Walk & Talk 2: The Art of Retaining Talent #92

After all, all art is experience.

We're rolling, we're rolling, and we're in the woods and we're walking. Oh, this is a walk and talk in the woods.

After all, it is a walk and talk. So what else are we going to do other than walk and talk? We're in the woods. It's very exciting. We've got a great topic to cover today. It's all about retention beyond the paycheck. Innovative strategies for employee retention.

How about that? It's good. It's heavy. It's a Friday. By the way, you'll notice I put my dark glasses on today because last time you looked a bit cooler than me.

Yeah, we can't have that, can we? That's not gonna—

And we're in the woods. For those of you watching, we're in the woods. I don't know why and what this means, but I'm slightly scared.

We've certainly made it more difficult for ourselves, haven't we? Because there are logs in the way. There's rough terrain.

It's rough terrain. It's all about retention. See how we can keep it.

But, you know, no Teslas this time.

No Teslas.

Nothing to get killed by. Swings and roundabouts, lots of laughter, sort of a bang just then.

Do you think it's gunshots? Which way should we go, George? Let's go this way.

Well, I'll follow your lead.

Oh, good. Okay, let's do this. It's a bit muddy, but we'll keep going.

But let's kick off, shall we? Yes, please do. Because it's an interesting topic. It's, you know, I think a lot of people have lots of different opinions on it. And I think I'll kick off just in terms of sort of setting the scene, understanding the retention challenge that people face. What are the most common reasons that employees leave a company beyond just salary concerns? Watch where you're going.

Oh, now we're going to navigate the mud. You need to go to the left of it. Yeah, well, that's a great question, and it's got a big answer, as you'd expect from me. But before I get to the big answer, I would say that most people leave because of their boss, right? And what I mean by that is I did a poll actually quite a long time ago. LinkedIn used to do some quite good polls, and on that I did a poll about the re— the main reasons people leave their jobs actually. All right. And 80% of people said they left their jobs because of their boss. Sometimes it didn't get called that, it was something about, you know, purpose or not having direction or not being acknowledged and valued. Yeah, but the bottom line was they left because of their boss.

So that's the main, that's the key thing, you think?

Well, that's why I want to kind of explain the long version, because that's a bit of a lazy answer on my behalf. Sorry about that. No worries. Because the truth is what, what it actually means It's easy to blame the boss and go, ha, it's the manager's fault, which it is, by the way. If you're a manager listening, it's your fault. But the main reason is just getting to understand people and what motivates them. So a good example would be, for those of you listening that are managers, think about your, the two people in your team that you know the best. Yeah. Are you really knowing them really well? How well do you really know them? Can you think of someone George that you work with that you're closest to? Don't have to mention their names, don't embarrass you. Sure, sure. How well do you really know them? Yeah, about them personally. Do you know what their ambitions are? Do you know about their family? So what their hobbies are?

Um, I think maybe one or two, but probably not enough.

Do you know what they want to do next in their careers?

No, but I'm not their boss.

You're not their boss, so it's fine. But that, that's the issue. So a good example would be, for me, a lot of people think salespeople are motivated by money. Yeah. And some of them are absolutely— of course they are.

Yeah.

But a lot of them are not. They're motivated by making a difference or they've got other personal goals that are important to them. You know, there's a guy I work with who he absolutely loves watches. That's a really important thing for him. Okay. And he'd like to invest in watches and have watches and, you know, but you wouldn't know that unless you got to know someone well enough, right? Yeah.

Interesting.

Why am I saying this, you wonder? Why am I asking you? Why am I talking about people's goals? In this conversation. Does it answer your question or not really?

No, I think it does. I mean, I think, uh, you know, people leave, as you say, in the first instance because they might not get on with their boss. But then what's the issue there? Their boss doesn't really know what motivates them.

That's one of them. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's one of the issues. I've got another big one, but I don't know what questions are coming, so I'm saving it.

Okay, you say hang on to it and then maybe throw it at me towards the end. Um, in your opinion, do you think employee expectations around retention have changed? In recent years, especially sort of post-pandemic.

I really do. I think it was quite interesting during the pandemic because the kind of the trigger point for me, if you like, was in the hospitality sector because a lot of people in hospitality left because they, you know, they couldn't work obviously, but they started to realize that, you know what, I don't get paid very much and I don't get treated very well. Yeah. And there must be something better. I'm not saying in all cases. This is not a diss to the hospitality industry, but just people generally started to stop and think and question, had time to think about it.

Yeah.

And they realized that actually, you know what, maybe there's another place to work. And don't mean just in hospitality, but in most industry. And so, and people have become, you know, there's two sides to this. Some people have become entitled.

Yeah.

I've seen a lot of that. But some people quite rightly are questioning their personal life and their work life and their home life and the whole ways of working, because the future work has changed. We've done podcasts on it, right?

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that it's almost like a compounded version of the fact that people used to, you know, you choose a career, you choose a company, and you'd stay with it for a job for life.

Yeah, thank God we don't have that anymore.

Well, absolutely. And, you know, now it's sort of 3, 4 years feels like quite a long time to be working for the same company, and many people's eyes, I'd say.

And actually, it's interesting you should say that because I, I watch— I work with a lot of people, as you know, and people that have worked in a company a long time, when they leave, they tend to move a lot. Yeah. Because the big, big step is to move in the first place. But it seems to be once they've left, they're kind of trying to keep on trying to find something better. Yeah. So move a lot.

I suppose they do it once and they think, oh, that wasn't, that wasn't too hard.

Yeah. But then they're not settled because they're like, you keep trying to find the magic answer. And it's, you know, the truth that everyone knows, the truth is there isn't one.

Yeah. It's a difficult balance to get, isn't it?

It is.

And what do you think businesses can do to sort of foster a culture that makes employees feel feel a bit more valued and a bit more motivated? What can they do?

Yeah, no, I've always felt that, you know, our job as a manager is to attract the best people but to retain them as well.

Yeah.

No, I feel that if, if we can't hang on to people, it's our fault, we failed. I feel the same about customers. If we're not keeping customers and giving them what they want, then we— it's up to us and we've failed. Yeah. And I see a lot of people that are too busy to give it the time to nurture it. Do you remember, um, or you're too young to remember Tamagotchis?

No, I'm not.

Okay, well, you've got to treat people like Tamagotchis, you know. You've got to feed them, you've got to water them, yeah, you've got to stroke them a little bit. You're going to do what with them?

I think I killed all of my time.

Well, you don't want to do that. And that's a lot of managers kill their Tamagotchi. You don't want to kill your Tamagotchi.

No. Okay, well, that leads nicely on to my next question because I was going to ask what role does leadership play in employee retention and what can managers do to improve their impact?

Well, I could— I'm going to use my little thing I want to talk to you about. Hopefully don't ask me this later. Here, instruction to any manager, please don't do this. Do not micromanage people. Put your hand up personally if you like to be micromanaged, and I think no one put their hand up. No one likes to be micromanaged. The biggest reason people leave their jobs is because their bosses, because they're being micromanaged.

Yeah.

And it's not a good feeling. I've got a story which I've told before, but I remember my wife had a back operation. Yeah. And she gave me projects to do on the weekend because she wasn't well enough to do them. And I know how to do projects, I'm good at them. She kept on checking, have I done it yet? And it was not a good thing. I found out she was a micromanager. Didn't like it. Don't do it.

Sorry, Jane. No, you're lovely. So the role leadership plays, you think, is, is like you have to be a bit more nurturing and allowing people to, to sort of get on with.

Yeah, I'm not saying, by the way, don't, don't confuse what I'm saying with being soft and fluffy, because if anyone knows me, I'm not soft and fluffy. But I think the thing is, you want to get the best out of people. When you hire people, you're hiring smart people, so treat them like they're smart. Don't treat them like they're stupid. Yeah, give them a chance, let them make mistakes. But if they make mistakes, pick them up for it. Why not?

Of course. I'm seeing a lot of that on LinkedIn at the moment. A lot of people are telling me, you know, I, I've hired you not to sit at a desk from 9 to 5, but because I know that you can do the job and I'm going to sort of let you get on with it, and people are sort of using that as a badge of honor. I'm about to be hit by a bike.

Well, it's better than the car.

It is better than a car.

Keep walking, don't be scared of it, it's gonna be fine. There we go, nice, still alive. Nice bike. Yeah, um, yeah, and it's interesting, isn't it? Again, I don't, I don't want people to get confused with, you know, we're not being lax or everything's Happy Valley and it's all okay. Yeah, but give people a bit of rope, you know, give them a chance to, um there's a book by Daniel Pink called Drive 2.0, and it kind of is the modern version of what motivates people, because everyone used to talk about carrot and sticks, which is still valid. You know, people get motivated by a kick up the ass or a goal that they're driving. But the more important goals for people are actually— the first one is being the master at something. If you're good at something and you like doing it, you'll do a good job of it because you enjoy it. Yeah. Now, if you think about your hobbies and you're really good at them, and you enjoy doing them, and therefore you'll do a good job.

Yeah.

Now, it doesn't mean in work you can give people the opportunity to do everything they like doing, because sometimes it's not relevant. But in principle, play people to their strengths. Okay. And then the second one is purpose is so important to people. Now, what people want to know— what they do matters. Am I making a difference? It doesn't matter. It doesn't have to be a high-flying job.

Yeah.

But, you know, the story about Someone asked the caretaker in NASA, you know, what he does, and he says, I help put people on the moon.

Yeah.

Because everyone's in the team and they're making a difference, but that he knows his purpose. All right, there's an easy one in there, but what is the purpose of your team and your company? And do you feel that what you do matters? Because that's really important to people.

And on that note, how important is recognition? Because, you know, on the one hand, someone could be making a massive difference, but if they're not being given that recognition they won't realize it and that, you know, they might become frustrated.

Yeah. So in that, in that survey, that poll that I did, when the managers fought for people leaving, recognition was probably the most important one.

All right.

And it's not financial recognition actually, is that just someone saying you did a good job? If, if I ask people, and I do this a lot when I do training, put your hand up if you've ever received either a note— and I said a letter, that makes me sound really old, doesn't it— an email or a text or Yeah. Even a certificate of something you did well from your boss. Yeah. People put their hands up and then I say, keep your hand up if you still got it. And pretty much everybody keeps their hand up. I've got something on my desk at home.

Yeah.

That came from my first job. I don't work there anymore. I don't even, I work for myself. But those, those things matter. So sometimes just saying to someone they've done a good job or recognizing them in public or in a genuine way.

Yeah.

No, we all crave a bit of, not all the time. We don't have to be patted on the back all the time.

No, but occasionally.

Well, once would be nice.

Yeah, once would be nice, absolutely. We're sort of reaching the halfway point here and I wonder whether—

What, you mean you want to turn?

Maybe we should turn.

No, keep walking.

Maybe more successfully than us. No, we're going to be good.

We're going to keep going. We'll be lost in the woods, but we can always send out a beacon.

That's true. And at least this will be a nice sort of reminder, a memento for people.

Yeah, like—

When we inevitably get lost forever.

If people are watching and they notice it gets dark, it means we got lost.

This will be the last thing we ever record.

Oh, it was us in the woods.

Just want to talk a little bit about mentorship because I know that's quite a big thing as well. I know you have some strong feelings about mentoring. What role do you think mentorship plays in retention, and how can businesses implement successful mentoring programs?

Are you gonna ask me about coaching as well? Is this just only about mentoring?

Mentoring only, but you can throw in some coaching.

No, it's okay because, you know, you know, I had a bit of an epiphany, mate. That's why you're asking me. Should we go right here, George? Yeah, why not? Um, we're going downhill now, guys. This is treacherous, but we're okay. We're live broadcasting.

Very good.

Um, yeah, I used to kind of ignore mentoring because I do a lot of training, so there's always a lot of discussion and training around coaching, how to be a good coach, and the difference between coaching and mentoring. And because of that, I kind of belittled but just didn't understand the importance of mentoring until we did that podcast with Andy Laparta.

Right.

Big up Andy on this one.

Yeah.

And, and the difference is, you know, coaching is where you ask people questions and get them to come out with the answers themselves. But mentoring is more about leading people, showing them the way through. You know, a good example would be if you're in a role and you want someone to shadow you or something to that effect. Yeah, you have the chance to impart your knowledge to someone else and, you know, get them to get inside your head a bit. But the, the The bad side of mentoring is if you, if you're too strong, you end up micromanaging.

Yeah.

But, but just to show some of the ropes, you know, some people might call it an apprenticeship or something. So I think mentoring is really important and I think it's underrated.

Okay.

So I'd like to see more people formally mentoring people and you need to tell people that you are mentoring them.

Yeah.

Because they will really benefit if they're open-minded enough anyway, they will benefit from it.

And is that whose responsibility do you think that is to implement that? Is that the leadership team or is that, can anyone sort of say, right, I'm going to take it on myself to—

that is such a great question. Well, because we're not in a perfect world, you could say the manager's job is to make sure they mentor their team. But I also, you know, I'm a strong believer in creating your own path. So yeah, if you want to get on in life, stand up and be counted. If your manager's not mentoring you, so be it, but it's up to you. So if you want to sit there and complain about it, then you won't get the benefit of it. Yeah. And likewise, if you're a manager, you should absolutely be mentoring people in your team. Because they need, they need the benefit of your wisdom and experience, right?

Yeah, absolutely. This is all great stuff, by the way.

Thanks very much for coming, Fraser. You're excellent. I'm not even lost yet, are we?

Well, I have no idea.

It could be. You know why it's dark? Because I've got my sunglasses on.

Yeah, I knew it. But we have to look cool.

We are, and we're doing it.

And we really do.

Kicking it right now.

Another question which I know gets you going is around sort of work-life balance and flexibility. And I wonder what you think, or how important flexibility is, whether that's sort of remote working, hybrid models, or flexible hours. How much do you think that sort of thing these days impacts on retention?

It's a very polarizing question, really. And I think, you know, we've done a few episodes on working from home and hybrid working and stuff like that.

Yeah.

Let me just try and break it down a bit. There's a massive benefit for people in their careers from collaboration, from mentoring, from getting together and having a good time and, and treat, you know, not just having a kind of transactional life at work. Yeah. I'm not saying we have to go out partying all the time, but there's, there's so much benefit. I get personally a real buzz out of meeting up with people and going into London or getting in an office and seeing people in normal life. Yeah. On the other hand, there's a massive benefit to people having flexibility because other things are important. They might need to pick up the kids or they've got a hobby and this, you know, and having a balance of those things I think is really important. Yeah. In our business, we've, you know, we've moved office recently and we've moved to kind of working Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and having a collaboration day once a month because, you know, we, I think we went too far the other way where we were so flexible that we were missing out on that collaboration and benefit of working together and hugging each other.

I'm not quite.

And so I, I think like anything, there's a balance, but the world has changed. Yeah, I don't think we should put the genie back in the bottle. It is what it is, but I think people should not underestimate the power of being together. Yeah, so if you can give someone flexibility but make sure they're mainly together, I think you're on to a winner.

Nice. Yeah, that's a good— another tricky balance to get, but if it's done right, it's definitely powerful. In fact, I'd say some of the places that I've worked at, the places I've loved the most, it hasn't been necessarily because I've done the best work, or it's a company that I've most respected. It's just been that the people have been terrific and I've wanted to collaborate with them and spend time with them.

And that's a good point, George. Don't you find that people normally don't leave a company because they like working with the people? Yeah, they leave because of their boss. They stay because of the people. How about that? That's a t-shirt right there.

Yeah, that is a t-shirt. And this is a sort of small stream that we've come across.

Well, I think we're big enough to just step over this stream, George.

Yeah, in a single bound.

Yeah, nothing's gonna get in our way from that.

Ready? Yeah, let's go.

Stream, people. Yeah. And we're still alive.

Great, great stuff. What do you think are some ways in which businesses can support employees' wellbeing to improve job satisfaction and loyalty? We see a lot of that, don't we? You know, there's sort of special off-sites and all this sort of stuff and, you know, promotion of wellbeing generally. Do you think that's important to whether or not people decide to stay at a company or is it a passing trend or fad, do you think?

Yeah. I do think it's important, but I think it gets exaggerated. So Let's get back to basics. The basics are you should really get, spend the time to get to know people. If you're a manager, to get to know people and understand them.

Yeah.

It doesn't mean you need to bend or give into them anyway, but it makes much more sense if you understand where people are coming from. And I think in, you know, in the past people used to think about, they used to say things like, you know, don't bring your home into work and vice versa. Well, that's nonsense. You know, if you're having problems at home, you can have problems at work. And if you're having problems at work, you're going to be unhappy at home, right?

Yeah.

So people are one, they're not half and half. And also I do think, you know, with the change since COVID people are starting to understand that it's okay to have a life outside of work and you don't have to be wearing your power suit and being all in.

Yeah.

So I think that's a starting point. And therefore, you know, and now things like people's well-being and mental health has become— has come to the fore. I think it— I don't think it should be an excuse, but I think genuinely it should be considered as in the mix. Yeah, and I think if you do that, if you have balance— look, our job as managers is to retain, and therefore people need to enjoy their job and the things they're doing, even when they're difficult things.

Yeah.

And it's okay to have high standards as long as people are treated well and it's consistent. Like with kids, you don't want to like be grumpy one day and happy the next, right?

Yeah.

So it's not how it really works with people. We'll turn around here because someone is—

okay, great, smoking. We don't get into that. No.

Um, yeah, so I just think if you— I think people should just be more considered. Yeah, why don't you think it through? And because we're so busy, I think people don't take the time to really think through implications of their actions or, or plan things. It's a bit like when people go on holiday, some people just rock up to a country and hope it's going to be okay and have a terrible time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, shouldn't you take the time to understand who you've got, what sort of things you could be doing? Is there a better way to do things? If you've got a growth mindset, is there a better way to Yeah, yeah, make the team have a, you know, because people are more productive if they're happy. Yeah, there were some stats and I can't remember them now because I'm on the hoof, but something like the engagement goes up by 60% if people are happy at work. Wow, 60%.

Yeah, that's massive. And you know, a free gym membership isn't going to do that, is it? It might be part of an overall sort of strategy, but you know, having a meditation room or something along those sorts of lines alone isn't going to keep people happy and keep employees.

It isn't. And it's the same with money. The money is a hygiene. People need to earn what they think they're worth to some extent, or what the market is willing to pay. But it doesn't motivate people because people get used to what they're earning. And therefore, like, you can find someone that's really wealthy. Yeah, they're just broke at a high level, right? So money isn't a motivator. You do, you, you need to be paid market rate, but at the end of the day, those aren't the things that make the difference.

Nice, I like that. I've got a couple more for you.

I'm loving this, George. It is getting dark. I'm going to take my glasses off in a minute.

We're going back over the stream. I love it. In a second. Bubble Brook. But how do you think small businesses with limited budgets for things like this can compete with larger corporations when it comes to employee retention strategies? Over the stream we go.

Over the stream.

Splish, splash.

I, in a way, I think it's easier for a smaller company because you're— yeah, no, you didn't expect that, did you? No. Because you're more empowered to do what you need to do, and you're probably thinking more about it. Because as you said before, George, it's not about, you know, getting the gym membership and the— I don't know, the pool table. Yeah, it's actually about making people feel part of a family and making them feel that what they do matters and they're making a difference. So if you can encourage that kind of sense of purpose so people do feel that they're they are involved in shaping the future. I don't mean in a kind of high-level way. I think that you force a bad team together. Now, it doesn't work with everybody, and sometimes it doesn't work out, right? Then not everyone wants— not everyone understands your purpose and dream that you want to have as a small business. But I think because it's smaller, people can affect the outcome better. Yeah, interesting.

Yeah, because you assume that these big shiny Amazons and all these sorts of places, because they can offer people the moon on a stick, they're gonna, they're gonna sort of win when it comes to retention. But yeah, I think, I think you're right.

I'm not saying it doesn't work in a big company because I see so many great cultures. It's just this, if you think it just on a numbers level, when you get above 30 people, it's hard to maintain a culture. You know, Richard Branson, uh, is famous for spinning off a company when it gets to 300 people because the culture really changes when it gets big. Yeah. So now that's why I think a departmental head needs to really focus on their purpose. Because you can still be linked to what the company is trying to do, but at least it's small enough that it matters with your group.

Yeah, interesting. This might sound like a really obvious question, so we can just bat it away.

I love an obvious question.

But how can businesses measure the success of their retention efforts and adjust their strategies accordingly? And I imagine you're probably just going to say, well, if everyone leaves, then your strategy is rubbish.

Well, actually, no, I'm going to say something you're not expecting, which I like to do. I think you do, you need people to leave. Okay. You need to have a level of leavers in your business. Because if no one leaves, you're going to be stale. Right. I'm not saying I want people to leave, but the truth is you do need a small level of leavers because you need to get new blood in. You need to get some different thinking. Some people are past their sell-by date.

Yep.

But attrition is, you know, so attrition is, is good in small numbers, but not too small. And if it's too big, it's a problem as well. So my measure for me is, you know, do you have attrition? You should have at least 10% attrition.

Okay.

But if you've got 20 or 30% attrition, then maybe there's a problem.

Right, okay. So actually, that's not a measure necessarily of what your attention's like.

It's more just It's the other way around. It's like, I want to measure— actually, it's a good thing if some people leave.

Yeah.

So you do need it. You need some attrition, just not too much. And so your measure is leaving and coming and going. Okay. Yeah, I know it's thrown you, hasn't it?

It has thrown me. Yeah, but I like it. I have one last one, and it's, uh, because we're going uphill now.

I mean, literally not, not on this podcast, obviously.

We'll be out of breath. Um, but it's the classic Gamp-esque, uh, closing question. Which is— and it doesn't have to be 3, as I said last time.

Oh, you want takeaways on this, on the hoof?

Yeah, which is tricky, I know.

Jesus, trying to climb the mountain and hold a selfie stick. You're really unkind.

It's not easy. But even if it's just one, is there a golden rule, or are there 3 or 2 key things that when it comes to retention, I'd say especially in the eyes of managers and hiring managers, that you think moves the dial in terms of employee retention? I do, actually.

Great. And one of them is— this will help people have got— if you've got kids, and this is not— a lot of you don't have kids, so if you've got kids and it was your kid, how would you want them to be treated? And what gets you happy and sad when they come home and tell you what happened at work? Yeah, that's a great measure. Or if you don't like kids or have kids and you can't eat a whole one, think about your best boss. You ever had, what was it about your boss that they did that really made them your best boss? And are you someone's best boss? That's a great measure.

Yeah.

Of whether you're doing it right or not. That's great.

Great takeaway.

You like it?

Yeah. Big fan of that. I think, yeah, it's sort of classic sort of empathy, isn't it?

Yeah.

Put yourself in the shoes of the person that you're trying to—

it's the real test, isn't it? Because if you feel that you have to be macho and hard to be successful, it's not true. No, it works for some, but if you want to enjoy yourself for work, that it's not going to be a great journey for someone. And if it was one of your kids, yeah, that was in that environment, how would you feel about it? Nice.

Boom! I like that. Thank you very much, Gary.

That was great. What a lovely walk in the woods, wasn't it? Nice. Can you hear the birds tweeting?

I think it was actually nicer than last time. Do you?

Yeah, that's judgmental of you.

Fewer cars, safer, safer.

The Bailing Brook.

Yeah, the Bailing Brook, the bike. Other than that, I think it's been—

let's keep doing it.

It's been great. Yeah. Thank you very much for listening and we will see you next time.

See you soon.