation. I mean, what's your view on those sort of multiple stage interview process, you know, as you say, you do want to make sure you've got the right person, you want to get as much face time with them as possible. Can also be a turn-off for candidates as well. Is there sort of an optimum number? Is there a way of sort of shortcutting that?

Yeah, I think it's what you said earlier, George. I like your analogy of the house because that's an expensive purchase and people like, you know, they've walked around for 20 minutes and then decide where they're going to buy it. But sometimes you sleep in it and you go back. I think you should never buy on emotion. And so there's real value in getting someone to come back rather than trying to do like 15 interviews in one day or something. The other thing, another company I work with, they always go out for dinner with the person who's on the shortlist.

Oh, great.

Because they get to find out them as a person and people reveal themselves maybe a bit more after a couple of days. Yeah. I quite like that idea. Now, if it's an important role, again, if it was your business, you know, I have my own business. When we when we hire someone, it feels more like my money, our money. And, you know, you want to make sure that you're really getting value for that money that you're spending. So if people can think in that way as an owner, if it was your business, if you really hire— and if you've got— I think if you've ever got a doubt, my advice is then say no.

Really?

Because, yeah, I think your intuition tells you the truth. Yeah, I believe quite strongly in that.

Yeah, that's good. And, you know, as a— you know, we're talking about successful teams and the ultimate team here. As a senior manager or, you know, a sort of a big dog in business. What does a successful team look like to you? Not necessarily just for your company, but just in terms of how they work, you know, what are the priorities for sort of success?

Well, yeah, that's a great question. And I think people really struggle with that because they hire people based— and this is a bit of a challenge, right? Most people hire people that are mirrors of themselves. Now, if you're an extrovert, you want to hire an extrovert. If you're detail-oriented, you prefer people that are detail-oriented. And that's a problem. And so one way around it, and to answer your question, is identify the role that you're trying to fill and write down the 5 attributes of that role. So what does good look like in that role? That if you had the A-team and you could hire, you could get rid of the people you've got and you could hire that team from scratch, what would be the 5 attributes? And then hire against those attributes and then be honest about that. I'm an introvert or I'm an extrovert and I need someone that has different skill. Because the attributes are important for that role. And it's not about a mirror of you, then it's a mirror of what you need. Not mirror, it's a reflection of what you need. So that would be my advice. And I try to do that in a role. So there's a job description, yes, but what it just nailed down the 5 attributes of that role. What does good look like? For example, do they need to be good at relationship building or they need to be detail conscious and good at figures? Just get the attributes down. Do they need to be a team player or not? Are they going to work on their own?, and then that's what you're looking for. Obviously they need to have the experience and skill to do the job. Well, if you get the attributes right, then I think you end up hiring the right people.

Nice. Yeah, that's good. I think there definitely is temptation, isn't there, to just, as you say, hire who you are, basically. Yeah, it's a problem.

You have lots of people that look like you, they wear hats.

Yeah, that's super cool. To that end, you know, is there— I suppose there isn't a sort of set formula, You're talking about introverts and extroverts and things. Is there a sort of set of personalities that every team needs?

Yeah, I think, I think a team needs balance. I think the problem of having too many of the same type is an issue because you're missing out. A good example would be, there's someone who used to be in my team who thinks completely differently to anyone else I know. And when there was a problem, he would come at it from such a different place that it was kind of annoying in the beginning. But I actually realized it was really powerful. So if you have everyone that is like-minded in the team, that means they're like you as well, then no one's going to add any value to you because you're all like-minded, you think the same, and you're missing out on the color of thought and experience elsewhere and different thinking. That's why I like having a diverse team, different backgrounds, male and female, different diversity, different experience, it's actually much more progressive. Yeah. So I think you should have a mixed team and not have— don't have the yes people. That's real. It's really bad to have the yes people in your team.

And I think that, as you say, it boils down to just hiring clones of yourself because you're just going to end up— it's like an echo chamber, isn't it, where you're not going to get any sort of challenges, anyone sort of trying to think outside the box.

I think you need a common thread. If you think about the common thread, the golden thread, if you like, is that the attitude, it needs to fit into the team culture. And by the way, in order to do that, you've got to have a team culture. So you need to start with what's our sense of purpose, what's our team culture, what's our values, not the glib ones you put on the wall, but what we stand for. Now you've got something to link back to. That's your golden thread. But then you can have diversity in your team because as long as they're linked to your golden thread, then everyone's going to work well together. Yeah.

Have you— I don't know if you're allowed to say this, but have you got examples or memories of working in a particularly excellent team that you can talk about? And if so, which it sounds like you do, why did it work?

Yeah, that's good. I'll try not to put it on myself, but I used to work when I was really young. I worked in an airline reservation business and it was a very exciting— it was before the internet.. And basically the interview process, they got everyone in the boardroom and they presented the vision of the company where it was going, and they got people to interact. There was probably about 25, 30 people in the room, and everyone got broken off into different groups, and they watched how you interacted with people, and you had different kind of interviews. And it was quite a young culture, so there's a lot of young people that had the opportunity to be kind of in charge. And it just built this kind of really dynamic team, and everyone was doing new and exciting things together. So the culture was amazing, and it ended up being, you know, the best place I worked. But also, you know, I learned most of my skill of being a manager through that process. Yeah, yeah. So that, you know, that I won't put that on me, whoever had the vision. I don't even know who it was, but I just followed that, and I've used that actually my blueprint for successful team dynamics has always been what the reverse of what I've had done to myself. So when most people have got an example of a bad boss and unfortunately they think that's how you should manage people, I look at who's my best boss and there's not many, by the way, when you look into it, what are the attributes of my best boss? And I try and implement that.

Yeah, nice. That's a good way of looking at it because, you know, the other side of that is, you know, the bully. The bullied becomes the bully almost. Yeah. Kick back. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I like that. I like that very much. I mean, I've got one final sort of question for you, which is a bit of a takeaway thing. But I wondered before that, because this is a bit of an improv and this is almost like a sort of— you've been the guinea pig for a new section that we're going to have coming up in our guest shows, which is going to be, you know, not necessarily called the George Cloate Grill, or something like that. Where essentially—

It's not the George Foreman grill, but the George Cloak grill.

No, the George Cloak grill. Yeah, exactly. I'm thinking of the design already. So you've survived the George Cloak grill and you've done excellently. Is there anything else that you had on your mind that you wanted to talk about in terms of hiring excellent teams? Have we covered it all?

Yeah, I have actually got, as you can imagine, I have actually got another thought, which is, don't be passive. Maybe the explanation of what we talked about again, people are passive in hiring. You asked me about the benefit. It's critical to what the team is trying to do and to share the workload and to be better and to grow or to do whatever you're doing as a business. No one's a passenger in your team. And, you know, some companies I work with do what's called aqua hiring. Have you ever heard of aqua hiring?

No. Is that sort of in a swimming pool?

It's really not, but I thought you were going to say that. And the principle is you take a team from someone else, like the whole team, And actually I do a lot of leadership stuff and one of the questions I ask them to prove that you should never be passive is what would you do if your whole team left tomorrow? What would you do? How would you act? Where would you go and find people? What the hell would you do tomorrow? And they go, oh, it's just never going to happen. And one of my customers had that absolutely happen where the whole team got aqua hired by someone. So what they do is they phone up George and go, come and talk to us, we're doing this great stuff. And you get really enticed about going there. You go, you know what? George, we will pay you a commission for every person you bring with you from your team, your old team, and then you bring the team with you. You're used to working together, you've got that dynamic already, and you're motivated and ready to go. And it's really powerful. So, A, it could happen to you, and it may be less likely. But more importantly, I'm not saying you should go around acquihiring, but thinking— don't be passive about Hiring. Now, hiring is the, you know, people in the team are the lifeblood of your function, of whatever your function is. And don't put up with passengers in your team. It's hard to get rid of people or to move people. Don't put up with passengers. It's not fair on everyone else or in your business overall. So that's my little sermon for now. Love that.

Yeah, no, that's great. And that's brilliant. I mean, it was a key sort of 3 takeaways. Final question. I sort of I sort of feel like the sign-off that you just did is a better way to end this. But if you do have any, you know, 3, you like the number 3, do you have things that managers should bear in mind when hiring individuals for the ultimate team?

Yeah, definitely don't be passive. Secondly, have a bench. Always be looking for people. Good people are hard to find. You know, I was in a restaurant the other day and the person working, serving with me, me. I thought they were outstanding. I thought they'd be great in my business. Whether they could do it, I don't know, but— or even wanted to. But I'm kind of thinking like that. And the second one is don't be hoodwinked by people. When you interview people, it's an opportunity. Don't be lazy and just rock up to the meeting yourself either. Do the research. It's easy to find out about people, and your job is to get them to tell you stuff. You're looking for evidence of their experience. You're not looking to be right about your questions. The secret skill is to get them to open up. So, you know, that's, that's something that I would recommend you do and make sure that it's in your hands. Right. So use the time effectively. It's not very long. So that would be my 3. 3 and a half.

Love it.

3 and a half.

Even better added value. Gary, thank you so much. That was fascinating.

Thank you, Jordan. I love the grilling. Yeah, I feel like eggs over easy. It's fantastic.

Well, I'm glad you liked it. Hopefully there'll be more to come in the future. Thanks again to you, Gary, and thanks to everyone for listening.

Vielen Dank!

Thanks for listening to this episode of The Company Doctor. Now, before you go forth and assemble your perfect team, why not head over to thecompanydoctor.com, where you can bolster your knowledge by listening to previous episodes, dipping into show notes and cutdowns, and signing up to our imminent mailing list. Thanks again, and see you next time.