Inventive Incentives...without Cash with Gary Gamp, The Company Doctor #12

After all, all art is experience.

Hello and welcome to The Company Doctor. This episode we're talking about how to motivate yourself and those around you without having to rely solely on pay rises and bonuses. It's full of interactive ways to discover the keys to master your own motivation, and Gary really delivers on the advice and expert tips. Just like he does in all our episodes, which can be found at thecompanydoctor.com, where you can also sign up to our blog. So all that's left for me to say is, the company doctor will see you now, and we hope you enjoy the show.

Please don't send me proof of payment.

Gary, how are you doing? Hello.

Hey George, you don't sound very motivated today.

Really? Well, I'm trying my best.

Well, you didn't.

I didn't. Okay, I'll up it. I'll up the enthusiasm.

Let's up the enthusiasm. Let's make it natural. Today we're talking Inventive Incentives.

Yeah, which was a very clever title.

I think you came up with it, right?

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I was pretty proud of that. It's one of the best things I've done.

Well, good. Well, great. Um, yeah, because we want to talk about motivating people but without money, hopefully.

Yes, exactly.

As we're talking, it's a beautiful sunny day full of rain today, and a woman's gone past my front door wearing one of those plastic hats. And if you ever remembers an old auntie or grandma It's like a PVC hat. It's such a clever idea.

You don't see them much.

Strangely not. Anywho, let us kick off. It's a big topic and there's 3 parts, weirdly, to this.

The classic formula.

Classic formula, it seems to work. We're gonna stick with it. The first part is carrot and sticks because I'm going to be controversial right from the start and What I want to say is we're going to explore a little bit motivation in a new, with a new lens, because the problem with most motivation in companies is certainly in most organizations is a bit 1980s, to be honest, which is a bit controversial. I know.

What do you mean by that?

Well, it kind of follows a formula that we've all kind of grown up with, which is the carrot and stick formula, which is either you either, you know, give someone cash Yeah. Or you kick them up the backside and that drives them to the next stages in theory.

Yeah. Okay.

And I want to, I want to kind of build on that. It does work to some degree, but I think it's limited. I want, yeah, we're going to talk about Motivation 2.0.

Okay, 2.0. Nice.

I like it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so how do we move away from that?

Well, we're going to start off by explaining the, the most— I'm going to prove to you and everyone listening, and by the way, this is focused on people that our managers have people in the team, at least one, or for yourself. Although if you're on your own, you're gonna have to talk to yourself a bit. But the first thing I want to talk about, I want to kind of brainstorm with you, George, if that's okay.

Are you up for it? Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, I'm ready.

It's early in the morning, but we'll give it a go. And I want to know from you, and just quick fire, what do you think motivates people? Can you just chuck things at me? What motivates people, do you think?

Uh, well, I think money, definitely. Uh, higher status. In the company.

Status.

Yes. Yeah. Professional pride in the work that you're doing.

Okay. This is like the Generation Game, isn't it? Yeah.

Lovely toy. Uh-uh. Yeah. What else?

Go on, give me one more, make it good.

No pressure. What motivates?

Bragging rights.

Did I say that one already?

No. Bragging rights.

Security.

Yeah, I think security is a good one. Okay, so listen, because, because of time and being a helpful kind of guy, I put them into buckets. The first bucket is reward. So people like money is an important motivator, but it's not as important as people think. And a good example for me is, you know, if you think about football players, a lot of people are concerned that they earn too much money and it doesn't necessarily make them a better player. They get the money because they're a good player. But there's another form of motivation that makes them a better player. And you've all seen people on a good day and a bad day. So money is a short-term motivator. Motivator. Yeah, other things under reward are recognition. You know, probably recognition is the most important motivator, I guess, at work. Have you ever received, uh, like a text message or a letter in your career ever that said, 'Job well done, George'?

You know what, I have. I've received it. Well, it's more of an email situation, and I have, and it means the absolute world. And it's funny that you don't get many of them. Well, I don't anyway. It's odd that it's not something which you, you know, you don't see it that much. And I think that it's definitely, it's a big motivator for me, certainly.

Certainly is, and it was for me. I've still got one on my desk and I don't need, I work for myself now, but I kept it because it meant a lot to me. So, you know, rewards are one bucket. The second one is stimulation. It's the role, it's the company, it's the potential of that organization. Because you want to know that the company I'm working for is going somewhere and I want to be part of something that hopefully is going to succeed. Yeah. The third bucket is the environment, and what I mean by that is, is not necessarily the office, but it's the atmosphere, it's my colleagues. I mean, a good example for me is I used to work in an office that was called The Shed, and the reason it was called The Shed is because it was one, right? And the toilet used to leak on my desk. It was that good. But that was the best place I ever worked. It was the best place I ever worked because of the people I was working with, what we were trying to do as a company, It really excited me. Okay. And the final one is balance. Now, people do have a life outside of work. They might be in a cause or they might have a hobby. And, you know, it used to be taboo to talk about having a family life and balance in your life. But you know what? It's not anymore, is it?

No, it's the opposite. I would say it's a huge part of people's professional lives now, is making, you know, and a really attractive thing about companies is that they will offer, you know, flexi-working and great work-life balance. So yeah, it's done a 180, I think, the perception of that.

Exactly. So now I'm going to prove to you, because we're talking about— we're going to get to the Motivation 2.0, but I want to prove to you that, think, you know, some of the regular carrot and stick motivators are not enough to move the dial for most people. Okay, I've got a secret question, right? And the answer to the secret question is the secret to what really motivates people. What do you think of that? Wow. I know, it's a bit of a wow, right? And then I'm going to link it back to some ideas. So here it is, I'm going to ask you the question. Are you ready for it? I haven't pre-prepped you, I know.

No, no, I'm blind.

And you're wearing your Jam hat, you're all ready. This is you. So this is the secret to motivation for everyone listening. The answer to this question, think of a time in your whole career, it doesn't have to be now, when you were most motivated and engaged. Think of a time when you were most motivated and engaged and why. What were the factors that made you motivated and engaged? And on the other side, think of a time where you were least motivated and engaged and what were the factors? The key thing is the factors for both. So why were you most motivated and engaged? What were the factors? And why were you least motivated and what were the factors? Let's start with the most. You're on the spot. Let's see what you can do.

No, that's fine. I think a time when I was most motivated— I mean, obviously I won't mention companies or anything, but it was the reasons for being that motivated were being proud of the place that I was working in. So I was, you know, I was pleased and happy and proud to work for this company. Great. And I really liked what they did. I like the output of the work that they did, and I love the people that I worked with.

Okay.

And I think those three, those, that's the trifecta of things which—

So you're proud about what the company was trying to do and you like the people and that really motivated you? Exactly. Fantastic.

Okay.

What, think about when you were least motivated and engaged. Yeah. And think of a why. Again, don't mention the company, of course. No. And this is for everyone listening in, do this because you're, it's a bit of a secret, it's going to unlock.

Okay. I think the reasons, uh, casting my mind back to when I was least motivated, I think the reasons for behind that were It was almost the opposite of the reasons for really enjoying the place where I was, but it was sort of, I didn't care that much about the company. I didn't love the way it was run. I wasn't getting recognition for the work that I was doing. I wasn't hugely proud of the work that I was doing, which I think was linked to the fact that I wasn't massively invested in what was happening there. And I didn't have a great connection with the people that I was working with.

So yeah. And what about, do you mean the boss or do you mean the people in the team or?

The management. I think the people in the team, although fantastic, you know, that they were brilliant and they were a reason that I stuck around, but I think the management side of things wasn't great. And yeah, it was demotivating.

And that's a common one. I think a lot of people leave a company because of their boss. So if you're a boss, it's your fault.

Sort it out.

Sort yourself out, get it done. So this is really interesting. So Now we're going to kind of talk about, I'm going to come back to this because I think what's interesting to me in here is you haven't spoken about money. You didn't say I didn't earn enough money. I mean, obviously you want to earn enough money. Yeah. Money is not, is not the reason. And people make the mistake when they talk about salespeople, that salespeople are motivated by money. Some are, they're generally not. They're motivated by doing a good job and making a difference and, and a whole bunch of other things which we're going to cover. Yeah. So I'm going to move on to Motivation 2.0 because I know you want me to get there.

That's what—

yeah. And I've got 3 extra topics to consider to add to the carrot and stick. Okay. And they've got 3 words. The first one is autonomy. Okay. Right, what is that? Well, autonomy is giving you the freedom to choose how you do stuff. Yeah, yeah. Netflix, you choose when you watch the program. The, the regular TV company doesn't direct you, you decide where you work. And most people Have you ever liked being micromanaged?

No.

A bit of a leading question, isn't it? Yeah. No one likes to be micromanaged. And so, I don't know why managers micromanage people because none of us like it. Yeah. I remember once my wife had an operation and so she couldn't do a lot of stuff, so she gave me some projects to do on the weekend. And I'm pretty good at doing projects, but she's better. So, she basically kind of checked up on me all the time and I realized she was a micromanager. Sorry if Jane is listening. But the important thing is that no one likes being micromanaged. So autonomy is an important thing, isn't it, for people to do? Yeah, definitely. And I'd like to— I'd recommend a book. There's a book called Drive by a guy called Daniel Pink. Okay. And it's a really good book about this topic that we're covering. And he gives an example of— they always give an example of an experiment that's done with monkeys for some reason. But the monkeys were given puzzles to do. And after 2 weeks, they worked out how to do the puzzles. So he was quite impressed. So they thought, what we'll do is we'll incentivize them, we'll give them some food, we'll give them a carrot— not literally. And guess what happened when they gave them the food?

They just started eating it and stopped doing the puzzles.

It actually slowed them down because what they found out is that the monkeys like doing puzzles. They enjoyed doing puzzles. That's why they were good at it. So giving people autonomy is important, right? Okay, number 2. Number 2 is mastery. Mastery. Okay. Yeah. Any ideas? No. Yeah, good. Well, mastery is about doing the stuff that you enjoy doing. Now, if you think about, you know, you're into music, George, you're creative. Yeah, you got it. So basically, you're really good at stuff you enjoy doing. And if you think about work, you know, people should spend more time doing the things they enjoy doing. I'm not saying you have to do good stuff, you have to do other things that are boring, right? But yeah, people do a better job at things they like doing. So mastery is a really important thing.

And does that mean you should focus your efforts more on just doing the things that you enjoy, or how do you sort of take ownership of that?

Well, if you want to motivate someone, they'll do a better job of things they enjoy doing. I'm not saying that they shouldn't do the boring stuff, because obviously they need to, but there's a clue in there exactly.

Right.

We're going to come to some ideas about what we do with this, right? Okay. So autonomy, people like to have the freedom to not be micromanaged. They're smart people, let me go on with life. Yeah, mastery. People like to do things they like to do and they get better at doing them. So therefore, square peg in round hole doesn't work very well. My wife is really good at doing puzzles. You know, she can do a crossword in 3 minutes flat where I'm still stuck on the first question. And you know, she's, she's a creative person and she's really good at doing puzzles. Yeah, my kids are very creative and you know, they're very good at doing creative things. And but if they, if they end up having to do something that is financial or non-creative. They don't enjoy doing it and they're not good at it. Yeah. So I think, you know, the important takeaway for me with my family— and it's the same for me, I'm more creative than I am, I don't like financial models and they confuse me a little bit. Yes, I think it's the same. So if you, if you've got people in your team, put the right people in the right places. Don't get the cricket players playing football, and then you'll, you'll be surprised with the result. I like that. And the third one, and most important of all, is purpose. Right. You know, we've, we've covered quite a lot of that stuff on the different podcasts. And in fact, one of our guests coming up is going to be talking about purpose, which is going to be great. But purpose is about kind of doing the stuff that you believe matters. You believe in the cause and you believe it matters. Yeah. And I think this, this is a real miss for most companies because I had the fortune of visiting the headquarters of Airbnb and, you know, they were running around on scooters and there was 14 restaurants and each of the meeting rooms was done out like a one of the villas that they rent out. It was the most amazing place. It's easy to be excited about working in Airbnb, but what about where we work now? If I work in a company that's not as exciting, can I make the sense of purpose good enough that I can excite people in my team that this is a good place to work and they believe in the cause? Like you said at the beginning.

That is, yeah, I find that one of the most fascinating topics. And we had Doug Atkin from Airbnb and we had Will Perkins from Deliveroo. Both saying the same thing. They were both sort of saying one of our key roles and one of the things that we do and we do best is motivating our team through getting them on board with the company message and the brand values. So yeah, I do find that very interesting. It's definitely one of the most important factors.

So now let's link back to what you said at the beginning about what motivates people, because if we look at that, you know, that list and look at the times where you were most motivated and engaged, it was when you were proud about doing something, you like working with a team, that whole environment. That's a really important part, but it's not a carrot and stick. Yeah, that's around a sense of purpose of working with that team. And you, you were a subject matter expert in your team, so you were the master of your, your own activity. Yeah. And then when you were least motivated, engaged, is when you weren't recognized. The recognition is probably the most important demotivator or motivator for people. So when, you know, a good example for me is in Google, they have something called 20% time. Okay. You're interested to know what that is, aren't you?

Well, I am. Well, no, I've heard of it before, but yes, we do a similar thing where I work and I think it's great. It's a great thing to do.

Well, the thing is, if you're hiring smart people, shouldn't you kind of ask them what they think? So basically the idea is you can spend 20% of your time coming up with ideas in Google, but 80% of the new ideas come from the 20% time. Yeah. And that's the mastery bit really working. And again, back to your, when you were least motivated, your management didn't give you the opportunity to be the expert. And that, yeah, that's intimidating and you just don't feel recognized and you don't feel worthy. Yeah. It affects people's self-belief. So, you know, that's a really key thing. And then, and then the final one on purpose. Yeah, purpose is the most important thing that, that most companies ignore. Yeah. So here's the rub, right? So the most important— if you, if you add the two things together, so on, on one hand side you've got External motivation, it's the carrots, it's the sticks, it's the leadership boards. Yeah, it's the kick up the backside stuff, you know. That is okay, I'm not saying there isn't a place for it, but on its own it just doesn't work. Yeah, that's why expensive football players fail, because they're not motivated from within. Yeah, yeah. Internal motivation, the autonomy, the purpose, the mastery, the passion, the fun is in my heart. That's what really motivates me. I'm the most motivated where I'm motivated, I'm self-motivated because I can see the cause, I'm allowed to do what I'm good at, I'm left to get on with it. Does that make sense?

It does, yeah.

And is it an easy switch for companies to make or is it something which has to be sort of built up over a long period of time?

Well, I think it's an easy switch, but I just think it's a misunderstood switch. Yeah. Because I don't think people take time to consider it because if you think about it, sales incentives are made up on carrots and sticks.. And the problem with the target— and I'm not saying you shouldn't have incentives— but the problem with the target, if I'm a sales guy, for example, you're giving me a target. It's not my target, you're giving me your target, and I'm not bought into that. I am because I want to get— I want to keep my job, I guess. But that's the kick up the backside thing. But if I could set my own target and stretch my own goal for my own reasons, then that would make the big difference. That's really where we're going. Yeah. So, you know, how do we bring it all back together? So let you know, so there's the idea. So carrots and sticks are fine, but they're external. Internal motivation— autonomy, purpose, and mastery, maybe a bit of fun thrown in— yeah, are within. So I'm gonna drive there. How can you work that with people, do you think? So if you've got, you've got a team of people, how do you get over this problem that most people have as they kind of guess what people are motivated by? A good example is You know, I've got people in my team, I presume that technical people are not motivated by money, and I presume salespeople are motivated by cash. And that's absolutely wrong.

Well, I suppose you do what so many companies don't do and communicate with your employees and ask them. I suppose you ask what it is that motivates.

Absolutely. And so that, you know, that is the first trick. I know it sounds like an obvious one, and I'm sure a lot of managers do that. I'm not suggesting they don't. But don't make an assumption about what motivates people. Ask them. And, you know, and whatever they come up with is their thing. It doesn't mean it's right. It's not right or wrong. It's whatever works for them. And then, you know, if you think about the mastery idea, where you can, if you can make sure that you've got the square peg not in the round hole but in the square hole, then they've got a better chance of being better at what they do. So maybe you've got some of your people in the wrong positions. To play to their strengths that's demotivating them. There's always a reason getting behind it. So yeah, asking people is important. So basically, if you took— now, I don't know how many— if everyone takes their, say, the top 10 people in their team and just over time— I'm not— it's not an interrogation— you find out what motivates them, then, you know, write that down and keep that and work with them on it and just find— and some people don't find it easy to explain what motivates them.

No, for sure. And you're right, it does take time. It's not something which you can be like, right, send me 5 things that motivate you and I'll just make that happen. It's a nurturing thing, isn't it? And it takes a while, but it's definitely worth doing.

Yeah. And through conversation, you find that, you know, if you invest in people and build a relationship with them, sometimes, you know, again, it's difficult now because we're not all physically in offices together, but outside the working environment. And one of my best bosses used to call me on a Friday just to have a chat. Yeah, to see how I was and not to talk about work and to build a relationship. And as a close friend of mine today, yeah, we stay in each other's houses, you know, we've known each other for 25 years. That's great. But that's because that person invested in me and knew what motivated me. In fact, one, one year he made— because I wasn't taking holidays, he made me put holidays in my objectives. Oh really? Yeah. Wow. So you'll take a holiday, and if you don't do it, you fail your objectives. So you would like to work for a boss like that, right?

Yeah, yeah, definitely. It makes such a huge difference.

Absolutely. Another boss would give me a call at the end of the week and say, you know, thanks for all the really good stuff you've done this week, I really appreciate it, have a nice weekend. It's like, blimey, that doesn't happen very often.

Yeah, it doesn't. I mean, that doesn't take much, does it? But it would just— it makes the world of difference in terms of your motivation.

Definitely it does. Although it did backfire on me once. I had a guy who worked— I had quite a few when I was in corporate life, which is a long time ago. I had about 1,000 people in my team, and there's one particular guy in Switzerland that did a really good job. So I got his manager to give me his mobile number so I could call him and thank him. And I called him, he was on holiday, I didn't know. He gets the call from the big boss and he's thinking, I'm about to be fired on this holiday. Oh, he goes, uh, yeah. I said, Fritz, I just want to say what a fantastic job you did.

You were—

oh, thank you.

Must have been terrified.

Yeah, it's a big relief. A big relief. Okay, so final thing I want to cover is self-belief.

Yeah, that's a big one, the big one.

Yeah, because I think what, uh, what happens is that, you know, it— we get caught up in our lives, we're working really hard. Generally, people are— haven't got the time to take the time in, in our lives, and, and it affects our self-belief because then we start thinking, well, the boss isn't speaking to me, they're not giving me the pat on the back now and then. Not that we need it all the time, And then we start to doubt ourselves. We start thinking, well, it's obviously— he obviously doesn't think I'm any good. And, you know, and you start doubting yourself. So I wanted to just cover that, uh, as we get to the end of the podcast, which is, you know, basically you should have an unreasonable expectation of yourself. Give yourself a goal, be more energized as a person because it's a decision, and make it a habit. But you, again, you know, you'll know the way we cover things. You, you need to take control of your, your own motivation, because if, yeah, if motivation is more powerful internally within you, then, then surely that we can make that work for ourselves if our boss isn't doing it for us. Yeah, does that make sense?

It does. It's sort of like this idea of manifesting, isn't it? But, but actually making it happen.

Yeah, so, so, you know, the, and the way to do that is to set what I call unreasonable expectations of yourself. Yeah, give yourself a goal. Here's my example. Have you heard of Roger Bannister?

Yes, I have. The man who, uh, ran the mile in the fastest time—

first, yeah, the 5-minute mile.

Yeah, absolutely, that was it.

Yeah, he did the 4-minute mile. And this is the interesting thing, and this is a test of self-belief. After he did the 4-minute mile, within the next 2 weeks, 47 other people did it because they believed it could be done.

Wow, I didn't know that. That is fascinating.

It's a great story. So what are your unreasonable expectations for the rest of this year and into next year? You know, you set yourself a goal. So if you're not getting the sense of mastery because you're not doing the work you want to do, then find a path to get there for yourself. If you're not feeling the sense of purpose where you are, again, work with the team and see if you can help, you know, have those conversations, or ultimately maybe you need to find a different place to work, whether in the company you're in or elsewhere. And from an autonomy point of view, it's a slightly more difficult conversation to be had because don't go to your boss and say, stop micromanaging me. It doesn't work very well, generally.

Yeah, no, it doesn't go down well. And just quickly, is it— I was just going to ask this earlier, but is it possible for managers to overdo this? I mean, is it in terms of sort of, you know, the recognition and stuff, is there a warning to be to be issued about not going too far the other way, if you know what I mean.

What do you mean, like, to be too nice to people? Don't be too nice to people.

Yeah, I mean, I just think that if you're constantly saying well done and what a great job you've done, it might start losing its appeal. I think the reason it means so much is because it is a little bit few and far between.

Yeah, no, I think it's a good point, George. I think the, the print is— this is not like Happy Valley where you just tell everyone they're amazing all the time, because then they, you know, they might think they're amazing when they're not. So I'm not suggesting we're fake to people. Yeah. It's just about, probably the more important thing is to understand what people are good at. It's knowing them enough anyway, understand what they're good at. Have you created a sense of purpose for the team? And it's a good team exercise to do it. So what are we here for? What's our why, if you like? And then you can link everything back to that. So when you're talking to people, you'll know if they're missing the mark on, you know, because you should hold people to account if they're not doing it. I'm not suggesting we let people get away with stuff. Yeah, that's not the point. But the main thing is to understand what motivates people, and then you give them a chance to be better at what they do. And then you can say, look, you're normally better than this. I'm surprised you didn't do that. You don't normally make mistakes like that. Yeah, but it's not based on a thing, you know, like where sometimes a manager goes, oh, you're— you've done that again, or you always do that.

People—

yeah, it doesn't— it needs to be specific. So I think you're right. I don't— I'm not suggesting we Yeah, make everyone feel amazing, and it's in a fake way, but it's just trying to highlight people's strengths so that they get better at it.

Great, that makes sense.

Now, if I said to you, look, George, you're the most amazing creative writer, and why don't you write this because you're the best at writing? Yeah. How do you feel?

I feel pretty happy about that.

Yeah, and you are, you really are, and I really mean it.

And I also think that we, uh, we haven't done a t-shirt for a while, and I think it's not a funny t-shirt, but I think having autonomy, mastery, and purpose on a t-shirt would look pretty cool. I'd wear that t-shirt.

I love the idea. So let's go to those 3 takeaways. Yeah. Are you ready? I'm ready. Hit me. Hit me with my carrot and stick. So yeah, number 1 is the carrot and stick. So the point is that external motivation alone doesn't work. Don't get caught up in the 1980s rhetoric about how you motivate people. It just doesn't work on its own. Internal motivation is the accelerator. It's in your heart. Get people to be most self-motivated, but you need to help them get on the ramps to be self-motivated. Yeah. As a manager. Number 2, take the time to understand what motivates each member of the team and yourself. Don't second-guess, as you were saying, get to ask people in a natural way, not an interrogation. Yeah. And over time, get to learn what motivates them. And I remember one of my bosses said, said to me, 'You need to get yourself a big mortgage and expensive car and then you'll be more motivated.' That's not, that's not a way to— well, it is for some, I guess. Yeah, that's not— yeah, more— what's important to me is to have more time with my family and to make a difference in my job.

That's—

those things motivate me personally.

Yeah.

And the third one is, you know, help people work on their self-belief. Now, what are your unrealistic, unreasonable expectations for the rest of the year, and can you get your team to have one? And I mean, you know, an unreasonable expectation is stretching but achievable. And most important, what is the purpose for you individually and for your team? Those are the 3, those are my 3 takeaways.

Great, great takeaways. And I feel like I've sort of learned a bit about myself this episode as well. I've never really asked myself what motivates me, so I feel like I've, yeah, it's good.

I think it's good as long as you don't answer back.

No, start having an argument with myself.

Exactly.

Gary, thanks very much. As always, it's been fascinating, and thanks to everyone for listening. We'll see you next time.

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