It’s Not a Ladder, It’s a Jungle Gym with President of euNetworks, Stephanie Lynch-Habib #68

After all, all art is experience. Hello, you are listening to the Company Doctor podcast, where today we're very pleased to be welcoming back our first ever returning guest, Stephanie Lynch Habib, President of EU Networks, who's talking to Gary all about the relentless rollercoaster that is the entrepreneurial journey, and why the job ladder isn't a ladder at all, it's a jungle gym. Gary, Stephanie, over to you.

Welcome back to The Company Doctor.

Thank you very much, Gary. Pleasure.

And what a great day to have you on, International Women's Day. And I was really excited to have you back. You're the first guest we've had back. That's so good. We need to do twice.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, by popular demand, obviously. But your, your role has changed, and for those that don't know you, I guess the best place to start Steph, is to introduce yourself and tell us what you do in a brief way.

Of course. Hi, Stephanie Lin-Shabib. I am the president of EU Networks. EU Networks is a digital bandwidth infrastructure company in Europe, and we do very focused fiber optic networking for targeted sets of customers, and we do it by knocking it out of the park every time across Europe.

Wow. What a great elevator pitch. That's fantastic. Thank you. And it sounds, this all sounds very clever. Um, the, the episode itself, I'm going to read it because, uh, it's going to need explaining, but it's really interesting, especially at this time of people's life. It's a Jungle Gym, Not a Ladder: How to Ride the Waves of Your Life and Career. So I guess the first question is, the episode's about riding the waves of your life and career. What do you mean by that, and why does it matter?

Well, I think anyone who has a career, a career path, an ambition, or is ambitious recognizes that they always want something more, right? There's always the next thing. I don't know what more is. More could be more fulfillment at home, right? More could be more responsibility in what I do today in my current function. More could be, I'm gonna be the CEO. But somehow you're always in, in a career trying to juggle a million different things. And I think I'm definitely not the author of this quote, but there's there's no such thing as a balance is a really, really good, like, why to, you know, answer to your question, right? Because I think you're always having to compensate one thing for another. And in doing so, whether it be your home life or your career or how you address what you love to do, your passions, your hobbies, nothing can ever stay balanced. So therefore you're kind of going across ladders and sometimes you're having a little bit of a fall and sometimes you're climbing up and yeah.

I got it now. I was going to ask you what, because I'm old, I was going to ask you what a jungle gym was because when you said ladder, I'm thinking snakes and ladders.

You go up the ladder. Can I tell the story?

Can I?

Yeah, please. You probably, and I didn't even think you would ask, right? So this is not like premeditated in any way. In American English, a jungle gym is the installation of a playground. And we had it in our house when I was born up until we moved out of the house when I was 11. And it's called a jungle gym because it has a climb across, it had a slide, it had a swing, it had a ladder, right? And when I was 8, I was a gymnast. And I always, maybe you will nod in saying I was always pushing myself, right? Pushing myself to go a little bit further. And on this particular day, it was summer day, it was hot. I, I was swinging horizontally instead of going across on the jungle gym. I was going like I was on a bar in a, you know, in a gymnastics competition. And I went so high up that I slipped and I fell on my elbow and my entire elbow crushed into thousands of pieces, right? And I wound up getting sent to the emergency room and in the hospital for most of that summer with like 2 major surgeries. And, um, Yes.

Oh, so I've opened a wound, so to speak, on it. But that makes sense now. It makes sense now. Yeah, so that's really helpful. So, so Steph, do you think, you know, with that in mind, and for people listening, because, you know, people riding the wave of their life and career is really topical at the moment because I think a lot of people are at crossroads in their lives. Do you think it's, uh, in our hands, in our control to manage that direction?

I think it has to be, right? It has to be in our control. Economic circumstances Wars, recessions, energy crises are not in our control. Working for a big multinational firm that has to say goodbye to cherished employees, you know, thousands at a time, is not in our control. But I think the way we digest, process, and move on is, or, you know, move onwards, you know, if it's laterally, upwards, or taking a pause, is in our control. And That's a bit, you know, probably a bit high level to say, but you have to take control of your mind, right? First and foremost. And in these moments, in these tough moments, who else do you count on besides yourself, right? And a few close friends or family or colleagues to help you get through it. But it really has to be your will and your want to what goes forward.

Yeah, and you know, I absolutely agree with that because I'm always a believer in you control your own path. Doesn't mean it's easy, but if you don't control it, as you're saying, then who else does? And you talked about it's a mindset. What mindset should someone have then that would help them? What kind of mindset do I need in order to have that kind of—

Oh, you probably couldn't— I think you will answer this question better than I, but you're asking me.

I am. You're my guest.

Because I think you're a good dispenser of advice when it comes to matters like these. That's why I say that.

But think about yourself. What is your mindset? Because you're, you're, I've known you for a long time. You're, you know, you said it earlier, you're a driven, make it happen kind of person, right?

In my own, in my own mind, you have to be in a, well, definitely in terms of you're in control of what happens next. You also have to have determination, right? To, to, to decide what it is you want to do, right? If you're at a crossroads of some sort, right? Or if you're, if you were put in a, you know, you unwillingly or unknowingly were put in a difficult situation. Then what are you doing about getting, pulling yourself up and moving on, right? And that's like nice advice to give. It's harder to practice when we're not maybe in a healthy mindset or we're having troubles at work. But I do believe that like perseverance, determination in our work has to be part of, you know, the solution and what's next in anybody's, you know, they say like right in a sales cycle, it's really easy when you're on a high and you're winning tons of deals to keep winning on a high. But talk to somebody that's been on a losing streak, right? A good, good sales leader, a person that's— I mean, I've been in situations and periods like that. It's really hard to pick yourself up out of that. And I think it really is determination, hard work, perseverance.

Yeah, no, it's interesting. On the last few episodes, George and I have been talking about growth mindset and a lot of sport. You're watching tennis at the moment at Indian Wells and a lot of the tennis players, when they're failing or they're behind by set, They're thinking about, what can I do differently next time? How can I improve what I'm doing? I think that's what you're saying. So it makes sense. With that in mind, Steph, and put you on the spot a bit, could you give us an example of something that propelled you up the ladder in whatever direction? Maybe I had to go sideways to go up. And then maybe an opposite example of when you slid down the snake, to use a snake and ladder as an example.

Yeah, for sure. When I, uh, first got my, my, well, I, I probably have two examples. Uh, but I'm trying to think which is the better one to tell. Uh, very quickly, when I first got my promotion to be a vice president of sales and had my own region, and I was running, you know, hundreds of millions in revenue from an A and a B perspective, I went up there never having sold with the bag in my hand, right? Like, so never having actually, you know, been a sales quota-bearing headcount, but I was the sales VP because I was determined and motivated and persevered. So number one, very hard to get credibility around a team of seasoned sellers, right? Now that they have a woman sales VP who, by the way, never sold and they knew it, right? So that was a sort of like a, that's definitely a climb up the ladder, right? And with probably the most fear that I've ever had stepping into any role. And I've stepped into other bigger roles since with fear, right? But this was definitely like, this one took me down. It burned me out actually after a couple of years, right? So I mean, it's a real personal example of climbing quickly and then pulling your string, all strings so far that you actually have to take a pretty significant time out to relook at and to get fit to come back, right? And when I came back, I was able to get right back in there. And ever since, I mean, I could give another examples of chutes and ladders, right? But that's definitely the most significant one and the most honest one that I can tell you.

Yeah, no, I think it's a great one. I wouldn't mind unpacking that a bit because I've seen you through that career and You've had an amazing career. You know, for people that don't know Steph, you need to look Steph up because she's a great role model for, particularly for women in business. But with that in mind, if you look back on that, would you, would you have done something differently? And what is that kind of balance? Because how do you balance— I know you've got, you know, family is really important to you. Now you live, you live outside the UK, you live in France, and you, you know, you travel a lot to the UK. How do you balance work and family life? And what learning points did you make from what happened to you before? Would you do anything differently?

Yeah. I don't think it, I'll go back to it's never a balance, right? And I mean, there's two ways to answer that, right? I could say, go back and do it again. Maybe I would've had four kids and not, you know, continued on the career path, right? That, I mean, that's like one reflection sometimes that I have and not very rarely, right?

But it's like sliding doors, isn't it?

If I got on that train versus that train instead of the two beautiful, you know, you know, young men, you know, in my life, my sons in my life. Maybe I would've had 4 and, you know, been walking around the parks in Paris, you know, and, you know, and shopping. But I don't think that would've happened. You know, no one—

I don't think that would've suited you. Yeah.

What would I have done differently? And perhaps maybe how I still can do differently, right? It's drawing that fine line between letting certain— you asked like, you know, how, how do you get the mindset for a challenge? Some things you have to just let go and leave behind, right? Not everything is personal towards you. Not everything is your fault. People are always going to not do exactly as you would like them to do when you're high, you know, high expectation, demanding. And sometimes people are going to disappoint you, right? So you have to put that behind. I think that's a big lesson. But in terms of the balance, like, When I look at the boys, thank— I think very thankfully, you know, they're happy, they're smart, they're flourishing, and they love their working mom, right?

They're— Yeah, because you're a role model. You're a role model for them.

And when they need, you know, hey mom, could you send a little something on the Revolut today? Like, I don't know if you spent your allowance this week, but you know, I can do that for them. And they know that I am that role model in the house, right? And they know that that's the contribution to their lifestyle as well as is a factor of the career path that I've been lucky to have.

Yeah, no, absolutely. So then with that in mind, we haven't talked about coming down the snake. Is there an example of something where you came down the— do you know what I mean by that? Came down the snake. I'm thinking snakes and ladders. I'm trying to make it topical.

The chute, right?

Like a chute. The chute, sorry.

I think the first example is definitely WIDE. I think another one I was privileged to be the CMO of two companies, well, three companies, right? And I've got marketing in, in, in, in a new network. So, you know, four companies for that matter. But one company is a huge marketing company, right? I mean, what they do, their bread and butter is marketing and using their intellectual property, right? To better, you know, part of the industry that we work in. And whilst the pandemic arrived and most of the telco and infrastructure business were like, they would say in French, selling like des petits pains, like little loaves of bread, right? You know, infrastructure and the demand was, you know, really, really pumped. This company had to deal with a massive, massive blow to their major source of income, and it was a chute, snake for sure, right? And I had just arrived a few months before. And, you know, it's really fair to say that as a leadership team, we had to work at recovering, right, something fundamentally that fell. And I was happy to be able— like, I mean, I wasn't happy to be in the circumstance at that time in the first lockdown, et cetera, right, in the pandemic. But if you look back today, that organization is back buzzing and flourishing and resilient.

I remember the time. I mean, it could have been really devastating, you know, amazing turnaround.

And that's thanks to the resilience of the leadership team, to the people in that organization, and to the importance that their, you know, contribution to the sector, how important it is to everyone.

Okay, so let's join the dots then, because, you know, this is really helpful stuff for people listening, you know, if they're going to want to ride the waves of their career. Their life, there's ups and downs, right? And sometimes sideways, according to your description. What advice would you give someone that would help them, bearing in mind things are not— things aren't always great? I think that's the point you're saying. You know, sometimes you learn from things that are bad and you grow, and you know, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, I guess. What advice would you give someone? Because they still want to ride the wave, and it's not going to be easy.

I would say if you're on an up, don't take it for granted, right? 'cause it always can come down again. What I mean by that is like, keep your ego in check. It's not to not have confidence that you can't continue to climb, but don't pre— I always think like, you know, I was a waitress when I was in college because I thought that it would be good to have a skill of what waitressing would be like if ever my corporate job didn't work out. Because that's the way I think. I think nobody's better than any, you know, we all have to do what we have to do to get by. So You know, maybe you're CEO today, it doesn't all work out all the time for everyone. And, and being prepared for that could be helpful without thinking negatively, like something's going to go wrong.

No, I get it. It's like, you know, in project world, it would be a mitigation plan. You've got a plan B if you need it.

Yeah. Yeah. I would also say that, you know, on your way up, you know, if you're, you know, kind of traversing or you're on your path to going up, you can be as smart and ambitious and persevere, but Be that person that will do anything to help out anyone. And that might be a task that you, oh, according to my level or my, you know, that I would never like, be the person that helps, you know, get the job done. It might not be the most glamorous job. It might not be, but does it help you, your team, your company, you know, your family? You know, be that person because I think that helps you pave the path for having, you know, a very humane, leadership or direction or management of team, like, you're willing to do the hard work as well, not just directing the hard work.

That's good advice. And how important are things like, you know, building relationships with people at different levels along the way? Because, you know, when you're driving hard, it's sometimes probably hard to focus on building relationships. How important is it?

I think extremely important. And I think that there's a— it's a good question. There's such a distinction between driving hard, driving far, aiming high, and caring for your organization, right? Because they don't seem interrelated, right? Oh, she's constantly pushing. She's telling you how to change. She's telling you to get better. She's telling you to put the best people around you, yet she really cares, right? I mean, and you spend the time building And I think, you know, taking feedback from the people that are doing the work every single day when you can, I'm not saying it's always possible. Sometimes you're, you know, I'm sweeping in and out and, you know, spending time with people that, you know, the contributors of the organization are, is extremely important. And being transparent and being genuine, well, according, that's my advice. Maybe it's not good advice to Isha.

No, no, your advice is good advice. But, but I, but I do see that because I, I see a lot of people that drive— I'm a driven person, but I see a lot of people are driven, and sometimes it alienates people because they either think, well, what are they on? Or, you know, I don't want to be driven like them, or they don't seem to be slowing down, they just kind of get rocket going through everybody. I don't know, what, what's your advice around that? You know, does it repel people when people are driven?

Yeah, I think it does, right, in a sense. And I think, and it takes all sorts to make a team happen, right? It takes somebody driven to try to drive, you know, a balance between skill sets and motivation levels because there are some instances where you might have an individual on a team or that's not super driven to be super successful, but is a steady hand, right? Steadily delivers, steadily cares. That doesn't necessarily mean driven, And I think it can repel, but I think you have to, you have to strike a balance between, between everyone.

Yeah, because, you know, riding the wave of your career doesn't necessarily mean you want to get promoted. I mean, I'll give you an example. My daughter always talks about, you know, she, she's a designer, she loves her job, and she sat, you know, she says she has to sacrifice money for enjoyment. So what's your view for people that are very ambitious? What's more important, career success or enjoying what you do in your job? Not for you personally, but I'm just thinking about people listening, you know, what, what should be more important?

I never aimed for the title or the level. It happened, right? It happened because I was enjoying a new challenge every time, and every challenge brought me to an, to a new function or a new level, right? So definitely pursuing what you love. With privilege comes responsibility, right? And, and that I would definitely caution out people that are thinking about that because Going back to your question, how do you balance, right? As a leader, you take on a job at an international company, right? Living in a different country, I'm signing up for something, right? So, you have to be responsible for that. So, that should, I would definitely say, be cautious.

And Stephanie, in your career, have you come across, and I'm just thinking right the way back, you've had an amazing career, have you come across someone that stood out for you who's just really good at riding the waves of their career? I don't necessarily mean they're really super senior, it may be, but just they've kind of done what they wanted and they've made it happen and been nice along the way, I guess. You don't have to mention names.

I have, uh, 2 or 3 nàxiànzi who are all in different places in their careers and their lives, all of whom help mentor me up and help, help me with the, the climb and the ladder, like you have, by the way, as well, right? So you're, you're what, you're one of them. So That's not a very good descriptor, right? Shall I, shall I dive in on—

Yeah, I'm just interested to know what— give me an idea of a person that, you know, stood out for you and maybe, you know, you tried to sort of follow their way of working. Because if we can— for people listening, if we can help them ride the waves of their career, I think a lot of people confuse career success with being senior rather than just doing something they enjoy and progressing. Again, I'm putting you on the spot.

I'll say Andrew Edison in Who for me, you know, former boss, former colleague, I mean, we did the ladder, right? I then, you know, reported to him, then we did the ladder again. The reason I say that is I think he's one of the most measured, like hardworking and content people that I know, right? I mean, in terms of, he's ridden his career in such a lovely way and at this moment is enjoying some of his really hard work, right? Many, many years of hard work. He's just, he's a kind man, and he just, for the very long period of time that I've known him, he's generally happy in every phase of whatever he's done. And that's why I'm answering the question with his name.

Yeah, no, it's good, and I agree. I mean, he's a really nice guy, and I think he's had an amazing career, but he's been nice with it, which doesn't always go together, what you're saying.

That's right, that's right.

Okay, let's switch gears a little bit because we've only got a couple more questions before we're gonna get back to your musical taste because you've been on before. Lots of people will relate to what you're saying, and some of it sounds easier than, than it probably is. Thinking about, you know, again, back to your career and some things you've done and things you know now, what 3 tips would you give someone to ride the waves of their career? If you could only give them 3, what would they be?

Be kind to yourself and to the others around you. Be determined. And I'll use a quote from the commencement address of my bachelor's graduation from Rutgers in 1996. I think it was the CEO of PepsiCo at the time who said that we were in an all-women's, two degrees, one was an all-women's college of Rutgers University. And he said, "Ladies," Don't let the bastards get you down.

Yeah, that's great. I, I have a phrase: don't tell people— don't let people get your goat, just don't tell them where it's tied.

That's really cool.

I've got two, I've got two more questions for you, Steph, and then we're gonna get some music. This is a question I like to ask. Looking back, let's reflect back on your career, and if you had the chance to go again, would you have done anything differently? And if so, what would it be?

I would have been a little bit more patient in a couple of circumstances where I, you know, where, where I was looking on the climb, right? A little bit more due diligence.

Cool. That's good. That's a good reflection.

I think you helped me with that. I think you definitely helped me with that reflection, you know, at one point we were chatting, so I'm not going to take full credit for it now.

You can have it. Okay. It's International Women's Day. We've got Steph, who is a— you are an absolute role model, by the way. You know, exact sponsor for Girl Up, United Nations Foundation. You were the 20 Women to Watch in Telco Capacity Magazine. I know I've been involved in lots of things with you to help women in tech. So here's my question. With your experience, for people listening, what's your advice for aspiring women trying to accelerate their careers based on your own experience?

Support each other and pay it forward. I'm a big one. I'm of the reflection right now, maybe, you know, I don't have as many, you know, I'm not aspiring anymore. I'm more maturing into my career. But I think the biggest thing that we can do as women is leave just a little bit behind so that the next, you know, so the next person can come and take something that you've learned or something that was hard for you and bring it to the next person. And that, yeah, that's what I would say.

Wow, that's great. So inspirational. A great way to finish. Thanks, Steph. I love that. Okay, well, let's, um, before, you know, before we finish, and I'll say thank you at the end, let's, let's go to your musical taste. Second time on, if the playlist is growing— last time we had some great choices— what are, what's Steph's musical choice that we can add to the playlist?

Well, it's International Women's Day, right? So if I were up— I'm getting ready to go on, uh, on a holiday with my, with my very best friend since we're 12 years old, right? So I'm a little bit in a more of an upbeat down, so maybe, uh It's International Women's Day, so maybe I Will Survive, you know, if we're talking about a dance song. A little Donna Summer, maybe. Yes, we're going to the Caribbean, so a little bit of Bob Marley would be good as well.

You got to see the movie, that's brilliant. So any particular song choice?

Last Dance, Donna Summer.

Nice, we'll put that on. That's fantastic. Look, Steph, thank you so much. You, you're a real inspiration, not only, uh, you know, for— it's International Women's Day, for other women aspiring, but Just generally, you know, I've known you for a long time. You're a make-it-happen, driven, capable person. You know, people know that if they have you in there, they're fortunate enough to have you in their team, that things are going to happen. So thanks for coming on.

Thank you for having me. It's just, uh, it's so much fun. I've been looking forward to it since you've written to me about it. Thank you very much.

Pleasure. Thanks for coming on, and we'll see you again soon.

See you soon, Gary.

Thanks for joining us and a big thank you to Stephanie for returning to the show and for once again being a brilliant guest. If you've enjoyed this episode and want to hear more of Stephanie, you're in luck because over on thecompanydoctor.com, you'll find the episode that she did with us back in February 2022 in the episode section, where you'll also find nearly 70 other fantastic episodes to make your way through. Thanks for listening and see you next time.