Networking Genius with networking strategist Andy Lopata #1

After all, all art is experience. Hello, you're listening to the Company Doctor podcast, the podcast that diagnoses some of the challenges faced by everyone navigating the world of business and prescribes some top-quality takeaway advice. I'm George Clowde. In each episode, I'll be joined by the Company Doctor himself, Gary Gamp. Gary got involved in the people business at the tender age of 14, when he started organising national events to raise money for cancer research. Since then, he's run the full gamut of business challenges. His roles as Customer Service Director at BT, EMEA Professional Services Vice President at Orange, Consulting Director at NCR, and EMEA Outsourcing Director at AT&T, to name but a few. These days, he's a highly regarded company doctor with a wide range of specialisms that we'll be exploring during this series. It has been said of Gary that he has the most extraordinary thirst for knowledge, both from technical and people points of view. Resulting in very well-informed views and behaviours. Working with Gary, as you're all about to find out, is a masterclass in contemporary management and human behaviour thinking, and I personally defy anyone to meet with him and not depart with at least one new insight. He's also just a bloody good bloke. This is the Networking Genius episode, in which we'll be talking about, well, networking, and what exactly that means today. And we're very pleased to be joined later on by business networking strategist Andy Lopater, But without any further ado, Gary, hello to you.

Hey, George, how are you?

Gary, I'm good. I'm very good. I'm feeling very pro at this already, as we were just saying.

Yeah, you are. You are a pro. And here we are on the first episode.

Exciting, right? Exciting times. Yeah. And it's been a long time in the making. And, and I'm glad that it's finally happening. And I was going to say that you're a doer. You're someone that does things. And I'm glad that you've made this happen.

Well, me too. And especially in these times, we need to make things happen, right?

Exactly. People need entertainment as well. Sometimes Netflix and sort of high, high expense shows aren't going to cut it. People want to know about, you know, business and they want to be company doctored.

They want to be company doctored. Let's doctor them then. Should we, should we get into it? Let's get, let's get doctoring.

Yeah, let's get busy. So we're obviously going to be talking about networking. And for a lot of people, myself included, I imagine networking throws up awful images of, you know, nervously shuffling over to large groups of people and asking nervous questions over canapés. And I know that that's not it. So we're going to sort of dispel some of those myths. But for you, what is networking today, Gary? How does it look? What does it look like?

That's a good question. I must admit, it did conjure up a little networking event I went to years ago where someone gave you a little gadget that you connected your wine to the plate so you could just have one hand free to shake people's hands. That was the last networking thing I did.

Yes.

So, exactly. Definitely is not about going to networking events, although, you know, there's nothing wrong with it. Networking to me is really about connecting to people and being a normal person and creating relationships with people. I mean, obviously we're going to give it more structure today, but networking is not like a fake thing that you do when you've been made redundant or that you want to change jobs. Sometimes you see that people connecting up to LinkedIn. Networking is about having a genuine way to build relationships and connect with people on a sustainable basis, I guess.

It's a way of life, essentially.

Hopefully. I mean, that's what I want to get across today. I want it for people to think of it as a way of life. I mean, a lot of people do it naturally anyway, but when people announce, I'm networking, then it kind of worries me a little bit, to be honest.

And when did you— so when did you first— before we get into the sort of structured analysis of it all, when did you first realize the importance of it to you? When did you first think, you know what, I'm good at this and this is going to make a big difference to my professional life?

I'm not sure if I kind of woke up one day and thought, you know what, I need to network. But interesting enough, when I was about 15, I know it seems like a long time ago, I was doing some charity work and I needed to get people to give us money, to be totally honest. And I realized the only way for a 15-year-old to get anyone's attention is to build a relationship with them. And they kind of think you're kind of either cheeky or a little bit cute, but it gives you a chance. And that was probably the first time I realized the importance of it properly.

I mean, I think for a 15-year-old, for anyone, it can be quite a daunting thing to sort of start putting in place networking, you know, more networks, I suppose. But, you know, for a 15-year-old, it must have been even more nerve-wracking. Can you be— I mean, you're obviously a confident guy, Gary, that's clear to anyone listening here. But can you be an introvert and still be a successful networker?

Yeah, absolutely. And I kind of, as I was telling you about being a 15-year-old, it did worry me that I might make people worry that they're Not like that, but being a cocky 15-year-old. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's what we want to get across today, is that we want to give you some practical tips so you can go tomorrow and feel natural about it and it becomes part of your DNA, no matter what, whether you're an introvert, an extrovert, or any type of vert. You have to do it.

A gewurztraminer.

A gewurztraminer, bringing wine into it works for me.

Thank you. So, right, I think people will soon figure out that I'm a bit of a newbie when it comes to the business world, so they won't have to imagine very hard that I'm a business newbie. But imagine I'm a business newbie. Where do you begin with networking? And, you know, what's the journey?

Well, that's a damn good question, and I'm going to say something that will surprise you, I think, and people listening. I think the place it starts is with— I want to talk about serendipity. You know, probably a lot of people listening thinking, what the hell is he talking about? And why? Is he talking about serendipity? Are you thinking that, George?

Yeah, big time. I'm interested to see where this is going because I can't think for the life of me.

No, exactly. Serendipity. I mean, if we had other people on, I'd ask them what they thought serendipity was. But serendipity is, have you ever had that situation where you went out somewhere, you're in another country in the middle of nowhere, and then you bumped into someone that either knew you or knew someone else? Yeah. Of a weird Twilight Zone moment. Twilight Zone moment. Do you ever come across that?

I have, actually. Yeah. I can't think of any examples, but I've definitely seen people in strange parts of the world and thought, I know you from somewhere. And there's been a sort of connection there, which we've then realized, and our minds have been collectively blown.

Happens all the time, right? Sometimes at the station in the olden days when you used to be able to travel and bump into someone I hadn't seen for years. What's the chances? And so serendipity is kind of what I would call a meaningful coincidence. It's a meaningful coincidence. And the reason for talking about it now is I want people listening to this to think about creating their own serendipity, their own meaningful coincidences, because here's my story. For those of you that know me, know I don't have much hair. And George, no offense, but you and I have the same aerodynamic hairstyle, I would say.

Yeah, it's a good look.

It's a wash and go thing. And I remember I was driving along and I saw this billboard that said, it was a convertible car, how would you like the wind in your hair? And I thought, you know what? I would love the wind in my hair. And then everywhere I drove, I saw adverts for convertible cars. I think that's what advertising is supposed to do, by the way. Yeah. And so a lot of the serendipity is about when you're tuned into something, you're more likely to either see it or make it happen. That's really where I'm going with this. So that's just kind of a quick intro. And of course, it's a whole topic on its own, and some people are a bit deep and meaningful about it, but I just want to kind of just position this first as creating your own serendipity.

Yeah, I like that. Sort of make your own luck almost.

Yeah, absolutely. Make your own luck. Exactly. That's where I want to start. Does that answer that question first?

Yeah, certainly. I mean, I think you need to have that mindset, don't you? You need to be looking out for these coincidences and connections. And that certainly sounds like a good place to start.

Good. So that's the first bit. And then connected very quickly and closely to that, The next topic I want to talk to people about is personal brand. Right. I love the way you said right, like, where are you going with this? You know, serendipity, personal brand. I thought we're here to talk about networking.

Okay, well, how do these link? So serendipity, you're making your own luck, you're out there, your eyes are on the potential out there. Personal brand, what is it? What's yours? How does it work?

Right. Okay. The reason I'm mentioning personal brand is that if you eventually get out there and you network, then it's really important to work on your personal brand. Otherwise, people don't really care. So you could be doing all the— putting up all the effort to meet people and to build relationships. But if your personal brand isn't being worked on, then it's— you've got to be like Madonna. You've got to kind of keep reinventing yourself, and it will have less impact. That's really what I'm saying. Personal brand is about getting on the radar, I guess. If you work for a big company, everyone knows the company. You work for Amazon, people will know the company and they will relate you to that. But if you don't work for a funky brand, you work for yourself or a smaller business, you've got to work on your own reputation. And that's really what I mean when I talk about personal brand.

And is that a tricky thing to do? I mean, I suppose getting to know yourself is something that you just do throughout your life anyway. How do you sort of figure out what best to put forward to the world?

You're asking good questions, Jules. I like it. Again, it's a big topic on its own, but just as a bit of practical thoughts for people to think about, the first thing is what you stand for. So those people that know me know I'm a good family man. I like to socialize. My wife and I, we like to go out and party a little bit. So we like to drink, we like to eat, like to travel. And I'm a family man and my close family and close friends. So that's me as a person. And then the second thing is what I stand for. Well, my habits are all about being on time and doing what I say. If people ask you about Gary, they'll say he's always on time. Sometimes people think I park around the corner just to be there on time. I think I do, actually. I remember I went out with this girl once and I always turned up at 8:00 and she said, do you park around the corner? And I went, no, of course I don't. Of course I do. But being on time is an important part of my personal brand that people know they can rely on me. Yeah. And doing what I say, I'm the first person to turn up if you invite me to a party and the last one to leave. You know what you get with me, and that's my brand. Now, the reason for mentioning that is I can— I haven't kind of put that on paper because I want people to think of me that way. That's what I'm made up of. But now my behaviors need to match that, and that's my personal brand.

Okay. It's interesting, isn't it? Because you sort of, it's already decided who you are. You just need to play to your strengths and make sure everyone's aware of them.

Yeah, exactly. But I think if people are not happy with their own personal brand, then you can document where you think you are and what's important to you and make sure you're living it, because otherwise, sometimes you might be contradicting your brand. But just from a networking point of view, if you work on your brand and I think we're going to cover that in another episode, actually, in a bit more detail. Then you've got a framework to work within. And then when you're networking, you're just increasing your chances of people wanting to talk to you, to be honest. I mean, of course, they love whoever's listening to this. They love you, but make them love you more. That's really where we're going.

So that's all really interesting stuff. And we've talked about the importance of the personal brand and how you go about cultivating it. But then perhaps you can talk a little bit about how it's used to your advantage in sort of day-to-day life.

Yes, a bit of a good point really, because we've talked about changing behaviors and what you stand for, but there you go, you've changed your behaviors, but you're not going to do anything with it. So it's a bit like you're about, you get a hole in one, but no one's watching. So better give you some ideas about what to do with it. And just quickly, just, you know, 3 quick things to share. The goal really for networking is, and the reason we covered personal brand as part of networking, and people were kind of going, what the hell is this? Is we're trying to raise your level of awareness that when you contact people, they're expecting you, they've heard about you, you're on the radar, I guess. And probably the easiest way, and it's a big topic on its own, but just to kind of be succinct, is using LinkedIn. And there's 3 ways to do it. The first one is you need to have an opinion. Now, it doesn't matter if you work for yourself or another company, You want to stand for something in whatever subject area you're in. So have an opinion, write a blog or a post or something short. Doesn't take a lot of time on a monthly basis. The second one is to engage with content. So if your company has posted something, do a like, but kind of try and do a bit more than that. Maybe have a comment or highlight something you think is important for people to know. And the third one is for yourself to to interact with the content that's on LinkedIn from other companies. And the combination of those things means that you've got your personal brand, you're on the radar. So people have kind of heard about you, have seen you doing stuff, being active, and hopefully that will leverage your effectiveness when you're networking.

And you can change your personal brand if you're not happy with how things are. You can alter that.

Absolutely. Surprisingly, The answer is absolutely yes.

Yeah, that is surprising, to be honest with you. Although that said, I think that I would always say that I was always late, for example. So completely the opposite. I was known for always being late, not being unreliable as such. I'm probably not painting myself in a great light here, but I think I've managed to turn that around. So I suppose from a personal point of view, it is a possible thing.

Yeah. So basically you're reliably unreliable. That's fantastic.

Okay, right. So I've got that figured out and I know where I am with my personal brand. What am I looking for next?

Well, the next one is really you got to contact people, really. But before you do, you've got to plan what you're going to do and what you're going to say. And it actually starts with motivation. Now, there's so many books written on to-do lists and making people more productive, and it's the same with networking. The reason people don't do stuff is they're not motivated to do it. If I said to you, look, you go turn up at the airport without your passport and you say, oh, I'm sorry, I forgot it, you're still not going to get on the plane. And so you're motivated enough to never forget your passport. I mean, now and then maybe we all do a little bit. You understand what I mean? Yeah. And so if my children are in trouble or there's a real problem, I'll have the motivation to make sure they're okay or do what I need to do. And with networking, you've got to be motivated enough to do it because it takes effort and sometimes it's painful and it's difficult. And the doing part is preparing to meet the person or in these days to speak to the person or video the person. And so I want to know about the company, I want to know about the person themselves and things that are current on Google or just enough about them that I've got. I call it a blank piece of paper meeting. I'm not turning up with a slideshow. I've done enough planning, but it looks like I'm cool. I've got a few things I want to ask them to dig in a little bit more. I call them smoking guns, George. Okay. Do you remember in the old-fashioned movies where someone got shot and the gun was smoking? There was a bit of, aha, there's something going on here. I want to look for those, those little smoking guns. So when I talk to people, I want to have what I would call an adult-to-adult conversation. I don't want to be— I'm not subservient. More important than them. We're just having, like you and I, we're having a chat, right? That's why I want to be like that.

Yeah, I think that is really solid advice, actually, and it's something again which has helped me in good stead. I think if you remember that, you know, you're in an adult-to-adult conversation, that no one is above anyone else, and that, you know, you shouldn't be nervous about contacting someone, I think that's really handy advice. And I also think you're right about it being a mindset, and if you really care and if you really are driven to to create these networks, then you'll put the time every day to making sure it happens.

Exactly. And what a great linking, because I think you're going to ask me what's the next thing we should consider. I've only got two more. We want to get to the expert speaker as well at some point. The next one, you were going to ask me that, right?

I had a few little— no, yeah, I was. I was going to say that I had a couple for you, but I don't. I'm just going to— I'm sticking to the script here.

I love it.

I love it.

Yeah. So the next one is kind of what I would call leverage and momentum, because the worst thing you could do is you go all guns blazing. I'm going to speak to 20 people this month. I'm so into this idea, and then I do nothing. And the classic— I mentioned earlier about LinkedIn is a good example, because when people are in trouble at work or they want to change jobs or they're at risk of redundancy, all of a sudden you see this kind of activity on LinkedIn. It's kind of too late. It's genuinely too late. Now, if you want to make this part of your DNA, then you need to be consistent. Now, you don't need to do it all the, do it loads all the time. So if you haven't got the time to do networking a lot, then decide what you can do, but do it the same every week, every month. Yeah, that will give you a head of steam, if you like, to make this thing work. And it's part, you know, you know me quite well. I do this all the time naturally, but it wasn't natural at first. So you have to work at it. Yeah, exactly. So you've got to kind of, you know, fake it till you make it, really. Just keep doing it until it becomes really natural for you.

And that's become part of your sort of your everyday life now, hasn't it? As in, you know, I've seen you go into shops and leave as the best friend of the person behind the counter.

And I think that it does annoy my kids, though, a little bit, as you will know.

I'm not saying anything.

So when my kids were younger and you know some of my kids, then I used to go for the name badge of the person in the shop and I would say, hey, how are you doing today? And building a relationship because I generally like people and I care about them. And if I'm in an Uber, I'm doing the same. And my wife is rolling her eyes, right? Jane will roll her eyes. But I'm creating an energy, I'm creating a connection. That's the reason for it. And I enjoy it. Yeah. But both parties kind of enjoy that and it kind of really works.

Well, people respond to it, don't they? If you're very much being open and asking interesting questions, not necessarily always, I suppose, looking for smoking guns because you don't want to be putting someone behind the counter at Costa, you know, through the wringer. But I suppose if you're like that all the time, eventually, you know, people sort of catch up to you and people respond. And that's, you know, it becomes part of your, as you say, part of your personal DNA. Definitely.

And because of that, not intentionally, I'm getting all sorts of gifts all the time. As an example, if I go to IKEA, I normally get more than the 8 Swedish meatballs. Because I'm generally interested in people and I always get at least 12 or 15. Yeah, forever inviting me to things or things are happening. And that's back to the serendipity. This is all kind of connected by creating that energy when you're out there. If it's natural and it could be in events or it could be on the phone, it doesn't matter, then it comes back to you. That's really what I would say.

Yeah. And I can vouch for that, having witnessed it firsthand with people sort of offering you stays and wine and all sorts.

It's great.

You sound like a blagging thing.

That's what it's about.

And is there a danger of— and this, I'm sure, at first is terrifying, and when you get to your stage, less so. But is there a danger of making a fool of yourself in an attempt to network? Has that ever happened to you? And have you sort of stopped caring about that now?

Yeah, I guess for people that are listening, I want to maybe counter what I've said because they're probably thinking, God, this sounds really cheesy. I'm not— yeah, there is a danger actually that you try too hard and it actually, when you try too hard, it's repelling to people. So it's not like you're in people's faces. That's not really what we're saying. And that is a danger there. I think it's just make it natural, like we're talking now. If you can take the time to think of other people, networking isn't about what's in it for me. Networking is about what's in it for them. And it sounds like a subtle difference, but it isn't. I'm trying to add value to the person I'm meeting. A lot of the times I'll connect them to someone they were talking about something. I'll connect them to someone I know. I'm not trying to get money out of it. I'll try and help them. And I'm always sitting there thinking, what can I do for them? I know ultimately I want something for me, but that's not— if you worry about that, it'll be repelling and you'll be annoying.

Nobody personally, no. But you can spot it a mile off, can't you? You can, you know, rather than networking, people start schmoozing. And it's obviously possible to go over the top.

Yeah, like sucking up to you. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. So we're going to maybe move on now to our final stage of this. Although actually, before we do that, I might wonder if you could probably give us, maybe give some other ways of keeping up the momentum, because I think I think that's for me, when I was looking at some of these stages, that was probably the one which I think rang as the most important. I don't know if there are any— well, obviously LinkedIn is a good thing, but there are plenty of ways to keep up the momentum on a regular basis, I'm sure. Can you think of any others?

Yeah. So I think because you're going to do the research as part of the process and you're going to find out things about that person that might be able to help help them. I think the best way to keep momentum is to do things regular and often. So I'm not going to see the same people and drive them mad every week, but I certainly would diarise them to get back to them. So there's an ongoing conversation. Yeah, there's a number of reasons that help with the momentum because you're finding out what's happening in their market, what's happening in their world. So you're more informed, and the more you're informed, the more value you can offer people. And so when you speak to the next person, you can kind of share someone in a similar industry or some things that you'd heard, and that's where you create the leverage and momentum. It's not like I'm researching this person, I'm going through the motions. I'm genuinely interested. I'm finding out stuff. How do you become an expert? Well, speak to enough people on the topic and you become one, right? So that would be one way. And then the other one is to force yourself because you're trying to create a habit. To see, choose a number. But let's say you decide to choose to speak to, let's say, 10 people a month, which might be a lot to some people and not very much to others. Just get them in the diary and make sure it happens. Or do 5. Get started with 5. That will help you. It will become a habit if you do that for 30, 60 days. It will become a habit. Set yourself a goal.

Yeah. And it might feel a bit odd at first, sort of setting a reminder to check in with someone. But I suppose, as you say, once you've done it enough times, it suddenly just becomes part of your life.

Yeah, it's really interesting for me because I find out stuff from people. I enjoy speaking to people, but I find out a lot of stuff that I didn't know and then I share with others. So it just keeps it going and it keeps you on the radar.

Great. Okay. And then finally, I think you said you had two more and then we did one and now that leaves us with one more, if my maths is correct.

Your maths is genius, mate, I must tell you. I'm impressed so far.

Yeah, take us through the final stage. So once we've had our serendipity, we've sort of honed our personal brand, we've made the contact, we're regularly making the contacts and keeping up that momentum. What's our sort of final stage? Even though I know that this is an ongoing thing and there is no sort of end to it, what is our final bit of advice here?

Yeah, I've got a heading for this, and because of COVID you know, we need to adapt this to be on, you know, some people thinking of networking during a pandemic. Yeah, absolutely. More important than ever, right? And the final stage, as you say, it is cyclical, so it carries on, is what I call gameplay. Because it's kind of showtime. You've done all the preparation, you've worked on your personal brand, you've researched and done the planning, you try to get stuff in the diary to make it happen, and you're kind of ready for action, and then you got to take it. So it's the gameplay, it's showtime now. This is it. And not just about making it happen, but just making sure it works and learning and adapting from it so that you can continually be better at networking and enjoy it enough to make it part of your DNA. That's the goal. Let's make this part of our DNA. We really enjoy it. We get a lot out of it. People we speak to get a lot out of it. You got to add value, but that's what I'm trying to get you to is kind of think of it as gameplay. This is showtime.

Not game playing, not manipulation, but sort of, you know, you're set up and you're ready to go now.

Yeah, definitely not manipulation. Now, interestingly enough, and this is why I'm talking about the kind of COVID versus non-COVID times. Normally, if I'm physically meeting someone, I try not to meet them in the office. It sounds like a really weird thing, but people become very stiff and formal. I don't know why. In the office, all you need to do is hold their hand, take them over for coffee when you're allowed to. And they're a normal person in the office, they're much more formal. I have no idea why. So I do a lot of coaching. It's the same. So I will never coach anyone in the building. I'll always go over there for a coffee and they become normal person. Then you see when they come back in the building, they get all stiff and much more formal again. Not always, but that's something to think about.

So meeting on equal terms, basically.

Yeah, I guess. Yeah, maybe a bit of that. And just people can relax and then have a more adult— your goal is adult-to-adult conversation. You're more likely to have that if you go outside. I think, you know, in the current situation that we're in, you know, either Zoom or Teams or video meetings are good in a way. I'm finding I'm getting into more people's diaries because, you know, they're kind of a captive audience to some degree, but it's more intimate. Yeah, because, you know, you're kind of straight into it. It's a one-on-one thing. And, you know, that's important. One little tip I would give you If you're on a video, try to be on video if you're speaking to someone. I'm saying that now and we're on audio, but just testing that you knew that because it's more intimate. And another tip, if you are on video and this is going to sound odd, you'll be looking at the person on the screen and that's not the place to look because your camera is above that. So it's going to be weird, but look into the camera, not into the screen when you're talking to someone. Just a little tip someone gave me.

Just a bit of eye contact rather than just looking like you're glancing down.

Because we've all grown up, our parents say, look someone in the eye. But you look someone in the eye on a video and you're not looking in the eye at all. You look like you're cross-eyed, actually.

Yeah, I'll have to remember that because I've got a few Zoom calls coming up. Okay, we are Moving on to the guest appearance slot of this inaugural episode. Transitions between these sections are predicted to get more seamless as the series progresses. Our very first guest is business networking strategist Andy Lopater. Andy is also the author of new book Connected Leadership and host of the Connected Leadership podcast, both of which are out now and available via his website lopater.co.uk and of course the usual channels. Here he is talking to Gary about his views on modern-day networking while I listen on in mute admiration.

Well, hi, Andy. Thanks so much for joining us. Welcome to the Company Doctor podcast.

Thank you for having me. It's an honor to be your first guest.

Well, actually, it's an honor for us because the title today is Networking Genius, and I know you are one. So we're so delighted to have you here.

Thank you.

I know you do professional speaking. You're an author, and the title you have is Professional Relationship Strategist.

Yes.

What a great title.

Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I've been known for networking for a very long time, for over 20 years. And I'm sure we'll come on and talk about this, but the perception of networking, despite all my best efforts, is still wholly focused on one small area of it. And I realized late last year, I had to give up that fight of being a networking strategist. And it's about so much more. It's about those relationships we build and whether they're at networking events or elsewhere, it doesn't matter. What's really important is that professional relationships underpins so much of our success, and yet we put so little effort and thought and strategic thinking into how we maximize them. And that to me is absolutely key.

Yeah, and I want to get into that, but I've got a question for you really. When did you realize that you were a networker? Obviously you said you've done it for a long time, but when did you actually realize that you were a networker?

I, um, my dad co-founded a business network in 1998. And I remember him saying to me at the time, do you want to come and see what we're doing? I'd never heard of networking. And I said to him, it's at 7 o'clock in the morning, isn't it? And he said, yes. I said, good luck. And then 6 months later, I was part of the business. And I'd never heard the word networking before my father got involved. You know, we're talking about over 20 years ago when it wasn't as prevalent as it is now. But what he was talking about I was doing naturally. You know, I always was connecting people. I was always recognizing opportunities for others. And that's a lot of what networking is. So I always had that. But when did I realize it? When I got involved in that business and had a definition for the term.

Right. So you were kind of man and boy networker. That's good to hear. And here's a bit of a loaded question, Andy. Why does it matter? Is it important? And why does it matter? Why should people care about it? Because a lot of people don't really understand what it means and why it's important. Why does it matter?

Well, I just touched on that earlier. If you look at everything that you want to achieve in your career, in your role, it becomes so much easier with the help of other people. So much easier with the help of other people. If you take, for example, you know, the most obvious and commonly attributed benefit of networking, which is business development, and you can extend that in career terms into getting promotion or getting a job. It's a damn sight easier to attract new clients or win that new role if you've got other people advocating for you, making introductions for you, telling others that you're the key person. If you look at bringing change into an organization as smoothly as possible, it becomes a lot easier when you get key players on board and supporting your message and helping you share the benefits of that change, give you information about what other people are thinking and saying so that you can adapt that message and take people on the journey with you. And you can go through almost any challenge that people have in their career or in their role and then say, how would that be easier with the help of other people?

It's interesting to hear you say it. I was watching one of your videos where you were enthusiastically talking about Alan Sugar. Was I? Well, you were talking about the fact that he doesn't believe in networking, but he really does. Tell us about that, because that's interesting.

Yeah, well, I had heard Alan Sugar dismiss networking in the past. I can't remember the source of that, but going back a few years, you know, he very much epitomizes that 1980s red braces, dog-eat-dog type business culture that I abhor. And I can't watch The Apprentice because I think it just sends out such a terrible message about competition over collaboration.

Yeah, Phil Somers.

And then my sister bought me a copy of his autobiography a few years ago when it came out for my birthday or for Christmas. I was like, why did you buy me that? And, and, but I read it and it was a really interesting book. But, but the thing that struck me was there's a story in there about how he won the contract that really relaunched his career and took it stratospheric. And that was the contract to supply the satellite dishes for the new Sky technology, and it came through a recommendation. He wasn't pitching for it, he wasn't in the, you know, in the running, but someone else was approached. Can't remember off the top of my head who it was. It was a lord of the realm. He said, this isn't for me, but try Alan Sugar.

Yeah, so basically that connection, as you said, that relationship, or even a chance meeting sometimes, has made the difference. Yeah, no, it kind of makes sense.

It's what people say about you when you're not in the room that makes so much difference in your career and in your role. And that's a classic example of it, which is just ironic given, you know, who shared it.

So the thing I'm slightly confused about, because the other thing you say is connecting is not enough. So if network is important, why is connecting not enough? What do you mean?

Because you want conversations, not just connections. You know, if you look at LinkedIn, this is a classic example of this, that there is this really quite almost toxic culture of connections are all that matter on LinkedIn. I've got to the point where I've had to push all responses to LinkedIn connection requests, unless I know who they're from, to one day a week because I'm just getting so many now. And, you know, people are just clicking connect, connect, connect. I will send a message to pretty much everyone who sends me that connection request asking why. And I'm seeking a conversation. I would say 75% don't respond. So for them, they click connect, I click accept, their numbers go up by one, they celebrate. Where's the value in that? There's value from a marketing perspective. If you are putting out a lot of content on LinkedIn and you have more eyeballs on that content, there is marketing value. But from a networking relationship perspective, I click— you click connect, I click accept, we Yeah, no, makes sense.

Are you getting people after they've connected to you? Is it just me that get— they try to sell to you straight away, like within 3 hours or 1 hour?

I would get fewer because I wouldn't have accepted them in the first place.

There's a good tip in there. That's a good tip.

When I send that message, at those 75% who are ignoring that message, probably a large proportion of the ones who just pitched to you will be among those 75%.

I have had a process of just unfollowing immediately, but maybe I shouldn't take your advice and not connect initially. That makes sense.

I send a message and it just says, look, I use LinkedIn in a particular way, so I prefer to connect with people I know, but I don't want to ignore you. You know, what brought you to connect? Now, I used to say, tell me about yourself, but I took that out because I would just get chapter and verse. So, and interestingly, by taking that out, I don't ask about them. I simply say, what led you to connect? If they then— what I call it— if they fail the eye test. In other words, I had one response to that message a few weeks ago. There were 16 eyes in her reply, and then zero yous. Everything about her, nothing about me, no indication she'd looked at my profile. I get a lot of people say, I want to build my network, so I want to connect to you. What, you know, at the risk of being, you know, why should I care? I've never met you, I don't know you, I don't know if you're real, you know. So the tip is send out a message that invites a response, and then you can judge the person by that response. If they come back and say, look, I followed your work for a while, I find your profile fascinating, uh, and, and I would really love to be connected to you, then you might respond differently to someone who then just talks about themselves.

And you touched a bit, Andy, just there on the value piece. You know, what's in it? It's not about me, it's about you. Tell us more about that. What advice would you give people that are listening around trying to add value? Because ultimately, people do want to connect because they want a job or they want to move on, they want business, but it shouldn't be as in-your-face as that. What can they do to add value?

I wouldn't rush to that either. I think take everything at a pace. Unless you— that contact is absolutely key for you now and the only way, and then you've got to recognize this is a transactional approach and you're going to make it harder to build a long-term relationship. Unless that's absolutely key, focus on the long term. So get to know them. Think of it— it's a bit of a tired metaphor, I, I accept— but think about it like dating. People who are just sending you a connection request and pitching you same thing as going up to someone they find attractive in a bar and saying, 'Should we go?' So you're saying don't kiss on the first date? Well, don't just walk up on the first date and the first thing you say is, 'Should we go?' You can tell I'm old, by the way, because I obviously haven't dated for a while. But it's about time, you know, we live in a very short-term environment, short-term society, and particularly if you're in a sales role, you've got targets you have to meet in the short term. And in my book, I talk about a blended mindset where there's a partnership or transactional mindset to relationships, which is these are the key people I need in order to achieve my objectives. And there's a relationship mindset where these are people I have rapport with and I get on with and I have something in common with. I don't know what's in it at the moment, but let's build the relationship and see. And, and you need that blend in there. But ultimately, how long are you in your job for? How long are you in your career for?

More.

If you're in your 30s, for example, you've got 30 years ahead of you, so you don't need to sleep with everyone you meet straight away.

Do we need to move off this analogy?

And please don't use that clip out of context from that I said before. But it, you know, it's understanding that you're laying foundations now to make the next decades easier. I, I've been in this, as I said, for over 20 years. I've got people I met over 10, 15 years ago who are supporting me now.

It's a good point. There seems to be a bit of a rush. And is that because, you know, there's a moment in time, like someone has either lost their job or they're in a situation that makes them think, ah, I better network? Is that what's going on?

Yeah, well, the classic example of that, and one of my clients mentioned it to me earlier, I'm just about to mentor someone as part of a program with his company. And just before the briefing call, when I meet the mentees for the first time, I looked at their LinkedIn profiles. So on the call I said, I noticed we got some work to do on LinkedIn because 'If you accept my connection request, you will double your connections.' And he said that every time he looks at his LinkedIn profile and adds anything to it, people in his network say, 'Oh, so you're looking for a job, are you?' And, you know, I'm sure we've all experienced it where, you know, someone connects with us out of the blue, we haven't heard from them for years, and then the next thing we hear is, 'Look, I'm looking for a job, can you help me?' Carol Stone, who was the producer of Any Questions and Women's Hour on Radio 4 for a number of years, She once said, make friends when you can, not when you need them.

Yeah, that's good advice. That's good advice.

That's the approach. And if we use the, the LinkedIn example— and this, this is just an example, it just, you know, helps you visualize what should happen in, in the way you are generally in the rest of your life— but if you are consistently active in engaging with people and keeping your profile up to date, in sharing content, in talking to other people, then when you need to ask for help, it's a natural extension of what you're doing.

Andy, I want to switch gears with you a bit now, because a lot of people that I've spoken to kind of like the idea of networking, but they say this famous thing to me, which you've probably heard of, which is, yeah, it's okay for you, Gary, you know lots of people, I don't know anyone. Where do I get started? How does someone— first of all, how does someone build a network when they don't know anyone?

First of all, it's a question whether they genuinely don't know anyone. Or whether they don't know anyone in, uh, who they categorize in a particular way. What we have to understand is that everyone we know has a life beyond the life that they have with us. And what we tend to do is look at people based on our relationship with them. So, uh, you say you don't know anyone, but you might have a, a lot of personal friends and a lot of family members who also happen to be like-minded in, in work and business. And if, if they are comfortable and you can be comfortable with opening that conversation up business, and it won't happen with everyone, you look at that on an individual basis, then suddenly you have a network already in place. So I think I would challenge that statement. First of all, there are times when you genuinely don't know anyone, you may have moved area, you may have moved country. Sometimes people will move from one sector into another, and they don't know anyone in that sector. There are two ways I would go about or maybe 3 ways of going about building a network from there. One is I would start with people I do know, even if they're in different sectors, and just say, who do you know who— I've just moved to a new area, who do you know who lives in that area? Can you make some introductions? If we can build that network through introductions, we're off to a head start. So that would always be my first port of call. And then the other 2 are networking events, which we touched on earlier, and online networking, which we've touched on quite a lot. And it's about— it goes back to what I was saying earlier about going to those events or engaging on those social networks with a long-term strategy of building business relationships. There are options there for you.

Let me interject. Let me ask you a question because you're a natural networker. I mean, you even wrote a book called Building a Business Based on Bacon and Eggs, which is a masterclass on networking. But if I'm someone that I'm not a natural networker, I've never really done it before, I've never had to, I thought, and now I'm faced down the barrel of having to do it, where do I start?

The starting point, it's not a very sexy answer, but the starting point comes from knowing what you want to achieve. And if you've got that clarity and focus, and this is where the term strategy comes into it, because before I started talking about networking strategy about 10, 12 years ago, People talked about skills. How do you work a room? Susan Marone's famous phrase. But we didn't talk about why we were in the room in the first place. And that's where you start. And if you have that clarity, then it becomes easier. It becomes more natural. Yes, you might need to, if you've never been to a networking event before, you might need to understand how to find it and navigate that. But understand why you're going in the first place.

I like that. That's good advice. So basically what you're saying is, you know, don't worry about the skill of doing it. Start off with a plan, why you're trying to do it. And then obviously you've got to work on your skill on how you do it afterwards. But start with the plans, what you're saying.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

You are a networking genius.

I knew that.

Yeah. On the theme of being a genius, let's— again, I want to help as many people as possible. We are in an unprecedented time and it's pretty challenging. It's pretty hard for people to network when you could network. What the hell do you do when you can't physically meet someone? How the hell do you network then?

Well, there are obviously a lot of opportunities online. I'm not a huge fan of online networking events which do exist because you can't engage in one-to-one small talk as easily, you know. So what you tend to have is 2 or 3 extroverts hogging a conversation on Zoom and all the introverts staying quiet and listening to it and feeling a little bit lost. So, the ones that are doing it well are using breakout rooms and so on to create some smaller group conversations. And if you can get into that environment, that's fantastic. But engage more on LinkedIn. You know, LinkedIn isn't just about, as we, you know, we keep coming back to LinkedIn, it's not just about popping up your profile, but engaging the content there, put out some thoughts, put out something that will engage people to answer. And it's not just LinkedIn, it's Facebook, Twitter to a lesser degree, perhaps Instagram, and start conversations. Go and see what other people are posting in your newsfeed and engage with them and do that. And then the other thing is that people are open to one-to-ones on Zoom and Teams and Webex.

Are you finding that it's easier to get people because they're kind of at home right now, so they're more willing to say yes to a one-to-one? You find it?

Yes, to a degree. I think business is ramping up again and people have got Zoom or Teams fatigue. So I think you have to be conscious of that. What people interestingly seem to be responding to more positively than for a long time is phone calls, because we're so sick of staring at a screen.

We're going back to the old-fashioned times. We're going to be sending letters to people next. That's a good idea. Okay, good advice there, Mr. Sage. I've got one last question for you, and I know George wants to talk to you about your music taste for some reason. So basically, here's my last question. If you think further down the line, if you had the chance to meet yourself later on in life, based on what you've done so far in networking, what would you advise yourself to do differently that would make the biggest difference? And I think this is a useful tip for people to know because you're a networking genius. Most people aren't. So now you've met yourself further down the line, what would you advise yourselves to do differently?

I think the biggest tip to myself, to me, and it wouldn't necessarily be a networking or relationship building one. A lot of what I've done has come naturally. I've enhanced it, of course, along the way. But I think the biggest advice I would give to myself is to understand what my business is going to look like as I grow it and at the point I either want to sell it or retire. Because if you understand what you want to develop a business into, you then build the foundations to meet that and everything else follows naturally. Instead, what tends to happen, particularly in a business like mine, is as a speaker, you start out by looking for speaking gigs or training gigs or whatever it might be. You write a book along the way and so on. And at some point along the line, when you're fully committed, you're really busy, you suddenly realize, I have no infrastructure for this all to hang off. On. And therefore I'm not building a business, I'm just keeping going, keeping going, keeping going. So for me, the biggest thing is to— it comes back to exactly the same advice as with networking generally, start with the end in mind.

I like it. I mean, the strategist in you comes through out the conversation today. Yeah, I'm going to hand you to George in a second, but just before I do, Andy, thank you so much for joining us on our first podcast. It's been really helpful. Your knowledge shines through. So thanks so much. I'm going to hand you on to George. Here's a tricky question coming.

And I'd like to echo Gary's thanks there. And great that also this sort of, this pilot episode was almost a product of networking as well. So it's all been, it's all been wrapped up quite nicely. So what Gary's talking about there in terms of music, which seems like a bit of an odd segue from the networking topic, but for every episode, for the guests that we're talking to, We're going to be getting a couple of tune recommendations, which we're going to turn into a playlist for people who are either, you know, preparing for an interview, getting ready for a meeting, whatever it may be. It doesn't have to be solely motivational. It can be sort of introspective or inspiring or, you know, whatever it needs to be. But we're going to get a couple of tune recommendations and I'm hoping that you might be able to do that. I know you're a bit of a muso yourself. So what would you like to add to our playlist, which is yet to be given a name?

Well, you asked me about this, uh, before, before we sort of came on online this morning, and my thought process first of all was my favorite two songs. But actually, I, I wouldn't put them in these— this category. They just happen to be my favorite two songs, which is, uh, Summertime by Ella Fitzgerald and, and Louis Armstrong, and Comfortably Numb by Pink Floyd. But they're more my reflective moments. So the next thing I thought, well, well, you know, and this will fit very much with what we've talked about. I'll ask my network. And I said earlier, post stuff that's engaging. So I put it out on Facebook this morning, and, and people love to be asked their opinion on stuff like this. So a lot of people have commented, and my God, my network has got cheesy taste. The first suggestion was Eye of the Tiger and Come on Eileen, then Don't Stop Me Now by Queen. I mean, you couldn't get more cliché. I'm sorry, Mark Lee.

Wow.

Then you've got some interesting ones— Psycho by Muse, Rage Against the Machine, and so on. I'm going to take one suggestion from, from that group because I love it. It's a brilliant song and I think it fits the bill. And then one that came to me at the very beginning when I thought about motivating and energizing. So we'll start with the latter because if, if I'm your first guest and this is your first song in your playlist, I want to start with a punch. So it's Pretty Vacant by the Sex Pistols. It's just pure energy, just pure energy. I love punk. It's just, you know, 3 minutes of a shot in the arm. You know, you can shout, you can scream, you can really get the endorphins going and get the adrenaline pumping, which is what you want.

Great choice.

And the other one, which wouldn't have jumped immediately to my mind, but it was on the list— it's a band I love, I've seen them live 2 or 3 times, they are superb. Um, but yeah, um, Pretty Vacant by the Sex Pistols and Moving On Up by Primal Scream.

How's that?

Right off your playlist.

Sounds perfect. We might include Comfortably Numb and what was the first one you mentioned as well?

Summertime, Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong.

Lovely. Yeah, we might include all 4 of those with your permission.

Great choices, Andy. You are awesome. Thank you so much for joining us today and looking forward to seeing you soon.

My pleasure. Thanks for having me on again.

Okay, Gary, that brings us our very first episode of The Company Doctor to a close. It's been a terrific chat and great to hear Andy's views earlier and talk through some of the key elements of modern-day networking. But before we go, I'm going to ask you— I'll probably do this each episode— I'm going to ask you if you could give us 3 or 4 takeaways around the topic that we've been discussing, in this case networking, that people can pocket and use out there in the real world. What would they be?

Yeah, I mean, I was thinking about this, you know, what are the 2 or 3 things that will make the biggest difference? And these are the ones I would recommend. We've covered quite a lot of ground and Andy's given us some great ideas. And out of those things, I think the first one is you've got to have the motivation to do it. And what I mean by that is, what is your reason for networking? And try to find something that will continue to motivate you. The second one is preparation, because if you just rock up and think it's all going to be okay, then you're missing an opportunity, I would say. So preparation is massively important. Think about the company and the person. And I never go into a meeting without having done it. The third one is frequency. We've got to do this on a regular basis. So if you can't commit much time, then just do it often, but not very much. You're better off saying, I can do 2 or 3 a week or 1 a week, whatever it is, but just do that and stick to it. And that will really help you because once you've got into the swing of this for that time, it will work. And finally, don't think about yourself. Think about the person. Add value to them, not to you. It's not about you, it's about them. That's what I would say.

Fantastic. Well, thank you very much, Gary, and thanks to you all for listening. This has been the Company Doctor Podcast, the first episode of the Company Doctor Podcast, and we'll see you again next time.

The Company Doctor Podcast with Gary Gamp and George Collode. Why not subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts? Leave a review on iTunes if you have enjoyed this episode and find out more at TheCompanyDoctor.com.