Out of work, what next? With mindset strategist and business coach Louise Danielle #2

After all, all art is experience. Hello and welcome to episode 2 of the Company Doctor podcast. I'm George Cloade, and as ever, I'm joined by the company doctor and font of all knowledge, Gary Gamp. In this episode, we're discussing confronting unemployment and providing some bankable advice for anyone who's found themselves out of work. Sadly, for a growing number of people, this is becoming a very pertinent issue, and so we've decided to split this topic over 2 episodes. Luckily, Gary is here to guide us all through it. Gary, hello and welcome.

George, very good to be on episode 2. What a great response we had from the networking episode.

Yeah, I mean, I don't want to say people have been saying it's the best thing they've ever heard, but it hasn't been far off response-wise.

So modest. I love it. Confidence. And we've set ourselves up for this one, right? So we've got to be better.

Exactly. Yeah, we have. Yep. Big time. And as Gary says, we have had a terrific response. So thanks to everyone who has listened so far. You can continue to listen to future episodes by subscribing at thecompanydoctor.com, but we'll do some more plugs for that throughout the episode. We're here to talk business. Yes. What exactly that entails, Gary, but perhaps you can take us through what lies ahead.

Yeah, so the topic today, as you've said, is Out of Work, What Next? And in this episode, you know, it's obviously from a timing point of view, it's an important topic that we wanted to cover. It wasn't the original plan actually to cover this now, it was later in the series, but there's kind of 3 areas. If you found yourself out of work, then we want to help you. As much as we can. If you're at risk of being out of work, we want to get you prepared. And if you're thinking of moving on because you're feeling it's time for a change, you know what, we're going to help you too. So that's what we're planning to do today.

Yeah, sounds fantastic. Yeah, in the only way that we can. So you sent me— for those of you that won't know this, and it's probably almost all of you— Gary sent me a a little handwritten note of fairly cryptic directions.

You're giving away the tips now of what we're doing behind the scenes.

Yeah, and it was, uh, I was left to interpret them as I will, so I've done my best here, but that's the way it's worked. I should also say that we're going to be joined by Louise Daniel later on, who's going to be our sort of expert special guest. More on her later. For the time being, Gary, perhaps we can just start off by talking about What's the first thing that someone who, for whatever reason, has found themselves out of work or has elected to leave their job, what's the first thing to do? What are the things not to do?

Well, I think the first thing to do, you'll get used to this with us now, is not going to be obvious. The first thing to do is don't do anything. Just please don't do anything. I think what tends to happen is that there's a bit of shock, panic, or if it's intentional buyer's remorse or whatever it is. And then we kind of launch into action and I don't want you to do that. Okay. Have I surprised you by this?

A little bit, yeah, because you would assume, and what I would certainly do in this scenario is that I might sort of mildly panic and start calling everyone that I know. And, you know, we talked about networking in our previous episode. I would probably start reaching out to their work and begging them for help. And you're saying do nothing.

Well, do nothing and definitely don't beg people for help. It's going to work too much. Well, you can try, but they'll just buy you a cup of tea or something. So the reason I'm saying don't do anything, I don't know if you remember those cartoons where someone's about to run and there's like a suspended animation thing where their little legs are going around, but they don't actually move yet. Have you seen that?

Oh yes, I know exactly what you mean.

Exactly. I just want people to do that. And the reason is it doesn't matter if you wait just a little bit, you're going to get a better chance of doing the right thing. Whereas if you act with your emotions, you're less likely to do the right thing. That's always trying to say, just stop for a minute. Suspended animation is probably the right word for it.

Mm-hmm.

And give ourselves time to work out what we're going to do and how we're going to do it. That's all I'm saying.

Okay.

Yeah.

But like Wile E. Coyote, wasn't it? Who would sort of run off the edge of a cliff and the legs would keep going and then they would just—

Exactly. And there is a sound effect there, but I'm not going to do it. There's definitely a sound effect in there somewhere.

Maybe we can add it in post-production somehow.

I think so.

Yeah.

So, so, so really the, the bit I'm trying to get to is, is something I call changing your appraisal of yourself, because what happens is the immediate reaction. It's a bit like if you've ever cooked a steak and you don't let it rest, it kind of contracts, it kind of tightens up. And that's what we do. If you're in this situation, you'll feel less likely to cope because you'll kind of feel like you're on your own. It's like, oh God, what are we going to do? And where do I get started? And all the stuff you said at the beginning, it goes through your mind. And in order to change your appraisal, if you give yourself time to think, then you'll be in a better position where you'll be able to cope because you're going to think through logically what to do and how to do it in a better way.

Okay, so give yourself a bit of time to sort of reassess the situation, no panicking.

Exactly. So that's the first thing. So the first thing to do is not do, is not do anything.

I think that's, well, it sounds like easy advice. It sounds like, you know, an easy one to do, but actually I can imagine it's pretty difficult to just force yourself to take a minute and assess what's going on. So once you have, once you're sort of, you're in a sort of slightly calmer mindset, where do you go from there?

Well, so the first step is an easy one. The second one is, do you remember Superman?

Yeah, great references, by the way. We've got cartoons, Superman, steaks, all within the first 6 minutes.

I'm trying to, it's obviously a serious topic, but I just want to kind of get things that people remember. So Superman used to have something called superpowers. Remember superpowers?

Yeah.

And then he also had the kryptonites.

Yeah, which was what would slow him down or weaken him.

The stuff that weakens you, the stuff that gives you your superpowers and the things that, that weakens you. And yeah, what I want people to think about. So yeah, there's probably two halves of what I'm going to cover. And thankfully Louise is going to do a very important part because she's going to talk about mindset. And there's a big topic around mindset that we really want to cover with people because it's really important. But the two halves are, I want to stop and think and plan and think through the strategy of what you're going to do. Bit like last week where we were talking about, last month, the strategy of networking. It's the same for getting back into work or changing a job or whatever. It's like having the time to think it through. So the first half is going to be about that. And then the second half is kind of putting into action on the doing bits that you want to do at the beginning.

Okay.

So the superpowers is this. So think about a time when you were in your job and you were so good one day, you were kind of in the zone and you went home and you went, you know what, I was so good today. You ever thought that?

Has that happened to you? Amazingly, it has. No, it's a wonderful feeling, isn't it? You get home and you think, I absolutely nailed it. And yes, they don't happen all the time, but when they do, they're really the days to remember, aren't they?

'Yeah, I'm like so good at that, that's my thing.' And what tends to happen when we're in our jobs is that, you know, we may have less of those moments, but there are days where we have it, we just don't think about it. This is a chance to step back and think about what you really like doing and what you're really good at doing. And also you're thinking about your kryptonites, you know, the things you're not very good at, you don't like doing. I'm not saying you can get the job where you get all the nice things and none of the bad stuff, but why not take this as an opportunity? Now, to be honest, I was working in corporate life for many years and, you know, I was in a situation where, you know, I was getting so frustrated at work, it drove me to go and leave and work for myself, which is something I always wanted to do. So I think it sometimes creates an opportunity to do something that you always wanted to do but didn't get to do. Right. Let me ask you a question. What was the— What was the ideal job for you when you were younger and you told your parents, when I'm older, I'm going to be— what was it?

I actually used to tell them that I was going to be Prime Minister, apparently.

Did you? We need one. We need it.

Yeah, I was aiming high.

You still up for that?

Still available. Yeah. I mean, I keep sending them my CV, but I haven't heard anything yet.

I think you'd be a good Prime Minister. You certainly look the part. Well, I wanted to be an astronaut. Can you believe?

I can believe.

Oh, you can? And then I wanted to be a pharmacist, but then I realized that you had to kind of do biology and look at blood, and that put me off, so I didn't do it.

You're quite squeamish, I remember.

Yeah, a little bit. And I also remember, and I'm, you know, I'm going to get to the point in a minute. I remember when I was at school, I went to a careers advisor. Do you ever do that?

Yes, I did.

And this is no disrespect to career careers advisors, of course, but I thought my careers advisors told me that I should be a florist because I was quite creative. Yeah, exactly. It was a bit of a shocker, really, seeing I had nothing to do with any of those sorts of things. And then I thought, well, my careers advisor gave me advice, but he's a careers advisor. So we end up, you know, when we're younger, we kind of know what we want to do. And then by the time we can go and do what we want to do, we don't do it. And so we might end up in a job just through a step of events. So, you know, and for a few numbers of people, they're doing the job that they always wanted to do and they want to carry on doing it. Right. So there's kind of those areas. But focus on your superpowers. So this is my advice. Write down a list. If you don't even know what kind of job you want, write down a list of the things you love doing and your strengths, things that you're really good at when you're in the zone. That's you in a nutshell. And write down your kryptonites, the things that are going to slow you down and zap your energy and they really aren't you. That's a bloody good starting point to get to decide what you want to do. Because this, I think this is a chance, don't you, that you could, you could switch routes, do something else. You're at a little bit of a crossroads.

I agree. And you hear it a lot, you know, in the face of sort of adversity, whether it's being made redundant or whatever it may be, whatever sort of sudden challenge or whatever difficult hand you're suddenly dealt. A lot of people from that end up turning their lives to something or turning their careers at least to something which they always wanted to do or something which they're better suited to or something which they much much more enjoy. And I know quite a few people who've been in that exact boat and, you know, they don't suddenly sort of live the life of Riley and have the best times of their lives because that's, you know, we're not peddling perfection here, but, you know, it's certainly a perfect time to take stock and think, actually, am I going down the route that I always wanted to, or is there something better? Exactly.

And for me, you know, you and I, we always wanted to be hairdressers. We could have done that, right? So it's a chance to seek out that new challenge. And actually, I don't know if you've noticed, I've got 3 examples of people that have taken the situation that we're in right now and done something amazing. Amazing, A, because they're taking the initiative, and B, because they're making money at it. And, you know, they were brave, to be honest. They were not— we had someone come around the other day, a couple of guys that are surveyors, and they got made— one got made redundant, one got furloughed. So they decided to set up a pizza business. Knocking on people, driving into people's drives down the road and providing freshly cooked pizza in your drive. Fantastic idea. They bought the van, they'd never done pizzas before. I did get a few tips off them myself, to be honest, for my next pizza.

I'm surprised you weren't giving them tips, actually.

Well, I was. I'm a bit like that, aren't I? I was actually saying, well, you know, what are you using on the base? And, you know, how does that work? And, you know, it did go that way. But so that's one example. And, you know, they were called Social Dough, which I thought was a great name, a little bit of a shameless plug for them. The second one was there was a bunch of marketing guys that got furloughed and they said, and as they were furloughed, they weren't allowed to earn money. So they set up a company called Not For Long, not for long. So they were offering free work on the basis that they'd hopefully pick up some work afterwards. What a great idea.

Yeah, great. Very proactive.

And a third example, a friend of mine's son has been a chef in some very distinguished places, was doing home supper, dinner parties, and decided to pivot by doing delivery during lockdown. You know, it was amazing. He was doing more delivery on the weekends than you would be able to fill covers in a restaurant. What a great initiative, right?

Okay. Superpowers and kryptonite, you figured those out, you figured out what your strengths and weaknesses are. What's the next step? How do you go about sort of taking this newfound sort of sense of knowledge to market, I suppose?

Well, now you've got your pants over your trousers with your superpowers.

How did you know?

You got to show them off. You got to influence with a bit of impact. By the way, don't wear your pants over your trousers. It's not a good look. Not you personally. But this is important. I mean, on a serious note, this is important stuff. So you've got to give yourself the best chance to succeed. And I think it starts with mental toughness. That's what I'd say.

Mental toughness.

Okay, maybe you're confused by this.

Well, make it elaborate, maybe expand a little.

You seem to be confused by what I say, George. I get it. Yeah. So mental toughness is— and by the way, we're fortunate we've got Louise on the show later and she's going to talk about mindset, which is really important and one of the fundamentals of being good at this. But mental toughness is connected. But It's about preparation, resilience, control, and obviously execution. And what I mean by control is in these situations, there's a chance that we're feeling out of control. If someone's kind of pulled the rug underneath us, maybe, and that throws us off balance and makes us out of control. Mental toughness is about how you get back in control and have the resilience and preparation that goes with it. So that's the first thing I want to say.

And how do you— are there any sort of tips? And, you know, as you said, Louise might cover this, so we don't want to step on anyone's toes, but are there any quick sort of simple ways of, I suppose, strengthening yourself mentally, toughening yourself up a bit?

Yeah, there is, and I'm going to give you an example in a second, but I think the goal is to control the uncontrollables. Wow. Yeah, exactly. We're going to come back to that, but let me give you a little story. So let's just imagine, I know you don't do the lottery. No. And why would you? It's a chance in a million, a million to one chance, you know, more chance of getting struck by lightning and it doesn't cost a pound. But anyway, Say that you did do it and you won £300,000, George.

Yeah.

And it came to your house and you've got it in your hands now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I am overjoyed. I am feeling pretty, pretty damn good.

Yeah. Okay, cool. And obviously, you know, when you're happy, you probably want to share it with someone that you know, maybe. Yeah.

Oh yeah, sure.

Yeah.

I'll give you a call.

Yeah. So you've got the £300,000 and now you need to go and get another job. How are you feeling?

Feeling pretty confident, I imagine. I imagine with that in my back pocket, I'm capable of anything.

Okay, well, the question is what— well, good. The question is why. What's the difference if you've got the £300,000 in your pocket or if you don't have the £300,000 in your pocket?

Yeah, it is. I suppose you've got a bit of a safety net, haven't you? I suppose you've got a bit of a— you feel a little bit more confident. You feel like, you know, it doesn't matter if 'If I'm rejected,' or, 'It doesn't matter if I don't get this job because I've got this big old safety blanket made of £300.' £300,000. £300,000 for me wouldn't do it.

Yeah. And basically that's what I want people to think about is if you had genuinely had the £300,000, the way you would approach it, the confidence it would give you in the way you behave should be exactly the same if you didn't have it. I know it's not easy. It's easier to say than do, right? Now let's say you've gone for lots of interviews and now I tell you you don't really have the £300,000 actually. Yeah. You know, what's actually changed? Nothing's changed, right?

Shouldn't make a difference, should it? No, you're right.

So a little tip here, and by the way, I really appreciate that this is easy to say and not easy to do, but this is part of the mindset and Luis is going to cover it. I call it go-to-town money. If I genuinely had '300,000, 50,000 in the bank, I'll feel more confident.' If you can go there mentally, then it gives you half a chance. And it's kind of linked back to that control, you know, controlling the things that you can control. You've got to get back in control and then learn and move on. That's the best way to be in control, is to face where you are, deal with the things you can deal with, and then you've got to move on from it because you can't affect the things you can't affect.

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? Because I think that on the same vein, not necessarily jobs, but for things that I've gone for in the past, let's say, if I haven't really been sort of obsessed, if I hadn't really, really cared, if I've gone in there thinking, actually, you know what, if this doesn't work out for me, no big deal, I can take it or leave it. Those have been the ones that have gone the best, hands down, every single time. So I suppose it's that same feeling, isn't it, of being like, well, it doesn't matter if this works out because I've got £300,000 in the bank. But if you can work on that and make that be a bit more of your sort of your mindset going into all of these things, and that's certainly going to help, isn't it?

It will definitely help. Now, I've got to counter that because you don't want to go in laser fair, put your feet up on the desk and go, you know what, I don't need this. Yeah, don't care. Just don't care. So if you want to give it to me, fine. No, it doesn't work. So, you know, this is about influencing with impact. So the first thing is, you know, get your get your head in the game, I guess, is the first thing. The second thing is that you want to get to what I call warm contacts. It's going to sound pretty awful.

Yeah, that's the last thing I want.

It sounds awful, doesn't it? But you want to get to a warm contact. What that means is that there's someone who's got some vague connection to you, that you're not cold. And so it's either through a friend. Now, if you think of an industry that you're interested in going into, for example, and you may or may not know anyone off the top of your head that's in it, find someone that does know. Someone in it, because I've always given— I'd much rather give a job to someone that got recommended by someone else, even if they're probably not any good at their jobs. You don't know, right? But for some reason, when someone says you need to check out George, he's a good bloke, then I'm more likely to listen than if George contacts me cold.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. That works across the board, doesn't it? It's the same, I suppose, you get those things about people selling their house and they only want to do it to people that they've met and they like. And I suppose It's a similar sort of psychology, isn't it? It's like, you know, if you're giving someone a chance, you want to do it because it's been recommended by someone who you like and respect.

Exactly. So that's why I call it warm contact. So the best situation you can get in when you're looking for work is to find a warm contact. Now, it doesn't mean if you apply for things through LinkedIn or directly that you won't get them, you will, but you're competing with a much bigger group. And even if you are going directly, if there's a way you can find someone that works in a company, I've done that recently for someone who was going to work in a company where I knew the sales director. I was happy to call the sales director and recommend them because they were good people and it was my reputation. But I'm not saying they got the job because of me, but I think it helps.

Certainly. So worth doing a bit of research into people in the similar industry who you may know who could put in a good word for you.

Definitely. Or someone who knows that industry or knows some of the people. And again, it's just about networking. Go back to episode 1, but this is more vital than ever to go back to networking. And then the next thing is I want to talk about the CV, because when you do eventually apply for jobs, then you want your CV to count. And A, you've warmed someone up so they're not cold to you, but also they're not going to read your CV, to be honest. Sorry to say that. Does this surprise you? Well, they kind of read it, but they're going to glance at it. I don't know if anyone, if you've hired anyone recently, but the truth is we're all busy. By the time, you know, in the old world when they turn up physically, by the time they turned up, we were just about looking at it as we're going up the stairs. People are too busy, they don't have time to look at it, and they'll look at it at the last minute, and they don't have the time to read long, boring CVs.

Okay.

And also, I don't think personally, this is just me, I don't think it's a good idea to make your CV look so professional that they realize that you didn't do it yourself.

Yeah, yeah, that's fair enough. And they would know, I think, from me, without a single designer's bone in my body, and my CV looks great.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying make it scruffy, but I think, you know, make it look good enough, but make it real and make it you. And then the other thing is, and I'm saying this carefully, you need to align your CV to the job, not by lying, but by calling out the things that they're looking for so they can find them.

Right. I've often wondered this, so this is good. This is good to know. Yeah, it's worth sort of just tailoring your CV to suit the job application. I mean, it makes sense.

So I've been working with someone recently and I recommended that there was 3 types of jobs that were similar but not exactly the same. So I said, just do 3 CVs. So when you're applying for that type of job, that goes in the top. Make sure you bring that out because that's what— I'm not saying you're making things up. That's not what I'm saying., but you do need to bring to people's attention so they get to see it. They can't find it through your— they're not going to get past the first page, to be honest. They'll look at the top and they'll look at the bottom and flick through. I mean, I'm being disingenuous to people, but generally it's not for bad reasons. It just gives you a better chance.

Are you suggesting then not to worry, not to spend too much time on the CV, make it appropriate for the job that you're going for, but don't go crazy trying to perfect it?

Well, at some level, but make it impactful because they are going to see a lot of CVs. So make it professional looking and succinct. Don't waffle on about, you know, when I was a boy, I went out in the garden, you know, that kind of stuff. Yeah.

Okay.

I mean, you think of it, look through the lens of yourself. If you were reading it, would you be impressed by it? If the answer is yes, good. If it's not good enough, then have the presence of mind to make it better. Don't be lazy on it because it's too important. So I don't want to say not too light, but definitely have different flavors so you can pull out the— so look at the job description or the advert and pull out that, use their language in it.

Okay.

So pull out the language of the person that's written it, because that's what they're looking for. They're looking for someone, ah, you've got blue hair and three arms. I was looking for that.

So a bit of familiarity with the area that you're applying. Correct.

But you know, just that you're calling out what they're looking for. Again, it's not— I'm not faking it. It's just generally you're trying to help them join the dots, really. That's what I'm trying to say.

And I suppose you want to get your foot in the door, don't you? You want to get onto that next level, which will be the face-to-face interview, which I'm sure either, you know, today or in a future episode we'll be covering. But you just want to make sure that they, you know, you get in front of them so you have that opportunity to dazzle them face-to-face. Exactly.

Yeah, your job is not to sell yourself. People say sell yourself. Yeah, your job is to sell yourself when you— at the appropriate moment. At the moment, you just need to get an interview. That's all you're really trying to do. Okay, so think of it that way. Now, you know, so you've got, you've got £300,000 in your pocket, or you've got your go-to-town money. Yeah, you've got your mind in the right place because you can't control the uncontrollables, and you're fine-tuning it. One other thing I would say is if you don't have experience in a certain area, you need to get it. So for example, if you want to be a writer, then do some freelance if it gives you experience, because if you go and meet someone and you don't have experience, they're not going to give you the job. So if you don't have experience in an area you want to get into, then you need to get some.

That's great, isn't it? Because I think a lot of times people will say, oh, it's not fair because they want people with X amount of experience. And what you're saying is just rather than complaining about it being unfair, just get that experience in other ways. So, and I think freelancing is a great way of getting that in a fairly quickly way, a quick, quick sort of manner.

Or work in a job that is below the job you want, but it gets you in the right direction because it makes you an apprentice for that work. So it's just, you know, if you generally want that job or that area, then, then do it. If you don't, then don't. Right. But that's kind of the goal.

Fair enough. Cool. And what's the final sort of piece to this puzzle then?

Okay, the last one, and you know, similar theme for me, which is about game plan again, because I think the most important thing is to take action. And interestingly enough, the sweet spot of taking action is quality volume, I would say. Okay. You know, I know lots of people that, yeah, and some applications are really difficult and long-winded, I get it. But some people will say, you know, I've interviewed, I sent out 2 CVs this week. Oh, well done. You know, it's not enough. You know, there's a, you need to, you need to build a, it's got to be a critical mass. Yeah. You know, I spoke to someone yesterday who built a mail merge, whatever that means, and wrote a very clever letter in the sweet spot that he was in. So he did 3 versions for these 3 different CVs. And sent out 100 applications. Now, I'm not suggesting you need to go mad like that, but don't just send out 5 and hope it's going to be okay and be annoyed that it didn't happen. Because again, your mind won't be in the right place because you'll be like, you're needy now because you need those 5 things to happen. Whereas if you send out 100, you don't. Yeah, we do, but you just need 1 out of 100. So you increase your chances, but not blindly. Yeah, but not blindly sending them out and hope, you know, it's not like a lucky dip or something. But taking action in your sweet spot, but with volume, but to a warm contact.

Yeah, there's that word again. And I think also, as you said, being clever about it, as whoever it was you were speaking to yesterday, being slightly clever in the letter is a huge, you know, that helps massively. I think standing out somehow in that initial application.

Yeah. Now, you don't need to do, I've seen this as well, you don't need to stand outside with a sandwich board. Or anything like that. Some people really are trying to make it— or you don't need to send them a video. You could do, you could be really wacky. I don't think it's necessary. I think the most important thing is that your two worlds need to collide with your warm contact and the connection to the language and the job they're trying to fill. If you've got a warm contact and it looks like you're aligned, you've got a much better chance of making a hit.

Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Makes perfect sense.

So trying to increase the win rate of you getting to a meeting. You're not trying to sell them, you're trying to get to that interview. So what you're really trying to do. So then it's an obvious thing that they definitely need to see you in the mix. That's what you need.

Yeah. And there's no shame, as you say, there's no shame in sending out a huge amount of applications. If anything, it increases your chances.

Exactly. Now, if you're in a situation where, you know, your job isn't at risk, but you want to get out, it's exactly the same for me. It just gives you your go-to-town money is the fact that you're still working. So if you're still working, then have the presence of mind to start. If you genuinely want to move, start looking, get yourself a plan B, get some options because you're in a position of confidence. You've got a girlfriend while you're trying to get another one. That's a bit of a hang-up from the last episode. Shouldn't go there.

But no, I do like that. I do like this idea of go-to-town money. I think if you can identify what it is that makes you confident and makes you able to go into these situations confidently, then that can just be massively helpful. And I suppose I've never really sat down and thought, what is it that I can sort of think about or rely on mentally when I'm in these positions? And yeah, as you say, potentially having a huge wad of cash is one, but sort of not literally. But then the other thing is, as you say, is if you've got a position of safety, like having a job, having that security can just do wonders for you.

Yeah. And I think the last thing I want to say is, you know, it's an obvious thing, but take action. So it's a natural thing to procrastinate because it's difficult and it's time-consuming. But if you've done all the planning and worked out what kind of job you want, what you like and what you don't like doing, then just give yourself the best chance by doing enough and doing it every day for however long it's going to take to get you where you need to get to. And don't be satisfied until you've got there.

That's why I recommend solid advice there, Gary, as always. Now, I promised a few more shameless, brazen examples of self-promotion. So here's another. If you are enjoying yourself, do head over to thecompanydoctor.com and subscribe for future episodes and to listen back through old ones. Now that that's over, we can turn our full attention to mindset strategist and business coach Louise Daniel, who's speaking with Gary about adjusting your mindset to deal with adverse situations.

Hey Louise, how are you? Thank you so much for joining us.

Hi, I'm great, thank you for having me on.

We're delighted to have you. The topic, as you know, today is about 'Out of work, what next?' and we thought what better person than to get you on the show today because you're called a mindset strategist and transformation coach, which I love. What a great title.

Thank you very much.

If you don't mind, I'm just going to dig into something because obviously I dug into your background a bit and the first thing that stuck out for me, and you're probably bored of hearing this story, I guess, but I think it'd be really useful for the people that are listening, is that you were homeless at the age of 17. Yeah. And I'm sorry to go straight to it, but, you know, hey, but the question that I wanted to ask you is when you were in that situation on a kind of a downward spiral, How did you get the presence of mind, I guess, to, to get out of that hole? How did you get the presence of mind?

Yeah, no, that's a great question. And it was actually sort of from the age of 14 to about 17, so, um, it was over the course of a period. And I think for me, you know, the shortest answer, um, I had an insight that completely changed the way I viewed myself and my life. And it was, it was I say it, I say it's simple because now when I look back, it seems really simple to me. But it was a thought of, wow, my life actually doesn't have to be this way. What am I doing? And that genuinely was the thought that began the complete transformation and change in my life because I was so stuck in my way of seeing things and thinking that the way I felt about myself and the way that the other people felt about me was true. And as a result, my world very much reflected that. And the moment I had an insight that there was another possibility, everything began to change.

Well, I think it's really inspiring, but really interesting and insightful, particularly for people listening to this. And then by the age of 21, that obviously led you to do what you did next, which is to set up this social enterprise helping young disadvantaged people. So tell us, how did you get the link? Was that kind of a kind of a giveback thing? How did you get from there? From being one to the other?

You know, the time period that I went through, through my whole kind of teenage years, really, and sort of even into early 20s was a really challenging time. And that insight really began to change everything for me. And it was when I was sort of 19, 20, I'd managed to get my life back on the straight and narrow. And it was my parents, actually, some of their friends were coming to me and asking if I could help with their a sort of child because they saw that they were exhibiting not great behavior and they didn't know what to do. And, um, and just other things that I was seeing in the community in terms of what was happening in particular with, with young people. And I knew what, what made the difference for me, and there was just something in me where I knew I needed to use the experience that I had to turn that negative into a positive to help other young people and families experiencing the kind of pain and inner turmoil that I'd gone through myself. So, um, it was very much like— it was such a passion that I developed, and I actually started volunteering for a position with the Youth Offending Team. Had to pretty much beg them to let me sit on there, um, because they'd not had anyone of my age and who had been through the system as a panel member before. And I didn't last in that voluntary role too long because it became very apparent to me that there was a huge gap in the system and the current system that we had, which was punishing sort of a lot of young people that had come through this system, was actually a flawed system. You know, it wasn't addressing the core root and the misunderstanding that they had about themselves and about their life that was causing the behavior. It was addressing the behavior. And so I very quickly decided that, you know, I wanted to do something different and make a difference to that. So that was, you know, what really started that journey for me.

Well, I mean, that's what I find so interesting. And actually, you know, I want to get to your, the nub, the golden nugget that you've developed that helps people in a second. And maybe this next question will kind of lead us to it. But if people are listening to this, they're either, you know, they've had the shock of being out of work without expecting it, or they're at risk or even thinking of moving to something else. But when you've had that shock and thinking of it from a job point of view, just to help some people that are listening. What's the best way to pick yourself up? How do you deal with the shock? You know, using your experiences that, you know, there's always someone worse off, right? You've had much more difficult challenges, I guess. But what would you advise?

Absolutely. That's a great question. And I've had a lot of shocks in my life. You know, the time when I was experiencing what I was, and then when I set up the social enterprise, I was in employment at that point. And then being in having the social enterprise and then moving to business, there's been a lot of shocks and challenges along the way. And the thing that has allowed me to navigate those, I say so well, I didn't navigate all of them well, but the thing that, the work that I do now and what's inspired me and allowed me to navigate those is a simple understanding that my, like we live in the misunderstanding that things that happen in the world create our inner experience. And actually what I realized was it was the other way around. It was our internal state, our internal mindset. That's what dictates our experience of the world, you know. And as a result of that, what that allowed me to do was to experience different emotions, feel the shock, the pain, the whatever, the turmoil that was happening at any given time. But also, I knew through the understanding that I had that our experience changes moment to moment. And in one minute you can be feeling pain and you can be feeling turmoil and stress and not knowing what your life's going to look like, you know, in the next day, in the next week, in the next month. But in another moment, you can have a new insight or something else can take your attention. And that feeling, that experience shifts into something completely different. And it's knowing that has what's allowed me to navigate things so well. Because I know that my, my experience of the world is an internally generated one.

And we spend time— are you saying you can control that roller coaster?

No, absolutely not. It's almost the opposite to that. It's like, I know that, you know, positive thinking often tells you to, you know, pick happy thoughts and think happy things. But actually, that's an impossible thing to do because nobody knows what they're going to be thinking in 10 minutes from now, let alone 10 days. But when you understand that with every new thought you have, you have a different feeling. So we are constantly living in the feeling of our thinking. And when we start to see that, you can see, you begin to see that actually the minute my thinking changes, my feeling changes. And that's not something that I need to control because when I know that my experience is telling me 100% about my psychology in the moment, I no longer need to be afraid of it.

Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, because I was watching one of your YouTube videos and you were saying external events harm us, but you believe nothing outside of you can harm you. Tell us about that.

Yeah, so, so on, on the face of it, it looks like the world is happening out there and then we, we get hurt by that. But actually, it's, you know, that there was nothing outside of us Things physically happen, like we can't control external circumstances no matter what we do. We have no control over what actually happens in the world. We have influence, but we don't have total control. But actually, inside of us, the things that we give meaning to, the thoughts that we think, that's the stuff that changes and that creates our experience. So with that being said, like, there are moments when people have lost their job or found themselves in a situation where they don't know how they're gonna pay their mortgage, how they're gonna pay their bills., and it feels really scary internally. It feels really frightening. But then, like I said a little while ago, you can be distracted by something, or a new thought pops in, and you're actually in a state of inner peace, or you're actually in a state of distraction, and you're not feeling that idea of the thing that could harm you in the future, or the thing that harmed you in the past. And when you, when you really begin to understand how experience is created, how stress is created, that actually it's not that there is nothing out there that can harm your inner psychology, because your inner psychology changes moment to moment based upon the thoughts that you're thinking and the stuff that you're focusing on.

Okay, so, so from a practical point of view then, if I've, if I'm at risk, let's say at work, what would be the top 3 things I should think of doing that will make the biggest difference?

Yeah, so one of the first, the first things to notice is the stuff that we focus on expands. So if we're, if we're focusing on an idea, a story of a future, of these things that might happen, that could, that are stressful, that don't feel great, we're going to experience more of that in the moment. If we're taking a moment to pause and focus on what is true right now, right now in this very moment, in this very second, am I being harmed? Am I being hurt? Often the answer to that question is no, but we spend so much time up in our head in the story and feel the feelings of that, that we think it's true. So, the first thing is just to pause. To pause and take a couple of breaths, because often what happens is when we're in fear, when we're in panic, we forget to breathe and our flight or fight system kicks into our body. So, we literally feel that, like we begin to feel the feelings of stress. But actually, if we, if we create what you call a pattern interrupt, if we do something different, such as pause and just breathe and center ourselves and bring us back to the present. Like, that really changes not only your psychology but your physiology in the moment. Okay. Another great thing that you can do is, um, listen to some music. Do something that's going to change your state and get you into a better place by focusing on something different. Music uplifts us. It changes how we feel. So that's another thing that we can do. Walk, physical movement, that's a great thing to change what it is that we're feeling in the moment.

And then what do I do next? So I've got, I've got my mind in a better state and I'm not sitting home worrying about things as much. Yeah, but how can I convert that positiveness or that energy or that mindset into— not into action yet because I don't, you know, we don't want to jump to that, but you're a strategist, so what would be my next step as a strategist?

Yeah, so the next step, once you've brought yourself into the present moment, you've dropped out of your catastrophe thinking of what could happen, and you're present right here, right now, the next thing to ask yourself is, what would I love to create? Like, we spend so much time in story and idea of what could happen. Very, very— like, it's very often— not often that we ask ourselves, actually, what do I want instead? We talk about what we don't want to happen, what we don't want to create, But what do you want? What would you love to create? So that would be your next question. The next step is to ask yourself some empowering questions. What would I love to create? And who would I need to be in order to create that?

I guess that gives some kind of energy and excitement, doesn't it? Because you're thinking about the art of the possible there.

Yeah, absolutely. You've shifted from the idea of like the negative stuff that you think could happen, from limitation to possibility.

I like that. Okay, I'm already feeling excited about it. So then I'm thinking about myself in the situation. So, uh, what would I do next?

Yeah, so the next step is, so once you've asked yourself, you know, what would I love to create? Who do I need to be? Because often what happens is we go, I don't want this thing to happen, I want something different, what do I need to do? And the answers aren't in the doing, they're in the being. And what I mean by that is, is we go, oh, okay, so I need to get another job, or I need to start a business, or I need to get some money somehow. Like, they're all doing things, but the stuff that you do comes from who you be in any given moment. So if you're being someone who's in a state of stress and panic and you go to do something, the thing that you do and the output that you get will be very different to if you're someone who's in a state of peace, connectedness to themselves, and inspired.

So more headless chicken, rabbit in headlights.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. By the way, just sorry to interrupt you, but when I looked at your video, I was looking at your bookcase and this is relevant to this conversation and I noticed you've color-coded your books. Is that to give you a zen, relaxed thing? What's going on there?

Yeah. So a couple of things. Like, number one, I love books. Books are my thing. Like, I love information. Like, I feel wealthy when I'm indulging in information and learning new things and new knowledge. And I love looking at my bookcase and it's a Great conversation. But to pick up on that, what you said about giving me zen, um, you know, our physical environments reflect our inner environments, you know. So that's another great thing that you can do is like when you look at your physical space, does it feel relaxing? Does it feel peaceful? Do you have things in your physical space that inspire and empower you, or is that chaotic and stressful as well as your inner world? That's another great thing that you can do is create your little zen space.

A lot of people listening to this are going, okay, this is all, it's really helpful, but they are still staring down the barrel of having to get a result at some point over time.

Yeah.

Is there some kind of action that they should be taking at some point that would get them in, you know, because their mind's in the right place, they've got the headspace right, what could they do at some point to take action?

Absolutely. So the first thing is the answer to that question of what would I love to create, Before you take action, be in the end result. And what I mean by that is, if you, if you knew that that outcome was possible for you to create, how would you be feeling internally? How would you show up in the world? And what action would you take? And then go and take that action. Live in that action regardless of what your external circumstances are showing you, because when we take, when we create this internal change, it sometimes takes time for the external world to show up. But if you remember what I said a little while ago, most people look at the thing that they need to do as opposed to who it is you need to be. And it's the same with how our world works as well. If we're looking outside of ourselves for the answers as to what is true about me and about what's possible for me, then that's— we're always depending on external circumstances. Whereas if you know that you are somebody that has resources within you, that has a vision within you, that has the ability to create that thing that you want to create, and you consistently put yourself in that end result, and then you go and take consistent action from that place, you're not relying— you're not constantly looking outside of you to see if things are answering the actions that you're taking. You're coming from a completely different place. So it's to show up and take consistent action regardless of what's showing up in your external world, and hold the faith that you've got what it takes to create what it is that you want to create in the world.

Well, I like that because that brings out the strategist in you, I guess, because you're in more of a long-term game, which stops you panicking to do things you shouldn't be doing. I really like that. I've got one— this is so helpful, Louise, and I think it gives people a chance to reflect and think in a slightly different way, which I really like. I've got one last question for you, and then I'm going to hand you on to George, who's going to talk about your music taste, which is very interesting. But here's my question. Thinking back, knowing what you know now, and obviously, you know a lot more now than you did then. What would you have done differently?

Biggest thing that I would have done differently was to not punish myself so much. You know, we're really good at beating ourselves up, and, um, and, and I think that I spent a lot of time thinking that I wasn't going to be okay and that I wasn't okay and that there was something wrong with me and that my whole world was going to collapse. And looking back, I would have, um, you know, moved forward knowing what I know now, that actually we are always okay. And when we have an idea, you know, when we look at what the, the bigger vision is for what we want to create, it's like holding on to that but also doing what we need to do in the day-to-day with trust. Um, I think that's what, that's what I would have done differently. It would have been to move forward with more faith and trust in myself, knowing that it will always be okay, especially when it looks like it's not.

I think that's great advice. I mean, I always say to my kids, you know, will it affect you 5 years from now? And if it wouldn't, then don't worry about it. I think it's great advice. Thank you, by the way. This has been really inspirational. I think it's, it's really refreshing to be able to stand back from the situation that people might be in rather than just go to the action and plan to get there. So thanks so much for joining us. Really interested to hear about your musical taste. I'm going to hand you on to George, but thanks so much, Louise, for joining us on this episode.

You're welcome. Thank you for having me.

It's been really inspirational, as Gary says, to hear your story and to hear your advice. I think it's been fantastic. Particularly what you were saying about music and the power of music to not distract us, but focus us and uplift us. And as you may know, we are doing a playlist based on this podcast, and guests are giving us a couple of tunes each episode that we're going to be adding to that playlist. I was hoping you might be able to give us a couple of recommendations.

Yeah, of course. Like I said, I love music, and it really does feed our soul. And for me, I've got such a broad taste depending on what mood I'm in and depending on what mood I want to create. So a couple of songs One of my real favourites when I want to feel really inspired is by Andra Day, and it's called Rise Up. It's a really powerful song. Great. And another one that I would say that is an absolute classic that I love to listen to is Let It Be by, obviously, Paul McCartney and the Beatles. And it's such a great song to just drop us back into the present moment.

Lovely. Yeah, great choices. We've got a great playlist already, I think, so far between you and Andy Lopata, who was with us last week. So thank you very much again to Louise. And if you found Louise as inspiring and interesting as we did, do visit her website, which is louisedanielle.com. But before we close the curtain on yet another smashing episode of The Company Doctor, Gary, have you got the 3 takeaways, or the 4 or 5, you know, it doesn't have to be 3, takeaway advice for people looking for a bite-sized version of what we've been discussing?

Let's do that. So here are my 3 takeaways, 3 and a half. The first one is stop, don't panic. This is an opportunity for you to decide what you want to do. This is a great opportunity. It might be a kick up the butt that you always wanted or not. Right. Second one is try and get a warm contact. Probably the most important thing you can do. And the biggest advice I would give you is find somehow through someone you know or some other way, other means, find a warm contact. It's your best opportunity. And the third one is If you do things right and you get a hit because you've done the effort, you put the effort in, then it's a numbers game, but not a blind numbers game. But it's a numbers game because you've done the work that makes a hit. There will be my 3 top tips, Mr. George.

Winner. Excellent stuff. Thank you very much, Gary. And thanks to you all for listening.

The Company Doctor podcast with Gary Gamp and George Collode. Why not subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts? Leave a review on iTunes if you have enjoyed this episode and find out more at thecompanydoctor.com.