The Insider's Guide to Revenue Growth with CEO of Trunki, Rob Law MBE #3

After all, all art is experience.

Hello and welcome to episode 3 of The Company Doctor, the podcast that serves up practical takeaway business advice in an accessible and, I'm assured, thoroughly enjoyable way. I'm George Clode, and today The Company Doctor Gary Gamp and I will be discussing the concept of winning business and handling rejection. We're delighted to have have as our special guest, the entrepreneur and founder of Trunky, Rob Law, whose new book, 65 Roses in a Trunky: Defying the Odds in Life and Business, is out now. Without any further ado, Gary, hello. Episode 3, here we are.

Hey George, I was looking forward to this one. I think we're going to have a really good episode. Not that we haven't had good episodes, but this one particularly good.

I think so. This one especially good. Yeah, we've had a great couple of episodes so far. So thanks again for staying tuned, everybody. This is episode 3. And as Gary predicts, probably going to be the best one yet.

Are we going to say that every episode, you think?

Yeah, I think it's important to maintain that sort of potentially naive confidence that we have in ourselves.

Well, ironically, it's kind of part of this topic today, which is kind of part of your expectations and stuff. So if we expect it to go well, hopefully it will do.

Exactly. And we're talking winning business and handling rejection, which is a bit of an extension of last month's episode. Is that right?

Yeah, it's kind of the offensive part of doing it, whereas the other one's more defensive because This time we want to talk about winning business and handling rejection, but it's in two parts as always. Most of the winning business stuff will be first and then we're going to have a really good conversation with Rob Law, the founder of Trunky, which you're going to introduce later. He's going to talk more about the handling rejection and how you can pick yourself up and having prerecorded it, or shouldn't say that, but such an amazing conversation that people have got to look forward to. Some amazing tips in there and stuff that, you know, wasn't expecting in the way it came across, and I think people are really going to enjoy it.

Yeah, I agree. I think we were both looking forward to that, to that chat with Rob, and yeah, he didn't disappoint. It's a really excellent interview. So something to look forward to. And in the meantime, we're talking winning business, the winning business part of this episode.

Yes, I've been looking forward to talking about winning business because it is potentially a complex subject and again, is, you know, we come from different angles on the way we do these things normally. It's the part where you give yourself a chance to reduce rejection. So it's the yin and yang to reducing rejection. If you kind of focus on winning business, you might have less rejection to worry about.

Agreed. And it's obviously a massively important topic and a complex one, but should we just begin with how, you know, exactly what exactly it means, sort of so defining, I mean, it sounds like a simple thing, but what is winning business? How do you go about it?

How do you begin? And where do you begin? Let's get, let's get doctoring as always. And obviously our audience are business-to-business people. And so, you know, there's different types of business and we're not going to go through all of them, but we're going to follow a kind of common principle. And the first one is that you're either doing a pitch or you're sending in a proposal, you're trying to win something, whatever it might be. And interestingly enough, the win rate on winning proposals is only something like 30% for most companies. So all that effort writing proposals and doing a great job making it look good, the win rate's only 30%, which absolutely means that 70% of the time you're losing, sorry to say, which is quite scary, right? It is scary. So, you know, what we want to focus on first of all is how do we increase the win rate so that we don't waste our time because it costs lots of money to write responses. And the baseline is that customers, and this is the shocker, customers don't, they don't want you or your company, no offense, they actually want an outcome. They don't even want a solution. You know, in the '90s and the 2000s, people have been on the courses of how you sell solutions. Customers don't want a solution, to be honest, no offense to anyone, they just want an outcome. Therefore, it's all in the context of what they're looking for. So I've got this kind of idea. Of a three-legged stool to share with you. You know, I like a little example.

Love these.

Yeah. You want a bit of a three-legged stool? You ready for it? Yes. Hey, yes, George, please.

I can't wait. Yeah, lay it on me. Yes, I'm ready.

Okay, good. Good answer. So yeah, this is it. The three-legged stool is this. The first leg is to be able to resonate. So basically the customer needs to have a need and the need is, you know, the outcome that they want to have. The second leg is you've got to be able to differentiate. You've got to be the best option. You've got to be kind of the cream of the crop. You've got to be the the best option for that customer for the need that they have. And the third one is you've got to be able to substantiate, which basically means they've got to trust you and believe you and like you. Those three things are— if one of them is missing, then the stall is going to fall over. So for example, if they don't have a need, even if you are the best option in town and they trust you and love you, they're not going to buy from you because they don't need it. Yeah. Also, if they do need what you've got, but you're not the best option in town, they could go anywhere else, then the truth is, you know, they're buying price, they'll probably go somewhere else. And then finally, if they do need what you've got and you are the best option, but they don't like you or trust you or your company, unfortunately, you've got no chance. They can't risk it.

I love that. I love that analogy.

That's great.

Do you reckon there's a— is there a hierarchy of importance of those? Is there one which you should focus on? Is it sort of, you know, make sure that you're the best option, so mold yourself to be the best option regardless? Or should you work hardest on being a likable, trustable, trustworthy company?

Well, this is the point of the stool. You need to do them all. And if you don't do them all, the stool is going to fall over, I would say. Now, that's something I want people to think about. And then with that as a backdrop, I want to talk about 3 other words because, you know, I love 3 words. 3 other words are connect, convince, and collaborate. And this is how this works. So putting this into practice, you've got to connect with someone. I like you, they like me, we get each other. You know, sometimes you've been there where you really connect with someone and you like them, they like you. You've been there before. Like you and me. Hey, good answer. Yeah, absolutely. Just like us. We get on well, we understand each other, similar humor, kind of. But that's not enough. You've got to compare to join the dots. You know, when my kids were younger, anyone who's got kids, they do that join the dots thing where they do these little dots and they come to, it's a cat or it's a dog. You've done that before? Remember doing that? Yeah, I do. So if you can connect with someone, join the dots, that's the first step, but it's not enough. They like you, but they're not necessarily going to buy from you because you might not have the need. Then the convince part is not to kind of put your arm behind their back and make them buy from you, but you convince them because you've done this before. You do this for a living. I'm really good at this stuff. You believe in what you're doing and therefore you can give them examples that convince them because they trust you that you know what you're doing and you've done it before. So, hey, now I like you. I'm convinced that you know what you're doing. You know your onions, so to speak. And then the third one is collaborate. And collaborate is, look, because I've done this before, I'm not doing this for the first time with you. And so I'm going to hold your hand and take you through it and we'll do this together. Don't have to worry about it. We know what we're doing.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Connect, convince, collaborate. It's the sort of thing you can imagine on a t-shirt. I might make it. We could do some sort of giveaway perhaps.

Yeah, maybe the kind of three-legged stool on a hat or something. Have the whole combination going on. That'd be quite good. Yeah. Nice.

What do you think? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Big fan of that. And that's, so that's, these are the ways that you go about increasing the win rate. This is sort of the foundation for that.

Yeah, but the overriding thing is that when you're selling, you're not selling to one person. So the context is more important than anything else. Context is everything. And therefore you've got to think who's on the end of my pitch or my presentation or my meeting or my proposal. Is it the financial director? Is it the head of purchasing? Is it the technical guy? Is it the media guy? And on that basis, then you have to adapt your your language and your conversation and your proposal writing so that you're connecting, convincing, collaborating with all of those people.

And that harkens back a little bit to what we were saying last episode, doesn't it? When we were talking about the CVs and how you present yourself, you want to make yourself seem like you're the person that they want. Yeah. And that takes a little bit of adapting, as you say.

And then you've joined the dots, all the stars are aligned, and you've got a better chance. No guarantees. But if your win rate is only 30% and now you're doing this, If you can increase your win rate by 2 or 3%, it makes a massive difference. So therefore less chance of rejection and tears. The idea is to have karma, not drama.

That's pretty nice. Another t-shirt there.

Another t-shirt. Get a whole set going. It's going to be great.

So if you, if the average is sort of 30, you've upped that by sort of 3, 2 or 3%. That's still a hell of a lot of percent of unsuccessful pitches or whatever it may be. I mean, we're going to talk to Rob obviously about dealing with that sort of on a sort of personal level, but what's the best way to remain motivated to sort of carry on if you're receiving, if everyone's receiving that amount of rejection?

Okay, well, the key to the motivation and drive and commitment, if you like, is self-belief. And the entry into self-belief, before I get into the topic, is preparation. Because if I'm prepared, then my confidence is increased. And if my confidence is increased, I've got a better chance of, you know, my self-belief goes up because I think, okay, I know what I'm doing, I've rehearsed this, I know what I'm going to say if they say this and whatever. Yeah, it's like Edmund Hillary did not just rock up to Everest. He was the guy that reached the Everest summit. He was the first guy to— he didn't just kind of rock up, he was walking about and then he could make it, you know, he did a lot of planning in order to do that. So therefore it's probably not a big ask for us to do the preparation. So I think the on-ramps to motivation and self-belief is preparation. But the next one I would challenge is, yeah, and no offense to anyone here, but are you ambitious enough? Do you really care enough about your product, your solution, your pitch that you've got a passion for it and you really care about it and you really believe in it? Because if you don't, I wouldn't say don't bother, but you've got a much less chance of succeeding if you don't. Would you agree?

I do agree, yeah. And there are lots of people, you know, you speak to anyone and they've all got great ideas. But I think what separates people is, you know, if it's like, oh, I've had this wonderful idea on a Sunday afternoon, wouldn't this be fun? Or is it sort of something which you're prepared to live and breathe for a prolonged period of time?

Yeah. And you don't have to have a motivation about an idea in isolation because there needs to be a customer need, as we talked about before. But If you believe it, then if you do get rejected, then you've got a foundation to get back up again. Example would be my wife. You know, my wife, she loves to go on holiday when you're allowed to. So she loves to travel and loves to go to most places, right? But she hates airplanes. If there's turbulence, she will cry. But the excitement and motivation of going to that place at the end is slightly more exciting than the fear of traveling. So she's ambitious enough to go there, if that makes sense, that overcomes the pain of getting there.

So the destination is outweighing the fear of what comes before.

Yeah. So you're a travel guy, so I knew you'd get that.

I can relate to that perfectly.

When people listen to Rob slightly later on, you're going to see that drive and motivation and self-belief in his product. You know, he was famously rejected by Dragon's Den. Don't want to give away too much, but it wasn't the— he came out of Dragon's Den saying, I'll show you. He was driven by something else, which you can listen to later, which is amazing. And that's a massive insight. And so the motivation drive doesn't matter what it is, is what's important to you. But that's the starting point. And then connected to that is the kind of visualization of success, because you you kind of get what you expect, positively or negatively. Have you ever come across someone that's like, you know, whatever happens, they're going to take the wrong turn, they're going to make the wrong decision. It's just not going to work out and there's going to be a drama. Yeah. You know anyone like that? Yeah, I do too.

Yeah, I could name one or two.

I won't obviously. Me too. I can name quite a few. And then on the other hand, you find people that almost feel like, look like magnets of success. You know, they're really annoying actually. Everything works out. It seems to be easy for them. And I think the truth is that they're part of their self-motivation, self-belief and drive, and they visualize getting what they expect. So they expect to do well, not in a kind of difficult way, but in a way that they genuinely believe it. They're not being kind of difficult. Here's an example. Have you ever gone somewhere with someone? You're completely driving so much at the moment, but in a car with someone and they were looking for a space outside of a shop or something and you visualized it and you got it.

Situation? Not me personally, because as you know, I don't tend to drive too much, but I've seen it happen. And a friend of mine, he gave himself a nickname, which I can't quite remember now, but he was just incredible at parking. And because he knew that he was great at parking, he would almost try and get himself into these really difficult spaces just to sort of say that he'd done it. And I think that that self-belief, knowing that he was so brilliant at it, he sort of— it was a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Yeah, exactly. So I, if I'm looking, if I want to go to a restaurant or to a shop, I visualize the space outside. There's always a space right right outside. I can't explain why, but it always happens. And when you're driving again, you'll do exactly the same. Yeah, so that, that motivation driving commitment to an idea that drives that self-belief so that you're expecting successes is the next thing. And then connected to that is having the mental strength and attitude to make it so, because your attitude to adversity is kind of the key to your success. That's why it has to be important enough to you, otherwise it doesn't matter. But I'm never affected by someone else. I'm not being arrogant, but I'm just not affected by someone else. If I believe in something, I will adapt what I'm doing. I listen. I'm not arrogant enough to think I know everything, because I don't. I don't know anything, apparently, my wife tells me. But I'm not affected by someone else, so someone else cannot rain on my parade. Sounds like a song.

Is that a— yeah, it does sound like a song. Is that a natural thing? Is that sort of just something that you're born with? Because, you know, we're talking about these people who just attract success and it seems like they just have this way about them whereby they're just naturally— people say, oh, they're so lucky, but it's obviously not luck, is it? It's obviously a sort of— it's a mindset. Is that something you're born with or is it something that you can cultivate over time?

Yeah, that's a good question. People ask me a lot. I'm quite a positive person, which can be slightly annoying to people, to be honest. But I think I've learned it. I am naturally positive, I think. But for me personally, I think if you've talked to other people, they've kind of learned that, you know, don't let someone else rain on your parade because one or two things will happen. You'll either get bitter or you'll get better. And a lot of people get bitter because of something that's happened and they can't pick themselves up and it doesn't help them. And it's easier to say than to do. But isn't it better to say, look, I'm committed to what I'm doing. I understand what people are saying and I'm not being disrespectful to them. I get it. And they have a right to their opinion, but it's not going to affect my attitude. So if I've had— if I'm having a bad— someone else is having a bad day, for example, it's not affecting my day.

There's that old phrase, isn't there? Comparison is the thief of joy, which I can't— I don't know exactly what it means, but I think, you know, if you see— if you're too negatively affected by those around you, it can really bring you down. And I mean, again, it feels like a natural thing to be. To be affected by those around you or to be affected by negative feedback. I mean, it takes, as we were talking about, real mental strength.

I mean, you'll hear that with Rob later on. But actually, if we think about sport, I love watching tennis. I don't play it, as you know, but I love watching tennis. And the reason I like it is some of the really good players and some of the obvious ones, when there could be 1 set, 2 sets down, and if it was me, I'd be like, given up. It's obviously not going to happen, but they don't. They almost relish it. They come back from it. They've got the mental toughness for it. Yeah, it almost motivates them to show, you know, I can— I love coming back from 2 sets down.

They do in their minds, but yeah, there was that great quote from the Bake Off final last week where they were talking about Björn Borg, and the reason that he was so good is because he was able to just forget all the things that have gone wrong so far and just be in the moment and sort of strive for that, for that win. Without being negatively affected by the potential mistakes you've made up until then.

I'm pleased you gave me the Borg example, because when you said Bake Off, I thought you were going to tell me about making a cake or something. When the old cake wobbled and someone dropped it the other week, it was probably the same thing. They could have given up, but they went back and put the ingredients together and tried to build another one.

That's what separates people, isn't it? Because I think, as you said, I would have just stuffed my head in the freezer and had a little cry.

Well, they probably did as well, to be honest, they didn't show it. And then the last bit, George, I want to talk about is is something I call mental rehearsal. Okay. You've got one of those question marks in your voice again. Okay. What the hell are people talking about? I have no idea.

Where's this going?

What I mean by this is when you're doing a pitch or you're in a meeting or in an interview or anything, I mentally run through the pitch. I expect it to go well, not arrogantly, but I expect it to go well, but I mentally run through it. So they're going to say this. I go into a little bit of a trance, to be honest. And we're going through what they might ask me and what I might say and when I present it and what the, in the context of the customer, what sort of things they might be interested in. Because I've kind of thought about that and planned it. I've mentally run through it as if I'm there. When I'm there, normally pretty much everything I've mentally gone through comes up and I've already rehearsed it. So I'm like, you know, sometimes you look in the mirror before you go out and you go, if they say this, I'm going to say that. And if I do this, they're going to do that. Unfortunately, in reality, it doesn't always work out like that because I rehearse it and then I say something stupid. But that's the goal. So I mentally run through it. And interestingly enough, if you speak to people that I've used to keep on the tennis analogy, if people watch Wimbledon, like, through when you're allowed to go to Wimbledon, they play better tennis. Don't mean professionals, I mean regular people, because they're mentally rehearsing how they play and thinking it through for themselves.

That's interesting. I definitely get better. I mean, I'm terrible at playing tennis, but I do enjoy playing tennis. And around Wimbledon season, my game definitely improves.

There you go.

And you're right, it must be just having the running through the moves in your head a few games ahead. But then is it possible to be overprepared? Because I've definitely been in scenarios in the past where I've gone into interviews or pitches or whatever it may be, and I've sort of— and I've spent way too long probably going through all the different potential outcomes. And as a result, I sort of trip myself up. And been too worried about remembering what I would say in any given scenario. Is it good to leave a little bit to improvisation?

Yeah, I think so. I mean, if you try too hard and you overthink it, it sounds like a contradiction from what we've said, then you'll be confused about— you'll either be trying to get everything out on the table and overdo it, or you'll try too hard, which is really repelling. There's a kind of a whiff of desperation as you push too hard. So, yeah, I think so. But again, if you, if you come from the context of the people you're meeting or writing to and the different characters in the context of really what they're trying to do, then you just have to nail one or two things and you'll be in a much better place than if you didn't. That's what I would say.

Okay. I think that sums it up. That's winning business.

In a nutshell.

In a 20-minute segment there. And no, there's some really interesting stuff there. And as always, we'll come back at the end of the episode to go through 3 key takeaways from this conversation. That you can take out with you into the real world when it comes to winning business. We're going to deal with the handling rejection side of things now with a really excellent chat that we had with Rob that we referenced earlier. So let's head over to the virtual room where Rob is waiting for us.

Rob, thank you so much for joining us on this episode. We're fortunate to have Rob Law, MBE, founder and CEO of Trunky, which is the ride-on suitcase. We're going to come back to that in a second, but thanks for joining us, Rob.

Hi, Gary, thanks for inviting me along.

This episode is increasing the win rate and handling rejection. You know, we're obviously going to talk about the excitement in Dragon's Den when you're on it. By the way, that episode was the last time I watched Dragon's Den. I was so upset by that episode because you did such a great job. That I threw something across the room and I never watched it again after that.

So to make a bit of infamous TV.

Yeah, it felt that way. Wasn't there a slow motion when they pulled the cord on your prototype and it came off in their hands and they was like, "Ah, can't do this." It was a bit of a shocker, wasn't it?

Yeah, it's funny because most people can actually recall the episode because it was such a catastrophic moment. Lots of people who watched the early episodes of Dragon's Den, this was season 3, do remember it and And it kind of actually came round to propelling the Trunki brand and product into the sort of public persona in the end. But at the time, certainly didn't feel that way.

Share with the people listening, I mean, a lot of people will know about it. I think, you know, most airports around the world, when you're allowed to travel, you see a Trunki go by. But tell us what's happened since then, for those people that don't realize. It was about 20 years ago, wasn't it? Quite a long time ago.

Came up with the idea for the ride-on suitcase while I was studying product design at the University of Northumbria. In '97. I got rejected from luggage manufacturers and toy manufacturers for several years, and in 2006, I started the business with the first container of Terence and Trixie, the pink and blue trunkies, and that's now celebrated as Trunkie's birthday. So fast forward 15 years of trading, and we've sold over 4 million suitcases in over 100 countries around the world.

Unbelievable. And what a— it's such a great story, isn't it? I mean, that's what you hope at the end of that episode. That's what I hoped would happen. And that's why I'm so excited to have you on the show, because it was something that stuck in my mind. But interesting enough, you know, looking into your past a bit, it was interesting because even before you went on Dragon's Den, you started to make a bit of traction and you had a couple of other big challenges that would probably put most people off doing anything else. Something about the factory, something happened with your factory that you developed. Tell us about that.

Well, before that, I, after 3, 4 years of knocking on manufacturers' doors, I finally found a startup toy company to take Trunky on, and they were formed by industry executives from much larger companies. And I licensed Trunky to them, secured a global licensing deal, and they, over a 3-year period, only actually secured one customer in the Middle East. So Trunky never comes to the UK, into Europe, or even the US, and they went bust., and them going bust sort of spurred me on to try and start the business myself. But in the first year of trading, the factory in China that had been making them went bust as well, so we had to rescue the tooling before the Chinese government came in and seized all the assets, move it to a new factory, and get the product into production. Now, the only part that wasn't made in steel molds that make the plastic parts was a metal clasp that I designed, like a hinge, and the one part that didn't work properly when we first landed the product in the UK was this one metal part that was a millimeter too short, which a millimeter actually meant when a child sat on the trunkie, the catches would pop or they would hold the trunkie closed. So I had to deal with quite a big teething problem with the very first landed suitcase.

And then there was another bit of adversity. You seem to collect adversity along your journey with the airlines. Wasn't there some challenge with the airlines on hand luggage that came up?

Yeah, so this, we'd filmed Dragon's Den, but it hadn't aired, and I was really excited about the summer peak selling season of 2006, and it was the height of terrorism and air travel, and actually the German World Cup was on, and I came back from the warehouse fixing all these trunkies up with the Pauli catches, and sat down to watch the news to find out the results of the games that had been playing that day. The news presenter told the country that the secret services had foiled the liquid bomb threat, which was a plan to blow planes up in the sky. I thought, well, thank goodness for that. And then the next words out of his mouth completely drained my face. And as a result, the government have decided to ban hand luggage.

Uh, Rob, this is all before you went on Dragon's Den, right?

Well, we, we'd actually recorded the episode, but it hadn't aired.

Yeah, this is amazing for me because this episode is about, uh, apart from, uh, the win— increasing the win rate, handling rejection, and you Now, you've come across quite a lot of adversity in this and more, and we'll dig into it in a second. But where did you get your— for people listening here, where did you get your drive from and what makes you get up again? Because most people would have quit after those things.

Well, I think one early life experience taught me that life is short and you've got to make the most of your time. So that doesn't slow me down too much. And also, life is always dealing with problems, rejections, things not going your way, and that's just life. So when you realize that it's not personal, it just happens to everyone, maybe some more than others, but it's always going to happen at some point, you kind of shift your mindset from wallowing in self-pity to trying to solve that problem. So the sooner you face up to these problems and challenges, the sooner you find solutions and the sooner you can move on. And I think it's really what makes us human, that ability to transform our mind from potential devastation to finding new opportunities.

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting you just said, and you say in a very kind of matter-of-fact way, but I know you've got a new book out called 65 Roses and Trunky, and the byline is, "Defying the odds in life and business." Are you happy to share some of that background? 'Cause I think it will help people really understand how you bottled some of those things in, some of that thought and attitude that you've got, 'cause you said it in a matter-of-fact way, but it comes from a different place.

Sure, well, I'm, I was born with cystic fibrosis along with my twin sister, and children quite often struggle with the pronunciation of the most common genetically inherited disease, and they call it 65 roses. So that's where the title of the book comes from. And basically, if you're not familiar with the condition, down to a faulty gene that creates a salt imbalance in your body. Seems simple enough, but that actually means your lungs clog with mucus and get destroyed over time. You can't digest any fat without supplements. Special pills for us blokes. It causes fertility issues. And my sister ended up— her lungs got so degraded through CF, she ended up having a heart and lung transplant when she was 15. She got an extra year's lease of life, but sadly passed away when we were 16. Sorry to hear that. So that was a real life-turning moment and hugely tragic and traumatic for the family to go through. When you're faced with, um, a potential similar fate, you know, I kind of thought, well, I can either wallow in self-pity and succumb to this disease, or I could choose to, to fight it and to live for both of us.

But I mean, it certainly takes a lot of excuses away from most of us, right, when you hear that kind of story. Because, yeah, the tip of the iceberg was the kind of the drama on Dragon's Den, but now, you know, now we get underneath your story. You're coming from a very different place. And again, for people that are listening, how do they— obviously they're not from the same situation as you, but when they're hitting diversity, it's a big thing to people at the time. How, where do you come, where do you go from inside to reproduce that mindset?

Well, let's just take lockdown, for example. I mean, I'm classed as critically, clinically very vulnerable. So I had to— I got the letter from the government saying, do not leave your front door, essentially. Yeah, there's all that unknown. When am I gonna be able to go to a shop again? When can I socialize? When can I do all this stuff? And you just don't know. And I can't influence that. So I've just gotta be grateful for the things I do have. And I'm very grateful to have actually fathered 3 children, despite growing up thinking I could never be a father. And also we were fortunate enough to have a decent-sized garden and a good coffee machine. So it's just—

What more do you need in life, right?

Yeah, when things are really dark and you just don't know when you're gonna get out, you just gotta try and feel comfort and refuge in things you do have and take much greater pride and satisfaction from them. And then when the dust settles, you re-energize yourself to try and look for other opportunities for other futures and try and— there's a lot of living in the moment, not thinking too far into the future.

It's very humbling what you're saying, Rob, to be honest. Can we just go back to the Dragon's Den thing? Because there's something on my mind I've been dying to ask you, if you don't mind. When you went back in the lift, I think they used to have a lift in those days, what were you thinking?

When I left the top of the stairs, this was season 3, so it actually was filmed in an old warehouse back then. When I left the top of the stairs, I was like really gutted I hadn't closed the deal and I didn't have the cash, which I didn't have really any money to start this company, so that would have been very useful. By the time I got to the bottom of the stairs, it suddenly dawned on me that this was going to make very theatrical TV that wasn't going to paint me or my my trunkies in the great light, and this was going to air on TV. And I genuinely wished I'd invented a time machine and not a ride-on suitcase by the time I kind of left the building. But although I kind of struggled with what had happened for sort of a couple of hours, you know, I've got a bit of timeframe here, I might not have a solution right now, it's going to air in several months' time. So let's just see where we are close to that time. I've got a business to run, I've got sales to make, and I've got sales leads to chased down. So I focused on that.

Did it drive you to go, right, I'm going to show them? Did you feel that way?

There was some sort of wanting to prove to them that Trunky could be successful, but it certainly wasn't an overriding feature. I mean, I kind of wanted to make Trunky successful just personally anyway beforehand. And I suppose deeper down, I was trying to live a life for me and my sister. So on a scale, it was fairly low down, but it wasn't—

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? That perspective. For people that are listening, What advice do you give to someone when, you know, you get rejected a number of times? You know, should you go forward? Or when do you decide that flogging a dead horse or a dead donkey is not the right thing?

It's quite often a game of numbers, and you've got to kiss a lot of frogs. As a design graduate, I was trying to find design work, and as product designers, there weren't many jobs available. There aren't that many consultancies or manufacturers that employ them, and there's a hell of a lot of graduates. So, you know, I'd phone up leading design consultancies in London and tell them, I'm working in London, I'm going to be around your neck of the woods next week, is there any chance I just pop in and show you my portfolio? I wasn't in London, I was living with my parents up in Chester, but if they said yes, I'll get on the train next week and make sure I was there to show them my wares. And it was knocking on lots of doors, but although there was lots of rejection, it was also really interesting to see the environments that these agencies were creating for people to work in. I'm just really interested in that, so even if you didn't get a job out of it, you got the experience of seeing how companies work, it. So yeah, you've got to, you've got to try a lot of things. You've got to keep your energy levels high every time you go for a new meeting. You've got to feel like it's your first and come across as confident as you can. And it is hard, yeah, but you've got to keep trying. When to give up? I suppose it depends. I mean, I quite often say you've got to listen to your customer when you're developing a product or a service. And yeah, if you've created a product that no one wants and you've tried flogging it for several years, then it probably is time to give up. I mean, one of the, one of one of my favorite inventors that came to me, came to me with an idea of a suitcase that turned into a deck chair, because he didn't think you should be paying £5 to hire a deck chair on the beach each day. Good point. I was like, well, have you actually talked to anyone about this? Have you talked to your customers? What do you do with all the sand in your clothes?

Yeah, because you otherwise think the problem's everyone's and it's only your own. Yeah. And Rob, I was watching one of your many videos, you've got quite a few, and I always find it interesting to watch these things.. And you said something like, success is just a hiatus in a series of defeats.

Tell us more about that.

It was a really interesting approach to success.

Yeah, I think we think success is this long golden road that stretches out into the sunset. And I think, yeah, you kind of think, well, I'm going to be happy when I bought my first house, I'm going to be happy once I had— when I found— when I'm married, I'm going to be happy when I have a child, I'm going to be happy when I reach 40, I'm going to be happy when when the goalposts always moves and I'll be happy when I retire. You know, life's a journey and you've just got to enjoy these stages of life and it never ends and you just get bored if you ended up kind of reaching perfect success where every day was a perfect day which never really happens. So, you know, you've got to go on this journey that's going to have adversity, you're going to have to change, you're going to have to celebrate some successes, but also you're going to be going through some deep failures too. I think it's the ability to pick yourself up and keep moving and not expect everything to be perfect all the time.

Do you do that by yourself, by just resetting goals? Because you say it's short-lived, you know, part of the phrase you use is that success is short-lived. Does that mean you reset your goals?

Again, it also, what is success? What are we talking about here? Are we talking about financial success? Talking about personal fulfillment, you know, the definition of success is quite wide, isn't it? I mean, for me, the greatest success I've had isn't launching a global children's travel brand and selling 4 million suitcases. It's actually having 3 kids. Yeah, because I spent 3/4 of my adult life thinking I can never be a father. And as a result, I've now started working part-time within the business for the last 5 years so I can spend more time with those kids, which to me is success.

That's fantastic. I mean, it's such a great perspective because, you know, I guess we read these things and people have a certain view of what success might be, but the way you've articulated it, you know, it's a bit of an eye-opener for me. You know, again, back to try and help some people that are listening to this, the last episode we did was helping people find other work, but in this particular one, we're trying to get people to sort of deal with rejection, either to, you know, either win some business or or anything in that space. So what advice would you give someone who's been rejected for something that's important to them?

Yeah, I guess it comes down to having control over the things you can control. So if you're pitching for a job, there are a lot of things out of your control that you can't define, and you don't really know what's happening up behind the scenes. I think changing your mindset to As long as you've done the best you can and controlled what you can and prepared for it the best you can, and you've been rejected, you just haven't got there yet. Remember that word, yet. You can't influence what those decisions were that rejected you, but you can influence how you performed. So as long as you think you gave it your best shot, you just haven't got there yet. You've just got to go off, try that again, and repeat. And if you don't think you've given it your best shot, then try and improve on those areas where you think you might have not done so well. Don't take it personally because, you know, there are all these things that you cannot control, whether there are certain budgets, these companies, or whatever you're doing. Yeah, where to start with all the reasons why you might not have been chosen. You can't control them, so move on.

One last question I want to ask you, Rob. Now, looking back, and, you know, there's— I know there's lots of stuff that's happened over the last, well, 20 years, it seems. What would you have done anything differently?

I think that's a good question, and I quite often get asked what my greatest regret is. But again, I think we're on a journey and you make decisions. There's no right or wrong answer. There's ways that work and ways that don't, and you find out the ways that don't by trying, trying different things. So if you try to erase some of these things, you wouldn't have learned, you wouldn't have grown as a person, and you're make different decisions in the future that may take you the wrong way. So could I have wished Dragon's Den wouldn't have happened and I invented a time machine? Well, at the time, I wish that would be true. But looking back now, I wouldn't change a thing. It all worked out perfectly, the whole Dragon's Den thing. You never know what else might happen. There's always a silver lining.

God, I love it. I love your attitude and approach. I must admit, I've started reading the 65 Roses and Trunky, and it looks like I'm in for a treat. Really appreciate you taking the time to join us on this episode. Your story is inspirational, and for me personally, it's been a real pleasure because I was really looking forward to meeting you because you're a bit my hero on Dragon's Den. So thank you so much.

Oh, thanks, Gary, and good luck to everyone listening trying to succeed, however that definition may be in your mind. But just keep trying, don't take it personally.

Fantastic. Thank you so much, George.

Thanks so much, Rob. And, you know, it's around this sort of time in the conversation where I horn in after all the inspirational stuff that you've been saying to ask you for a couple of tune recommendations for the playlist that we're putting together, a Company Doctor playlist based on the series that we're recording at the moment. I'm asking all of our special guests to, to throw a couple of tunes into the mix, and I wondered if you had a couple of recommendations for us.

Well, how about I throw in some tunes that were pivotal moments in my life around kind of travel. So I guess one tune that really sticks out was the first holiday I went off on my own after celebrating GCSE results, and we played endlessly James and Sometimes when we were in Newquay celebrating. So that song just takes me back to, you know, just finishing GCSEs and life was just really exciting Fantastic.

I did the same holiday, actually, Newquay after the GCSEs. Oh, did you? Trip I'll never forget.

Yeah. Painting the town red together.

Yeah. That's when you learn what happens on tour stays on tour.

That's right.

And then another really pivotal moment, an amazing experience. I was really lucky to get an internship in New York when I was 22. So the iMac had just been launched. The Volkswagen Beetle had just been redesigned, you know, product design was really exciting. And I was in New York and I discovered the Sugarhill Gang and just loved everything I heard from them, so I'll probably put forward "Rapids of Delight." Great, great choice.

Two great choices there. Thank you very much, Rob. They will appear in the Company Doctor playlist, which we'll be promoting soon enough, so thank you very much again. Okay, Gary, that brings us to almost the end of episode 3 of the Company Doctor Doctor podcast, and it's that time where I ask you for 3 key takeaways.

Here they are. So I've only got 3 this time because normally my 3 turns into 4. The first one is focus on outcomes and value. You know, context is everything. Look through the lens of the people and remember that 3-legged stool: the need, the best option, and belief and trust in you. Number 2 is do you actually care enough what you're portraying, what you're selling? That will increase your self-belief. And the third one is, you know, check your attitude. You get what you expect. Don't let someone rain on your parade. Be better, not bitter.

I think we're going to have to put Rain on My Parade on the Company Doctor playlist at the end of this. That playlist, by the way, is now live, I should say, and can be enjoyed via Spotify. I should also mention that for our next episode, we'll be introducing The Doctor's Surgery, where Gary will be fielding some key questions from you, our listeners. The topic and details of how to get in touch and what we're going to be discussing for our next episode will follow on our social media accounts. So do please keep an eye out for those. In the meantime, Gary, many thanks to you as always. A very special thanks again to Rob Law, whose book 65 Roses and the Trunky is now available. And of course, a huge thanks to you all for listening.

The Company Doctor podcast with Gary Gamp and George colloed. Why not subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts? Leave a review on iTunes if you have enjoyed this episode and find out more at thecompanydoctor.com.