The Secret Strategy to Perform at your Peak with Strategy Execution Specialist, Ray McGrath #17

After all, all art is experience.

Hello and welcome to The Company Doctor. This episode we're joined by Ray McGrath, strategy execution specialist and coach at FranklinCovey. He and Gary discuss the ways in which we can collectively turbocharge our business performance, and why now, more than ever, people and organizations should be pushed rather than pandered to.

Good morning, Ray. Fantastic to have you on this episode. This is actually our anniversary episode, and what a great guest to have our anniversary. Ray, welcome.

Well, it's great to be here. Thank you, Gary.

I think people are in for a treat today. So in a minute, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself, but Ray works for FranklinCovey and is an execution practice leader in the UK and Europe, but he's going to tell you a little bit more. So maybe as a good way to start, Mr. McGrath, why don't you tell us about yourself and about the company?

Yeah, sure thing. Like I say, great to be here. Well, back in the day when I was about 26, I was gratuitously overpromoted. So I'm in my, um, early 50s at the moment. So yeah, overpromoted, ended up in a board role for a technology business and then got away with it, you know, didn't look back, ended up in all sorts of different businesses always at C-suite. And around about June 2014, that time I was service and operations director of a €1 billion IT services business, which is when we met, Gary, actually, back in the day. Indeed. I got the opportunity to get much closer to Franklin Covey. I'd watched Franklin Covey with real interest over the years, particularly around their seminal work, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. It's one of those things that's always on a bookshelf somewhere, in some leader, whatever corner of the world they're in. And quite right too. It is a pretty profound piece of work. But what I didn't quite realize was this stuff around strategy execution, which was really absolutely my thing. Yeah, I don't quite know what to say other than that, Gary, that was the turning point for me. And now instead of just being with one leadership team and thinking about strategy and the execution on that strategy, I get the opportunity to work with lots of different leadership teams every day. So—

What a great job.

I feel very fortunate in the role that I'm in.

And to be honest, they're fortunate to have you, right?

Well, hey, I don't know about that. But you know what? When I say these words, I'm just going to use a phrase now, which years ago I'd have kind of rolled my eyes, you know, if I'd have heard myself say it. But I don't now, and my phrase is, I was meant to do this job.

Yeah, no, I can see it. And when people get to find out about you through this episode, they'll realize that. And in fact, my final— when I get to my final question, I've got a question about all your career threaded together. I think a good place to start, because the episodes around the topic of turbocharging your business performance and people's careers. You know, we've got a business-to-business audience. I thought it would be interesting because part of the reason we're doing this episode is the conversation that you and I had because we're in this weird environment for the last year and a half or so. And, you know, in the current environment, you feel that, you know, we need to push people and organizations really hard, which initially sounded counterintuitive. So what's your thoughts behind that, Ray?

Yeah, I guess, but a pre— just to preempt— not a preamble to that, but just a qualifier before I go any further. I'm certainly not sidestepping the need to be physically and mentally in good shape. So I just need to get that out there.

But this is—

I'm not going to now launch into a Joe Wicks, you know, let's, uh, you know, let's get healthy. And of course we do. And, you know, let's eat more carrots, etc., which is a good thing also. So I went to a talk the other night and there was a guy called Ben Timberlake and he's written a book called High Risk. He's an ex-SAS guy and so, oh wow, stories that would make your toes curl.

I think you say make my hair curl, should be interesting.

Yeah, so he was a really intriguing guy. Yeah, he talks, Just as a little sidestep here, all of his SAS mates were together thinking about what's the toughest thing that you could do. One guy was talking about running up Kilimanjaro and another guy was swimming the Amazon or whatever. This guy Ben decided that the most difficult thing to do— this is why I'm going to bring the conversation right down— was to see if he could get on and then off heroin. And that was what he decided was going to be his really tough thing that he could do. Now, I won't spoil it if anybody wants to read the book. I've got nothing to do with the book, by the way, but it was just a fantastic talk. But he used this phrase— so I'll go back on track now— use this phrase. He said, look, post-traumatic stress disorder is, is absolutely a thing, and it's really prevalent in, in the military, he says. But let me share with you what I see more. He said, I see a lot more of post-traumatic growth. It's an awful lot more than that, where people come out of adversity and difficulty and they grow. And we— I see that in clients every day, that growth and engagement is a choice. It isn't something that is the reserve of the enlightened, as it were. It really is a choice. And working particularly over the last 7 years, I've done about 37, 38 implementations of quite a comprehensive approach to strategy execution. And hey, some of them have been spectacular and some of them have been really rough and bumpy and it's been tricky. So I'm certainly not coming on here, Gary, saying that the world is all in a lovely place. But What I see is when those have this preparedness, this willingness, if you like, to perform and to drive performance and push even when there is adversity, there's something so exciting about that. And it just feels rather convenient at the moment to say, "Oh well." It's been so difficult with lockdown, hasn't it? It's just been so tough, and it's just been so hard with, you know, with the— I couldn't get fuel, and like— and I'm sounding really patronizing and inappropriate, I'm sure, there as I use that certain tone of voice. Like I say, the pre-caveat was important about physical and mental health, and I get it, you know. If we had a whole load of frontline workers on the call now, maybe they'd have a different sort of feedback for me, but Hey, with the clients that I work with, those that make a choice to push, now that's something really special. And so I'll pause there for a moment, Gary. There's a couple of just, well, one or two little stories I want to tell around pushing it and what it sounds like. But like I said, I'll pause for a moment. Does that resonate with you? I mean, you must see that in, you know, as you consult also.

It does, but it does conjure up another question before you give me the stories, which is If I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, well, I want to be like that, but I've kind of lost my mojo during the period of the last year and a half for various reasons. You know, people are in different situations. Some are unfortunate enough not to be able to work in the situation they found themselves in. So when I've lost my mojo and I don't have the motivation, I'm feeling exhausted, how do I switch to that way of thinking? It sounds like a nice idea, but how the hell do I switch?

Yeah, sure. So, you know, it's interesting. A mentor of mine, I spent some time with him last month, and, um, you know, I said I was feeling tired, I was feeling a bit fatigued. He said, well, Ray, you know the cure for that, don't you? He said, you sure you're feeling really tired? He said, perhaps exhausted. I think he was ribbing me a little bit. And I said, no, no, I really am tired and, you know, kind of losing my way a little bit here. He said, well, the answer for exhaustion, the response to that is wholeheartedness. Okay. Is to actually enter in a wholehearted manner. And so this— and I know this sounds all quite idealistic, Gary, and it's a great question, and I'm definitely not going to dodge it— but that one of your previous podcasts was the, you know, the superpower of purpose. Was that Lola?

Yeah, Lola.

Absolutely. It was great. Talked about that. There's something so special about Taking time to think why you get out of bed in the morning, why it is that you show up, what is the fundamental purpose to you seeking some level of performance and getting to that. And I appreciate I'm sounding a little bit Simon Sinek, Start with Why, which is a great piece of work, by the way, and well worth a look. But it I believe it comes down to the fundamentals of the human condition and the, the choice that we make and whether or not we're prepared to work out our underlying purpose. And a great little exercise to do for this is to begin with your best work, is to begin with a, a clean piece of paper and just Write down those times where you just couldn't help but be brilliant. You just couldn't help it. And I don't mean, hey, that day I presented to a load of investors and we raised $58 million. I, I don't know. I mean, if you've done that, that's lovely. I really do mean like you spoke out loud at a school play or something, or you, I don't know, you come second in the sack race and then you fell over and everybody laughed and you laughed with them and that was just wonderful. And you told the story afterwards and I don't know, there's just so many moments. And there's a guy called Michael— I've forgotten his surname— Bungay. Anyway, peak moments. That's when the quote goes wrong, isn't it? When you can't remember who wrote the book. But there's this concept of peak moments and writing down those peak moments of where you were at your strongest, where you just couldn't help but deliver and achieve. And it's just such a beautiful exercise because you end up writing not only what it is that you did, but you, you then jot down, or when was that, and who was I with, and what was I wearing. And you just end up with this genuinely, this really good list of those moments where you are at your peak. And what you see is a trend.

I like that because normally Normally we're kind of connected to the bad stuff, as you said earlier. So it makes sense that now and then we should actually take the time to think about the good, us and our superpowers when we're good in the zone.

Is that what you mean? Yeah, for sure. And yeah, absolutely. And be prepared to be kind to yourself. And do you know, sometimes we really should listen to the way in which we speak to ourselves. You ever get those situations where you chastise yourself? And you actually find yourself being actually quite offensive to yourself.

I think it's okay as long as you don't answer back.

Well, yeah, I suppose that's an interesting sign. It's like you sometimes listen to yourself, you think, "God, would I ever talk to another human being like that? I mean, honestly?" So the answer to this first question about making this choice to push, it begins with why you get out of bed in the morning, having that sense of purpose. But also, you know, being prepared to take a route that isn't always popular, but ultimately what it represents is this sense of performance, but with heart. If I tell you this, just this quick little story with it.

Yeah, tell us a story.

This is gonna be a story, client Gary, but it kind of typifies what I'm I'm trying to say it's two little things. Firstly, I sat in on a weekly check-in with a company around about a month ago. And this is going to sound really innocuous, and it was kind of interesting. It's slightly convoluted, but a lot of them weren't aware that I was present. So they weren't being watched, as it were. And that's not a great definition of culture. It's what you do when nobody's watching. And the manager is really good, actually. She's really, really solid. But I'm coaching this manager at the moment. And it was just a tiny little thing. And she says, "Oh, so what are we all up to this week?" And they went through— it was all very friendly. And first colleague came up and said, "This is what I'm up to, and Tuesday looks like this, and Thursday looks like this." And the next colleague comes in, and this individual says, "Oh, well, tomorrow I'm not around for a couple of hours. I've got dentist thing to do." Without hesitation, the manager said, "Ah, right, okay. So we've got, we're on this project at the moment, somewhat on the critical path. It sounds like, is there some way, I mean, is it like an emergency that you've got on?" And the person says, "Oh no, no, it's just, it's just a checkup." And, um, like I say, didn't skip a beat and said, "Well, if that's something that you could move," That would be really helpful for the team. No, but what I'm saying, I mean, I'm making it sound clumsy. It was actually much more elegant than that, but I really liked it. You know, there was this long pause on the call, and I know, Gary Gamp, the person at the, you know, the other end was kind of cheesed off about that. But, God, it just sent a message like, we're on a critical path at the moment, and, uh, yeah, you Obviously, you've got to go to the dentist, go to the dentist. But the choice that you made to just right in the middle of the day, you're doing your checkup, if you could just move it later in the day, or we can just have it at a different time, or it was just that little moment. And what it meant was that there's this performance with heart. I mean, we want people to operate and function well, but there's standards that we work to. But that's a rather twee example, Gary Gamp, but the best The best one is a particular area that I coach in on accountability and doing what you say you're going to do. So let's just go through this scenario now. And I'm, like I said, I've been working for the last 7 years with clients, particularly in this area. And if you're choosing to push in very specific aspects of your organization, and you're really laying it out there as a special focus. And you come to a session, an accountability session, having not done what you said you were going to do. So imagine, you know, I work for you, Gary Gamp, and one day, right, one day you look at me and you've all— yeah, yeah, and you've gone around the team and each member of the team has said, "Yep, you know, last week on this critical program, I said I was going to do A and B and I did it, and this has been the impact, and, you know, I'm really pleased." And then you get to me and I say, "Oh, 'You know, Gary, well, obviously, you know, I've had a lot on this week. You know, I've been pretty overwhelmed. There's been a lot going on. I didn't get to that commitment that I made last week, but, you know, obviously I was, you know, working with that escalation, and, you know, but I, you know, obviously I'll get to the thing that I missed. That's fine.' Now, we get on well, Gary, right? You know, and we— I'd like to think that we've got good respect for each other. And let's say, like I say, if I worked for you, I'd look— as I'm saying this, I'd look you in the eye, I'd probably be nodding when I say this, and you'd be nodding as well. And yeah, indeed. And, um, you might think to yourself, well, you know, Ray's a good, good guy, and he did really well at that escalation. So you might say something like, oh, well, I know you've had a lot on, uh, so okay, are you gonna try and get it done this week? And maybe I can help out. And, you know, it's all very friendly. So that's one way of looking at it. But how about pushing it? How about actually No, let's not do that. How about you say this, Gary? Say, "Well, Ray, first and foremost, great job last week. That escalation was managed so well. Really impressed with what you've done. Made a good contribution. Thank you. With regards to the commitment that you missed, now we've agreed as a team, we're on the critical path, that our commitments really matter, and what we're looking to do is to make sure that when we come to this session, 'We really have done, you know, what we said we were going to do. So what is it, Ray, that perhaps I could do, or any member of this team could do around this, around this table or on this call, to assist you in getting that commitment done in addition to the commitment that you're making, going to make for this coming week?' Yeah, I love that.

I think, you know, a lot of people will take excuses from themselves anyway. I mean, it's interesting you should say that because Yeah, I think a lot, a lot of people will feel that, you know, if someone's busy, you should give them empathy. But if you're really striving for a goal, you know, you're trying to take the excuses out of the way. Do you think it's different if someone's in their own business? I mean, I've, I've been in my own business for nearly 14 years. Do you think when you work for yourself, you, you don't take— you take less excuses from yourself? What is it that makes someone willing to do that?

Well, I think if you stayed on your own, you still function and you still flourish as you do, Gary. I actually think often you're tougher on yourself than, than, yeah, than in any other environment. I think it's almost— there's a very natural proclivity to, for entrepreneurs and, um, individuals to, to actually not give themselves a break. And that, that's an example I would suggest at times that goes a little bit too far the other way. And where that becomes tough is the expectation that it, that it sets for those around you.

Okay, but in your example just now, I would say, whose fault is it? Who needs to be the bigger person? Is it the manager in that case because they're letting the person off the hook in normal circumstances? Or is it the individual that needs to stand up and be accountable? Where are you coming from?

Well, it's personal responsibility for both, no question. It's about this preparedness to take personal responsibility. But it is, in particular, it is the manager, it is the leader. It really is. It's to have this courage, genuinely this courage, to call it out, but to do it with heart and to do it with kindness and not be a brute about it. Because you think about it, what often people think the two ends of the spectrum are either, "Oh well, you've had a tough week, never mind." So that sets the tone, by the way. Everybody can now miss their commitment. The minute you say that, like, it doesn't really matter. Yeah, you give permission. But you set the tone. But the other end of the spectrum, which a lot of people assume it is, they say, "Well, why haven't you done it? That needed to be done." Yeah. Like, come on. So both ends of that spectrum are weak.

Yeah.

They're really weak, both of them. The strong route, the difficult route, the one that does take courage, is we come here to do what we say we're going to do. And what is it that I can do to help you with the commitment you've missed in addition to the one that you're going to make for this coming week? And you say it with heart and with kindness, but you also say it with performance at its center. You're prepared to push.

Yeah, because you're striving for greatness.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's certainly— there's definitely 2 or 3 things on my mind at the moment. That's the first That's the first big one, to push when actually the response to everything that we've gone through is to rest or to ease off. I see it quite differently.

I like that. It's kind of refreshing. I read an article that you were co-authoring, and it was to do with strategy, set, go, your goals forward. Because we're talking about goals, I guess the premise you just gave was back on the back of some some goals that the team would have. But in, in the article you said only 15% of employees know what their organization's most important goals are. Is that the foundation of this problem, do you think?

Yeah, indeed, indeed. It's, it's astounding. And I find when I work with C-suite as well— so it'd be easy to go to the front line now, wouldn't it? It would be easy for me to say, oh yeah, we do all these interviews, we speak to those at the front line, and they're just not clear on what the overall strategy is to the business. Well, hey, that, that's a conversation maybe for another day, you know, that gap from, from those that are absolutely closest to the work and those that are in the C-suite and the distance that exists there. So that, that's definitely a, that's a great topic for another day. But actually where I'm homing in, where I, where I've really got some concern is when you pull together a leadership team of an organization and there isn't alignment with why they get out of bed in the morning and what it is that they're looking to achieve and how that manifests itself in strategy and planning. So rather than, like I say, going into middle management and into those closest to the work and thinking about bridging and linking, everything for me does start with, you know, with that leadership team. I'm working with a client at the moment and There's around about 2, couple of thousand people working in this particular part of this business. And the individual says, yeah, we've got a real performance problem. I said, oh, okay, how does that manifest itself? Oh God, it was almost like, oh, don't ask. Oh, you have? All right. And he steps in then and tells me all these stories about those that have decided that particularly COVID has allowed them to operate in a certain way and now performance has dipped. In other pockets, performance is up. So then I start asking questions, Gary, about measurement. So should we get really specific then? Should we actually step in and get really clear? Rather than you saying you have a performance problem and then you reel off maybe 16 KPIs that absolutely you know, magnify the fact that we've got a performance issue. Well, when you dig deep, of course, well, no one's gonna be able to just take in all of those measures, all of those metrics. It's gonna be— there's just lots of fog around this thing called the performance problem. And in this same organization, I'm aware that, you know, there are phrases that are used by the water cooler that go along the lines of, My boss is an idiot. My boss hasn't got a clue. And, um, well, of course, you know, the first thing is it's unlikely that your boss is an idiot, but the chances are that you feel like they are and you feel like there is this distance. Yeah, that I'm not surprised given that I've just sat with that boss and others, and it's difficult for them to be articulate and clear on the kind of performance challenge that they have. So that's, I feel like I've kind of skirted around the question a little bit, Gary.

No, it's good. But what is the focus? What should I do as a leader then to elevate my mission, if you like, so that everyone gets where we're going? What are you suggesting?

Yeah, no, there's a couple of things. One of it is very, I suppose, technical and functional, and the other's quite human. The first kind of technical or functional side— and I actually stole this from Harvard Business Review. Yeah, I think it's kind of— it's 100 years ago, like, I don't know, 1990 or something. Um, and there was this paper written. I'm surprised there wasn't much more said about it, but it was a paper on market leadership. And the surname of one of the authors was Tracy. It was something along the lines of, you know, there's 3 components to your kind of existence, as it were, that you've got to be truly competitive in. Those 3 elements are product leadership, customer intimacy, and operational excellence. Those are these 3 components that you really must be competitive on. You've got to be able to compete. You've got to be able to function in the market. Everybody would be nodding their heads. They read in this paper, or I might be a consultant in front of the room, say, "Yeah, these are the 3 things that we're going to— all of our goals and all of our focus, the chances are it's going to be centered around our product or our service, whatever we offer, the leadership of that, the engine behind it all, the level of operational excellence, and the level of intimacy with our customers." The killer in the paper, which like I said, I'm not saying it was missed, but it was just so profound for me. It was, um, so which one are you going to be known for then? We're going to be famous for you, like, which one? Not all three, you know, like, not, not, oh, we're going to be amazing at all three. Like, you know, Apple, there is a reason why they've got a $2 trillion market cap. There is a reason for that. You, you get all of the Apple products, you can fit them on your desk. Like, they've, they've made choices and Operationally excellent? I don't know. Like sometimes they're a bit late and sometimes it's great and sometimes it's not. I'm not sure. Customer intimacy? I suppose with the Apple ID and, you know, there's a certain closeness there. But oh wow, product leadership? Yeah. Yeah, they made their choice. And if you read Jobs' biography, it's just so evident that they're into beautiful, beautiful products and that being the leadership of it. It's astounding how many times I work with leadership teams and there's one of a couple of things go on. Either they find it difficult with the concept, you know, "What do you mean? Which one? I mean, we've got to be amazing on all three, haven't we?" Or secondly, they haven't really thought about it. They haven't really set out their stool to say that we actually are going to be a leader in one of these. That's where it begins, Gary. You know, that's where focus begins. So you know why, you know why you're into this, and you know what it is, you know the route that you're taking. So there's something really wonderful about that, those choices being made, and therefore your goals coming from it.

Yeah, because you're talking about that focus, which really makes sense, but is there something else that happens before? Like, a good example for me is you're looking at your career. You've had an amazing career. I think you started off as a in software engineering or real-time computing in avionics or something very clever. I remember exactly what it was. Yeah. Then you got into product, you were in product marketing, you were in service operations, you were customer services and HR, you're a business coach. Do you thread together all that experience to get to the focus? Is it important to have? Because I'm fascinated by your background and, and the, you know, because you've, you've kind of gone on this journey that maybe is very special to you. That makes you what you are. So what's the yin and yang to that focus?

Yeah, okay. So there's a level of specificity that I tend to work at, which helps me in the kind of role that I've got and the kind of work that I do. And I certainly don't expect others to always operate at that level. But let me give you an example of a halfway house of— and it answers your previous question as well. When we start thinking about articulation of focus. Well, rather than just articulating it as a feeling or an aspiration and just sticking with mission and vision and then all of a sudden just going straight into the equivalent of War and Peace of a strategy, how about just pulling out those goals and get those, those, those key goals and identifying them with having a start line, finish line, and a deadline. And just honestly, Gary, just that in itself— now, that's— it's not because, hey, you know, I'm an ex-engineer and apprentice rocket scientist, and that's why I get to this sort of level. It's kind of— it's human nature, isn't it? It's okay. So we've laid out— let's say that customer intimacy is the thing that we want to be We want to lead on, you know, we want to be competitive in all of these areas, but we're going to be particularly strong in customer intimacy. And leadership team says, oh, you know, we want to be known for being able to respond at a certain level, or perhaps there's a certain net promoter score. I don't know. I'd say, okay, well, let's step into that then. Where are you right now? Specifically, what's the metric? Tell us. Okay, and then you get a response from that. I said, okay, 12 months from now, Where are we going to be? What's the gap? And just even in that, from start line, finish line, deadline, the conversation changes. And it goes beyond, Gary, just how it feels and what people's aspirations are and lofty goals. It starts to get really very specific.

I like that. And what's the differentiation between the finish line and the deadline? Just for people listening.

So if I wanted to get a Net Promoter Score, for example, from 25 to 35 by December 31st, 2022. So start line is where we are now, finish line is where we want to be. So in that instance was 35, and the deadline is the date. So could use a notation X to Y by date. So it seems quite simple, doesn't it? In that, you know, you asked me quite a very— it's quite a sophisticated question almost, and I was very flattered as you asked the question about weaving my whole career, but that's a great example of using my, I suppose, an appetite for— I use that word again— the appetite for specificity, which actually clears the way, like the clouds, the fog lifts. And then you get people in a leadership room and middle management and those closest to the work go, "Ah, okay, right, got it. This is where we've been, this is where we need to get to, and this is the day." And so there's something— So on the sort of functional technical side, you know, Gary, that's That would be my kind of response to, you know, I like it, your previous question. There's a, there's a, there's like a human side to this as well, which I mean, I'm happy to pause it if you've got anything else, but there was this sort of a human element that I wanted to.

Yeah. I'd like to hear that. We kind of push for time and I've got one. I have got a big question to ask you, which maybe you can, you can weave your human side into, you know, based on all your experience, because you've got so much experience and passion, by the way. If there was one thing someone could focus on, and I know there never is, that would help them, the company accelerate, because that's part of the conversation, how they can accelerate growth and at the same time they could accelerate their careers. If there was one thing in all of your soup of experience, what would you recommend?

Intent and expectation.

Well, say more.

Without any hesitation whatsoever, this preparedness to declare your intent. 'First and foremost, this is why we're speaking today. This is why we're meeting today. This is why we're having a team meeting. This is why I'm interested in buying your company. This is why I'm interested in taking your service.' Being really clear right from the get-go what your intent is. So there's something incredibly powerful about that, often that being your opening gambit, and then Following that quickly up with the way that you lead, the way in which you conduct yourself. And that's the word expectation. Think about disappointment for a moment. Disappointment is a product of expectation. Yeah. So to become skilled in business, in your own career, the way you declare intent with authenticity, with integrity, and the way in which you clearly set and manage expectation. That's the kind of person I want to work for, or I want to work with, or I want to be with. Because I know it's, it's clear then, and I know ultimately whether I'm making a difference or not.

Yeah, and I noticed in your, in your profile you say you like working with like-minded people, so it kind of makes sense to me.

For sure. Yeah, yeah. So I don't know whether that answers your question. I, maybe I jumped in a bit quick there.

No, it's fantastic.

Really, for my whole career, that's, that's really what's Sean for me.

I think, and you said it straight away. I mean, without, as you said, without hesitation, you said that straight away. So it makes sense. Yeah. Unfortunately, we've kind of, we've got to the end of our time now. I could sit here talking to you for hours. You're so interesting. But I'm going to hand you on to George because we're interested in some of your musical thoughts to add to our playlist. Yes, George.

Yeah, that's exactly right. Thanks. And thanks, Ray, before I, before I quiz you on your music taste. Thanks so much for that because it was genuinely really interesting and motivational in many ways. Slightly controversial in other ways as well, which I very much enjoyed. So, so thanks very much. I emailed you with about 30 seconds' notice asking you to think about some of the songs and, you know, any tunes that maybe perhaps have motivated you in the past or have sort of, you know, got you through difficult times or, you know, exemplify your career in any way. We've got the Company Doctor playlist, which we ask our guests to contribute tunes to. So if you've got one or two or even three songs that you'd like to add to that, now's your chance to do so.

Yeah, sure. Well, it just so happened that as I was thinking about the themes, as it were, for this chat today, when I knew where I was going to go in many of this, actually 3 songs came to mind. First one was Push It by Salt-N-Pepa. Great. So that absolutely— I know that sounds so cheesy, but I love that. When it came out, it was just great. There was such a great energy to it. So that relates to one of one of the early points. And a friend of mine, a slightly sad story, he passed away unfortunately last year. I was his best man and we were best mates. And his favorite song was "I Can See Clearly Now." I think it was Johnny Nash. And so that relates to another element of what we'd spoken about, about clearing the fog and seeing clearly and allowing leaders and individuals to see clearly. And the third one is about people feeling like they make a difference, and it's just a cracking Smiths song, 'What Difference Does It Make?' Which was just, you know, in my formative years, that was just, that was like an earworm that was constant. So that would be the three genuine songs which have an impact on me for different reasons, but also weave through you know, the topics for today.

Terrific. Yeah, nicely, nicely brought together there. I think that's our first Smith song as well, so congratulations. Thanks for joining us on our anniversary episode as well. I'm going to be humming Push It by Salt-N-Pepa, I think, for the rest of the day, so thanks for that as well. Well done, Ray. Company Doctor Gary Gamp, thank you very much as always.

Thank you, Ray.

And thanks to everybody for listening.

Bye-bye.

Thanks for listening. We're discussing a whole range of hot topics over the cold winter months, so be sure to keep up to date by subscribing to this podcast and visiting thecompanydoctor.com, where you can make your way through our fabulous back catalog. We hope you've enjoyed the show, and see you next time.