The Change Survival Guide with Thierry Bujon de l'Estang #62

After all, all art is experience.

Hello and welcome to The Company Doctor. Today's episode is all about change. How to manage it, how to survive it, and in some cases, how to benefit from it. We're lucky enough to be joined by the hugely experienced Thierry Bougeon de Lestang from BNP Paribas, who's got a foolproof survival guide for anyone facing change at any level. Thierry, Gary, over to you.

Terry, welcome to the Company Doctor podcast. So great to have you on.

Great to be here.

I've been looking forward to this because the title, and timing's perfect, is called The Change Survival Guide. And I thought, who better than Terry to come on and talk about change survival? Because I think you're a really good guy to have on for that. So I thought maybe just to kick things off, Terry, it would be great if you could just briefly introduce yourself so everyone knows who you are and what you do.

So I currently work in banking as Chief Digital Officer for Global Banking at BNP Paribas. My career has not always been in banking because I basically started out in a cosmetics business, then went on to working in a startup in the years 2000. Doesn't make me any look any younger. Um, and, uh, then moved into banking where I've, uh, had a series of occupations, different operations, always linked to clients, to sort of modernization approach, relationship management, digital marketing. Communication, all sorts of things.

Yeah. And that's why I wanted to have you on, because I think you've got a great career that sort of demonstrates this. I've got loads of questions for you, by the way. So I was thinking about this, Terry. I think I've known you for over 10 years. Well, certainly a long time.

Yeah.

And I've seen you in a number of different senior roles as a bit of a mover and shaker at BNP, to be honest. So my question is, what does change mean to you based on what your past and how have you navigated the little change jungle?

High level. Well, Change is a fact of life. I think that, you know, life is all about change and it's all about, you know, things move. You know, you start out in one direction, you don't— life isn't linear, so you need to live with change. And I think my career in that sense was completely full of change all over the place because, you know, moving from marketing to then going into the tech business was a big change and it was a, you know, material change. And moving back from the tech business into markets and then into global into relationship management, has always been full of change. And I think change is opportunity. That's the way I see it. I think it's an opportunity to grow, and it's an opportunity to discover new things. And if you like that, then change is fun. And that's what I always tell my teams. Change is fun. It can be—

I know.

It can be sometimes, you know, a little bit difficult, but there's a degree of difficulty to it. But change is fun, actually.

This is where we ask people, are you having fun yet? It's funny you should say opportunity, Terry, because the Chinese word for change, you probably know, is crisis and opportunity. Yeah. And I was going to ask you which one is for you, but you've answered that for me. So that's great. And you know, this survival guide, you know, from my experience, uh, people that are good at change or good at managing change, they kind of grab onto it and they take the initiative.

Yes.

What advice would you give someone during times of change for, you know, as an opportunity for personal growth, maybe?

The one advice I would give is be curious. Don't look at change as something that is going to be— obviously, it's difficult. Obviously, it's going to, you know, it's going to take you off balance. But, you know, if we were constantly on balance, we wouldn't be walking, right? Yeah, part of walking is being off balance. And I think being off balance is also a good time to adjust your way of thinking, adjust your way of acting. And it's also a great time to discover, keep your eyes open, and find what's next and what's the movement and get into that movement. A lot of people who resist change, and obviously I've met people who resist change, is because they have a hard problem with uncertainty. And obviously we all have problems with a degree of uncertainty, but some uncertainty can be mastered. And actually some uncertainty is good because it questions the way you work and it questions your belief in, you know, what's coming tomorrow. One of the things I always say when we talk about change programs or changing small things is always expect the unexpected. So expect to be positively surprised. Well, as people tend to say, always expect to be negatively surprised. I tend to say expect to be positively surprised and accept it too.

I like that. And as you were speaking, you know, you really talking about change paralyzes some people. From your experience, how do you turn that paralysis into action? Because it's easy to say, but not easy to do properly.

True. I think the first thing you need to do is to acknowledge that paralysis. And a lot of it is linked to people not necessarily understanding what's in it for me. You know, very often people see change as something coming from the top, which is imposed on them. If you don't give them the big picture and just say, you're going to have to change this to do this, but don't explain how that fits in a whole program or in a whole momentum or things that are going to happen overall because of technology, because of all of that. There's no reason for them to accept it except, you know, you— some— my boss told me to change, which is the worst thing for somebody to actually change. The last person they want to hear change from is their boss. So I think what you need to do is first of all acknowledge the fact that it can induce paralysis. The second thing you need to do is listen. And I always say to my teams when we talk about it, listen, explain, listen again, explain again. But every iteration needs to be different, meaning the iterations when you re-explain needs to take into account what you have actually been listening to. So if somebody says, oh yeah, but this is a huge change program and that technology is going to take away my job, which is often a resistance to change. The question is, how do you turn that into, let's talk together about the opportunity this is going to give for you to make an evolution of your job which is going to make it more interesting than boring, and get into that discussion. In the end, they will have to change, or change will happen. But if they acknowledge it and understand how it fits in the big picture, and also get a sense that they are being listened to, then it goes easier.

Now I think it's good advice and it kind of leads to the fact that what I think what you're saying is that people need to take the initiative. Yes. And I wonder if you're thinking back on your career, I know you went from perfume to banking. I'm sure it was more finesse than that. But what, from your experience, Terry, what can people do? Can you think of an example where you did take the initiative and it really helped in your career? You didn't wait for someone to give you that direction.

I guess every most of the career moves I made where I had the most fun afterwards were career moves where I took the initiative to get things moving. When I moved from cosmetics into tech, and I was, you know, having a nice career where I was, a lot of people looked at me and said, you're crazy, why are you doing this? I said, well, at the time it was, you know, think of this as dinosaur time, early 2000s, when, you know, and I was working with a very strong brand and One of the things that was intriguing me, it was the beginning of internet, is do you actually build a brand in the same way on internet as you would in, you know, normal stores and that sort of stuff? And I wanted to be part of that, not that I wanted to be part of the fun or the money or etc. There was this curiosity around it which was, which was leading me to, I want to try that, I want to be part of that experience. So that's, that's a typical example of something that got me moving. You know, I was talking a bit earlier about curiosity, that, that's part of it as well.

But so do you, do you recommend people do try and take initiative before they get asked to do something? I know everyone, not everyone feels comfortable, but is it kind of the right step, do you think?

I think it's a great step. I think, but, but you, in the same way, when you're taking the initiative and you're, everybody in your environment doesn't know why or what, then they're not going to be able to follow the initiative. Well, as if you explain why you're doing that then they'll be helpful in general.

Yeah. So it's all about having the right sort of communication. And as you were talking, you were talking about, you know, fear of change sometimes paralyzes people because they think, what it means to me, I think you said. Yeah. You're the head of digital. So here's an easy question, I guess. AI, friend or foe?

Uh, could be both. So you need to make it a friend. It could be a foe because Well, first of all, I don't think that everybody masters what AI does today. And this is, you know, a whole new set of technologies. I think it can do a lot of stuff. It can pick up the boring stuff and give you the opportunity to do the fun stuff. It can free up time. But you can't— I don't believe in what I would call non-monitored AI. It means you can use it for what it is, which is a tool, which is a productivity tool, which helps you get things done.. But I would never shoot out anything that comes directly from AI, not looking at it or not having some form of control or monitoring, because that's where the added value of your brain is. And as good as algorithms are, they will never have the, what I call, the crazy part of the brain, the creativity. And that's what makes human interactions fun and also reliable. So—

So you too, when you said crazy, you're looking at me. Yeah, on a wider perspective, what's the impact of technology on change in general?

It's a catalyzer of change. I mean, some of things that would have changed anyway are going faster because of technology. The second thing is it's also an enabler of change in the sense that it provides people with opportunity and tools to get things done in a different way and a better— and in a better way. And I think one of the key things about adopting technology It's not just doing what I call lift and shift. So you're going to do the same process, but you're just going to let the technology do the process or the boring part for you. It's a great opportunity to think about your processes and think about what you're doing it for, what are the roadblocks, and then how that technology can actually help you.

Yeah. So, so hopefully it's a change for good, but it, but it is in our lives and it's sort of accelerating it, it seems. And so looking back in your career, Can you, in your whole career, not necessarily where you are now, can you share an example where your organization, not you personally, but the organization you're in, failed to adapt to the change effectively and what happened as a result?

Yeah, obviously there are, you know, I don't know if I can pinpoint one typical example, but the fact is if you fail to adopt it when it becomes what I would call a market standard or communication standard or whatever, then you're suddenly racing against even more problems than you had in the past. Because in the past, everybody was working the way you are. You don't have the technology or you don't invest in the technology, then suddenly the hill to climb to continue to be competitive gets much steeper. I've had examples of this from either, you know, companies I've worked in or also competitors where you see that, you know, there's a technology race going on and it costs investment, etc. And somebody— and then suddenly you realize, you say, okay, Well, the technology is there, I've delivered, I'm fine, and then I move on to the next thing. The fact is, that's not true, because technology being in constant evolution, if you don't spend enough, you know, I mean, if you take, if you take your foot off the gas pedal, basically the car stops. So whereas you were in the race, then you're not anymore.

But don't you think people get a bit change-hardened? You know, it's like, here we go again, another initiative that someone's putting in place, and they They kind of roll their eyes and think, here we go again. Oh yeah. How do you overcome that inertia?

That's coming back to my point about explaining. There's another, there's another thing is when you're changing, when, when you're driving change or when you're implementing a technology, you're very rapidly the expert about that technology and you know everything that it could do and how it's going to do it, et cetera. What people tend to forget is what is natural for you as an expert. May be completely irrational for somebody in the day-to-day world. And if you don't take the step back and take— and, you know, I'm not known for being typically somebody who's hyperpatient and likes to redo things 3 or 4 times, but I know that I have to train myself all the time to take that step back and re-explain from where I'm coming from and why this is good and why this is happening, because then I tend to bring them along my rationality. Whereas in the beginning they were saying, yeah, but you're doing this, but why bother? I mean, we're fine as we are. Why do you want to change this? And if you bring them to the whole cycle and re-explain that and take the time to do it, even if you're an expert, even if sometimes you have the feeling that this is going to cost me half an hour and I could be doing much more fun stuff, do it, do it, do it, spend the time doing it.

And as you were talking, I was thinking about, because you're a particularly good communicator, I've seen you in action many times, I've had the fortune to do that. So as a leader, I can see how you'll be really good at getting the message across. But for people listening, if now this is a survival guide, communication's a problem generally. And the other thing is that during times of change, people batten down the hatches and they probably don't network very much either. So they're kind of in a bit of a silo. How do you, you know, from an employee perspective, how do you kind of stay connected to what's going on? And, and, and is networking important?

Networking is essential. Questioning is essential. There are no dumb questions. I think we have a common friend who says, you know, the good thing is bloody good questions. And I think there are a lot, there are a lot of questions, and you should never be afraid to ask questions because the simple fact of asking questions proves that you have interest. If you have interest, be it positive or negative, at least you're engaging in a dialogue which will lead to some exchange which will —if the guy on the other side is doing his work well—lead to a positive way of looking, or at least understanding what your perspective is. You should also never moderate what I call enthusiasm and the need to be enthusiastic about the change you're proposing. I think if you propose it and you look like, you know, somebody who's been carrying coffins around for the whole day, people generally have a hard time buying that what you're trying to tell them is a good idea. Well, if you express— and then that's where you need to be genuine about it— well, if you express your genuine personal conviction that this is good or that this is necessary, but not be stubborn about it, but really genuine conviction, people buy it, or at least people listen to it, which is a first step to buying it.

And in order to do that, do you have to create a sense of urgency? How do you heighten your message so people care?

By grounding it in everyday-to-day life, by grounding it into what people's job is, what their daily life is. So making it so that they can relate to that sense of urgency. For example, if you're working on something which is going to help alleviate the burden of, you know, if you look at chatbots, for example, the first chatbots, people say, yeah, chatbot's nice, but I don't want to be talking to a machine. But some companies did this really right, where the chatbot does it and says he's an assistant. And if he, and if the chatbot doesn't know, instead of turning you round and round in circles, say, let me get hold of my colleague here who will be better at it for me, then it works. That's where I come back to also the idea of no unmanned technology or artificial intelligence, always be there so that people also have the feeling that it's not because it's a bot or, or an artificial intelligence, which is giving you an answer, that that answer cannot be controlled or completed by a human being if needed. Okay. That's good advice.

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You know, because this is a survival guide, want to give people some practical things to go and think about. So what would you say the top 3 things someone can do to navigate during times of change that will make the biggest difference? You know, just from a starting point, things to look out for. 3 tips.

Um, don't do it alone is the first one, because If you are the one who is being changed, or if you are the one who is implementing the change, the fact of discussing and have somebody to share positive or negative feelings is important because it allows you to voice it. So that's the first one. The second one, make it real. So, you know, don't say the change comes from the top and that, sorry, I don't 'Yeah, I have no control over this,' because that's going to make it worse. So, you know, embrace the change as much as you can in order to come back to what I was saying, the genuine conviction that you have. So be an ambassador for what you're doing when you're a change agent. And the third one was a very small word that I mentioned in the beginning, which is listen. People don't listen today. Well, as if you listen really, there, there's a lot out there that is going to help you either make the change happen or embrace the change.

No, I like those tips. And then she said the third one, I thought it'd be interesting to get your take on this. Sometimes people, you know, maybe listen, but maybe they've got nothing to listen to because they might be in a situation where they don't have a good boss like you and they're not getting the communication, and therefore they've got nothing to listen to. What, what should people like that do in this survival guide?

Question. The opposite to listen is question. Go out there and ask a genuine question saying, okay, you're asking me to do this, why? And question again. But don't question with the idea to say, I want to risk this, why are you imposing this on me? Because I don't think that is a positive dialogue or that's inducing some form of constructive answer. But question the reality saying, okay, well, you know, I understand, but I'm afraid for my job. Or I'm afraid that this is going to put more work on me. Is this a time investment I'm going to do? How am I going to be accompanied to this? Am I not too old to embrace that technology? How many times have I heard people my age or even younger than my age, actually, which is even more worrying, telling me, yeah, but I can't play with that technology, et cetera. If I can get my parents to use ChatGPT, you can get anybody to use ChatGPT. And that's an example. But then make it fun. You know, saying, okay, we've got this old uncle around, how can I positively tell him that, you know, he's been here for 2 weeks? You ask ChatGPT to give you a script, and it's actually quite fun. So, so, so, yeah, use technology for the fun as well. I like that.

And do you think people should put themselves forward to help out? So if there's lots of stuff going on, should they volunteer their services, or is that a bit too much sucking up?

Help or hinder? Hinder, no. Unless you have a strong feeling that this is really bad and that you want to question the rationale of the change, which is a fair point, you're allowed to question the rationale of the change. Helping out, yes, of course. And often, you know, it takes, you know, a cup of coffee around the coffee machine when you see somebody struggling with something, saying, hey, can I help you for this? Or, or I say, I had the feeling that you were struggling. This is my catch on it. Um, so I wouldn't be that worried, or actually, this is quite an interesting opportunity.

So yeah, so good advice to get people to kind of volunteer themselves, volunteer themselves, raise their profile.

But a lot about— if you listen to everything that we've been talking about since the beginning, the key to successful change is communication. All of this is around communication and what I would call positive communication, meaning what I call positive means it has to be transparent. The people will resist change as long as they feel that there's a hidden agenda behind it. If you show there's no hidden agenda, or if you explain the agenda and that you're, you know, you're actually volunteering the ins and outs.

Yeah, I think it's because of what you said earlier, because a lot of people worry about what it means to them, so they join the dots and they're normally wrong, but they, you know, quite rightly will join the dots. That makes sense why they do that. And, and Terry, looking back in your career, which, you know, you've had a great, interesting career in different places at a senior level, Looking back on your career, would you have done anything differently knowing what you know now? If you kind of went back?

It's funny you ask that because I have kids who are also, you know, thinking about their careers and growing, and they're asking me the same question. Maybe I should have done a bit more planning. I wasn't having this as a cleansing session, but yeah, fine. Maybe I should have done a bit more planning, but then I think that if you're planning too much, you miss the opportunity. You miss the opportunity to be curious. So as such, no, I think that everything, you know, opportunities always pop up. And, you know, you were asking me, okay, what career moves made a difference, which are the ones that I created by volunteering it, or at least making things happen so that there's an angle to get there. It's all about curiosity. It's all about knowing what makes you, yeah, what gives you kicks. Yeah, uh, somebody once told me, you're a developer. I said, so, you know, I was, I was putting my candidacy out for a job. So, yeah, but no, you're a developer. We don't need a developer in that role. And I was thinking, actually, that's true. I get this, uh, sentiment of boredom if things become repetitive. So, you know, in that sense, I am an agent. Yeah, I need the thrust, I need the kick. I get, you know, I make mistakes like everybody else does. Sometimes I make big mistakes, sometimes I make small mistakes, but at least face them and engage. And as long as you're engaged, you're going to live whatever career you're doing. It's stay engaged. The moment you feel you're not engaged anymore that's where you need to run.

I agree. I think that's the key, isn't it? Because if you're engaged— because if you do nothing, you probably— things are going to change around you, aren't they? Yeah. So you might as well be part of it. At least you can shape it.

Maybe not maybe, certainly. When you're engaged, you shape it. You shape your career. You shape your work environment. I work in a team which is full of, you know, people of different ages, different nationalities. And, and the first thing I tell, you know, young recruits is please challenge me. The boss is not always right. In the end, the boss will need to make a decision, but as long as that decision isn't made, your opinion is as good as anybody else's, provided you have the right info to make that opinion.

It's good to hear that because my wife told me the same thing, but she didn't mean it. Yeah, so it's good to hear that from you.

Yeah, I actually mean it. And, and we have very lively discussions, uh, in the team with, you know, some senior people and some very junior people, and, and telling you, no, no, I don't believe— why are we doing this? What is that making sense? Or, or couldn't we do it that way? And if you're open-minded, then it's, it's actually great because you keep learning every day.

This is good. So have you ever been in a situation— you conjure up a thought now— where you were going down a certain path and you were pretty certain with yourself, but then someone questioned you and it made you change track slightly?

Not slightly, fully, 100%. Yeah, tell us more, um, without the detail, obviously. Well, you know, I've had it when working with my team on marketing campaigns, for example, where, you know, I come up with an idea saying we should do this, we should do that, and people tell me, say, no, we need to be more creative, or, you know, let's push it, let's push it further, let's take it further. And you look at it and you say that. In other cases, you know, with the example I was taking about saying you're the expert and sometimes you completely forget that the guy on the other side of the table doesn't have your background, your thinking. I constantly have that in my team with people telling me, hey, slow down, we need to bring it back to what do they know. What seems natural to you is not natural, so take it back. Yes, and then you completely change the path of— you were going the creative expert way and saying, and this is super cool, etc. And then you say, okay, no, all right, so You move it to another direction, which is, okay, this is what's going to happen, this is how we're going to do it, and, and then the positives. So, you know, don't take too many shortcuts. I have one, one or two people in my team who, who have that role, which is to think exactly opposite of the way I think. And I've always hired people with that mindset for that reason.

Well, I think it's refreshing for people to listen. So you're listening to a senior exec that does listen to input from others, so you can change the future by, by being brave enough to have the conversations, which I think is really important. Yeah. Okay. I've got 2 questions for you, Terry, and then we're going to get to your musical tastes. The first one is, you know, just kind of a bit of a thinking about what does the future hold and how does the, the future affect the way we might want to manage change in the future? I know we don't know what the future is, but just, you know, some thoughts about do you think the change will change in the future?

I think change is going to accelerate. Because of technology, because of things. And the only way to live that without too much fear is to be steady on your values and see how they fit in. And when something goes against your core values, then don't play along. I think the future is exciting. It's also very worrying. So if I come back and say, be in line with your values and then it will work, The second thing is, yes, there's a lot of anxiety because of, you know, global warming, etc., but just being anxious doesn't help. So think, you know, what are the small things, what are the things that I can do to take that anxiety level down for me and for my environment and for my kids? I spend a lot of time, you know, talking with my kids, you know, it doesn't need to be a serious conversation, but try to feel what the environment is, your environment is, in order to bring that sort of, you know, seniority, serenity, if you can, into it. Yeah, it makes sense.

It is, you know, you are level-headed, going— I think that makes complete sense, that advice. Okay, we've got the last question, then we're going to musical tastes. In the Survival Guide, if someone could only do 3 things— and I know they can't— what would the 3 things be that would make the biggest difference to them initiating change? Initiating change.

The 3 things to do to initiate change. Be empathetic. I think it's empathy towards the people who will be benefiting or victim of the change you're implementing is the first thing. And that comes back to my point about listening. Believe in what you're doing. It doesn't mean be a fanatic. It means believe what you're doing because that belief generates what I would call the positive hormones on the other side as well. So that's the second one. And the third one is because it's a survival kit and change is sometimes difficult. This one is going to seem completely off the rocker, is have fun doing it. Because if you're not having fun or you're not enjoying it and you're not laughing, it's going to kill you. It's hard enough. It's hard enough.

It doesn't kill you, makes you stronger, right?

As the saying goes. But it's hard enough to do. So if you're not having fun, or if you don't— if you don't have a team or people working with you with whom you can laugh, it's difficult. Brilliant, you've nailed it, Thierry.

We've had the Change Survival Guide in 30 minutes. And let's just quickly ask for your musical taste. So as you know, we have a playlist for our guests where we add songs that are kind of inspirational or important to them. One or two tracks that we can add to the playlist from Thierry?

Okay, I'll give you two very different ones. The first one would be, you know, we always have this joke with my father, which is what record would you take on a desert island? One of the records I would take is a record, very old record by Miles Davis called In a Silent Way, and the track on there to play is called Kind of Blue. Okay, nice. That's one, the jazz. And if I was to take A second one, I don't know why it's, uh, it's one that I listen to. It's a piece by, uh, John Mayer called Queen of California. It's got that change in rhythm, etc.

Yes, yes, yeah, perfect for this.

And by the way, one of the best recordings of it is the one during the Crossroads Festival, Eric Clapton's Crossroads Festival, uh, John Mayer's Queen of California.

Terry, thank you so much. You've absolutely nailed the inside track to change. Here's the Change Survival Guide. Thanks for coming on. It's been really interesting and insightful, and I really appreciate you coming on.

It was a great pleasure. Thank you, Gary.

Thanks for listening to this episode, and a huge thank you to our guest Thierry for joining us today. If you've enjoyed this episode, head to thecompanydoctor.com where you'll find more than 60 equally fantastic previous episodes, and you can also sign up for our newsletter coming in the new year. See you next time.