Mentoring for Moving the Dial with Andy Lopata #85

After all, all art is experience. Hello and welcome to The Company Doctor, where today we're welcoming back our first ever guest, Andy Lopata, who first joined us back in October 2021 to give us his expert insights on networking. Today, close to 100 episodes on, a few books published, and 3 years wiser, we're thrilled to have Andy, who recently co-authored and released the Financial Times Guide to Mentoring: A Complete Guide to Effective Mentoring, back on the show to talk to us all about, you guessed it, mentoring. Andy, welcome back, and Gary, over to you. Please don't think me presumptuous if I give you—

Hello, Andy, welcome back to the Company Doctor podcast.

Hey, is this my hat trick?

It is actually your hat trick, but more importantly, you were our very first guest, so thank you so much for coming back 3 times.

A pleasure. Do I get to keep it now?

Yes, it's yours. You're welcome to it. But, uh, we're really excited to have you on because we're going to be talking about mentoring. And, you know, you, with your recent book, which we're going to talk about, there's some really good golden nuggets in there. So the title for today is Mentoring for Moving the Dial. But I thought what would be good, Andy, is just, uh, for those of you that haven't heard of you, and who would they be anyway, a quick intro to yourself and what you do.

Well, I think that's probably more people than you, you give credit for. Yes, quick intro. I've been working in the field of networking and professional relationships for coming up to 26 years now. Uh, written 6 books on the topic. You've just mentioned my most recent one, The Financial Times Guide to Mentoring. I present my own podcast, The Connected Leadership Podcast, and I've written for publications just in the last year like Fast Company, Harvard Business Review. I have a monthly blog called Connected Leadership on psychologytoday.com as well. And then there's my day job where I, I speak and I train and I mentor on all things to to do with professional relationship strategy.

That's incredible. What'd you do in your spare time, Andy?

Uh, I go to watch Charlton for my sins. I go to other sports events. I go to a lot of gigs. I go to the theater. I read a lot. I, I, yeah, I get about an hour's sleep a night, I think.

Yeah, well, listen, therefore, very much so appreciate you coming on in the, in the little gaps they had there. I was really interested in, in talking to you about mentoring. I was reading the book, and I must admit It was a massive wake-up for me because I spent a lot of my professional life, you know, doing training, but a lot of coaching, and I'm probably a bit of a coaching geek and not doing enough mentoring. And it gave me a bit of a slap, actually. So I thought we would start with asking you, what the hell is mentoring and why does it matter?

Mentoring, put very simply, is the process of someone guiding another person through their career or their business or their role journey, using the benefit of their— that mentor's experience or expertise to help them. It's not telling them what to do, and it's not coaching where that person doesn't necessarily have to have the experience or the expertise but ask the right questions. But it's a combination of the two where they will stand back and guide rather than jump in and tell, but they will have the benefit of their own experience to, to call on. Why is it so important? Because nobody does it on their own, and why would you want to recreate mistakes that other people have already learned from? Why not benefit from the people who have made the journey before, before you? And also, we can get so lost in the day-to-day of what we do that it's hard to stand back and get a three-dimensional perspective of the challenge and the possible solutions. We're too close to it sometimes. So having someone as a sounding board can be invaluable.

And it all makes sense. And actually, if you look at the stats, and we're talking about them later, and you've got them in your book, you know, it's a bit like, well, why wouldn't you do it? But then it looks like, according to your stats, only 37% of people actually have a mentor. So what's going on? Why don't people do it more?

Well, I think there's a number of reasons. I think the primary one is that most people, if they're working for, for an organization any formal mentoring programs that are available in that organization, if they are even operated well and publicized, are for a select few. So therefore, the people who are on a fast-track program or identified as future board members or whatever it may be— maybe it's, it's organized by an ERG, an employee resource group, like a women's network or an LGBTQ+ network So, it's for a particular population within the organisation, and it's not available across the board. And we're not getting the message out there that you can seek your own mentor and seek that support for yourself. So, it's not sewn into the DNA of our organisational and business culture in the UK or in other countries as well. And until it is part of the cultural DNA, it's not going to be as commonplace as it should be.

And as you're talking it through, I'm thinking, well, so is it rude to ask then if I want to be mentored, not being mentored?

It's not rude to ask. It's interesting, I co-authored the book with Dr. Ruth Gotian from Weill Cornell Medical School, and Ruth and I were pretty much in agreement along the line on almost everything in the book. There were maybe 2 or 3 areas that we had disagreements on that's reflected in the book. We leave it to the reader to decide. One of those areas is, can you ask somebody to be your mentor? Ruth is adamant, absolutely not. And I understand where she's coming from, and some other people that I know whose opinions I respect a lot. But, but you know what, I have asked people to be my mentor, and I've been asked. I have been turned down, and I've, I've had people accept. I have turned people down, and I've accepted. So it's It's a big ask, and going up to a complete stranger and saying, 'Will you mentor me?' I mean, it has worked with someone asking me, but it's not ideal. You need to develop the relationship first. But mentoring doesn't always have to be a formal relationship. And in fact, that's another thing where Ruth doesn't— isn't a big advocate of that. I am. But we both agree you should have a mentoring team with lots of informal mentoring relationships. And why not start by asking for advice?

Yeah, if you don't ask, you don't get, right?

Yeah, but, but I think the key point here is rather than saying, will you be my mentor, ask, can I just ask your opinion on something? Get that opinion and build the relationship from there until it becomes natural that that person moves into that mentoring role for you.

Yeah, that's a good one because I think people like to be asked for advice and, you know, you'll see by their reaction, I suppose. And as I was reading the book and You talked about the difference between informal and formal mentoring.

Yeah.

What's the difference, and are they both important? Should I do both?

Yes. The formal mentoring is where somebody agrees to be your mentor, and you have a regular meeting. They hold you accountable. That's why I think it's such a good thing to have. It's that space where you step away from your day-to-day, however busy you are, and take that 360-degree view that I was talking about. Informal mentoring, and I have a number of informal mentors, and they wouldn't call themselves my, my mentor, but they are people who have expertise in different areas, and if I want some advice, I will turn to them for that advice. So I know that if I want advice on working with a particular organisation, or advice on working in a particular country, then there are certain people I'll talk to. I have a good friend of mine who, whenever I write a new keynote talk, I run it past him for his insights before I let it loose on the public. So he is an informal mentor in that we don't have a regular arrangement, but he's more than happy to give me his time when I need it.

Okay, so I like the mix. And then I've got to deal with this thing about coaching, because it poked me in the eye when I read the book. Reading your book, it got me thinking about, I probably spend most of my time talking about coaching. But I am a coach, so I guess I would do. And I know it's covered in the book, but what— can you explain the difference? I know you cover it, but explain to the listener what is the difference between mentoring and coaching. And then I've got a follow-on question that's niggling me quite a bit.

It's actually a really interesting question on so many levels because I've always had my definition of the difference between mentoring and coaching, which I'll share with you in a moment. But I just want to preface that by saying that we have recorded 2 series so far of videos with— one of the series with, with Olympians and Paralympians, very high achievers, and the other was with thought leaders at a top level and senior leaders in business. We've got a third one where we've started to get some recordings come in, and one of the questions we ask all of them is, what's the difference between coaching and mentoring? And we get a different answer from everyone, and no one's wrong. Uh, so I just want to preface my definition with that and then caveat it further afterwards. So my definition, and I touched on it earlier, is that a mentor uses their expertise and experience to help guide you. So they will be sharing with you their own perspective based on their journey. A coach does not need any of that experience, any of that expertise. They are trained in asking the right questions. So they're holding your hand through the journey, but they don't necessarily know the way for themselves. They're just helping you work out which the right turns are to find it and support you through that process. Now, my additional caveat to that is that a great mentor coaches. So I really believe that when I'm mentoring someone, I'm a fixer. If they tell me their problem and I think I know the answer, I want to go, I know, I know. And I'm sure I'm not alone in that. There are a lot of us out out there. And as a mentor, that almost gives me carte blanche to do that. But not if I want to be a good mentor. I need to bite my lip, and I need to stop and ask questions and listen and try and guide my mentee to the same conclusion. Then at some point in that conversation, I might say, 'You might want to consider this,' or, 'This is what worked for me.' And you notice the difference between 'you might want to consider this,' 'this is what worked for me,' and 'you need to do this.' because your mentee is not you. The people they're dealing with are not necessarily the same as the people you dealt with. The context may not be the same. So just telling them, this worked for me, it will work for you, is doing them a disservice. So a great coach listens, and a mentor needs to be able to do that as well.

Okay, well, this— here's my niggle. I don't know if niggle is the right word, but you've got— in your book, you've got a diagram of the kind of the each— the polarized end of coaching and mentoring. So should we treat them separate, or should we sometimes blend them?

Well, I, I think that goes back to my answer, and that is it is a blend. So mentoring will involve all these different roles and different stages. Um, so you've got a pure definition of mentoring. A pure definition of mentoring is someone with that expertise and experience who is telling you, uh, what to do.. But as I've already outlined, that's not perfect mentoring.

I'm just thinking in the same meeting though, Andy. So if I'm doing a session and I do, I can lean more towards mentoring than coaching, and if it made sense.

Yeah, absolutely. Uh, we interview Francesca Lagerberg in the book, and Francesca is the CEO of Baker Tilly International, so very well-known accountancy practice. And Francesca is both a qualified coach and she's a mentor, and she explains how she will, uh, she will decide which route she takes, decide depending on the context and the person that she's, she's working with.

Great advice. And what's your advice for getting started as a, a, um, is it called a mentee? Someone's being mentored?

Yeah, someone being mentored. Mentee.

Yeah, as a mentee and be as a mentor, what's your— if I want to get started, what would you, what would you say the advice would be?

Okay, my advice to the mentee is understand what you want to achieve, uh, and really focus what success will look like for you and what you need to, uh, overcome and navigate to get there. It's not simply a question of saying, I really respect this person, I really like this person, I want to— I want them to mentor me. But it's actually understanding what you expect from them. So that you can communicate it to them directly. And then when you start the conversation, have that conversation and be really clear about it. And I guess to the mentor, it's to sit down and really understand what that mentee is trying to achieve. So it's the other side of that coin, and be very clear about what you can do to help them achieve those objectives, to achieve those goals. I think both parties need to move beyond this being a nice thing to do and be a lot more results-oriented and focused on that. You still need the small talk, you still need the relationship building and the trust in particular, but it all starts with clarity of objectives. Everything else can follow through from there.

And is there a tipping point, Andy, when you're, you're having the love-in, you're calibrating with someone, if that's the right word? To the point where you do feel you can sort of take it to the next level? Is there a tipping point in that relationship?

It's an interesting question. Um, is it— I think every relationship is different, and it goes to personality styles. So I can't say meeting number 3 in half an hour, I think, you know, some people you will just click straight away and the conversations will flow. Other times you will take a little while to warm into it and understand it. Trust is a key factor here. Some people give trust automatically and wait for it to be proven to be wrong. Others take their time for trust to be earned. And I think that's a key factor in where that tipping point will lie. So yeah, it would be on a case-by-case basis.

Okay, I thought you're going to give me the tips to how I know when someone's cooked, but I get your point.

Well, I think if you want to know where it's cooked, it's when both parties are sharing without their ego getting in the way. Okay. When the mentee isn't holding back and they're really honest about what their challenges are, even if it makes them look bad. And when the mentor is saying, I don't know, but I can help you find out. Or actually, you know what, I got this really badly wrong, here's what I learned. Uh, when the two parties stop trying to impress each other and really focus on getting the most out of the conversation.

That's a good tip. And top tips for mentoring, what are the key things that make the biggest difference as a mentor?

As a mentor, well, what I just said, I'd start with that, is your ego. Leaving your ego at the door and being willing to share your challenges, being willing to create a psychologically safe environment, and that means making yourself open and vulnerable as much as expecting your mentee to be. Shutting up. I talked about listening earlier, not being that fixer who wants to jump in every 5 minutes and not wanting to lecture and impress, but just sitting back and listening and allowing the conversation to flow, even if you feel you've got the solution straight away. Sometimes your mentee will, will still want to get what's on their mind off their chest. If you can do that, that might be mixing, mixing metaphors a little bit too much there, and biologically impossible, but I think you get the, the point. So sometimes it's as much about the ability to vent for them, and if you stop them from doing that, then they're not going to go away with what they need from the conversation. So I think you have to bear that in mind as well.

And Andy, do you think sometimes a mentor can seep into being a bit of a dictator then? And if so, how do you avoid that?

Yeah, Ruth has this wonderful phrase, when your mentor becomes your tormentor. Right. And, um, yeah, of course, I think that from the mentee's perspective, you need to be able to be open and honest with your mentor and say, actually, can we change the rules of engagement a little bit? This is what would work for me. And you need that trusted relationship to be able to have that open conversation. For the mentor, check in with your mentee. I have a mentoring supervisor, which I think I'd never thought of at the point I wrote the book. It's not in the book, this has come since, right? Um, I'd never thought of it. It's credit to the Association of Business Mentors who include it as an essential part of becoming a fellow. And my mentoring supervisor, Kathy, at the beginning of every session will check in with me and she will ask me to score 3 things out of 10. Where's my energy at today? Uh, so whereas 1 is I'm flat on the floor and 10 I'm bouncing up and down, how, how strong and tough can she be with me during that call? And how much support I need. And that's a really good example of just checking in where your mentee is before you proceed. And, and there's nothing to stop you checking in during the conversation. How is this landing for you? Am I serving you in the way you need me to? And that's the humility again that I was talking about.

I like that. That's a really good idea as well. And do you think, should I just, yeah, if I'm running a team and people listening, a lot of managers on the call, should I mentor everyone in my team or get someone to?

Well, you shouldn't be the mentor for anyone on your team. You can be a mentor in an informal way, but I feel really strongly that a mentor should not, we should be able to be objective. And if someone's on your team, you can't be objective. And if they've got a problem with their line manager and it's you, how are they going to bring that to their mentor if that's also— Right, interesting. Should you find a mentor for everyone on your team? Arguably, yes. Arguably, you should encourage them to find a mentor for themselves and you help them with the process. Because if you find the mentor for them, then that's your person. Again, you've got that objectivity issue.

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The thing that you mentioned earlier about me being— whether it's rude to ask, I'm still a bit of a contrary about it because if I want to get mentored, you know, I could hang around a bit and be awkward. But what can I do to get help with my career, and what's the best way to drive it without being annoying?

Well, I, I, if you ask people really clear and specific questions that are easy for them to answer, particularly if you've already got a bit of a relationship with them and you're respectful of their time and you show gratitude and appreciation and give them feedback, I don't think that you should be annoying or you would be annoying. So it's about respect for other people, but also assertiveness on your own behalf. So the best way of doing it is simply asking, and, and you need to be able to do it. You know, my previous book was called Just Ask: Why Seeking Support Is Your Greatest Strength, uh, and we need to be able to do it. So it's about doing so in a way that is assertive and yet respectful.

Okay. And do people need to be trained to be a mentor?

They're not trained to be a mentor typically. Ideally they would be. And let me give you a really simple example of why. I think we make an assumption We typically think of mentoring in what we call in the book the traditional hierarchical model. That is, a junior person approaches a senior person to mentor them. It doesn't always have to be that, that way. But if we take that traditional hierarchical model, the people we approach to be mentors are typically senior and accomplished and have achieved something in their career. Therefore, we naturally, subconsciously assume they know how to mentor. But that's not necessarily what they've achieved. Therefore, surely they need some help and support with mentoring effectively. I was mentoring someone a few years ago, just before the pandemic, and my style is to, to press, you know. It comes from a place of love and support, but I will challenge. And I wasn't challenging particularly hard, but she had a panic attack and I didn't know what to do. But once she was okay again, she explained to me she'd recently been diagnosed as autistic. And one of her responses to be being pressured or challenged was to have a panic attack. So what we've included in the book as an example is a guide on how to support a neurodivergent that you're mentoring and how to recognize neurodivergence in your mentees. That's an example of training that, that would be essential if you've never come across that situation before and you need to know how to address it. So yeah, absolutely.

Well, there's lots of courses on how to coach, and so mentoring, you know, feels like it should have the same focus.

And there are— I mentioned the Association of Business Mentors. I was privileged to, to be the, the key keynote speaker and, and give out, uh, diplomas at their graduation ceremony because through the ILM they give out degree-level and master's-level mentoring qualifications. And I think that's phenomenal, and I think we should see more of that.

And how long does that take to get one of those?

I believe it's in 12 months.

Right, okay. So it's something people should consider if they're sort of serious about it. And Andy, from your experience, I'm going to give you a question around snakes and ladders. What are the pitfalls, i.e., the snakes, versus the ladders on mentoring? Using that as an example of things to look out for.

Yeah, I think in terms of the pitfalls, a lack of momentum, a lack of commitment, where it, you know, again, it goes back always to the lack of clarity and objectives and communication of them. So my number one pitfall is if you don't have clarity around that, it becomes a nice thing to do, people get busy, you lose momentum, and it just drifts and disappears. So I would say that's probably the number one pitfall. The other pitfall that's related to that is not not reviewing your objectives and making sure you're on track, or recognizing when you need to change track and adapting the conversation to acknowledge that. So those are two key pitfalls. In terms of the, the ladders, well, exactly, that is a career ladder. And, you know, not only would a mentor, particularly one from within your own organization, not only will they give you invaluable advice that will help you progress, but Hopefully they'll become your sponsor as well. They will become your advocate, talking about you for the right positions. They will open up their contacts to you and make key connections. So your mentor can be more than a guide, but they can be opening doors for you as well along the way.

Okay, well, I need to ask you this question because you are the networking expert. What— is there any linkage between what you just explained, mentoring and networking?

It's why I teach mentoring, because it's a core part of professional relationship strategy. I avoid using the word networking now because so many people perceive it as being about networking events or platforms like LinkedIn. Networking— I now use the term professional relationships— is about the relationships between people and how we can build, nurture, and leverage relationships to help us achieve our objectives. And mentors are among those relationships that we can build, nurture, and leverage to get us to the next stage.

So, see, the master in action.

It's a fundamental, it's a fundamental link. Think, because mentoring is a core part of any professional relationship strategy.

Brilliant, brilliant. Okay, now, you know, this is kind of one of the questions I ask quite a lot, but knowing what you know now, if you could go back to your younger self— because I think it's kind of interesting to be able to— if you get back in a time machine, what would you do differently, you know, related to mentoring?

Well, if I think back to when I worked for other people many, many little years ago, And I was in my— particularly when I was in my early 20s, straight after university, believe it or not, as a professional relationships person, I didn't actually build the best relationships in the workplace. I built some really strong ones, but I also made myself very unpopular because I'm an opinionated sod and I would quickly question everything that was going on, despite everyone there having been in the job longer than I'd been alive at that stage. And, and I think a mentor to help me understand how I was perceived at that point in my career would have been invaluable. It was only when I was about 29 or 30 and I was working with my father and he pulled me aside, and I thought everyone loved me and I was impressing everyone, and he pulled me aside and he said, you're rubbing people up the wrong way. You're 29, 30 years old, you're telling senior partner in a, in a top law firm what to do. And he said, you've got to stop it because you're losing people. And I had, I'd been oblivious to it, so I needed that external perspective to help me. So yeah, having a mentor at that stage of my career, even earlier, would have been invaluable.

Yeah, I think it's great advice. Okay, we're just, we're going to get to a musical taste again because we've done it before, but just before we do, give us 3 quick-fire bits of advice for a mentor and for mentee.

Okay, beyond what I've already shared, so for the mentor, don't just be there for your mentee when the date's in the diary. Know when they've got a meeting that's important to them and check in with them, see how it's gone. Allow them to contact you outside those allotted times and get back to them, particularly if it's important. Use, use things, asynchronous tools like WhatsApp email so they can reach out to you at all times. So that would be number 1 for them. The second one for a mentor is to avoid distractions. So you close your laptop if you are in the room with them, turn off your email if you're doing it virtually, turn your phone off, and make sure that you give that person 100% of your attention. When they're with you. And then the third one, I want to go back to something that I touched on a few minutes ago, and that is if you don't know the answer, find someone who does. You don't have to be the font of all wisdom. So be the connector for your mentee, open doors for them as well as showing them how to open doors for themselves. So that's 3 for the mentor, then 3 for the mentee. Uh, number 1 is be really open and honest with your mentor about how you want to be mentored and what works for you, how you like to receive criticism, how you respond to it. Be open if you feel you're—

I hate using the word feeling triggered, um, but I'm going to use it anyway.

Yeah, well, for want of a better phrase off the top of my head, but if you're uncomfortable, um, tell them. You know, I've asked people in advance, are you okay with direct feedback? They've told me yes, and then I've seen a LinkedIn post saying someone gave me direct feedback the other day, it's taken me a while to get over it, and now I can get it. And I'd rather they had been honest with me at the time So, so I think being open and honest with your mentor in all things is really important. The second is to be, be really clear if the relationship isn't working for you, and don't, don't stick around in a mentoring relationship that's not working because you're too, too nice to end it, but actually address it with your mentor, explore why it's not working and whether they are the right person for you at that point. It may well be that they were, but they're not anymore. And the third is show appreciation. Make your mentor feel good about mentoring you. And I think it's another really important point, and you can take this either way, for the mentor or for the mentee. But as we talk about tips for the mentee, we'll go there. Your mentor may give you advice, but you're not under any obligation to follow it. Absolutely. It's your life, it's your career, it's your role, and it's your— on your shoulders the responsibility lies. But acknowledge Accept the, the feedback, weigh it up, and give them your response so that they know you've taken it seriously.

Amazing, Andy, amazing. So we're going to go to your musical taste, but before I do, thank you so much for coming on. It's been really inspiring, and you've certainly woken me up in, uh, to focus more on mentoring hair big time. So thanks so much for that.

It's a great pleasure.

Um, what is your musical taste, Andy? So basically, as you know, we have a playlist for music that our guests find inspiring or important to them. I know you're a music fan, so what have you got for us?

Well, um, we did do this before, and, um, I think if I remember rightly, one of my choices might have been the Sex Pistols. It was, uh, yeah, I can't remember what the other one was. I, I have very eclectic, uh, taste, but punk is, is, uh, one of the main things I love, and I, I go to concerts constantly. I think just before recording this, I went to 7 concerts in 6 weeks, and it's a particularly fertile run. I'm pretty tired at the moment, so I, I could pick— I think it's 2 songs you want, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. I could pick from a whole range of, of music, from punk to ska to reggae to, to goth to, uh, the Rat Pack, uh, whatever it might be. But I want to— I'm going to go to that run of gigs. I've seen so many fantastic acts most of them older than me. So I saw Squeeze at the Royal Albert Hall last week, and they're one of my favorite bands of all time that I've seen many times. I'm trying to think of all the different ones I've seen in the last few weeks. There's been so many, they all blend together. The The, which was absolutely phenomenal. But I've picked two of the gigs for a particular reason. So I picked a song from two new albums. These aren't necessarily two of my favorite songs of all time, but they just represent this passion of mine for live music. The fact that some great albums have come out this year, I would add that there's Insoulement to this as well, and I'm so tempted to throw in a song from there that's just sprung to mind. I'm just going to throw it in anyway because I'm trying to grab a third, because the title is one of my favorite song titles of all time. Uh, if I get it right, it's Sometimes I Drink Coffee by the Grave of William Blake, which I think is a brilliant song title and it's a superb song. It's from their new album Insoulement. But actually, the reason I'm picking these two is because I go to so many concerts and I was talking to people about these gigs and they're both absolute 10 out of 10s, perfection. Wow. And it's so hard when I go to so many great gigs to say these are even a level above. So the first was David Gilmour, Pink Floyd, for those that aren't aware. And I'm lucky, I've seen Pink Floyd on, on a number of occasions. I've seen Roger Waters live solo before. Comfortably Numb together with Summertime by Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong, which might be my other choice. They're my two favorite songs, and I've got great memories of Comfortably Numb live in Earl's Court on my 25th birthday, and David Gilmour closed the show with, with Comfortably Numb. Now, tickets were gold dust. I was really lucky. I, uh, I have a friend through football whose two daughters, uh, are Charlie and Hattie Webb, known as the Webb Sisters. They are phenomenal singers. They were backing vocalists for Leonard Cohen. They were backing vocalists for Tom Petty. I saw them with Tom Petty in Hyde Park. And Graham emailed me or WhatsApp me a few weeks ago and said they've just been asked to back— do backing vocals for David Gilmour. Tickets were gold dust. Graham couldn't get them for me. And then on the day, I was delivering a, a 4-hour workshop, and he kept trying to phone me saying, I've got your spare, I've got your spare, someone can't make it. It. So I managed to go along, after-show party as well, which was amazing. Got to see Hattie and Charlie. Hattie was— I interviewed her for my book Just Ask and got some great stories from her. And her new album is out, which is phenomenal. Just a quick plug for her there. So the, the, the, the concert was superb. There were Pink Floyd classics like Breathe, uh, Great Gig in the Sky, which the girls did, um, Comfortably Numb, as I mentioned, Wish You Were Here, which was stunning. But the songs from the new album really stood out as well. And David Gilmour's daughter was, was part of the band, and she's recorded some songs for the new album with him, including Between Two Points. That's great. Beautiful song. Yeah, she's 21 years old, I think. She took break from university to join the tour, you know, playing Madison Square Garden and Hollywood Bowl and so on. So Between Two Points by David Gilmour and Romany Gilmour, I don't think you'll be disappointed with that. Uh, and then the other 10 out of 10 gig was The Cure. Uh, so I was so lucky. This was the golden ticket in London.

Good music.

Yeah, yeah, I've had a phenomenal year. And The Cure played an album launch show at the Troxy. Uh, so I don't— I love The Cure. The first album I ever bought, 1983, was Japanese Whispers by The Cure. And I've seen them live before, but I tend not to go because they play arenas, and I'm not a fan of arenas. They played the Troxy, which is a small venue in East London. I, I managed to get tickets. I managed to get to close to the front, and it was 2 hours and 50 minutes. The first 45 playing the new album in full, then a break, and then 2 hours of just—

I think we have to do an episode next time, Andy, of you— how you get tickets to music events and music yourself.

Absolutely. So So the song from the new album there is End Song. That's going to make your playlist really long. You're going to have to keep it at the end because it's called End Song, but it's got that really atmospheric feel that The Cure specialize in. You know, I've talked about two artists here that both specialize in very atmospheric music you can get lost in, and I think End Song really ticks that box. And I'm just going to quickly throw in, it's not all old farts, if I can use that word, that I go to see. I also saw in the last month The Last Dinner Party.

I thought you were saying Taylor Swift.

No, I didn't. I did look, I did look, but as I say, I don't like arenas. What do you think I think of stadia? But yeah, Last Dinner Party, a bunch of 24-year-old girls, I think, or women, and they are just superb. Absolutely wonderful. Yeah, really, really good.

Andy, that's fantastic. Thanks so much for coming on. Really appreciate it. You nailed it. It's been great speaking to you, and hopefully we'll see you on the next one.

I look forward to it. It's mine now. It's mine now.

Cheers.

Thanks, Gary. Bye.

Bye. Many thanks for listening to this excellent dive into the art of mentoring, and a huge thanks to Andy for coming back on the show. If you want to dive even deeper into the world of mentoring, guided by two top experts in the field, pick up your copy of the Financial Times Guide to Mentoring: A Complete Guide to Effective Mentoring by Andy Adil Lappata and Dr. Ruth Ghoshian. We hope you've enjoyed this episode, and we'll see you next time.