The Secrets to Elite Performance with former Premier League Footballer, Michael Duberry #29

After all, all art is experience. Hello and welcome to The Company Doctor. In this very special episode, we're thrilled to be joined by former Leeds United and Chelsea defender Michael Dubry, who brings an elite athlete's perspective to the business landscape and discusses dealing with pressure, mastering self-discipline, and the mindset required to achieve success. Gary, over to you.

Hey Michael, thank you so much for joining this episode. Welcome to The Company Doctor. How are you?

Good to be here. I'm very well, very well. Nice sunny day today, so I'm good.

It's a beautiful day. We love it when it's sunny on a Friday. So listen, thank you so much for joining us. I think, you know, a lot of people are going to know who you are, but let's— why don't you introduce yourself and tell us what you're up to?

Okay, so for those who don't know who I am, my name is Michael Dubré. I'm a former Premier League footballer. The average professional football career lasts 8 years. Mine lasted 20, which I'm very proud of. Played for clubs including Chelsea, Leeds, Reading, all in the Premier League. Lucky enough to win some huge honors: European Cup Winners' Cup, the European Super Cup, and the English Football League Cup. So I'm very proud of that. And on retirement, I went on to qualify as an executive coach. Which, that's what I now do for a profession, for a living, as a passion, as a hobby, all one thing.

So what a great career, by the way. And, um, not many people can say that that's what they've done in their career. So yeah, we're going to dig into that, uh, Michael, as we go through. And obviously, you know, because of your background, the, the topic for today is elite performance, so it's perfect having you. Now, we're really excited to have you on this episode. And, you know, I guess my first question is going to be an obvious one, but Now, for people listening, what is elite performance from your point of view?

So, you know, an elite performer is someone that performs far superior than the rest, uh, and will be seen as in a class of their own. So, you know, an elite performance is a performance that's far superior to the rest and in the class of their own. So I think whether you're in the dressing room at sport, in the office, everyone will recognize that standout performer or that standout performance.

Okay, yeah, so it's a standout part, and, and it's interesting because, you know, obviously through this conversation we're hoping to link sport to business, and, and you're about to find out I know nothing about football, but I'm going to sound like I do for a minute. Yeah, I think that you, you had something like 500 appearances. I think you were— you had a great long career, really, as you say, considering what, what the normal length is. And you were a center-back, is that right?

Yeah, I was a central defender, yeah.

Yeah, because, because a lot of people, the uninitiated, like people like me who don't really understand football, know that we focus on the strikers because we think that's where the action is. But actually, you know, the center-back is a really key position. Can you explain the importance of that position for the team? Because I think it's really interesting.

You know, I think that, um, like any well-oiled machine, everyone has their parts and their role. And a defender is to stop goals. You know, they say that, uh, goals and strikers win games, but defenders win championships. So, you know, there are any good team that's going to win the league or have longevity needs to have a solid foundation. That's what the defense gives it. You know, you can't do anything going forward unless you have that solid base at the back, just like any business. And that, you know, you need foundations, and that's what the defense will give it— stopping the other team scoring so your team could go forward and score goals and win the game.

It's amazing, isn't it? And you know, that is so important in giving everyone else the confidence as well. You know, I was thinking about this and I do watch a lot of sport and I watch tennis as well. And I always wonder, and I thought I'd ask you this, you know, as an elite performer when you were playing in the Premier League, what happens in your head when you're like 2 or 3-nil down and there's not much time to go in the match, but it's really important to you? What happens in your head?

Well, your mindset is there's a chance to get back in it. You know, say you're 2-nil down with, say, 15 minutes to go. You're in your head, you're thinking, we get a goal now, we're back in it. So you're always trying to find that way of getting back in. You're telling yourself, we're back in it. If you're 2-0 down and, you know, there's the last seconds are running out, you're thinking, don't concede another. So you're always, you know, damage limitation, always trying to think positive. Your mind's trying to think of a way to get back into it. The one thing you don't do is just accept defeat and just lie down and, and give up. But, you know, you're always thinking, we can get back in it. We get a goal now and we're back in it. You get a goal, you're thinking, how much time is left on the clock? Let's just get— we can get this, we can get back in it.

Is that something you get taught, or is that kind of a natural thing? Were you born with that?

I think being competitive helps, and you're always trying to find— but over time, your, your leaders, your management, the, the players around you, the environment, it kind of gets you into that sort of frame of mind of there's a chance here, we're always in it as long as there's time on the clock. You know, we've got a chance, always in it.

Yeah.

And can you think of an example where you had to pull it back? You know, you were, you were behind the curve a bit and you had to pull it back, and you did. Can you remember any of that in your career?

Well, there's many games, you know. Yeah, I'm sure. But, you know, like, like, example now, you know, you're thinking that 2-0 down and, you know, you're not exactly playing well, but then you get that goal back and now it's 2-1, and now the momentum, which is, again, a huge it's undervalued momentum. Now you're thinking, we can get back in this. You know, you start thinking it's only a goal down, you know, the momentum's on you, and then you try and get another goal. You got a chance, and you got a chance, and you always got a chance. And that's you just staying in the game. And as long as you're staying in the game— and those key words as a young player, you go into a dressing room and the senior players are saying, you know, stay in the game. And you start, you know, learning it as you get older. As long as you're in the game, you know, you have a chance.

Yeah, that's really interesting, isn't it? And, and it's obviously— there's obviously pressure in there, but you, you react opposite to pressure as an elite performer, it sounds like, than people are normally under pressure, kind of give up too early. Now, I was thinking about, you know, the pressure. Now, you were playing for a team like Chelsea at some point, and when you started your career, that pressure to succeed and get into the, the first team, yeah, what was your response again as an elite performer in your early days to, you know, to that pressure?

You know that when people say pressure, it's like someone I had a conversation, someone likened it to being like, you know, someone in the army, and they go, oh my God, how'd they do that? But they geared towards it. That's where they want to be. So you want to be in the limelight, you want to be in the spotlight, you want to be in the first team, you want to be playing in front of the crowds. So, you know, all— every stage going towards that, you're training yourself towards it. Yes, pressure can get to people, but then that's why the elite and the best of the best deal with it, because it's how they frame it. If some people have to make games bigger than what they are so they can get themselves up for it. And some people dilute it, minuet in their heads, so it's not that big, so the pressure isn't on them. So however people frame it, you know, I didn't feel pressured because my thing was I was prepared for what I was going into, and I did all the work throughout the week. So come Saturday or Sunday, there was no pressure because all the hard work was done, all the preparation was done. So I didn't feel pressure. I was only pressured if I was unprepared.

Oh, that makes sense. So the prep you did, you know, you did the best you could. And, and, you know, someone mentioned the word mental toughness to me. Is there a kind of a mental toughness thing that adds to your drive?

I guess I think, I think that people talk about being resilient, and, you know, my thing is, is the mindset and the frame you, you, how you frame things. And when you get to that stage, you have to have thick skin, you have to be able to block out, you have to have this focus and having this focus to be able to block out the noise, being able to dilute and take out any information that's not necessary to the ones that you need. You know, you're playing in front of 30,000 or 60,000, not being able to block out the boos and then focus on the good things, hearing the one voice that matters, which is your coach on the sideline, your teammate. So you have to be able to focus and block things out, to mentally be able to focus and block out stuff that is no use to you, that doesn't serve you any purpose. Becomes a skill and a quality.

But you know that, you know, this is why I wanted you on the podcast, because there's a lot of people listening, uh, business-to-business people, and I do want to link it to business because if people could use that skill that you're talking about in business, it would make a massive difference to people. So my question is, when you help coach people that are in business, what advice do you give them that helps them on the journey, if you like, to becoming a lead performer?

Well, I break it down and straight away I say, you know, sports and business is so many parallels, so many similarities. You know, again, working under pressure, constant changes, competition, whether it's internal or external. So there's so many similarities that a sportsman will go through that will someone in the world of business. So straight away, the first thing I'm asking for is, you know, what is your purpose? You know, as a sports person, I did it because I loved it. Not everyone loves their job straight away. So what is your reason for doing it? Some might be financial, some might be, you know, recognition if they want to be the best. What is it? Because that's going to be the first thing that's going to help you, whatever you set your goal. Because when it's tough, and it is tough, and there's going to be no easy roads, you need to dig into that. So when someone wants to become an elite performer, the first thing they're asking— I'm asking them is, what is, what is your purpose? Why? Why are you doing it? You know, obviously everyone knows about what's your why, but what is your why? Because that's going to be the fuel that gets you from A to B. And you need to have— it needs to be strong, it needs to have longevity, it needs to have all those sort of stuff. And after that, everything else becomes not easier, but it becomes a little bit doable. Do you know what I mean? So you're doing that, you know, it's going to be, you know, have you got the self-discipline? Do you know what I mean? Because are you, are you willing to make that sacrifice because you've got a big meeting on Monday morning? You know, talk about sports people having diet, but are you just going to go and have that, that curry that might upset your stomach that now you're gonna You found out about me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's true, you know, gonna have a— gonna try that meal on, on a delivery, we're gonna try that new meal. Next minute you've got an upset stomach, you've got a big meeting. Are you going to be sacrificed to do your preparation the day before, the night before, go bed early, leave early so you don't get stuck in any traffic, set the room up, all those sort of preparation that you're going to do? So now there is no nerves because, you know, nervous is because you're underprepared, you, you left a little bit later, you're on the stuck on traffic, the trains are down, you're rushing in, you know, all those sort of stuff that means nothing because people associate with sport. But really, if you add it to what you do, you have success.

I like that. And I was reading, I think it was a blog or something you'd written, and you had something called the 5 Ps. Yeah, not putting you on the spot, but what are the 5 Ps? I think I've heard 2 of them already.

It's plan, purpose, patience, perseverance, and process. So when I talk about the, the 5 Ps, you know, plan, you know, goal setting is, is— so one thing I realized is it's, it's underused, it's undervalued. Not many people set a goal, they just day-to-day, whatever, just go with the flow, you know. I said again, we talk about purpose because that's going to help you. What are you doing it for? It's going to be the drive, it's going to, it's going to motivate you, inspire you, empower you. What is your You know, patience, because not a lot of people have patience because if they can't do it the first time, they change course. For youngsters, I say to youngsters, it's the Achilles heel of a young person is frustration. But as you get older, you know, you kind of set in your ways. You have to learn a new skill. Things are always changing— technology, ways of doing stuff. Do you have the patience to grasp it? Perseverance, because the path of what you're going to, if you want to be elite, is never going to be easy. There's going to be so many things in front of you that are going to just, you know, set you back, you know. Whether it be a boss, a team leader, you know, your teammates. It's going to be so many things, and sometimes the biggest one is your comfort zone. That's one of the ones that stop people from getting in. So you have to persevere. And then process is because you have to have faith in the process. You have to have faith in what you're doing because it's so easy to quit. And if you look at someone going on a diet, after 2 days they're like, oh, this isn't working, I'm getting back on the chips. Do you know what I mean? And, you know, or getting back on the curry as some present company not included. But, you know, they give up. So you have to like have trust in the process and what you're doing. And they're the 5 Ps. And, you know, it works. And if you use them simple as sort of a measuring tool, like where you are, it helps.

Well, I must admit that they're quite inspirational. As you were talking through them, I was thinking, oh, that's great. But probably some people are thinking, well, I love the sound of those. They're really good. But how do you train to be in business? This is to be an elite performer using some of those things because they make sense. But how do I train myself to get there?

Okay, so if I was saying to someone to be an elite performer, I wouldn't necessarily say the 5 Ps. It's a measuring tool. But to be an elite performer, I'm saying to them stuff like accountability. Are you accountable? Do you look at yourself first? Do you have— is accountability one of your strengths? Resilience. Are you resilient? I mean, meticulous. Are you— do you pay attention to detail? Do you have determination? Development? Do you always look to improve all the time? You know, I'm talking about humility. Are you humble? Because when you get that bonus, are you the one in the office going, 'Hey, I'm going down to, you know, Wagamama's,' and you're not? Yeah, yeah, I mean, so, and again, there's the alter ego. Is something that people go, 'Alter ego?' But you know, your alter ego, you can't be the same person you are at home with the kids or with your friends in, in the, in the pub. When you go to that meeting. So do you have an alter ego? Do you know how to get that alter ego out? As the reference is, you know, Bruce Wayne can't do what Batman does, and Batman can't entertain like Bruce Wayne does. So that— but he knows how to, you know, when to use Batman and when to be Bruce Wayne. So, you know, to get the job done. So what's your alter ego? So I mean, so there's, there's all these, these qualities that I, I will refer to for someone if they want to be elite performer. So the 5P is just a measuring stick, but ultimately I'm saying you the qualities you have, like discipline is a big one as well. Do you have the discipline? And some people don't.

Yeah, no, a lot of people don't, unfortunately. Yeah, no, I agree with that. You know, it's interesting, I was again looking back in your career, and I'm going to link back to this because I think what you're saying makes complete sense. They say it's quite inspirational, and it would be interesting to hear your thoughts. So you had— you talked about Achilles heel. You had an Achilles injury, didn't you, in, in '97, and you missed just the whole season, then the FA Cup. Yeah, for, for a footballer that has a short reign, that's a big deal, isn't it?

Yeah.

So how did you get up? How did you get back from that?

So when I was 21, I, I was playing the season, ruptured my Achilles, and I thought my career was over because I think the season before, England international Neil Webb ruptured Achilles and he then, I think, ended his career. So I was thinking 21, end of my career. But luckily medical science had advanced and he moved on and I was able to come back. But then I had to work hard because just like in sport and in business, you know, standing still, you know, you're going backwards because everyone else is moving forward. So while everyone else is developing and moving forward, I now have to— that's how I refer to resilience. You know, when you come back from— resilience for me is like when you come back a better version of yourself. So I can't come back the same version because I'll be further behind. So I have to come back an improved version of what I— when I got injured. So it's about working hard. I'm ready. Can see that what the competition is doing, how they are. So it's always a benchmark. So when I'm in the gym rehabbing, I can see how far everyone else is. That's my measuring stick. That's what I have to get back to. So now I'm determined to say, you know what, I want to get back into this team. I still want to be the best young player in the country.

Did you ever have doubt?

When I ruptured my Achilles, I was worried. When I was coming back, you're looking, thinking, because sometimes as well as you can do, it's up to someone else whether they pick me. So it's an opinion base, isn't it? So I have to make sure I change his mind, but I can only change his mind while I'm training, while everyone else is playing. So is there doubt? I never doubted my ability. I always have that self-belief in myself that I'm the best defender in this club, and I play like it and I train like it. So for me, I had to try and persuade him.

Yeah, but you know, you speak with confidence and drive, you know, and, and that's why I'm always interested where that comes from. But what you're saying, a lot of it comes from the purpose and the fact that this is something you've always wanted to do and you really want to do it. Can you think about, you know, from your experience on the pitch, are there things that have helped you in your business life to inspire others because of that experience?

I think my whole, my whole career is what I just take it and put it into my coaching work now because I have the same qualities. You know, I sit here and say to anyone that I believe I am out there in what I do, I'm the best executive coach. No one can talk, or no one can coach elite performance better than I can. And I, and I say that with anyone with confidence, not an arrogance, because sometimes confidence and arrogance gets mixed up, and that's just someone's interpretation. But I believe that I'm the the best executive coach that could help someone with elite performance and come in and create someone to become an elite performer, give them the insight that no one else can. So as a, as a young player, as a player, I have that belief in myself. Didn't say I was the best player in the team. I believed I was the best defender, and I offered them what I give this team no one else could. And I played like it, and I work on it. You know, people find their niches and find what they're good at, and that's what I've done in this, in what I've done here. I didn't just say I'm best executive coach because there's lots of them and everyone has their specialties. But in elite performance and getting the best out and giving someone a different way of seeing things, yeah, I don't think there's no one, you know, that can challenge me in that. And I, and I stand behind it.

I know, I'm getting the passion. And if you look back on your career, what was the highlight that's a real standout for you in your whole career?

You know, there's, there's a few. Funny enough, I got asked this question the other day, and, you know, I look at my debut, the start of my career, huge thing. 18, now I'm playing in Chelsea's first team. Then I won my first trophy at 21. Like, you know, I was a North London boy, so I always see the Twin Towers of Wembley. Now I'm walking up them steps and lifting it. Amazing, do you know what I mean? And now I'm playing with World Cup winners. And there's always been some landmark moments that I think, wow, you know, playing for England for Under-21s. I didn't quite make the full team, but there's no slight on that because I was competing with some of the best players of my generation, you know, at the time. But there's some landmark who I think, yeah, that's the thing for me.

It's fantastic. As you were saying it, you know, the old huckles going on my arm. Looking back on your career, knowing what you know now, because you've had the chance to sort of look in your Premier career but also in your business career, would you have done anything differently knowing what you know now?

Well, you know what, it's funny enough, I had this question, I asked it to someone else and someone else asked it to me. Do you know, if I'm honest, I would have put even more time on my craft. I worked hard and I did it, but I would have spent even more time perfecting my skills. And then that's what I would have done. And little small bits like maybe would have done yoga, brought yoga into it, would have maybe got a private chef to do my diet so I had even more longevity. Little small things that I know now where that you see people doing for longevity and things like that. I don't have many regrets. I wouldn't change things. I think changing one thing has a domino effect, but just little small additions like perfecting my craft even more and, you know, little small things like yoga.

It's interesting, you know, it's a bit of a testament to you because I'm asking an elite performer what they could have done better. And I guess the natural reaction is I can always do better. And that's what you've just said. Which I think is amazing. Yeah, as you said, you want to change the whole dimension of what you did, but you know, you, you wanted to work even harder, and it sounds like you work pretty hard anyway.

Yeah, a bit like, even, even say work a bit smarter. I would have said work, I would work smarter with, with it, with the time.

That's fantastic. And I always ask my guests this question, I'm going to ask it to you. If you could just give 3 tips to someone, I'm thinking about someone in business that wants to become over time an elite performer, they've got the right mindset.

Yeah.

What if you could give them 3 tips, which is not easy, I know, but what would you— what tips would you give them?

One is work at your craft. Whatever it is you do, work at that, perfect that, develop that constantly. The other is have that self-belief and confidence in who you are. And the other is to be humble with whatever you do, because it's always, you know, it's always going to keep you The best thing for me is, is people to say I'm still the same person that I was when I was at school, to be humble through the ups and downs, because people are more willing to help a humble person than the arrogant person who's successful. So just, just to be humble. And if I can throw one in, it's just to keep being authentic, authentic to yourself.

That's great advice. Another question— coming to the end of the questions because then I'm going to find out about your musical taste. But I work with a lot of businesses around the world, and there's a bit of— people are polarized because it's a difficult world that we're in. The last couple of years has been pretty tricky for people, and some people have their heads down. And I think what you're talking about is keeping your head up, right? What advice would you give to someone who's kind of a bit battle-hardened, you know, been through it a little bit, might have lost their work or their job and lost their mojo a little bit? What advice would you give someone like that who's got their head down?

So someone who's been, you know, say like beaten up and down and there's no way out. What can you— like, to seek the positives in it, you know, you might have family, you might have someone looking up to you, someone looking for you to be inspiration. Do you know what I mean? Just, just find the drive. Like, find out what you love doing and start with that. Find something you love doing and try and turn that into, you know, your passion into, into something. Do I mean, don't, don't let someone else's decision be the reason that you are where you are. Like, you know, it's on your terms. I mean, if you want to stop, let it be on your terms.

Well, that's really good advice. And the last question, then I will go to musical taste, which is around purpose, because I really resonated with that. Purpose is a big thing, particularly in business, and people either, you know, they, they wait for the company to tell them their purpose. But what do you advise people in business? How do they go and find their purpose? Because look, you want to be a footballer It's, you know, you know what you want, right? But what about if you're in business and it's not that exciting? How do you go and find your purpose?

So say, for example, you're in a job and you're in a job because, just because, not because you love it, because you're good at it. That's where some people find themselves there, just because they're good at it. Okay, so what is the reason that you get up every day for it? It could be, say, with Gary Gamp, passionate about it. You're not passionate about, you know, crunching numbers or doing the office. So what is it? So it might be financial. It's because, you know what, I want to give my kids and my wife the best house in the street. So it might be financial. It might be a promise. You might have promised your late nan that you're going to be the biggest guy in the city and be the successful businessman. It might be an obligation. It might just be recognition because actually I want to be known as the best businessman that come out of my area. So there's always something you can find that drives you. So when you're down and the boss is not giving you a great review, you're thinking to yourself, you know what, forget that because I want to put my wife in the best house and the kids, my kids put the best education. So I'm going to keep going to get the bonuses to fulfill what I want to do.

That's brilliant, Michael. Thank you so much. That's really inspirational. And thank you for joining us today. So I've got the one question about your musical taste and then we'll wrap up for today.

I know this is the hardest bit.

We just explain to people, we, for all our guests, we collect a track that's either inspirational or just something that you like that we add to our— we've got a playlist for the Company Doctor. So what are you going to go for, Michael?

Oh, it's a— music is always a hard one. So I'm going to just going to go for something simple. It's the top of my head. I mostly come off this and go try and email you. Can I change the track? I'll go for one. The other, they come into my head actually because I saw the shirt. The Bob Marley one, is it 'Three Little Birds'?

Yes, love that. We'll definitely add that to the playlist. That's fantastic.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All my other ones had swear words in.

We'll do the radio edit. Thank you so much for joining us today. It was really inspirational. I really appreciate it. And we look forward to seeing you again soon. So thank you.

Thank you. Been brilliant. Thank you for having me.

Good fun. Thanks.

Bye.

If you enjoyed this episode, head on over to thecompanydoctor.com to listen to previous episodes, subscribe for new episode notifications, and to make your way through The Company Doctor's bonus content. Thanks for listening, and see you next time.