Get Over Yourself with Sally Wilkinson #49

After all, all art is experience.

Hello and welcome to The Company Doctor. Today we are thrilled to be joined by Sally Wilkinson, motivational expert and fitness retreat business owner whose inspiring story has helped literally thousands. She talks to us about the amazing power of getting over yourself and owning your excuses, and how doing so can help you achieve more than you ever thought possible. Sally is incredibly passionate about her subject matter matter, and as a result, we'll occasionally use the odd expletive. So if you're listening with young kids around, it might be time to pop on the earmuffs. Gary, Sally, it's over to you.

Hey Sally, thanks so much for joining us on The Company Doctor. So nice to have you.

You are welcome.

Well, people are in for a treat. The title says it all. I'm not going to say much more about it. It's called Get Over Yourself. But we're going to dig into it in a minute. But for those of you that are tuned in, you're in for a treat. It's interesting, Sally, because normally I ask people who they are and what they do, but I'm going to ask it slightly differently and ask you if you could introduce yourself, but share the story of your personal journey and how it inspired your passion for what you do today. Thought it would be a good way to get there.

Well, you know, I said you ask one question, that's all you need to do. Here we go.

There it is.

Yeah. No, I, um, started teaching fitness pretty late on, really, in my late 30s. And, um, I just used to work at my local gym just teaching Body Pump and spinning. And I used to work at BT as well, uh, because I wanted two more children. They did wonderful maternity packages. I didn't want to be a manager anymore because I'd been in retail management and accounts management. I just wanted to go in, do my job and be a family, you know, for a few years. So BT were fabulous. But then when I had my two children, I did that for 10 years. I just got a little bit itchy and it was in the property boom. So while I was on maternity leave with my daughter, who's now nearly 20, I bought a house on a credit card for my brother, and he's a builder. And then that started, you know, started our whole process of buying property. But unfortunately, It all went horribly tits up in the recession. The bank pulled the plug on the funding and we were left high and dry, and eventually we were forced into bankruptcy. And what ensued for me was like 7 years of, of hell, basically. Uh, it was just awful. We— the only reason we didn't lose the house is because it was in negative equity, but everything else went. And so I was— started working for Jason Vale at the time on his retreats as a fitness instructor on juice and fitness retreats, and I loved it. And it was only when a customer said, how often are you doing this? I said, oh, about 9 fortnights this year. And I'll never forget it, after a class she just said, do you know what, Si, I don't know how you can spend 4 months away from your children. And it hit me like a brick. I thought, I didn't even realize I was doing that. And Nancy was 11 at the time, and I thought, I cannot do that anymore. I don't want to do it, but I obviously had to earn money. Cause we knew everything was going tits up at home with the bankruptcy. And so I came back and spoke to the owner of the gym that I worked at, and within 6 weeks I was running my own little retreat. There was 8 people on. I had no idea how social media worked. I had a Facebook account, but I never understood it cause I thought, if you've had a nice meal with friends, why should you get on for everybody to see? Just send them a text and go, thanks. So I didn't have any friends really on it. But one of the customers set me up with my Facebook page and they called it Get Over Yourself because that's what I used to say in class as I was teaching, because I really do believe you can do so much more than you think you can. And I came off that mountain with 14 likes and I thought I was some business tycoon, I tell you. Did my little retreat and I, then we just started doing them more and more regularly. I started doing free challenges on my Facebook page and it grew, so it's got like 65,000 people on it now. And that's all been done just by sharing, sharing my story, sharing videos. And obviously I've got my Instagram now and the retreat business. So, you know, obviously left BT, all the property market, we lost everything, all our 11 properties. I was dreadfully depressed for a good few years, but I spent about 3, 4 months in bed. Um, and this is while I was doing my retreats. I managed to get myself outta bed, do my retreats, but then I started talking about my depression when I actually owned it myself. I started speaking about it. I used to have a lot of shame around the bankruptcy and the depression, and I was drinking far too much and eating shite and not looking after myself and just being a general arsehole, really. And I remember thinking, I have to, have to change this. I was aware that nobody was going to come and do it for me, you know. I didn't— I chose not to go down the antidepressant route. And so I read a book called Operation Ironman by George Mahood in bed, and it was just brilliant and it was funny. And he had a cancerous tumor on his back, and within 4 months he was doing an Ironman. I thought, I wonder if I can do that. So I got out of bed, looked online, Bolton Ironman was in 4 months. I've never done an Ironman, I've never done a triathlon in my life, never mind an Ironman. I haven't even done a little sprint one. And just a bit of a bragging right for those who don't know, an Ironman is a 2.5-mile swim, 112 miles on the bike, and then a full marathon.

That's before breakfast.

Yeah. And I thought, this is— it gave me a little bit of excitement. I think this is what I need. I need something that's going to feel physically impossible to do to get me out of this depression that I need to train for, that I can't just wing. You know, if it was going to be just a 10K or something, not putting down 10Ks, but I know I'd probably just get around that, or a half marathon. I needed something that I felt was unattainable because I wanted to believe I could get to the start line. And that was my recovery out of depression, using fitness and exercise and getting outdoors. And so it was at that time that I really got into working on the mindset, the law of attraction, taking, you know, gratitude, just really looking after yourself., and my retreat business grew and grew, and then we started doing them abroad. And so it's all been, I feel it's been accidental. I feel I've built my business probably very wrongly compared to what a lot of traditional business people will think. Yeah. Because I tell you, I've never had a phone tripod, I've never had a microphone. I wedge my phone in a hedge, you know, I'll shove it in the cactus and, you know, I don't bother about lighting. I just put my phone on and just wrote.

Oh, you're real. I get it.

And that's how it's grown.

Let me ask you some questions about it because I know you want to tell me all of it and I want to get there, but I've got a question I want to ask you because for people listening, I looked on your website, your vision is for everyone to truly believe that they can do more than they think they can, which I don't think you did it by accident from what you've told me and what I know about you, that's not true. You've done it because you've got over yourself, I guess. From your experience, what holds— let's think about other people— what holds them back and what's the magic dust that makes someone believe that when they didn't?

People, women especially, and I'm just going to talk about really myself, my community, a lot of women like me, midlife women, a lot of women sort of give up. They think they feel shit. They feel— when a lot of women know what to do, because like myself, been on and off stupid diets all my adult life apart from the last 10 years. And you do a diet and you think, yeah, you're going to lose half a stone, you feel great for a bit. And then the diets always work. People say they don't, they do work if your sole purpose is to lose weight. And I spent the majority of my adult life focusing on weight loss, just wanting to get into my skinny jeans. I didn't give a shit what I had to do to get there. I'd count points, eat quark and cottage cheese, you know, hopefully have a big crap before I went and got weighed at the village hall. You know, take your watch off, all that, all because you've lost a pound. It was all on weight loss. And that is so rife amongst women, is just seeing that number on the scales, and that's what they judge the self-worth on. When it doesn't happen, you feel shit. And then what do you do? You look for short-term comforts. You eat crap. Nobody ever stands in their kitchen eating 4 rounds of toast and having half a Walls Bay Netta while they're deciding what to have for the tea, if they're having happy thoughts. It just doesn't happen. It's when you're pissed off and you're trying to mask it. And what I used to do, and I know what a lot of women in my community do, they'll get up and they'll do that on repeat, on repeat, on repeat. All this pressure to have a bikini body, it's nonsense, you know, to go on holiday. We've all got bikini bodies. You just put a bloody bikini on it. You've got to learn to love it. But I'm also not part— I love the body positive movement, but I also think they can put a lot of shame inadvertently on people who have a preference to want to lose weight. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be smaller and fit, because I feel great. I know the difference, Guy, between feeling 4 stone heavier and not being able to get around the rugby pitch, or not being able to run for a bus, and feeling freaking amazing. And one of the quotes that I don't know where I saw it, but this is what did it for me when I first went on my transformation. You know, I don't mean six-pack transformation, I mean mind and body. And just thinking, I feel great about myself, is never leave this earth without experiencing just how amazing you can really feel. And the thing is, a lot of women will never feel that because they don't believe they're capable. They think they don't have time. They think they're not good enough. They think they can't do fitness. And what I love to do is to make women believe they can. And literally, once you start— and there's no diet involved, don't even have a diet plan. I don't sell a diet plan. I don't own one. I don't have one myself. You know, I'll try different things, but one thing I do advocate is movement. And the gift of movement. And unfortunately, it horrifies me that a lot of people, men as well obviously, just don't move. They'll get up and go to work, and then they'll come and sit, and they never put a focus onto moving. And literally, when you can get— like, in January, I tend to do the 20 Minute Triumph, and all it is is a 20-minute walk every day and 2 litres of water. And people go, what load of bollocks, as if that's going to transform you. They've no fucking idea, honestly, because somebody will say they don't have time. But to get somebody to do that every day and to commit to themselves, it's fuck all to do with the steps and the water and the 20 minutes. What it's to do with is the fact that they're committing to themselves and making the goddamn effort every day and not listening to our own bullshit excuses that we don't have time. And when they do it and they've done it for a week, you see it in the group on Facebook, oh my God, I'm feeling better already. I can't believe it. All I'm doing is a 20-minute walk and I'm drinking my water. And it's what that ripple leads on to, that is what makes the change. And that is better than any body transformation program, any diet, any bloody macro and calorie counting, because it's changing their design. I really struggle, Gary, when people ask, what do you do? And this is why I struggle to— if I need to sell it, a program, you know, I don't charge a lot for my stuff. The business world go mad at me because I believe in low-ticket, high-volume people. I just want to reach Karen in Basingstoke, and I'm not gonna— don't want to do that with a £1,000 program. But I just love, love, love seeing it when somebody intrinsically changes who they are because of their behavior and not because they're focusing on a number on the scales. It's, it's Joyful.

But there's a— it leads me to a question though, because I can feel your passion as you're speaking. You know, your mission is to inspire women to motivate themselves to finally make their own change. That's what you say on your website. With that in mind, how do you, how do you get them to motivate themselves? What's the trigger? I know I understand where you're coming from. What's the trigger for them that makes them do it?

Owning their bullshit. And I don't mean to sound rude because we all have bullshit excuses And it's how often. And I'm glad you reminded me of that because I had it in my head to say, and obviously brain fog, I forget. But it's no good just using motivation and motivating somebody because that is short-lived. We are, you know, we know, we've all done diets. If any women listen to this, we know what it's like. Yeah, you feel great. What's the list of can and can'ts? You go and do it for a few weeks, you feel great, and then you eat a chip off your children's plate and frigging hell, you've put a stone on, you feel crap about yourself again. And while you're looking for another diet, you go and eat the contents of Sainsbury's. There's that lovely window in between diets where you eat what the fuck you want and you feel shit, you know. But the motivation is short-lived because you have to use willpower, and willpower is finite. So when you get somebody— and I call it being in the summer rather than being in the winter— when you get somebody to want to do something, not because I'm telling them, but because they genuinely want to do it and not doing it because they have to. Little— and what I talk about in my community is little language changes like, oh, I need to lose weight, or I need to do that workout. You don't need to do any of that, love, you don't. And saying you need to— and say, start saying, I want to lose weight, I want to do that workout. Because what that does, that tiny one-word change, if they keep saying, I want to do, I want to go for a walk in the morning, I want to go for a walk, and they never do it, well, they're talking bollocks because they've not gone for the walk, but they keep saying they want to. Whereas if they need to do it, that's more justifiable when they don't do it. I don't know if that makes sense. It's such a tiny change, but it's got huge impact. I mean, Matt and I do, I mean, I love to do it with kindness, humor, love, and a bit of straight talking and the odd death stare. But if somebody says to me repeatedly, oh, I'd love to do that, Sally, I'd love to do your 20-minute walk a day, but I don't have the time, whatever. What do you mean you don't have time? It is the thing that grates. I literally need to reach for the antihistamines when somebody says that excuse, because I truly believe that for the day you might not have time, or for the week you might have a particularly busy week, you're travelling, you don't have time. But don't ever convince me or try and convince me that you don't have a lifetime of not having time. So what I suggest then is instead of saying, I don't have time, just say, I don't want to do the walk because it's not important enough to me. And do you know what? There's nothing wrong with that. I would never have a go at somebody for saying that because they're being honest. I don't want to do your friggin' walk, Sally. I don't wanna, I'm not interested, fine. But say that, own it. Don't use a bullshit excuse that you don't have time, or you've got a broken fingernail, or, you know, your cat's shat on the rug in the morning and you've got to clean that up. You know, just own it. And I see the biggest change when women start to own their excuses about everything, whether it's learning the language, getting fit, losing weight, you know, whatever it is. Once you own your reasons for doing it, and a lot of women don't get to that point because they, they look at Janice next door, but too, who lost 2.5 stone in lockdown, completely fictitious character who often rears her head. You know, Julie hates her because she can't bear to see Janice running with a ponytail swinging 3 mornings a week. Because Julie put on 2 stone in lockdown, but all of a sudden she hates Janice because Janice is holding that big shiny mirror. Now, until Julie, until Julie can accept that it's nothing to do with Janice's weight loss, it's her choices that have kept her there, until she can use Janice as inspiration rather than a stick to beat her with, she's not going to move very far. And it's owning your excuses really helps with that process.

I was going to ask you about Janice because I had this random question. Who is Janice? Why is she so destructive? And why do people find it difficult to avoid a bad influence?

Janice is— well, there's Janice, Jackie, Julie, Tracy, you know.

And I'm not picking on anyone, obviously.

No, no. My son, bless— my son's 24, he lives in London, he's a musician, and, um, And I sometimes put his stuff on my stories. This is just a little aside. And he says, do you know what, Mum? He says, I love it. I love it when I know your followers are following me because there's Marie, Jackie, Julie, Sandra, you know, Diane. It's all, it's all those sort of names, isn't it? So Janice was just somebody I used to call a fat Janice. And that's not, I know you've got to be politically correct, but at the end of the day, fat is a, it's like muscle. You know, it's fat, muscle, skin, tendons. So I used to be fat, you know, a day a dollar. I used to be a lot fatter than I am, overweight, heavy, or whatever you want to call it. But Fat Janice, and she was fat, fictitious, you know, but then she went and lost 2 and a half stone in lockdown because she got her shit together. She was sick of herself and she's doing brilliant. And Joanne, I could talk about this for hours, to be honest, because I get on one. 'Cause what pisses me off is people slag off Janice. So it's all right for Janice. You know, people aren't happy with their own choices, will slag Janice off. Oh, it's all right for Janice, she only works part-time. It's all right for Janice, she's got loads of time and her children have left home. It's all right for her, I can't do it. You know, and this is really gonna make some people feel uncomfortable if they're, if I'm touching a nerve. But it's them who think, fucking hell, she's talking about me. And do something about it. They have the ability to change.

They relate to you.

Yeah, I get it. But what happens with Janice, what they don't see, and I've done emails about this on the weekly newsletter, I had a right old rant one week. What they don't see is that Janice got up one morning, decided enough's enough. She went out running. White van man called her a fat bitch and told her to go home. She went home in tears. But do you know what? She got over herself and she went again the following week. She started walking because she couldn't run because she chafed all her legs and her armpits where her bra fat was hanging over, you know, and she persisted. You know, she got slated at work for wearing shorts. She got, you know, she's had to work so much other stuff that people don't see. She's in an abusive relationship that people have no idea about, yet she wants to give herself the strength to be able to leave that relationship. So she wants to feel good about herself. She doesn't watch the Netflix every night. She stopped eating chocolate. She's given up drinking, you know, and she's had to say goodbye to some friends that didn't like her doing that. And she's had periods of loneliness and isolation, but she's continued on. People don't see all that effort that Janice has made. They don't see it. They just see her supposedly living her best life and a new fit body. So people are very quick to judge.

I understand that. Can I ask you a question connected to that? Because you were talking about— we're talking about motivation. Now you've worked with so many people, is there like a secret sauce? Can you spot someone that, that, you know, is, is going to have the stamina? What is it about the people that do it versus the people that don't that you see?

Oh God, I love it, honestly. Just, I mean, I'll say Edwina for one. Edwina's the other half of Waffle. It's Posh and Waffle that we sometimes do on our social media. She's my posh friend. She's 10 years older than— well, 12 years older than me. She was my very first Nordic Walking client. Uh, going back 12 years when I used to teach Nordic walking, which is walking with poles. And she— I just knew she was ready to change. She came on that first class, there was 10 people there, and I could just tell she was ready to change. And she learned, and she did every single— I did 3 classes a week, and she did it. She's 3 and a half stone lighter, she's doing races, she's just incredible. She's a very dear friend now. But you can tell people, Gary Gamp, who are ready to change because they've had enough of their own shit. And when people make excuse after excuse, and there's different types of excuses— I don't have time is the biggest one. And another one, it's just a posh excuse, and it sounds— I don't mean to sound mean, but when women go, oh, I always put myself last. Yeah, I get that, and women do do that, but it's just another excuse, love. You know, I was out doing a story, I was out doing a Facebook Live on Down on the Shore one morning. I was doing a sunrise challenge. This was a few years ago. And so I was encouraging people to get up early. And a woman just posted live on Facebook, well, I'd get up early if I lived where you did. I just said, but you wouldn't though, would you, love? You know, you wouldn't. Don't come at me with that shitty excuse. And it is just, and some people just aren't ready. You know they're not ready because all that stuff about Janice, all that stuff about the excuses will offend them. And if they get offended, it's up to them in that moment— and I cannot stress enough, it is in that moment— do they choose to take that as a sign to think, do you know what, she's talking, that's me, she's talking? Because I've been there. It's not like I'm this perfect person. I've been in all those situations. I know what it feels like to sit in bed at night in a family bar or Galaxy, hating yourself, looking in the mirror going, you fat ugly bitch. I know how that feels. And hoping it's all going to be better because you're going to start tomorrow, and you wake up and it's all still there. I know how shit it feels and how uncomfortable it is looking at other people's successes. But you have to be ready, because what I say is we only get one amazing precious life, and I don't want— I want to live till I'm 100. I want to dance the funky chicken on my 100th birthday party. That is my goal. I don't want to spend between 80 and 100 feeling shit. And if I do, my choices now are going to massively impact the last 20 years of my life. They really are. And I want to put myself in the best position You know, we— I don't know if I'm going to get a horrible incurable disease. I hope to God I don't, but we don't know. None of us know. None of us know. But all I can do is raise the odds. So my focus is no longer on weight loss. So what I'd like to do is get people's focus away from weight loss and focus on the health. And every single time, almost, the weight loss happens as a bonus. And that is the key. It's not to focus on, oh, I need to lose weight, because all women I'm sorry, 90% of women, even if they say they don't, they want to lose a few pounds. The majority, they do. But it's not to focus on that, it's to focus on the health, your mindset. You know, what do you think when you're walking, you know, out for a walk? You're worrying about what's happening in your life, or you're looking at the buds forming on the trees and thinking, oh my God, that's amazing. I know that sounds a bit woo-woo for a lot of people, but That's what I'm talking about that makes huge change.

I mean, this is great. On your blog, you say you can do anything you want enough. Can you really? And how does it work?

What do you mean? If you really want to do something, you can do it? You're capable of it? Yeah, I do. I believe. I mean, look at me. I did an Ironman for frig's sake. You know, a middle, midlife, overweight, depressed woman in bed who was drinking far too much. I went and did an Ironman, and within 4 months, I believe, I believe if I wanted to, I could go and run the Marathon des Sables, which I know is a massive claim, but I do. I mean, I believe you can train yourself to do anything if you want it enough. And that's the thing, it's if you want it. The amount of women who say they want to lose weight but then they don't do anything about it. So I'd be questioning your want. Now, even on the retreat, there was a lovely lady. I said, she goes, I really want to. I said, how desperately do you want to do that? She went, very desperately. I said, you know that's bullshit. You know that's total bullshit. You don't very desperately at all, because we know what to do. You just need to want it enough. And there's nothing wrong with not wanting it. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to exercise or lose weight if you're not going to moan about it. You know, if you sit there and bitch and moan at people like Janice who do something about it, then do the fuck something about it yourself. But if you're not bothered about that, then you fill your boots, do what you want. I'm not here to convert the people who don't want to change.

I can see that. But what was interesting, just try and join the dots, because, you know, you've got— if you've gone from some difficult situations yourself to kind of really grabbing yourself by the boots Is there someone that's influenced you along the way, someone in life that really influenced you?

No, I think my mum always used to say, 'If it is to be, it's up to me.' That, I grew up on that little saying, 'If it is to be.' And we've always been workhorses, the whole family. My mum and dad, my two brothers and my sis, we've always worked, even from a young age. I did two jobs, you know, my first job cleaning somebody's house at the age of 14. I told them I was 16. You know, I do feel awful though that I used to use the 0808 numbers on Saturday Superstore. I used to phone up, didn't realise, didn't you know, listening to Swap Shop. You know, that was terrible, wasn't it? But you learn. But yeah, so I've always worked hard, but you know, obviously I love Joe Wicks and stuff and what he does. And the reason I love Joe is because he's very purpose-driven like me. He's not, you know, he just wants to help people and he's built a business because of that. And that's how I've done it. And that's why I'm turned off by a lot of people in the business industry. You know, I've had a lot of help from some brilliant people in, you know, in the business industry. I really have. And I'm, I'll be forever grateful. But a lot of people also are just focused on making six figures and the seven-figure brigade and then the eight-figure. And it just literally leaves me cold. It literally leaves me cold. It doesn't, to me, making money. Is a bit like losing weight. If I focus on doing what I can to help people and making a difference, I'm going to earn money because of it as a consequence. Likewise, if I focus on the health, I'll lose weight as a consequence. It's a very similar principle for me.

Now I can see that in your mission, you know, to inspire, uh, women to motivate themselves finally to make their own change using movement, mindfulness, gratitude, and a bit of self-love.— and a lot of laughs, which is always good. I've got a couple of questions for you, then we're going to get to your musical tastes. Looking back over your career, and it's been an amazing career really, you've grabbed hold of something and you've helped a lot of people. If you had the chance to do something differently, Sally, what would it be?

I wouldn't. I don't want that to be a cop-out, but I had a chance to build a huge property portfolio. We only started that as a pension fund And it grew, you know, we had 11 whilst including the flats, about 15 properties. And if the recession hadn't hit, I wouldn't have a mortgage now. I wouldn't have a mortgage. I'd be, thought I'd be driving around in what I thought I wanted, a horrific Range Rover. Oh, it just turns my stomach to think that. And I wouldn't have a— and that's our life, that's what we'd be doing. But it all went horribly tits up. Sorry, it gets me because, and that's when my dad became ill. And my dad was a laborer in the properties with me and my brother, and I used to go there and we'd spend hours working, you know, because we did it all ourselves. You know, nobody knows true dirt until they've pulled a Victorian ceiling down and carried it all out to the skip. And the amount of laughs I had with my dad and my brother, and he sadly passed away 4 years ago, and I feel huge guilt that we lost a lot of their money and we lost a lot of, you know, and he did, he died just being really proud because he saw that I built this business and he used to bring on my Facebook Live and he saw what the reaction and the impact we had on women and he was so, so proud. But do you know what, I wouldn't change any of that awful time. I was suicidal, I was, it was horrific time, went on for years, the worry and fear of it all. And the shame of being bankrupt. And I'll never forget when I went to the Official Receivers on the Tuesday in July 2016, and my dad was still alive, and I went to the Official Receivers with my brother in Blackpool. And the shame of having to go through the bankruptcy and how it all went wrong, and had we broken the law, and had we— and it was scary, it was horrible. And I felt this big, and I felt embarrassed and shameful and shit. But then on the Sunday, I crossed the line of Bolton Ironman. And to know that I could push myself through that while I was emotionally going through everything else. And if it hadn't all gone wrong, I would never have started the retreats. I would never have started this business. I wouldn't have helped— I wouldn't have met Jane. I wouldn't have met the thousands of women who I've had the pleasure of having a positive impact on, who've become friends. A lot of people have become friends But I struggled with my loneliness and my isolation, so I just didn't allow that to happen. But I'm getting a lot better. But I wouldn't have this business if it hadn't all gone wrong. And so now that I can find huge gratitude in the shit part of my life and know that I wouldn't swap it for anything, and there's nothing else I think I had in my head. I'd quite fancy been an international buyer for John Lewis.

How random.

No, I think because I loved retail. Retail— when I was the youngest manager H. Samuel's ever had at the age of 21, and I loved that job. It's before we worked Sundays and did anything, and I loved it. It wasn't like work, and I learned so much being in customer service and waiting on how to get the best out of people. I think that served me well, and I would manage. My management style is never to rule with an iron rod.

Get—

you get people to do things for you because they want to do it for you, not because you put the fear of God into them. And I think that's how I run my— that's how I get people to do things for themselves, because they want to do it.

Yeah, and I see that. So, Sally, I've got the last question for you, and then we're going to get to a musical taste. You know, this is so inspirational, and, you know, it sounds like through adversity, you know, you've done an amazing job and you've brought helped a lot of people along the way, which is what it's all about. If you could give us, the people listening, if they could only do 3 things to get over themselves, what would they be? What would your top tips be? Only 3 to get over themselves. What would it be?

To where to start? Yeah, drink, drink your water. And people think, oh, I can't do that. Well, let me give you a free demonstration.

I'm not sure they're going to see your video until the second, second episode.

That's how easy it is. So I've just drunk my water. So you, 2 litres of water a day, get up to that if you're nowhere near it. Do your steps, you know, because this is talking to somebody who doesn't know where to start. Just start drinking your water. Do some of them. I can set, you know, I can do a little tick sheet. I do tick sheets, my 20-minute triumph. Do your steps, up to 10,000 a day. Get up to 10,000 or more. If you're nowhere near, build up to that. Do it every day. And don't be shy. We all know what it's like to be shy, and I just want to say now before I go that I am not here never feeling shit. I have just had 2 or 3 days of awful lowness shit. Obviously menopause can cause that, but I still go through times and weeks where I'll eat 2 ice creams back to back. Literally on Tuesday, I had a double gelato, 2 Magnums, and 2 Ferrero Rocher ice creams all in one day. I do it occasionally, but it's what you do most of the time that makes a difference.

It sounds like a good day.

Yeah, it's what I do— what you do most of the time. So if you don't know where to start, forget depriving yourself. Don't think, oh, I can't eat chocolate, I can't eat this, I've got to give up everything. Forget all that. Just get out for a walk every day. Drink your water and don't be shy.

Brilliant. I love it. Listen, we're going to get to musical taste, but before we do, Sally, unbelievably inspiring. You know, you absolutely live your vision and mission to inspire and motivate women, to— for people to change and for people to believe that they can do more than they think they can. I know through my wife, she gets so much out of working with you, and you're a real inspiration to not only women, but to anyone that you touch. So thank you so much for that. So let's get your— what's your musical taste? Something that kind of inspires you. And I'm sure there's loads of them, but just one or two tracks that we can add to the playlist.

I'm a bit of an easy listener. When I was younger, I was obsessed with U2. I literally thought I was Bono when I was about 16, 17. My poor dad, who used to be a tax inspector, used to be sent off to the office with all the books. He'd photocopy everything. My walls were just covered. I painted the Warhol mural. And I was just obsessed. And with The Waterboys, like, you know, and U2. But since I've got older, I actually like a lot of peace sometimes if I'm in the house. I do. I think because I do a lot of social media, I can't be doing with loud stuff unless I'm in the mood. But yeah, my two, like, sort of favorite songs— I've actually got three really that you know, don't go for it, mean a lot. But one of them I just love, this is a dance tune. When I used to be manager of H. Samuel's, we used to go out on a Sunday night to this nightclub, and I'd always just dance and go for it. And it was Blue Pearl, Naked in the Rain. I just literally, I used to want to put a pint of Snakebite on the bar and get on that dance floor.

That takes me back.

Yeah, I was rock hard when I was younger.

Okay, and, and the second one?

Yes. And I— The Waterboys, Hole in the Moon. Okay. Me and my dad used to love it. And This Is the Sea, that album by The Waterboys is just incredible. And you know what, I can't believe it's 30 years. It's like it was 5 years ago. And then I do love Lorde. Got to know Lorde through my middle son.

Yeah, me too.

Me too. And Supercut by Lorde is just a wonderful tune.

You know what, we're gonna add all three. I think they're a great addition to the, to the, uh, to the song playlist, uh, on the podcast. Sally, thank you so much. We— I've really enjoyed listening to you and speaking to you. You are truly an inspiration. And if anyone doesn't want to get over themselves after listening to you, then nothing's going to happen. So thank you so much.

Have I got time just to say one other little analogy for somebody who might be sat there going, I still feel shit? I just want— it's analogy that I use. I mean, you might not It's called being either in your summer— I hinted at it before— or your winter. We all know as women what you feel like when you feel great and you're doing it and everything's effortless and you just feel that ease, you know, and you're eating food and it's not an effort and you're looking after yourself and you just feel great and you're just a nicer person to be around. I call that being in your summer, and it's just wonderful. The opposite of that is being in your winter, when you're sat in bed eating your Galaxy and you can't be arsed moving. You do it again day after day after day, and you're feeling heavier, and you just think, I If you're in your winter, I just want you to remind yourself, because when you're in your winter, Gary, this is— I just hope it makes sense. When you're in your winter, you can't imagine being in your summer because it feels impossible to get yourself there. It feels all so consuming. It feels impossible to get yourself there. But I want you to know that it is possible because the analogy I use is when I walk my dog, I live in the same place, obviously I do a lot of the same routes. I have walked my dog trying to do my Instagram stories in winter. I've got my ski gloves on when it's thick snow and it is freezing and I get Raynauds and I've dropped my phone in the snow and I'm so cold like that. And I've said to Simon, God, can you imagine when I was 8 in the summer and I was literally in my shorts and a vest and my cleavage was full of sweat cuz it was that hot and we were looking for shade in the hedge. It's the same place, the same walk. But when you are experiencing one, it is so hard to imagine the other being in it. But you've got to believe that it's true because it is true. It does happen, but it's so hard to imagine because you're in the extreme of one. So if there's anybody sat there struggling with it, just know it is possible to move yourself. And there's also a spring and an autumn, a mid-ground between the two. Nobody lives in summer, nobody lives in winter, it's all the time. You do change. So that hopefully will help.

What a great analogy, that's fantastic, and you've nailed it. That really is a great way to finish, and I love that.

Did that make sense to you, even a midlife bloke?

It absolutely made sense to a midlife bloke. Nice of you to say I'm midlife as well, bless you for that. But yes, it did, so thank you so much. Sally, you've been amazing. Thank you, nailed it, and thanks joining us on this episode of The Company Doctor.

Yeah, and if anybody, if anybody wants to follow us just on Instagram or Facebook, and you know, more, more of the same Northern knobhead chitchat.

Thanks very much for listening today, and a massive thanks to Sally for helping us all get over ourselves. If you've enjoyed this episode, head over to thecompanydoctor.com companydoctor.com and make your way through our complete back catalogue, and we'll see you next time for some more Company Doctor action.