Is AI a Force for Good? With Peter Yeung #78

After all, all art is experience.

Hello and welcome to The Company Doctor, where today we're extraordinarily pleased to be joined by Peter Young, Chief Information Officer and Global DPO at leading digital experience platform provider Optimizely. Gary and Peter are tackling one of the hottest topics of the day: AI, and whether or not it should be ultimately seen as a force for good. Peter is also a guinea pig for the trial run of a new section on The Company Doctor episodes yet to be named, in which I grill our guests with a series of quickfire questions. Needless to say, Peter absolutely smashes it. Gary and Peter, it's over to you.

Hey Peter, thanks so much for joining the Company Doctor podcast. It's so nice to have you.

Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's a real pleasure and an honor to be invited.

Oh, listen, we're honored to have you because the topic today is, is AI a force for good? And I think a lot of people are wondering It's going to be a really interesting discussion and we're really keen to get into your knowledge and expertise. But before we do, I think it would be really great if you could share a little bit about yourself and your company, Peter. What makes Peter, Peter?

Sure. So I'm Peter Young. I'm the Chief Information Officer and Global Data Protection Officer for Optimizely. Optimizely is the leading digital experience platform in the marketplace right now. And we have AI infused across all of our platforms, which range from helping you to plan and ideate your marketing campaigns, initiatives, copy, content to a content management platform that publishes it with a digital asset management system to store much of that content behind it, as well as an experimentation platform that allows you to test and personalize your experiences across all of your digital platforms and an e-commerce platform that allows you to engage in that, in those endeavors with your customers or your audience. And we have a data backing that allows for all of these things to be connected. Used in its totality, it's quite a powerful digital experience platform that many, many enterprise companies use.

Amazing. You can see why we wanted to invite you on now, with all that knowledge. Interesting though, Peter, looking at your career in the past, didn't you start in law? Wasn't that your early career?

That's right, that's right. I am a trained and certified attorney and started my career actually at the very beginning, started as a management consultant working on large technology implementations back in the day. So in the early 2000s, you saw a lot of technological changes and the pervasive use of even things that we take for granted these days, like databases.

Yeah, exactly.

Uh, you, um, the adoption of web technology at a really frightening pace, uh, during, during that time. And everybody wanted to get on the web, although not many people really knew what it meant or what the impact is, much to the same journey that I think, uh, AI is on right now. But after that period of time, I, uh, did train and qualify to be a lawyer, uh, back in the US. And spent some time doing pro bono work and practices in the background while I joined a friend of mine, Chris Lutz's startup, which was really one of the first e-commerce platforms built on a technology stack from Microsoft called .NET as a programming language.

Yeah, I remember that. And the other thing that I found interesting about you, which makes this conversation so interesting, is you were also Chief People Officer as well, weren't you, in the company?

Yeah, that's right. That's right. I've, I've had the privilege of working at Optimizely through the acquisition of that e-commerce business for just about 18 years now. And so in those 18 years, if you include the years in the startup business, I've held a lot of different roles and opportunities, and that included Chief People Officer for nearly a year, which is really funny. It was one of those things that my wife said they really need someone sympathetic and empathetic to be running HR in the business. I'm not sure you're quite that person, but—

How mean of her. Well, I think it's great, 'cause it leads itself to my first question, because now we've got a lawyer who's been HR that is now a CIO, and here's my question for you, Peter. Is AI a force for good or a force for evil?

It's a great question, and I think that the final chapters on it are left to be determined. I think with any great technological advancement, there are pros and cons that come with it. And I think the market drive of AI, I think, is ultimately for good. It's to create faster results, better outcomes for people, and something that can really improve people's lives. If you take a look at the application of AI, say, in the medical field, where oncology has really embraced it, and you take a look at the application of improving patients' outcomes using AI and the massive amount of data that it can churn through and draw narratives from and identify, you're crossing the chasm of decades of what it would have taken a non-AI path to do. And so from that aspect, it's very, very good. Now, it can also be used for evil as well. And we've seen that in the way that the augmentation of The security profiles and the threat profiles that exist now that are augmented by AI are considerable. So things that fall by the wayside, such as voice recognition against your bank account, is almost meaningless now because you only need about a 10-15 second clip of someone speaking before they can replicate your voice, right? So there's, there's a lot to be said and a lot to be done in terms of the governance around AI, but I think with the right legislation in place, which is slow to catch up, I think with the right intent in place that it can be predominantly a force for good.

Yeah, and that's what we hope. And that's what, you know, but everyone is adding it to their business profile, I guess. But one of the things that people ask me a lot, and I wanted to ask you because of your background, is if I wanted to pivot my career, how do I get on the right side of AI?

It's a great question. I would say, There's a lot of ways of going about it, but it really starts with what is it that you want to do? And it's a question that I often ask some of my team members or some of my colleagues that I get to work with and some of our partners, which is what is it that you want to do? The application of AI and its use has almost become ubiquitous in daily discussions. And so the discussion around what would you like to do within AI can make a real difference in terms of What do you need to do to start getting on the stepping ladder to engage? Now, from a developer perspective, there are a ton of free education modules that are being presented by the likes of Microsoft and OpenAI and Google and Meta as well, and Amazon, that will enable people that want to get into the nuts and bolts of how, you know, the maturation from machine learning to AI to what is beyond is available for those pick up. But if you want to talk about how AI develops from a practical standpoint, it really starts with, I, I think, educating, uh, yourself and seeing what's out in the marketplace, whether it's finding vendors or podcasts like yourselves, uh, podcasts or news channels to really examine how is that impacting your line of business or the areas of your interest, uh, and then picking up those discussions and then start talking to some of those, uh, those industry leaders about what that application means. You don't have to work at a company to actually talk to them and go, well, how are you presenting AI? What is it that you want to do? And through those tidbits, like, half of what I learn on AI is actually stuff that I learned from other people through discussion and networking and, and those likes. And there's, there's a lot of information out there. It can be completely overwhelming given the volume of information that's out there, but That being said, I think if you really decide how you want to think about AI in a particular application, that's a great place to start.

That's good advice. And can you think of an example where AI has significantly improved someone's lives or could do?

Yeah, absolutely. I think what we had discussed before, I think the application of AI in the medical industry is nothing short of astonishing. And I think that is a major improvement that people will continue to see in their lives and will continue across many different practice and principles in medicine around that. But I think in terms of productivity at work, you're already starting to see a vast majority of individuals working in businesses using openly available AI tools such as ChatGPT in sort of their daily dialogue. Now, that comes with pros and cons, right? We, we discussed previously how the application of AI can be for good or for bad. And while the truthfulness of what AI responds back is oftentimes called into question, the foundation of the data that feeds it is an area that, um, I think becomes more interesting to people. And I think once you realize the datasets that are available, that's where AI can produce a lot of excellent results and improve people's lives. So people using ChatGPT or Microsoft Copilot to help generate a thesis or a paper or a statement or a presentation by a couple simple sentences and having it auto-generate saves hours of work. And it's not to say it can do the end-to-end results, But what it does is give you a jumpstart and save you a few hours or days or weeks in, in that sort of content creation area or image generation or video generation. And that's predominantly where you're seeing the power of AI drive improvements in people's lives right now. But look, people use it to say, look, I've got 72 hours in Corfu, build me an itinerary and what I should see. On my holiday, and it does a pretty decent job of building that out too. So I think the application of AI, depending on the datasets that are available, is incredibly powerful.

Yeah, maybe we don't quite know yet, yeah, what you're saying. And as a CIO, what's the effect on technology and innovation?

Oh, it's massive. It is absolutely massive because you cannot have a conversation these days in the tech space without having a firm position on what you want to do with AI and how that affects not just what you offer as a capability to your customer, but how you really drive that total cost of ownership down and how you get that return on investment quicker and higher based on the use of platform. And so, the impact of AI is both from, as a software vendor, what we can give to our customers, but internally facing in the area that I look after, quite pervasively is the use of AI within our own business to, to help enable people to get to information faster, to make decisions better, uh, and to create content and, uh, materials quicker to deploy into the market. And so we're using, uh, internal AI from everything from, hey, instead of going through a ton of time into Salesforce to find information about a customer that you're going to have a conversation with, We've enabled chatbots to give you summary information from multiple sources of data about a customer to go, look, these are the people, this is what you talked about last time, these are the products they bought, this is their general tenor, and these are the conversation points that you should highlight in that space based on a variety of interaction points across the business.

I was reading one of your blogs, which was 5 Reasons Why Software Consolidation Is Top of Mind for CIOs. And what you were saying is that economic uncertainty plus this generative AI propelled IT and tech consolidation. Tell us a bit more about that because it sounds like it's the perfect storm to have economic uncertainty and generative AI is what you're saying. Why is that?

Yeah, I think it's because AI has become such a disruptor in the marketplace. And with some of the economic uncertainty that we face, I think tech leaders, CIOs, CTOs, CDOs, are all looking at ways of how to get more value out of what your spend is, or, and in, in worst-case scenarios, how to drop your spend and still retain the capabilities and values that you deliver to the business. And AI is a great accelerant of that because ultimately, if you can reduce the hours that it takes to do tasks, it's not removing the human element altogether, but it's all about improving efficiency. Then I think those tech leaders are very quick to gravitate towards the power of AI in an area where you're trying to squeeze more blood out of a stone. And through that, it becomes that perfect storm of an economic environment that's not dire, but it is uncertain, a technology that's rising rapidly and has really penetrated both the consumer market, so the B2C space and the B2B space. And is in sort of top mind of people and everyone scrambling around as to how do you apply the technologies. I think one of the things that is why vendors like ourselves and, and others that are already embedded in a lot of businesses are being at the forefront of implementing AI is because that consolidation is a real thing. Driving total cost of ownership down is a real thing. And so the more vendors that you have, on your plate, the more contracts that you have to negotiate, the more integrations that you have to do, the more compliance and governance that you have to overlay on a wider set, it's costly. So when you can get down to less vendors, but those vendors providing the best-of-breed capabilities within their set, there's one person wearing the jacket that you can go talk to and go, okay, for all of this set of capabilities, I'm holding you accountable to service me. As your customer. And if you have AI built in, you're finding more and more people gravitate to those established vendors that are implementing AI within their systems rather than just going to, you know, startups that have happened in the last 6 months or the last year that are offering a very point solution. Because you're like, oh gosh, this is another vendor that I have to then onboard and then integrate and then make sure it's secure and then, and then, and then It's highly disruptive, but it's a benefit for established vendors if they embrace it correctly and if they can move quickly to show the value of AI accelerants within their platform.

Okay, Peter, welcome to an as-yet unnamed segment of this podcast. We're toying with Claude's Corner, Claude's Quickfire Questions, George's Grill. So we're not sure what it's actually going to be named. But the idea is that we're going to fire a few just sort of quickfire questions at you. I've got 3 or 4 which, yeah, you know, they're sort of building on some of the stuff that you've said during this episode as well. Kicking off with, and you're allowed to say optimizely here if you want to, you mentioned that a good way for businesses to stay ahead of the curve when it comes to AI is to talk to the industry leaders and talk to some people who are sort of really at the forefront of this emerging technology. Who are some of these people? Who are the best people to, to reach out to?

Well, of course I'm going to say Optimizely. I thought you might. I think our strategy around AI and the Opal platform, that it really infuses AI at every point of the marketing journey that goes on through an AI-accelerated workflow, is transformational for businesses that have adopted it. And I think that that adoption through Optimizely has been great. I think you're seeing a lot of great things out of Microsoft as well. In their launch of Copilot, both in the Office suite, or now named Microsoft 365, but also within the Windows platform itself. And you're seeing these new breed of PCs and laptops that are all geared towards AI processing at the local level. So I think you'll find any of the major tech vendors really diving headfirst into AI.

Great. And we've talked about jobs briefly, What sort of jobs, you know, to stay away from the sort of the negative side of things and jobs that will be lost, what sort of jobs do you think are gonna be created over the coming years that are sort of AI specific?

Yeah, so I think in sort of the very baseline of what it means to be more sort of AI driven, you're gonna see so many more jobs open up in the data engineering, data science space, and multiple cohorts that exist within those top line topics of data engineers, data scientists. I think in the analytics space, you'll see a lot of people also opening up different types of jobs in the analytical space. But interestingly enough, you'll see jobs that are gonna come in from other areas that you wouldn't necessarily equate to AI. So if you take a look at chip designers, for example, and people with hardcore engineering skills that aren't quote unquote AI focused, there will be a lot more jobs from the likes of an NVIDIA, AMD, the people that are manufacturing the hardware that is powering a lot of this AI. And I think on the creative side, you're gonna see a lot of creative roles that are going to be opened up to feed the AI because ultimately, again, going back to the data or the content having to be really honed in, you're going to see more of those types of roles to feed the machine. To feed the beast, to create that better brand or the more on-point messaging and what have you. And so you're going to see a lot of secondary and tertiary roles, I think, come as part of the AI revolution.

Well, that will be good news and good for people to hear, I'm sure. Two more questions. From, I guess, from a business perspective, from an Optimizely perspective, what are you guys most cautious of when it comes to development in AI? What are you constantly looking out for?

I think because we're innovating at such a fast rate, making sure that we have that compliance governance layer on top of what we do from an AI perspective is probably the area that we're most cautious of. I think the speed of innovation coming out of Optimizely has been phenomenal and fantastic. And you're starting to see what we couch as not just level 1 AI, which is, you know, what you guys and the general public see through the ChatGPT and sort of helping create content or images or videos. It's really now being insightful with a customer's data, being able to recommend the next experiment that a customer should be running, or which segments are most impactful, or which cohort of customers are showing these kind of behaviors. That's really important. But there's a lot of changing legislation that's trying to catch up to AI and also to keep our customers' data private and secure. Is the thing that, that worries us because it's even more important in this world of AI that we do so. And yeah, that, that would be probably the primary area.

Fantastic. And final question, how much do you use AI on a personal level, sort of day to day?

Oh, day to day, I use it all the time. Uh, I mean, I think I use our own, uh, content marketing platform or a CMP platform, uh, in terms of engaging with the rest of our business because it is our workflow engine. For not just our marketing team, but for our business. And the ability to use AI to accelerate those workflows on any project or any initiative that we work on is critical. And I use that on a daily basis. We use the Microsoft Copilot suite on a fairly daily basis, too, to help create frameworks within presentations or to do simple call-and-responses within Excel. And also, in terms of document retrieval or, Hey, I don't remember where this was mentioned in my emails or my Teams chats. Can you please find it? Use it on a daily basis. And also for me personally, because we're developing some of these tools like our Customer AI tool, which gives you that 360 view, I'm constantly using it and testing it. When I talk to customers and I want to get a briefing on who am I talking to, how are they using our software, what's their adoption like, What path are they on? I use our customer AI tool that we built to get that briefing.

So using it a lot. Well, that's very encouraging to hear that you're an advocate for AI, because I think it'd be worrying if you weren't. Peter, thank you. That concludes this inaugural Claude's Corner, or Claude's Quickfire section. Back to you and Gary.

That was great, George.

Fantastic.

Well, you know, this is really interesting, 'cause I thought what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna ask AI to give me 2 questions to ask Peter on this podcast. And I'm going to give you the 2 questions. I asked it to give me 2 insightful questions. I only got 2 from the AI interaction I had. The first one is this, and it's relevant to this. What do you envision as the most important and exciting positive future application of AI that could transform our world as a step change?

Wow. That's a massive question.

I mean, that is a massive question.

I think the most exciting part of what AI can deliver is really, it actually goes in line with the acceleration of human development, which is I think the establishment of a tool that brings more and more data and information into the hands of people to make better decisions and to let decisions be made by AI that otherwise are with 99% certainty were gonna happen anyway. Is. So I think what it does, and the thing that excites me about AI, is it opens up time for, for all of us, right, to actually use that time to create better strategies, to create better outcomes by spending more time about thinking about what it is that we do. We spend so much time doing work for work's sake, right? You spend a lot of time doing things that are— that are tedious or things that you have to do that are important. But really, if AI can do it, why not let AI do that so you can focus on the bigger and better things? And I think that it's a really interesting inflection point right now because I grew up in a very humble background in a single-parent family, and my mom worked at the Postal Service or the US Postal Service while I was growing up. And I think AI, I think, is often seen as a threat or a challenge mostly because it's an established technology that is impacting white-collar jobs. But the reality is blue-collar jobs have been impacted throughout since the Industrial Revolution to adapt and change through automation that's happening. And so she went from hand-sorting mail to having to then educate herself on how to use these coding machines that were as she described it, spraying little lines on pieces of mail which, which were barcodes to then direct mail, to then learning how to use automated systems that would be able to scan handwritten addresses on envelopes, uh, and then automatically sort, uh, the mail themselves to the dispatch boxes that needed to go outwards. And so, you know, I look at someone like my mother that again, took a very manual job and had over her 30 years at the Postal Service reinvent herself in her job probably 6 or 7 times.

Which is not a bad thing. It's not really a bad thing, is it?

No, no.

And okay, let me ask you my second AI question from the AI bot, because it's very relevant again to this point. And the second question from AI to Peter is, if you could go back to your earlier part of your career, but using AI, what would you do differently?

Oh, uh, that's a great question. Uh, I would probably use AI to get to a wider swath of information faster than I did in the early days of my career. Spending time researching the right way to do things or to take on best practices from a bunch of different sources, whether that's inside or outside of your organization, and getting a more comprehensive global view on on topics and, and areas that you were just learning for yourself for the first time, I think would've been massively accelerated by AI. Now you still have to do reconciliation of the truth, right? You still have to make sure that what AI's telling you is, is factually accurate and indeed what the original content said it was with the right context. But that all being said, the access to getting the information, it's like the first time that you got a web browser, right? Oh my gosh, all of a sudden all this information globally was available to you from a myriad of websites and people publishing stuff and you could read it. But still there is too much for one person to consume and you went to specific watering holes. Well, imagine going back, you know, 20 years, uh, 25 years in my, in my case, and being able to say, well, actually there's one watering hole that you can go to and you can get an expansive list of information and you can Have a conversation with it, having a mentor in a way that you could ask questions to in real conversation and then explore every facet, I think is intriguing.

It is fascinating, isn't it? In fact, I think ChatGPT Search is about to come out, so it would kind of open things up. And just to switch tracks a little bit, Peter, could you explain your thoughts on singularity or to people listening, robots taking over? Are we worried?

No, I don't think people should be worried about it. I love the Terminator movies for one, and I think that that is— it is great from a lot of reasons because it's a futuristic view of the application of technology. In that case, a bad application of technology. But I don't think so. I don't think the robots are coming to replace us. I think ultimately what you're looking at is AI is not going to replace people, right? What AI is going to do is people that know AI are going to replace people that don't know how to use AI. And I think that that's what the larger populace right now is trying to get their heads around. And to one of your earlier questions of how do you get engaged in AI, well, there's a multitude of ways to do it, but it takes that human endeavor, that human spirit of creativity, that human spirit of, of always wanting to know what is the next thing, um, that AI can't, can't account for. And so the creative parts of, uh, of the human endeavor, the creative parts of, uh, the human spirit, uh, and the natural curiosity, I think, are going to drive it. And using AI as a tool to drive more time and more focus for humans to do that, I think I think it's a good thing. People are right to worry, don't get me wrong, in terms of, will AI replace my job? They are right to think that because there are some jobs that will go away, just like any substantive technology that gets introduced. But those that opt to say, look, instead of fighting against the wave, I'm gonna ride the wave and I'm gonna embrace how AI is applied to my job for benefit.

Okay, so here's my last question for you then based on that, and this is really helpful, thank you. If you could give people listening, and most of the people listening are kind of in business to business, 3 tips for people to take advantage, a business advantage of AI, what would they be if they can only give 3?

Sure, I think sort of top of mind, I would start with understand the value of what you're trying to do with AI. And that comes back to what's your purpose, what's your outcome? And as you start thinking about that, think about your value chain in terms of how capabilities are delivered within your business. Because the application of AI shouldn't just be, look, we have a process, we have technology, and we have people doing what they are today. And those are the 3 major points of any value chain, right? The people, the process, the technology. And the critical one that's always left out is the data, but we'll come back to that. But think about the value chain because the application of AI is an opportunity to really rethink your business. Really rethink how you've maybe positioned things in silos within organizations. Maybe decision-making is split all over the place, but the application of AI really is reliant on cross-functional capabilities coming together. And it's an opportunity to think about how do you want to use AI to improve your business and start thinking about some real strategic bets, something that will differentiate what you do today and what you do tomorrow. This is not just making an existing process better. This is a way of reinventing things. So I would start with that process first. And then if you have to move down, then you move down and say, okay, I'll do an improvement rather than a transformation. I think the second thing is, as you understand and develop AI-enabled sources, really think about the data. And this is what I come back to. Your AI is only gonna be as good and as clean and as accurate as the dataset that you point AI towards. And, and data is everything. So you have to be prepared to apply AI in a meaningful way to have not centralized data stores, but data stores that understand where other data stores exist, right? And be able to train your AI on those datasets that will have the most meaningful impact and make sure that it's trusted information because one of the biggest concerns around AI is, well, it just, it told me porkies, or it told me lies because it wasn't accurate. Well, that's just based on the data that's been fed to it. So as an organization or a company, what you think about is creating that garden fence around your cleanest data and pointing AI at that and giving results based on that data is really important. And then, as I mentioned before, take a look at your existing vendors because it's it's a lot of change for people to not just adopt AI in terms of how they do what they do today, but being able to utilize AI to the systems and the processes that people already engage with is a very quick way of getting people to adopt AI into their acumen and into their everyday use before you start throwing a lot of point solutions or niche solutions in place because I think it's a real step change that has to happen with AI. And if you think about that as being your core and making sure that you apply the security and governance area around good data, around systems that exist already or vendors that you already have relationships with, and adding on that compliance and governance layer on top of that, that will build a foundation. And I would say for my third and final point is, reinvent your talent and the ways of working. And what does that mean? That goes to your original point of how do people get on the first step of the AI ladder, right? Think about your organization, your teams, your employees, and the people that you work with. And think about from an HR perspective, and maybe it's part of that background that we talked about too, is that training and upskilling is a core component of that AI journey and making sure that you bring people along that journey is critically important. And to say, look, nobody has to be left behind. We're going to make things way better and way more efficient, but let me show you how that's going to be done.

I think this is great. Peter, before I pass you on to George to talk about your musical taste, I'd just like to say, it's been fantastic having you on because your experience as a CIO, but also as a lawyer, but as an HR person, you've given us such a rounded perspective, made me feel much more excited about the future than I was. I was a little bit worried about AI taking over my life, but actually I think it is a force for good and it's in our hands by the sound of it too, to make it work for us. So thanks so much and it's been great having you on The Company Doctor. Thanks so much.

Thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it.

I'm going to hand you on to George to talk about your musical taste.

Yeah, it's sort of after all of that really interesting stuff, it almost seems quite trite to now start talking about music, But just to echo what Gary said, that was just some really fascinating stuff in there. And yeah, I'm feeling slightly more calm about what the future holds as well. But going back to your music taste, we do have the Company Doctor playlist on Spotify. And we ask all our guests to throw in a couple of tracks. I was interested to hear about your love of The Terminator because I love the music in that. And I wondered whether that might be an ominous soundtrack to throw in there. But yes, Peter, if you've got a couple couple of songs that you'd like to add to our playlist, do feel free to let us know.

Uh, yeah, I mean, it's probably quite a— I've probably added quite an eclectic taste, and it changed over many different time spans. So as a child of the '90s, I would say sort of '90s hip-hop was pretty big in my day of what me and my mates were listening to, and then graduated towards sort of progressive rock into my late 20s and early 30s. But I guess the thing that's always stuck with me, because I had always enjoyed playing music, was jazz. So one of the songs that always got me sort of up and motivated was Duke Ellington's "Take the A Train." Great. Nice. And that always gets me pumped up listening to that track. And it's such a weird one because people think it's a bizarre one to add, but Duke Ellington, just an absolute legend. Yeah. Uh, and you know, one of the pivotal players in sort of the big band movement. Uh, and, and that's where I would start. I would say, having moved to, uh, the UK 12 years ago, there's a singer-songwriter by the name of Frank Turner, uh, that I've really, really appreciated over the years. And, uh, I find both the lyrics and the music, uh, really poignant at times, and The one song that's really stuck to me is "The Way I Tend to Be." Fantastic.

Okay, they're in there. We don't have enough jazz as well, so thank you. Thank you for that.

Yeah, thank you for that. We had the Ukrainian national anthem last time, so thanks for that.

We've had all sorts. Yeah, so yeah, eclecticism is the name of the game for that. So Peter, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been really eye-opening, so we really appreciate your time. And thank you to Gary, of course, and thank you to you all for listening.

George, Gary, thank you so much. Or even a bowl of fruit.

Thank you for listening, and a big thanks once again to Peter Young for joining us and for helping us wrap our minds around such a complex and contentious topic. If you'd like to learn more about how Optimizely provides an industry-first operating system for marketers powering every phase of the marketing lifecycle through a single AI-accelerated workflow, visit optimizely.com. And if you'd like to hear Gary and I chat through a mind-bending array of topics with a stellar roster of expert guests, visit thecompanydoctor.com. Thanks again to you all for your continued support, and we'll see you next time.