MINI-SERIES: CAREER CATALYST - Interview Genius

After all, all art is experience. Hello and welcome to the second installment of the Career Catalyst miniseries, which we're doing to celebrate the release of Gary's new book, Career Catalyst: 10 Secret Job Skills They Don't Teach You in School. We're traveling back through time to January 2021 and episode 4 of The Company Doctor and examining one of the absolute fundamental skills of any self-respecting career catalyst, The Art of the Interview. We may have recorded the original nearly 4 years ago, but the lessons and insights in this edit are as relevant, if not more so, today than they were back then. This is part 2 of our Career Catalyst miniseries, Interview Genius. Say the analogy of self-pity. It's a big one, this one. It's, um, it's one that we've been looking forward to for, for quite a while, and it's all about sort of the art of the interview and how to be an interview genius. As mentioned in the intro, we're, um, we're doing it slightly differently this time, and we're going to be talking just the two of us, Gary being such an authority on the subject anyway, we don't feel like we need anyone else to weigh in on this. Sure. So we've got the goods between us. So maybe, Gary, you can talk us through the sorts of things we're going to be covering, what people can expect from this episode, what they're going to be walking away with. Yeah.

And actually, you know, what you've alluded to in the intro, you know, we had a very successful audiobook a few years ago, about 3 or 4 years ago, got to number 2 in the business iTunes charts. We're very proud of it. But we thought, you know, timing-wise, good chance to have an update. The world's moved on, as we all know, and so have ideas. So 3 really headings. One is about progressive planning. It's all the before stuff. The second one is the, what I call, pilot your participation. It's all the during stuff. When it's kind of when you're in the moment. And actually the third section, which is slightly surprising probably for some, is what I call the interview hangover. It's the kind of after stuff, what you should and shouldn't do afterwards. There we go. There are three things.

Okay, great. Well, yeah, I like it. I like the format. It's a classic format for us. We can say— Exactly. So obviously, as you said, you know, it's a we're in a time where people are going to be needing this advice sort of more than ever. And if they're in a position, a fortunate position to have been accepted to come and interview for a job or whatever it may be, what happens first? Because obviously you've got that elation, haven't you? You've got that sort of, right, great, first steps in there. But then you've also got that immediate sort of a little bit of a crushing fear about how—

I was going to say, you said elation. I was thinking fear.

Yeah. Yeah. For me, it's a bit of— Yeah, bit of both.

There's probably a word for that. Someone will come up with it in the dictionary. Like crisis means— sorry, change means crisis and opportunity. There's probably a word for it anyway. Yeah, probably the most important thing to do. And actually, we were talking about this earlier. I think the other episodes that we've done are a great rehearsal for this. So we're not going to recover some of the things in the other episodes. I really highly recommend people go back to the networking and Out of Work or Next, because I think they're really helpful to this. But the first thing to do is we call it progressive planning, but it's really to get underneath the company that you're going to go— obviously, you're going to go and visit, or not, as the case may be, but the company you want to go and work for and the person and looking through their lens. We want to get under the covers of as much as we can about what the company is doing, where it's going, and we'll talk about how to do that in a minute. And as much as you can about the people that you, if you know who's going to be there. If you don't, really highly recommend you try and find out because that will really make a difference.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is something which Gary's actually helped me in the past with, and it was an approach which I wasn't really used to, I wasn't really okay with, but the idea of doing your research on the people, I think, as an initial step is such an important one. It's definitely helped me in the past.

Yeah, I think the principle is that there There is a small chance that you might know someone who knows them anyway, or knows of them, or knows the company. And anything you can do to, you know, we talked about warm contact in the last one of the other episodes, anything you can do to make it less cold and connect with the person and the company, A, they feel good that you've taken the time, obviously, and B, you'll have a much better conversation for sure.

And how far should you take that? I mean, obviously you don't want to be sort of mentioning their pet's names and things like that. How far should you take this research before you go into the interview? You mean like stalking them on Facebook or tracking their family. Exactly.

Well, to be honest, as much as you can, and then obviously use common sense to how you use it. I mean, the obvious ones are a bit of background about their hobbies and things they like to do. Not that you can kind of pounce on them, but that it's good to know because when you're talking about yourself, you might be able to talk about those and they go, I like cycling or whatever it is. And the other thing is really trying to understand their ambitions. Sometimes you're fortunate when you're doing research, you'll find something that someone's just done an article on them or something, or on the company, and it gives you a chance to pull out those things. But I would go, you know, spend maybe 20 minutes on the company and 20 minutes on the people, person, people. It might be more than one, so bear that in mind. Different personalities, different backgrounds.

Yeah, for sure. And does that help with the, um, does that help with your confidence as well going into it? You know, you've got a bit of a fallback in case things are, things are going wrong. You can sort of fall back on a bit of, uh, of research that you've done, or is it purely just to sort of warm up the contact?

Well, no, it's a really good point. It's actually the opposite. It's all about confidence because basically what we're going to talk about in the planning is the more you plan and you've been through understanding the people and the questions they might ask you, we're going to talk about in a minute, the more confident you're going to be because any question they ask you, any situation that comes up is likely that you've already thought about it, rehearsed it, ready for it. So absolutely, it makes a big— if you want to improve your confidence, The best way is to be prepared.

And everyone's got different ways of rehearsing. Everyone's got different ways of sort of going over those sorts of things in their heads. And it's probably different for everybody, but for you, who's coached people on this and who's seen what success looks like in terms of that sort of rehearsal aspect of the preparation, what's the best way to begin? How do you start?

Well, I think, you know, during your preparation, make a little asterisk against things. So a place to look, I just want to add this because I think it really helps. If you're looking up the company, Go to the webpage, go to investor relations, and in investor relations, it will give you— there'll be an annual report in there if they're a public company. And in the first couple of pages, it will talk about their strategy and where they're going. So that will give you some information that you want to go, ah, okay, one of those smoking gun things where I want to kind of go back and ask them some questions about it. And then when you're rehearsing, I would recommend you do this on your own, but do it out loud because when you verbalize something, And you're really cool anyway, aren't you? When you are, you're looking in the mirror, you go, they're going to say this and I'm going to say that. And it's really quite cool. And then when you're feeling brave enough and you're well rehearsed enough about everything they're going to ask you, then do it with your partner, your friend, and get them to fire questions at you and just get used to that. They ask me this, I say that. It's likely if you've done the right preparation that most of the things you're thinking about and rehearsed will come up.

Okay. And it's worth saying that you probably feel a little bit silly at first doing that because I've definitely done that in the past. Just talking to myself in the mirror. And I've had to take that step because I'm very eloquent in my head when I'm sort of thinking, I'm the most eloquent person in the world. But as soon as it comes out, it's, as I'm sure everyone will attest.

Did I say that? Was it me?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, so don't worry about feeling stupid. You probably do look a bit stupid, not you personally, but you probably do feel a bit stupid, but that's okay. Because actually on the day, as I say, if you've done the right preparation, it's likely that you've already thought it. Thought through the answer. So I think it's a good thing to do.

And can you prepare for the sort of, for the ambiguous questions that are going to be thrown at you? Can you prepare for the moments where you're sort of stumped and you think, okay, hang on a second, I'm going to need a second to think about this, but maybe I should be saying something to sort of shy away from the awkward silence. Is that something which people should be doing or should you embrace the silence?

Absolutely. And by the way, you know, you should never be stumped. If you're stumped, you've kind of, you've blown it, I'm afraid. Because if you've done your preparation, sorry to say that, but if you've done your preparation, then things will come up that you're not rehearsed on and you're not comfortable with. But I think it's really a mindset thing. The confidence comes from doing the preparation, and your mindset should be, I see myself being successful. And as we've talked about before, you get what you expect. So I'm not saying you should be arrogant, because if you're arrogant, you've lost it as well. But be confident enough that they need you, you're the right person for the job. And you see yourself being successful. Then, because you've done all the planning and you're confident, when something comes up that's a bit ambiguous, draw on your experience, or it's okay to say, no, I haven't come across that before. But don't hesitate and say, I'll come back to you. Obviously, you don't get a chance to do that, so you've got to have an opinion.

That's good to know because you can get a bit blustery. Not you, again, personally, but people can.

Probably me as well.

You can sort of start to get a bit rambly when they don't know the answer to something. And what else goes into the preparation? I mean, is there Is there any sort of ritualistic type stuff to do beforehand? You've mentioned having this, telling yourself that you can do this and that you are confident. Is there anything else you can do to help with that confidence in the run-up to the interview?

I'm not going to suggest you do the Muhammad Ali thing where you look in the mirror and go, "I'm the greatest, I'm going to make this." You can do that if you want, but it's actually more important to think about the questions they're going to ask you. So think about the role, look at the job description, and think through, use their language and think about the questions they're going to ask you. There's some obvious questions, actually much more obvious than you may think. They're going to ask you, why you? Have you done this before? What experience have you had? Think through all the things they're going to ask you. They're going to ask you about your strengths and weaknesses. There's some key questions we're going to talk about when we're actually in the participation part and think through the answer and get someone to rehearse that answer. If you've done that, then list all those questions they could possibly ask. There's not that many because most people will ask the same kind of stuff. They want to know, have you done it before? Do you know what you're doing? Have you got the experience from— can you draw on the experience from the past? And that will get you to that. That's the most preparation you can do. You've got the questions down, you've done the research about the company and the person, you've rehearsed all of those things in your head and out loud. You're ready. You know, as long as you've done it enough, you're ready.

Even if you do get a curveball, as long as you're confident in your answer, even if it's not necessarily— because a lot of these questions, and you'll know this as an interviewer, a lot of them don't necessarily have a right or wrong answer. It's more just to get an idea of someone's character. And if your character is someone who's confident and cool in a crisis, then regardless of what you say, that's probably a good outcome.

Good for you, right? Now, obviously there's different formats now, so it might be a video call, you might eventually be able to get out of the house and go physically. Something to look out for if you're not wearing a tie, which is unlikely these days to be doing. If you get a difficult question, the middle of your neck goes red. It's a bit of a giveaway sign, something to look out for. So, you know, I don't know what the answer is, you know, maybe button up your collar at the top or something. But yeah, wear a roll neck. You can look really— wear a roll neck. You look cool, but you know, it's just something to look out for.

Yeah, the giveaway signs. And in terms of appearance, is there anything that you'd recommend? Is there any sort of style that means business that you've noticed in the past, or is it just whatever you feel most comfortable in?

Well, you know what, I think it's changed. In the past, I would have said, you know, dress smart, wear a tie and that kind of stuff. I don't think that's the case anymore. I think you have to dress appropriately. So whether you're male or female, you have to wear the right kind of attire for the work that you'll be doing, for the job. So, you know, if you're If it's a building job, then you wouldn't wear a suit. And if it's a fashion job, you need to be dressed appropriately. No high heels, George, don't wear those. No one will see you. So I just think you need to be professional, you need to be relevant, and just don't stick out like a sore thumb. So you need to be tuned in to how it might work for them, obviously.

And who's done it in terms of the interviews that you've done in the past? What's been the thing that has shone through most for you in terms of, you know, when is it sort of an instant thing? Do you tend to walk in and see the candidate and think, right, you know, within a sort of minute of them speaking, you're thinking, right, this person is great. Or is it something which it takes the full interview for you to, I mean, obviously this is going to be different in most cases, but are there any things that people can do to be that instant sort of success?

Yeah, I think that probably the most important one is maybe not an obvious one, is you've got to be able to connect with the person. So you need a kind of energy. You can feel an energy when someone— don't be wired and fired so you come in and look like you're on drugs or something, but you've got to have a kind of— you need to kind of up your game a little bit. So if you've not had a great day or you're worried about it, you might come down as kind of a low-energy kind of person. So just turn up the energy just enough, not too much. And then secondly, as an interviewer, I'm really impressed if people have done the preparation and they ask me good questions. So they look the part. They're informed, they've taken the time to understand what the role is, what the company's doing, and a little bit about what's happening out there. That kind of thing makes a big, big difference to me when I'm interviewing.

Is that as much as people can do in terms of their progressive planning? Is there anything, any other little tricks and/or tips that they can sort of work on before going into the interview itself?

Yeah, there's one more which I would always recommend because the world is a small place. If you've done that research, find out people that you know that either know that company, either work there, know someone there, and maybe know the people that you're going to be seeing. Because if you can do that, that just ups your game a little bit more because you can find out more from them. You can name drop if it's relevant to those people, and they will check back, by the way, in the other direction with those people. So hopefully it works out for you. But if you do that, you're trying to differentiate with everyone else. So people get off on the fact that you might know someone there and and they know you. So I think that would be the only other thing I would suggest.

I suppose it also demystifies it a bit as well and makes it a bit less scary. If you know someone who knows someone who works there, or if you're familiar with the faces or some of the faces that are there, it's not suddenly a sort of faceless, scary company who are there to grill you.

And it's a small world now, you know, so everyone knows someone who knows someone, right? So before you know it, it's easy to go and find a connection. And it's a better thing to do because you're not— you're trying to find the warm contact again, so you're not cold.

Okay, great. Well, your second point was the— I do like that. Yeah, I like it all. The pilot, your participation section. Yes. Maybe you can explain a little bit what you mean by that because I love these headings, by the way. And I've got to say, I think I made a snide comment about your handwritten notes that you sent me. Yeah.

And now I've sent you two.

The one that you sent this time. Yeah, it's immaculate.

I've upped my game, right? I've upped my game for you, George. Big time. It's a pleasure.

You're welcome. Exactly.

So basically, partly your participation is about, you know, you don't get a chance to make a good first impression. You don't get a second chance for that. And I talk it in terms of showtime. And interestingly enough, the interview's already started the moment you speak to someone. Now, if you go and visit, and we will visit people again, hopefully, If someone comes to collect you in reception, your interview's already started. I don't know who they are. We don't know who they are. They might be someone important or someone not. But everyone says, what do you think of that person? At some point. So your interview's already started. And then secondly, when you're getting in front of someone, it's showtime. You've got to perform and you've planned for this. So it's not so daunting now because you're kind of ready and you feel good about it. Probably the nonverbals are just as important as the verbals. It's the body language. Try to be relaxed. It's an adult-to-adult conversation. We talk about this all the time. They're not more important than you. You're not more important than them. You're having an adult-to-adult conversation. You've got the experience. They need you. Your job is to connect the two together. That's what this is about. So piloting your participation is you take control. And again, I'm not trying for you to be arrogant and you're not interviewing them. That's not what this is about. But you take control of this session because this is what you've planned for. And that's what we want to help you with now is to how you would do that. And there is a secret way to do that. Is there? Well, I just thought if I throw that in, then people might listen a little bit further along the podcast. Yeah.

Stay tuned.

Stay tuned for the killer tip that's coming.

Hi, George here. Bear with me while I excitedly share the news that the company doctor Gary Gamp has just released a book available for purchase on Amazon. Career Catalyst is a compendium of insightful advice from the mind of the company doctor, designed to supercharge your journey on the path to career success. And it's out now on Kindle for just £6.99 and paperback for £10.99. Do yourself a favor, pick up a copy today, follow the 10 secrets to the steps that Gary outlines within, and soon you'll be navigating the world of work with the carefree heroism of Sir Ernest Shackleton. You mentioned the arrogant side of things. Is it— is there— it is a bit of a thin line, and I just wondered if you've got any guidance for people around that, you know, how, how to come across as confident and relaxed without coming across as sort of bolshy and arrogant.

Yeah, no, I think it's a good question to ask. You've got to have confident vulnerability. And that's the balance. So you've got to be vulnerable enough that you're interested and you're slightly vulnerable. Do you know what I mean by that? You're kind of open-minded enough to listen and learn, and then you've got to be confident enough that you know what you're doing and you've got something about you. And if you can find the balance of those two things, that stops you being arrogant. Be vulnerable enough But don't be too vulnerable as you're needy.

Yeah.

But be— and then be confident enough and not too confident because then you're, then you're arrogant and it's somewhere in the middle of those two things, I would say.

Confident vulnerability.

I love that. You got it. We can add that to the next t-shirt, right?

Yeah. Great. Yeah. Stay tuned. And speaking of stay tuned, is it time for the secret tip now?

Oh, I thought you'd never ask. Absolutely. But here, this is it, right? And this is how piloting your participation works. When you go in, obviously, we talked about how you should behave, but the most important thing to do is to ask a question at the beginning of them and then anchor everything else that you're doing in that session to the answer to this question. Now, obviously, you need to ask the question that's relevant for you, but I'll give you an example. I might ask, for this role, what does good look like for you? What is the type of person you're trying to look for, and what would make the biggest difference to making this role successful? Something like that. Now, it doesn't— don't copy me. It's not exactly like that. But then based on that, the answer to everything else I'm going to do in this session is going to be anchored back to the answer to that question.

Okay.

So putting the onus on them. You sound like you've got one of those George kind of, hmm, I'm not sure about this.

Go on, tell me. Well, I was wondering whether you should— so you're putting the onus on them almost to sort of reveal their secrets almost and sort of let you know exactly how to be the best for the next 45 minutes.

That's why it's a killer question, right? That's why it's a killer question. That's a killer question. Yeah. Now you're worried that they're going to find you out, aren't you?

I'm worried that they're going to see through my ruse.

Yeah. Yeah. No, not at all. It's how you say it. But the most important thing is before I get started, because basically what you're about to do is bore them with your CV. Not you personally.

Yeah.

Yeah. And what we don't want to do is bore people with your CV. What you want to do is you want to make a connection as soon as possible so that you— you asked me before, you want them to make a decision as early as possible in this interview that they want you, and then they're going to start selling it to you. Okay, so the way to do it is you ask a question like that.

Should you be as obvious about it as when they're telling you the answer to that question, as taking notes that you can then refer back to throughout the rest of the interview?

I mean, that's probably taking a bit too far, but you know, potentially you could do that. I mean, I don't think you need to do that. I think you could do that, but if that makes you feel more comfortable. I think the main thing is, you know, like for example, they might say, you know, we need someone that is business-minded, you know, very good customer experience. I'm just making stuff up. And then, you know, as you go through your CV and experience, you're just going to keep connecting back to some of those things. Not in a, oh, here's an example of me being customer-focused. No, not like that. Well, you can, but you won't last very long if you do that. That sets you up.

When you're going through your CV, as you say, it can be a little bit boring. It's like going through slides sometimes when people just read what's on the slide. It can be a little bit dull, and I'm sure that interviewers, having seen those other people like to have things spiced up a bit. Are there any ways that you, when you're talking about, talking through your experience, talking about your CV and articulating your CV, ways of jazzing it up slightly just to make that part of the interview less of a chore? Or is it just a case of relating it back to that initial question?

Yeah, what they want to do is they're hoping there's a match. Your job is to show them there's a match. So you don't need to go through the chronological order of your CV. What you need to do is now they've told you the things they're looking for. And by the way, if they don't tell you, then your preparation has led you to that anyway, because you know what, roughly what they're looking for. And then your job is to say, look, I won't go through, I won't bore you with my CV, but let me just highlight a couple of things. And don't talk about we. The most annoying thing as an interviewer is when people talk about we, because it means they haven't done it. There's something called a competency-based interview where I want to know, I want evidence. My job as an interviewer is to gain evidence that you know what you're doing, you've done this before. So don't talk about we, talk about, all right, this is what I did. And, you know, in my role, I did this. And it sounds a bit ungainly to talk about yourself, but that's what you need to do. Talk about I, don't talk about we.

And when you say don't talk about we, you mean don't talk about we as in the company that I've been working for and the stuff that we've done, rather than, you know, rather talk about what I've achieved.

Yeah, because they want to know what you've done. They don't care what your company's done. Because when people say we did this, What they really mean is, I didn't do this at all, someone else did this. And they're looking for evidence that you've done this.

Great. Okay, that's good. And that's definitely something which you can do, as you say, in the preparation section before you get to this part, going through the CV and figuring out what's going to be relevant to the interview is obviously a crucial thing to do.

There is something else I just want to share with you, because I want to make sure we cover everything, and it's something I call the gruesome threesome.

I saw that written down and I was unsure how to ask you about that.

What the hell is the gruesome threesome? So here's the gruesome threesome. Part of your preparation is you need to have thought through these things. They're going to ask you 3 questions. They're going to come up. The first one is, what's your strengths? It may not ask it in this way, by the way. They're going to ask you what your strengths are. It's okay to blow your trumpet. Make sure you do. Think about it. And again, you can connect it back to what they're looking for. The second one is less comfortable, which is about your weaknesses. Now, they're not always going to ask you that directly, what your weaknesses are. They might ask you something about what would you like to be better at or something like that, but it's coming. You've got to be prepared and you've got to give something away. So if you're a project manager, don't say you're not very organized. That doesn't go down very well. But something I say, and again, don't just repeat what I'm saying, but something I will say is I'm a very driven person. That's not everyone's cup of tea. Yeah. You've got to give something to them when they ask you that question, but not the crown jewels. Don't give away the crown jewels. And then the third one is they'll ask you something about why they should give you the job. Why you? I've got lots of people I'm seeing. Why should I give it to you? And you have to have thought through the answer to that question, and that will be vital to make a difference. And again, that's part of your preparation, but it will help you be strong. There's lots of other questions, but those are kind of the gruesome threesome that people fall over on. I'd say.

Yeah, those are the big three, aren't they? And I think especially the weaknesses one, you know, you have people who say, oh, I'm too hardworking, or, you know, I'm, if anything, I'm on time too much. But you're right, you need to sort of say something which is potentially a bit divisive, but is also, you know, it's a strong opinion about something.

And that's part of you being vulnerable, you, but it is contrived a little bit, I guess.

Yeah, but I suppose they're expecting that, aren't they? They're not expecting someone to say, "Oh, I'm just lazy." Nothing wrong with it.

I'm lazy, or there's nothing— I've done nothing wrong. I never do anything wrong. I'm a perfect person.

I have no weaknesses.

Like you.

Yeah, exactly. I'm the exception. In terms of leaving people with a good impression, I mean, obviously the interview itself can go many different ways, but you want to end on a high, don't you? You want to end on a good note and leave them with an impression differentiate yourself from the other people they've seen. Are there any good ways of doing that or ways which you've seen people do in the past which have stuck?

Yes, I'm pleased you asked. This is something my dad taught me, actually, because I'm old, it was a long time ago, but always ask a bloody good question at the end. So the idea is you ask a bloody good question at the beginning and a bloody good question at the end. That makes you look good. So when they say to you, have you got any questions? You go, oh no, you've answered everything. Bad answer. If you've, as part of your preparation, think of a really good killer question at the end and that makes them think, makes you look smart. So for example, I've done some research on the company that we're seeing and I noticed they were doing some stuff in China and they were worried about it because the Chinese were copying everything they were doing in this particular case. So I said, I've noticed some stuff going on in China. What difference is that making to this business unit? And they went, ah, let me tell you that. And they'd spend a while telling me what was going on. So I said, you know, but at least you ask a question about where the market's going or something interesting, not a blah blah question. And that is a great way to finish. And it makes you look smart, smarter than you feel.

And when you have that conversation with them, it feels like you're one of them already. You know, they're sort of saying, oh, well, you know, unburdening their woes on you. You suddenly feel part of the fold, which is obviously ideally where you'd want to be by the end of it.

Definitely. I think that's, you know, and that's a good way to finish, I would say. There's loads of other things, but I think that would be a key one at the end.

Okay, so a question sandwich basically is what we're talking about here.

A great question at the beginning. Question sandwich, I like that. Yeah. Yeah, question sandwich, very nice. Very nice.

And I suppose good to have one prepared, but then also if you think of one during the interview which you can relate to, then even better, I guess, because it makes it a bit more—

Yeah, actually, that's just reminded me, because a big question I get a lot of the time is, Some people are focusing so hard on answering the question that they forget. So I think about the next question, they forget what the person was saying, so they kind of lose track of what was going on, like I did just now, really. So a key tip of that is don't worry about the next question. Think about what they're answering and use that as the basis of the next question. Don't worry about the next question and you're going to run out of things to say. Don't worry about that. Because they're going to ask you more questions than you're going to ask them. But be good at asking questions. I think it's a good degree of common sense to do that.

Yeah, that makes sense. So you've made a memorable exit, you've asked your killer question to leave them sort of absolutely astounded with your intelligence. And then I was really interested to hear about this, the fact that there's a third section to this, because you'd assume that once you've walked out the door, that's it, you know, you can sort of take a deep breath and move on with your day and wait for the phone call. But From what I gather, there is a third section to this.

Yeah, I call it the interview hangover because you've done whatever you've done, right? And that's it. And so you leave and it is what it is. And then people go through this kind of panic and like, I didn't say everything I should have done. When I was looking in the mirror, I was much better than this. It is what it is, right? But then the key question that people always ask is, well, should I follow up? Should I call them? Should I wait for them to call me? It's a bit like dating, really. It's all a bit, shall I, shall I? And my view of this is, I'm going to contradict myself a bit. If they want you, they want you, right? It's not going to change. If you call them, they're going to suddenly go, well, actually, yes, I do want you. Yeah. So, and most companies, they have a very difficult process of getting things done. They might want someone else to interview you. It may not just be one person in the room, by the way, we haven't spoken about that. So, if they want you, they want you. But if they haven't had the courtesy to come back to you, then you can, after maybe a week, a week and a half, you can follow up with them. But the truth is, you're probably best not to. I know everyone would agree with me, but my thoughts are that if I want to work, it's a two-way street, right? If I want to work for that company and they've not got the courtesy to come back to me, then maybe I don't want to work there. Now, on the other hand, I do understand that process is pretty longer than you think. Having done it, I mean, it's quite difficult internally to get things moving. So, you know, give them a bit of time, you know, but if after 2 weeks they've not come back to you, it's not looking good, I think.

Yeah, no, for sure. And what are your views on calling for feedback? So, you know, sometimes you'll get an email or something saying, you know, you've been unsuccessful and an email is obviously a bit of an impersonal way of doing it and sometimes a bit annoying, but is it worth calling up and saying, you know, what did I do right? What did I do wrong? Just sort of as a bit of a learning curve.

Yeah, I think it depends on the way you're wired, right? I think so. I think most people are not very good at interviewing and they don't like giving bad feedback, right? So therefore you'll hear stuff that probably isn't true about why you didn't make it. And by the way, it's really important throughout the whole process to never be defensive. And therefore at the end, you don't want to leave a bad experience, like being annoyed with them, because it's a small world and everyone knows everyone else, right? So During the interview, and I just want to reiterate this, at no point should you be defensive. So if you ever watch The Apprentice, when they do the interview part, the thing that people fall over on is that the interviewer is trying to get their goat, and the secret is to not tell them where your goat is tied up, right?

So never let—

just never be fazed. And likewise, part of the feedback, if you're not their cup of tea, then you're not the cup of tea. It's probably not your fault. It is what it is. But I would ask because I say, I really want to learn from this. Don't give me the kind of the usual feedback I get. Who knows? It's a small world. We may meet again. I'd really appreciate you telling me.

Yeah. So don't burn bridges.

Definitely don't burn bridges because it will come back and bite you. It's a small world. Everyone always asks, do you know this guy? Because it's easy to find them. And if they say, I interviewed that person and they started crying afterwards. Putting your hand in my hair, you know, it will come back and bite you. That was what I would say.

Yeah. And equally, if you've done a really good interview, but there was someone who was slightly more experienced or slightly better, but they know of another role coming up elsewhere, then they're going to be more likely to recommend you if you sort of go out with grace and confidence. Yeah, definitely.

And also, you know, maybe the person they had in mind, you came second, that person said no. And maybe you're not the first choice, you're the second choice. That's okay. I'm cool with that. So they don't know how good you are at the moment and they made a mistake and they can come back to you. So you never know.

Well, listen, I think we've covered those three, those three sections. I think there's been some really useful stuff in there. It's definitely sort of stuff that I wish I had known about, um, sort of 3 or 4 years ago or even about 6 months ago. But anyway, that's a different story. But as always, we're going to do our 3 key takeaways, and I think there's a lot there to choose from. But if you had to choose 3, Gary, of things for people to take away and dwell on before their interviews, what would they be?

Yeah, so I've got 3 takeaways that actually are really 4 disguised as 3. The first one is preparation. Rehearsal is massively important. It gives you confidence, it gets you lined up. It's so valuable, but definitely verbalise it because your mind will be ready and tuned in. The second one is definitely ask a killer question at the beginning and at the end. Don't forget to do it. You don't have to ask the question the way I asked it. You can probably do it better, but definitely have a question at the beginning because you're going to link to it and have a question at the end so you show that you're smart. And the third one is please don't be defensive at any time. Have good energy and expect to succeed. Expect to do well because they need you. So those would be my 3 takeaways.

Great stuff. And as we don't have a guest in this episode, I wondered whether you might have a tune that you'd want to throw into our playlist.

God, you just hit me with that one.

Surprise. Yeah, you can put in a whole album or a whole artist if you like, if it makes it easier.

Yeah, that's fantastic. Well, I do have 3 tunes that spring to mind. The first one is I'm a big Steely Dan fan, and that even rhymes. And Peg is one of my favorite ones. It's high energy. I really enjoy it. Everyone always wants to dance to that one. So that's my first one. My second one is Portugal. The Man, Feel It Still. That is such a great track. Whenever you play that track, people just feel that gives energy. People seem to want to dance. And the third one is Stevie Wonder. I'm a massive Stevie Wonder fan. There's so many tunes there, but the One of my favorites relevant to this is Higher Ground. It was actually Red Hot Chili Peppers did a version as well, but the Stevie Wonder version is one of my faves. They would be my three.

Great choices. Thanks very much, Gary. Thanks to the Company Doctor and bona fide interview genius Gary Gamp for imparting some evergreen pearls of wisdom there. You can find the other two parts of our Career Catalyst miniseries over at thecompanydoctor.com. Where you'll also find a strong, ever-growing back catalogue of episodes filled with similarly useful and accessible advice from a host of inspiring specialists. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.