HR Advice for Early Careers with Nick Walker #77

After all, all art is experience. Hello and welcome to The Company Doctor, where today we're talking early careers advice with friend of the show and returning guest Nick Walker. Now, the first rung of the job ladder is often the hardest, but it doesn't have to be that way. Equip yourself with Nick's decades of HR expertise and you'll understand how to crack that early career code and write the first chapter of your working life the way you want it written. We uncover the keys to landing dream roles, going global, and standing out above the rest. This is episode 77, HR advice for early careers with Nick Walker.

Hey, Nick Walker, welcome back to the Company Doctor podcast. So great to have you back.

Thanks, Gary.

It's, uh, it's really good to have you back for a number of reasons, mainly because you're brilliant, but also We've had you on the podcast before giving advice on how to get promoted or how to boost your career, and you're one of the most downloaded episodes we've ever had, so we absolutely wanted to get you back. You're in the top 2. So for people that don't know you, because not everyone would have heard you, a quick intro to Nick Walker.

Well, you're pumping me up, Gary Gamp. I think the last time we spoke was in the, in the depths of lockdown, where perhaps people didn't have anything else to do rather than other than listen to my podcast. So there is that risk. But yeah, I'm, I am a UK-based Chief People Officer. I currently work for an insurtech called WeFox. I've got about 25 years of international experience within the HR domain, working predominantly in large European, US-based corporates, but also in startups and grow-ups and scale-ups. And also been very lucky, Gary, as you know, because we worked together a few times to be involved in many, many acquisitions, over 45 in my career, but also a couple of IPOs, both in European markets and the US market. So that's me in a nutshell.

And you know what? Yeah, for people listening that don't know Nick, you know, we're really lucky to have Nick on because we get this rare insight inside the HR head, what goes on in an organization. And this episode's about, it's help people early in their careers. So it's advice, HR advice for early careers and And that leads me to my first question, I guess, which is, I know you were keen to give advice for people early in their careers. Why were you keen and why does it matter?

Well, you're saying about getting into my head, maybe that should come with an advisory warning, Gary, getting into Nick Walker's head.

I was thinking that myself.

We'll see how it goes. But I think when you mentioned the subject to me, it was certainly something that is relevant to where I am in my career, but also where I am as a father to 4 children. 2 of those children are fast becoming young adults, and they're asking questions around what they should do in their careers. But also, a lot of my friendship groups in particular have kids, and they're also asking me the question, what should I do in terms of my career, career direction? Where should I go? How should I get there? I'd give it some thought, talk to a few people, including my sons, my two younger sons. Hopefully I've got lots of ideas and lots of insights. But if someone at that stage of their life can take away 2 or 3 snippets from today, I think that would be a big win for me. And it also matters, Gary, because it's a tough market out there, right? It's a minefield for youngsters. What you get online now is much bigger, and much more complex to what we had when we were starting out our early careers. It's very competitive. It's a very international market. There's so much bloody conflicting advice out there. And, you know, I think when you and I were younger, you know, there was also leaps of faith that could be taken. And I'm not sure those leaps of faith are actually advantageous or even can be taken anymore. You need to be much more calculated. In what you do and how you do it. And also, I'm relatively privileged, and there is a lopsided argument to all of this, right? And we all see it. Often we don't talk about it. But those coming from privilege, even if that privilege is having a mum or a dad that works in a good company or have a good network, those individuals have a much bigger head start than perhaps those that don't have a parent that works in a big company. Or has access to a big network. So I'm hoping that, you know, some of these takeaways can be relevant for those that perhaps less privileged out there and can help them address some of the battles that they face in the marketplace today and give them a better start.

Sounds brilliant. We should dig in then because this is important stuff. Let's get to it. So, you know, what that conjures up for what you're saying, and thanks for that. It's a great intro. If you are starting out, How do you get noticed or even differentiate? Because you say it's harder, but how the hell do you do it?

The big topic, you know, before I answer that question, I think it's relevant to it. One of the questions I get asked a lot now is, should I or should my son or daughter take a year out before starting work? And it's such a bloody difficult question to answer because everyone's so different, right? And the needs or the objectives and motivations of an individual differ so greatly. And I think— I'm not sure what your responses are, what you told your sons and daughters, Gary, but I think you got to do what you think is the right thing to do when it comes to that. There's definitely only one shot you get to take a year off without having mortgages to pay, bills to pay, kids to feed. Right. But there's also other people, including myself, when I was at that stage of my life, I just wanted to get in and work, just wanted to make money, just wanted to get out there, get started. So I think that's something that when I answer the question to people, it's something that has to be answered by yourself. I think companies or employers don't look badly on it. In fact, they might even look positively on it if it comes with some kind of experiential or learning that you were able to obtain during the course of that year out, that gap year.

That's what I was going to ask you. So is that— were you saying that because you felt that if you chose the right thing to do in that time out, it could really help differentiate?

Yeah, it can. I mean, you can just go off and go around the world and just see lots of places. But I think if you build a narrative around it, around touching different cultures, getting an opportunity to understand different different countries, different religions, different cultures, do some work whilst you're out there abroad. That can all help in building a narrative for when you start looking at jobs on your return. Right. So as long as you are doing something that is adding value and constructive in that year off, I think that can only add value. But again, it really depends on individual and your circumstances, financial or otherwise. But there are pluses and minuses to taking a year off, I think, before entering the workplace. But I just wanted to get going. And I think, you know, speaking to my oldest son, I think he just wants to get going, Gary, to be honest with you. And there's a lot of merits in that as well.

I was just saying, but the reason I was asking the question, and maybe if I share this with you in the context, part of the challenge a lot of people, young people talk to me, is they don't have any experience. And so when they go for interviews, if they get an interview or even getting to an interview, they don't have experience, and therefore they say to people, well, give me a chance and I've got some experience. So they don't have the opportunity. How do you solve that conundrum? Because, because everyone's competitive, aren't they? In my day, I didn't go to uni, I wasn't bright enough, and I, I want to get a jump on work, so I want to get work before other people came out the other end of the sausage machine. If you haven't got experience, what'd you do?

Well, I think, I think your point about not going to university, Gary, and, you know, carving out a successful career is, is a great learning for a lot of people. I don't think university is right for everybody. And I think that today, in the last few years, we start to see a shift in that. A move to apprenticeships, I think, is really important for the younger generation. Also, this idea that university isn't the panacea, right? Going to university is not necessarily essential now to carve out a decent career. And you're good proof of that. But I've also seen lots of recent examples of that.

What else can you do though, to get to show experience? Because quite rightly people say you don't have experience. So what do I do?

Well, coming back to your question, how do you differentiate? I think whatever happens, Gary, whether you go to university or higher education, whatever it is, you have to do the best you can do at that institution that you're at. Right. And I recognise that school or let's say higher education or university is not for everybody, but whatever you do, you have to apply yourself and to show that you can apply yourself. Take pride and do the best you can. And I think in addition to that, and certainly something I've been advocating recently, is go out there and get a job, get a summer job, a part-time job in a pub, on a golf course, in a local restaurant. Go out there and show your intent, show your desire to do work. Part-time jobs, evening works, even side hustles, to be able to show that you've got that drive that focus, the desire, you know, side hustles. And lots of kids now are doing, you know, on Vinted, eBay, Depop, you know, wherever the channel might be.

You sound so cool, Nick.

I'm trying to be. I'm digging deep.

You're trying to be cool.

But it's my kids that keep me cool, although they wouldn't say that.

But, you know, I don't think they'd say that if I asked them.

But there's loads of side hustles, right? The kids are doing this, you know, selling t-shirts, selling old clothes, selling— what— buying and selling watches. And when I listen to the stories of my son's kids and what they're trying to do to make money, that's a source of inspiration and it shows intent for me. So I think do that and make sure that you can build a narrative around it, right? And invest in yourself. I think you need to find out what you're passionate about. And I think a lot of people just jump into work before actually doing a lot of homework. So do your homework. This is the biggest event of your life. Entering into the workplace is one of the big three, right? Including getting married, you know, buying a house. It's a big, big move, Gary. And don't underestimate the importance of putting a lot of effort in place to understand where you want to go. Because, you know, I listen to lots of podcasts and there's one by Eddie Hearn around, you know, no passion, no point. It's absolutely critical that you try to build your career around something that you're passionate about because When you're passionate about something, you give it much more energy, much more focus, much more drive, and it's also much more enjoyable doing something that you enjoy doing. Make sure you prepare, really think about it. And it may not happen that you are able to find your first job that matches your passion, but you can evolve to it, right? Don't lose sight of it. Always have that as your North Star, that is your passion, and try to evolve to it. Sometimes it doesn't happen that The world isn't a fair place and things don't happen the way you want it necessarily.

I think it's good advice.

Yeah.

And kind of connected to that, do you think networking is important and how do you get started? If it is, how do you get started when you don't have much of a network?

Yeah, back to that point, right? Because there's a lot of privileged people that do have a network and then there's also those that aren't so privileged that don't have access to networks. So networking is absolutely critical, Gary. There's no way that I would be where I am today without networking throughout my career and even in the last days, networking to carve out my career and how I will evolve. And I owe lots of people, probably including yourself, many pints of beer along that way. And one piece of advice I'd give is that you're never, ever too young to start networking. Start networking immediately. It's absolutely critical. You need to be almost ruthless. A brutal networker and you need to put aside any nerves, any shyness, any embarrassment around connecting with people you don't know or people of people of people that you might know. Just connect, get connected, connect people on LinkedIn, connect to their connections, speak to people in the pubs, at the bus stops, in the trains. Because people have stories, people have connections, people have opportunities. And the more people that you are able to talk to or connect to about that, then the wider your net is cast, right? It's as simple as that. It's almost a numbers game.

So you're saying be braver, basically, because it's easy.

Ruthless is the word I would use. Be absolutely ruthless. Be a LinkedIn whore. That's what we call some recruiters. Go out there and absolutely LinkedIn whore yourself out there. But I think one thing you must make sure as you Being ruthless is one thing, but being professional is another. So when you're young in your career, make sure you do take notes as you network with people, as you talk to people, take notes because you need to be able to circle back to them and be mindful of what was shared with them at that point in time or what promises they made to you. So please take notes. Don't just think that you can have a 5-minute discussion with someone. They've given you 5 minutes of their time.

You're being a good apprentice, aren't you?

Use that time. Take notes and make sure that you can circle back appropriately with them in a professional way. And I think also when people do give you the time, Gary, when people do open up the door and say, right, yeah, fine, I'll have 10 minutes with you, no problem, make sure you say thank you, not just at the end of the meeting or the call with them, but also circle back with an email in a common courtesy. Just saying thank you for your time. Really appreciated talking to you and getting your advice and insights. I look forward to hearing more, talking again.

This is good. So listen, I want to— this is great. I want to switch tracks a little bit because we've got lots to get through and I need to get inside your head. And because we've got this rare opportunity to get inside the head of a pre-seasoned HR professional, the question is this: what are you looking for when you're hiring? And what makes people stand out through your HR lens when you see them? So let's say they're going to get into an interview. They're getting in front of you, what makes them stand out?

We're talking still about, you know, young people carving out their first job, right?

Yeah, absolutely. Very early days.

Not a seasoned manager or someone, you know, earlier in their career.

But, but I guess even not, maybe not first job, it could be second job, but early in their career, you see a lot of people. What makes people stand apart and what you're looking for when you're hiring?

It's going to be attitude. Absolutely about attitude. So even those with little or no experience. It's all about the attitude that you hold and that you ooze when you meet with them. I want to see people that have done their homework. I want to see people that have fire in their belly. I want to see people that really want something. I'm less worried about how they present themselves or the nerves they have. In fact, nerves, Gary, they often come across as quite positive, right? It shows that you really want something. So And when you're young in your career, you're embarking on your first job, you are nervous. It's good to be nervous. Don't be afraid of it. It's absolutely fine. Professionals can see through the nerves and see that you want something. I think I also want to see people that have experimented, so that have done those side hustles that we talked about, that have shown a drive and an enthusiasm to get out there and get a job. Whether it be in a restaurant, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what the job is, but it just shows intent. That you've been out there and done something, that you're not coming here with a blank CV, but there's something on there that forms a basis for a discussion. And there I said sport's really important to me. Often, especially with boys, maybe because I've got 3 boys, it's more pertinent to me. But I think sport is often a very good common denominator, but also shows, again, an individual's ability to to try something new, to be part of a team, to show courage, to show discipline, and to be part of something that is either a win or a lose. Right. So I think having some form of sport is definitely going to be very helpful in those early conversations. And I think finally, something that stands out, you know, one thing that I always missed out on, really, you know, when you join a company, Gary, you might stand up and you have to present yourself or you're introduced on email to the company, you need to have something in your back pocket that is different. I remember one guy told me that he could do the Rubik's Cube underwater, and that really stuck with me. Something really edgy but different and a little bit quirky. Useful. I can juggle. That was always my interesting fact about Nick Walker. He can juggle. Now, later in life, it's I'm a beekeeper. I mean, how boring is that? But And I think that you need to have something in your back pocket. You know, what is it that is different about you?

Yeah, that's great advice. That's so good because I was going to ask you, but you've answered now about, you know, if you— what would you tell your younger self? Because I think as we advance in our career, if we, if we start again, what would you tell your younger self? Is there anything additional from what you covered? We'll move on to getting up the ladder.

Well, in addition to, you know, marriage can wait, buy a house early, don't drink too much. Don't lose your laptop in the pub, never buy a new car.

No, I'm talking about related to getting a job. We don't want your life hacks. Well, we do, but not for this episode.

I think that what I would tell myself is, Nick, it's a long game. There's going to be up years and there's going to be down years, but it's a long game, it's a marathon, so go with it. I think also What I've learned is that change is a constant and you just need to embrace it. You can't run away from change because we live in a world now where things change so quickly. And that is very true of companies, but also careers. And I think you need to accept that change is a constant. One thing I'd like to have done better in my career is present, present, present. When I joined my first organization, I was a terrible presenter, Gary, and I think it's probably consistent with our education system, right? We just don't spend enough time learning how to present efficiently, effectively, how to build and present a narrative. And I would say one thing to youngsters out there is just present.

It's funny, isn't it? This is, this is Nick Gold, and it's not an obvious skill to think about, is it? It's not something you think about.

Even today, I would say that it's probably, you know, on my bottom 3 weaknesses. And I wish I could have invested more time in presenting. And, you know, I'm constantly pushing myself out of my comfort zone now to present. But I just wish I'd have invested a lot more early in my career, even before I started my career, in presenting, whether that's, you know, doing some acting doing some oratory work in a debate of some sort, in a debate school, whatever it might be. But honestly, I think that our education system lets us down a bit when it comes to getting kids ready for the big stage.

Nice. So good. Not something obvious that people would think about. So let's say that I'm Nick, let's say I'm on the ladder now, right? Yeah. So I'm working.

Yeah.

What are the best things I can do to accelerate my career? And I kind of like the long game bit. That makes a lot of sense to me. And I think it takes the pressure off a bit, to be honest. The world is very instant, isn't it? I'm on the ladder. What's the best things I can do to accelerate my career?

So once you're on the ladder, I think, let's say you're early on in your career on the ladder. I know that it's going to be a difficult discussion, but you need to be in the office, Gary. And I think that is something that probably the Gen Z would probably shoot me down for. You know, the entitled Gen Z would say, no, I don't need to be in the office, but you absolutely do. So you need to be in the office, you need to be there, you need to be in the face of the company and the managers. You've got to work hard, you've got to deliver, you've got to show intent. Gary, as I said, that word intent is really important to me. Network internally. So, you know, still network externally because that's really important. You know, build out your network, continue to build out your network., but also network internally. Be a ruthless networker internally as well. You know, be, be there, ask the questions at the town halls, get in front of managers, uh, get in front of the HR team, make sure they know who you are and what you stand for and where you want to go. Also take advantage of the company's training programs, something, you know, that I think is often overlooked. There's lots of content out there available to you, not just outside of the company through YouTube and leadership books and podcasts, but Inside a company, often there's going to be a whole host of training and learning programs that will be relevant to you, and even high potential programs, right? Most big companies would have a highly geared training program for young hypos, hypos being high potential individuals, people that show a good performance and high probability for career projection. So that combination of performance versus potential is really important. So make sure you get on that high potential program, lobby yourself to get onto the high potential learning program, but absorb as much training as they can throw at you, basically.

And Nick, do you think during times of change, is it crisis or opportunity?

Opportunity, certainly for the younger generation where, you know, you don't have the burden of, you know, hopefully you don't have the financial burdens that perhaps you have later on in life, absolutely opportunity because you have, as long as you show again, you know, good performance, drive, appetite, intent, you know, often change for those, for those that are good during a crisis, you know, the cream really does rise to the top. So I would say absolutely opportunity.

Yeah, good, good to hear. And the question that comes up a lot for me is when people start work, they quickly get to the point where they want more money. It seems to get quicker and quicker. Yeah. Should I ask for a pay rise? Is there a right and a wrong to it? Should I be more patient? What's your thoughts?

I think we touched upon this in the first podcast we did together, Gary, and I don't think my opinion has changed. I'm someone who gets hit with requests on a constant basis. I think as long as it's merited and you can prove that it's merited, asking for a pay rise is absolutely fine and is something that I would definitely support. But it has to come with constructive and pragmatic kind of foundations, right? And those could be, you know, taking on additional responsibilities, strong performance review, knowledge of, you know, your peer group receiving increases and you're not, or being able to really prove that the market has moved for your specific job, I would say are kind of good foundational reasons to ask for a pay rise. But if you do do it, I think you've got to do it in a meeting. I don't think just pinging off a couple of emails to HR, to the manager, is appropriate. You've got to basically sit down with the manager explain your rationale, talk them through it, and then probably then after that I'd say follow up with an email to explain the reasoning and the justification. You can't make a request just for the sake of making a request, guys. It has to come with a reasoning, with a pragmatic kind of foundation, I would say.

How do you react when someone says, unless you, I will?

Not very well. Not very well at all. I don't like being held to ransom. I don't think most leaders or Good HR professionals also don't like being held to ransom. Again, as long as there's a background to it and a justification for it, then it could be either warranted or it could be discussed. Right. But there's no guarantees. Companies have typically a robust pay rise process, salary policy, typically once, maybe twice a year. Do they tend to operate outside of that policy? Yes, they can do for certain circumstances, particularly high potentials, or those with core knowledge could be reasons. But generally speaking, there has to be a very good reason for an HR professional to support a salary increase outside of policy, I would say. So make sure if you do it, you do it with intent, you do it with information at your disposal, with good reasoning, justification. And if you don't get it, don't continue moaning about it. If you don't get it and you're not happy, move on. You know, and we haven't discussed that yet, Gary. You know, sometimes you need to move out to move up, right? And there's nothing wrong with that, by the way. That's part of life. So yeah, don't moan about it. Don't get in a stew about it. Don't get into a toxic kind of environment about not getting your pay increase that you've asked for. If you're not happy and if you believe you're worth more, then go out and get it.

That's great advice. So listen, I've got two big questions for you, and then we're going to get to your musical taste. Back, back to it anyway. The first one is, if I could ask you for just three things, three tips that you could give me early in my career that I should really focus on, if I could only have three things, what would it be?

I would say go international. So if there is an opportunity to go international, absolutely take it. It's something that has definitely put me in a good instead. So if there's an opportunity to go international, take it. Absolutely. You know, one, because the diversity that you'll see whilst working internationally. Two, the different cultures you'll operate in. Three, the excitement of the projects that you'll be working on. And four, it's a differentiator. You know, the sooner you go international, the better. And if you go international, I would say stay international because it commands, as I said, a bit more salary. I would say it comes at a price. Travel comes at a price. Being abroad 3 or 4 days a week isn't for everybody. So make sure you know what you're getting into when you go international. When you go international, you're potentially working longer hours in different time zones and also being asked to travel on a frequent basis. But it does come with some significant rewards, Gary. So that would be absolutely one of my comments. The second one would be to disrupt the succession plan. Now, I might get into trouble for this from all my HR colleagues, but—

I like the sound of this already.

You know, every company has a succession plan, and, you know, sometimes it's just a paper exercise. Often, more often than not, it's just a paper exercise. Oh, we've done our succession plan, and, you know, you put it in the drawer for another 12 months. Good companies use a succession plan to determine who they invest in, to determine where they need to recruit to fill gaps, etc. So I'm a big fan of them, but I would say you've got to go in and disrupt it and disrupt it with purpose. So don't be afraid to ask, you know, who's a successor for that manager over there? And how do I get on a succession plan? What do I need to do to ready myself for that position or for that manager over there? What skills do I need? What training can I do? Disrupt the succession plan. The third thing, I think we talked about it, right, is get in the office because you can't build a career from home. You know, maybe for you and I, Gary, you know, in the, in the, in the autumns of our careers, you know, it's, it's okay to be, to be sitting at home and, and commanding the troops. But, you know, for those in the, in the spring and the summer I think it's absolutely critical to be in the office, to build the network, to learn from each other, to learn from other people, to absorb the culture, and to make sure that you are present and known.

And you want to be in people's faces. Is there a place for hybrid or no?

Look, if I was starting a career today, in the first few years, I would be in the office 5 days a week. That's me. That's exactly what I'd be doing. I don't care what people say. I'd be absolutely in there. Even if there's only 5 people, I'd make a point of being in there. I think there is, once you've established your career and once you know, once you're in the company and perhaps, you know, you've built up your brand, you've built up your awareness of who you are and what you can do, then, you know, then you step back and maybe, you know, move down to 4 days or 3 days a week. I think any less than 3 days a week, is not good for you and early in your career, in my honest opinion. It's okay for us, you know, with a dog at home or a cat at home and, you know, a few kids running around. You know, if you're early in your career living in an apartment somewhere on your own, that's not healthy. So getting into the office isn't just about building a career. It's also good for your well-being. Energy, isn't it?

Yeah. Perfect. Listen, I've only got time for one more question. I'm going to get to musical taste. So this has been amazing. Looking back on your career, you kind of— you answered about the presenting part, but looking back on your career, if you had the chance to do maybe one thing differently or do it again, what would it be?

Probably two things, actually, Gary, I'm sorry to say.

You do it, you go for it.

The first thing is I would have taken more risks early on in my career. You know, I walked into HR and had a passion for it, which was good. As I mentioned before, no passion, no point, right? But during my early career, everyone kept saying to me, Nick, you should be in sales. Nick, you should move into sales. You know, you're very good at people, you're very good at selling. And I just wish I would have given myself a chance to do a sales job. And you know what people always say to me, just on that segue, you know, should you choose a company or should you choose a manager? Right. And everyone said, oh, you choose your manager, you choose your manager. I would just like to say, Gary, I think early on in your career, I don't think you can be that specific. I would choose company before manager. Okay. You know, once you're in that company, you know, the world is your oyster, right? A good company has a good culture, has good opportunities, good career opportunity. And, you know, the company that I worked for had an opportunity for me to move if I wanted to, to pursue a career in sales. I didn't take it.

I didn't take it. Okay. We didn't do too bad, so that's all right.

No, but I could have. I mean, maybe I'd have been a shit salesperson. Who knows? I just don't know. Right now I'm questioning myself. I will never know if if I'd have been good in sales or not. And that kind of eats away at me a little bit.

And what's your number 2? Because then we're going to get to music.

I think moving. I got too comfortable in a couple of companies and maybe it was a time in my life where comfort was important to me or necessary. But I just wish I would have, I would have left a couple of companies a little bit earlier, pushed my boundaries.

I think that's good advice because I think it's easy to be comfortable and not everyone wants to move, but I think that's great advice.

I think that you've got to move. I think sometimes you've got to move out to move up, right? And you shouldn't be moving out unless you're moving up, by the way.

Yeah, move out, move up.

Unless there's a disaster of a situation, a toxic environment, then move out, get out, just get out. You know, don't be afraid just to get out if it's not working and it doesn't always work, right? But certainly in most cases you'd be moving out to move up.

Okay, thank you so much. Listen, Nick, I'm going to ask you a musical taste, but before we do, thank you so much. That was Nick Gold right there. And a great opportunity for people to get inside your head and really understand another perspective that wouldn't normally get. So thank you so much for coming back on, really appreciate it. And let's go to your musical taste. We've had your musical taste before, let's see if it's moved. One or two songs, we have this playlist for all of our guests, things that inspire you, things that are interesting to you, one or two tracks, what do you got?

I would say Bastille are probably still my favorite band. They're British, I think they've, there's an edge to them, and I would say that Icarus or Pompeii are probably still two of my favorite songs. And I had the opportunity to go to a concert with my mum, my late mother, where we watched Bastille live. That's great. And good memories. So those two songs are epic for me.

Brilliant. Thank you so much. I thought Bastille were French, but who knew they were a British band? And that's a great end to the podcast.

That's not very cool.

Thanks so much.

I know I'm not cool. You're the cool guy, right? Thanks so much for coming on. And we'll see you again soon.

Pleasure. Thanks, Gary.

Thanks for listening, and thanks to Nick for coming back for another truly insightful episode. If you've enjoyed it, you can scroll back through the archive at thecompanydoctor.com and listen to Nick's thoughts on proving your professional value in episode 7. You'll also find various show notes and blogs and plenty of other episodes to get stuck into. See you next time.