Who Rocked The Boat: Navigating the Inevitability of Change with FranklinCovey’s VP, International Direct Offices, Curtis Bateman #38

After all, all art is experience.

Hello and welcome to The Company Doctor. This episode, we're very pleased to be joined by Franklin Covey's VP International Direct Offices, Curtis Bateman, whose new book, Who Rocked the Boat? A Story About Navigating the Inevitability of Change, has just been released. Today, he talks to Gary about his experiences with Franklin Covey, how micromanagement kills creativity, and why the naysayers are just as important as evangelists when it comes to change plans. Gary, Curtis, over to you.

Curtis, thanks so much for joining this episode of The Company Doctor.

Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

It's great to have you on. And, you know, the topic today is Who Rocked the Boat, which interestingly enough is the title of your new book release. So, so I thought maybe a good way to start, because this episode is all about change, for people that are listening, maybe the best place for us to start is for you to introduce yourself. A quick intro on Curtis and maybe a bit of background to how you got to here.

Yeah, that's a good question because change is woven throughout. I started out in technology early on, and as I was implementing technology for publishing companies, I realized it was leading to significant organizational change because of what we were doing. And so after spending some years doing that, that's when I moved into the space of intentionally focusing on change. I partnered with Dr. Spencer Johnson, the guy that wrote "Who Moved My Cheese?" and spent some years working with him, which was absolutely fantastic, and realized that the solutions he offered were really targeted at individuals. And when organizations needed help, they would get stuck. And so we started to add to the body of work around change and expand from individual into organizational and team change. I spent about 10 years doing that, which was as a small boutique company, really flexible and nimble. We learned a lot.

You look too young, by the way, Curtis, to be 10 years.

I know, that was— we're 25 years into my career at that point. But then I had the really good fortune of encountering FranklinCovey at a time when they were ready to purchase my organization and bring us on board. And so we brought our change practice inside Franklin Covey about 8 years ago, and we've had the real privilege of working with Franklin Covey to take the change content and start to move it at much larger scale. Franklin Covey is just a big enough organization. There's quite a bit more reach and global access.

That's amazing. And what a great story. So change within change for the change agent.

I love that. There you go. I had to live through it myself. That's right.

I've got lots of questions for you, by the way, coming up. Curtis, hopefully you don't mind. I actually, I thought I'd kick off with one question because I thought I'll ask the change expert, what the hell does change mean to you and why should it matter?

Sorry about that. Oh, that's a good one. That's a good one. You know, when we say what is change or what does it mean, it's generally this moving from the current state that we're in towards something different. And for individuals, That can be both exciting and exhilarating if it's a change I choose. I choose to move to a new house, I choose to change job, I choose to go to university, I choose to get married. When we initiate something like that, that is a change. So we're changing from the way things were to something new. That's generally pretty exciting. Inside organizations, that's a little bit different experience because sometimes the change feels like it's being done to us. And so, um, in either instance though We're being pushed out of what we might call a comfort zone or a status quo into a new state, and we have to figure out how to deal with that.

Okay. I've got lots of questions that are coming up that will dig into that topic. And, you know, I work with lots of companies around change. And so the audience is a business, business audience, but it's, you know, this is very topical, obviously, right now in the current climate. Interesting thing. I've got a question for you before we get into the book, because, you know, I read the book. It's an amazing book, and I think it people will really be able to relate to it and get there quickly. But before I get to the book, I was looking at a comment that you made recently on LinkedIn about a blog that Stephen Covey had written on navigating change in business. And you talked about the changeless core. We're at the mercy of it. What is the changeless core?

What is it? You know what? It's so funny you mentioned that. I was reviewing my LinkedIn post this morning and I saw that. And I was thinking, I was just reflecting on that. Yeah, so it's very timely. I guess that's why you publish on LinkedIn, so that you can prompt people to ask about it. So Dr. Covey is, you know, from my interpretation, I guess one of the great things about his writing is he talks about principles. And I think that gives each of us some latitude to interpret what it means for us. But for me, when we talk about a changeless core, we're starting to get back towards principles values, things that are fundamental to us as humans. And that's not the same for everybody. It's quite different. So for me, for example, if I think about what really matters to me professionally, I care about helping individuals and leaders grow. That's a changeless core for me. It doesn't matter what job I'm doing. It doesn't matter if I'm working retail. It doesn't matter if I'm working in engineering or at Franklin Covey, my personal value is trying to help people grow. And so Dr. Covey's referring to that in terms of changeless core. What is it that stays fixed or permanent for each one of us? That takes a little work to discover. It's not always front and center for people. It does take some time and effort to get really clear on that for each person.

Yeah, but I like it because I think, yeah, everyone automatically thinks that change changes everything, but what you're suggesting is that some things don't. You've got a core of things that don't. Again, one more question before we go to the book. Most people think change paralyzes us. It's on that with the same kind of thoughts. But I've seen some people that really, really thrive during times of change. What's going on and how should we behave during those times? Because it doesn't paralyze everyone, does it?

It doesn't, but it does paralyze a large percentage of people. So the question is, Why does that happen? And for some, why does that not happen? I think there is this basic survival instinct that each of us has, right? Call it evolution or whatever you want to call it, that causes us to be protecting ourself. And because change creates that change in context, something's happening that's new and unknown, for many of us it causes us a little bit of an allergic reaction. And when that's the case, it can feel paralyzing. In an organizational context, since a lot of the listeners are in businesses and leaders, when change happens to our employees, it feels imposed. And when change feels imposed, it's forced on us, human nature is to oppose it. We push back. And that makes it feel like we're stopped. And we are in a lot of senses. And so why is that different for some people? I think some people, their onboard wiring just feels excited about new. But in my experience, that's a small percentage. You will have seen that in one of the characters in the parable. And then there's the second answer to the question. I think some people have had enough experience to realize, and they've thought through and processed and understood, this change can lead to something better. And so for them, it's motivating. So I think it's one of those two reasons that probably causes some to be really ready and agile to move forward with the change.

Yeah, and they're kind of polar opposites by the sound of it. Well, let's use that as a thread to start the— I read the book, I think it's great, and I think everyone should read it because I think it's a quick read, but it's a slow burn to think. It gives you ideas, which is the purpose of it.

Yeah, the beauty of a parable, right? That's the beauty of a parable, Gary. That's exactly what it's meant to do.

Oh, it worked. I love the parable. At the beginning, your intro to the book, you talk about a leader's dilemma during change. Could you explain what it is? 'Cause I think it sets the scene for the conversation. What is it, and what advice do you offer leaders with that in mind?

Yeah, I think there are 3 dilemmas that come from this. I call it a leader's dilemma, just to kind of group it all together. But the first dilemma is, as a leader in an organizational change, I am personally experiencing the change. I have my own reaction to it, my own emotions, my own concerns. And so one of the dilemmas is, I'm a leader, but I'm really worried about me. Mm-hmm. The second dilemma is that a leader, often in the middle of an organization, isn't the one initiating the change, but they're being expected to implement it. And they may or may not have all the information they need. They may or may not fully agree with the change, but they find themselves needing to lead the change. And I think within that, sometimes there can be a second dilemma for leaders. The dilemma of how do I lead this when I'm not clear or I'm not fully invested in it yet? And then the third dilemma centers around the fact of what we were talking about earlier, Gary, and that is a lot of people have had really negative experiences with change. 70% of organizational change initiatives fail to reach their intended outcome. 88% of employees in my research say that the change is going to lead to something worse for them. They just have this negative experience. And so one of the dilemmas is, as a leader, the third dilemma is saying, how do I help my people who probably are starting from a non-positive point of view move into this change in a way that helps them engage and get to an outcome that feels like the change was positive? So that's a Two words, leader's dilemma, and there's a lot wrapped up in it that is so important for a leader to consider. How do I help them? That's what the story is about.

That's fantastic, and it's really good context because people presume that the person leading the change has got it all sorted out, but the truth is they feel the same way as everyone else, which is, what does it mean to me? How would it affect me?

They're humans. It's natural. That's exactly right.

Yeah, so it's kind of double trouble if you're a leader. No one knew that when you got promoted and it said on your business card you're going to be the boss. You You show your wife and you think, oh, it's amazing. Oh my God, actually it's quite difficult. Okay, well, that's a good backdrop. And then in the river routine chapter, we can see how complacency gets rocked, to use your terminology. And it got me thinking, taking aside the point that as a leader you're not 100% sure, you have to pretend you are, I guess. How do you bring people with you when they're all of different opinions maybe different places in their mind, particularly the naysayers, as you say, because people have had a negative experience, and maybe yourself as well. How do you bring people with you when they're all in different places?

Well, this is part of why I wanted to write the parable, because so much of change succeeds and fails based on the people. And a lot of change management practice is really focused on the process and the workflow. And I wanted to encourage the world at large to pause and say, Hey, there's people involved here. So if we continue with the boat idea, which is of course in the, in the parable, if we introduce a change, it's the equivalent of having everybody be in the same storm, but in their own boat on the water. And some boats might have holes in them. Some boats might be a lot more prepared for the storm, and some people might be prepared for the storm. So the leader's role in that is to recognize that each person will have their own unique reaction to the change, and that's not wrong, it's not right, it just is. So as a leader, if I can recognize where people are at the start of the change or in the change, what's their boat like, what are they experiencing, it gives me the ability to then uniquely identify how I work with them. And so I often have people use the equivalent of a persuasion map Who's going to be for the change? Who's against it? Who's persuadable? And why are they where they are? What could I do that will help move them towards the change? Now, there's a lot to that, but at a basic level, recognize the individual and then figure out how to do something that's unique that helps each person make progress.

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, Curtis, from your experience, because sometimes managers see people that are naysayers as the enemy, but that it might be because they're not informed. What's your advice to people that, you know, that it's a challenge, it's not easy when you've got naysayers, but not everyone needs to agree. Agree with you, right?

No, they shouldn't. At the minute you have everyone agreeing with you, you should probably get really nervous about the change. Yeah, you should get really uncomfortable. So the naysayers play an important role. You know, if we use the characters in the story— resist, minimize— they're both in, in that category of naysayer. It's important to understand what is it that's causing them to feel and react that way. And make sure it doesn't represent something that we've missed as we're thinking about leading the change. Once you can understand those concerns and address them, then you've, you've brought to the forefront the benefit of what they offer, and hopefully you've also helped them start to change their mindset and engage. So you're right, they're valuable. Learn how to leverage their strengths rather than only think of them as weaknesses on the change initiative.

And do you need to get everyone on board, or can you manage with just some?

Yeah, this is the magic question that people ask, and I've even asked it. What percentage of people on your team need to be engaged for the change to succeed? And I think it's a little bit like a bell curve. On the far right side of the bell curve is probably enthusiastic or excited for the change. In the middle is cooperative, and on the left is probably resist. I think as long as you start to move the majority of your team under the bell curve and a few to the right, you're just fine. That's not, there's not one right answer for it, but you're always going to have a distribution along that.

Yeah, and I guess also people can change, right? They can maybe flop from one to the other.

Well, that's what we want. We want to help them make progress, and that's part of the point of my writing is to say, as a leader, how do I help you where you are, make progress, and move towards engaging with change.

Yeah, I guess it can go both ways though, right? So someone can go from being positive to negative. Of course. Keep your head down. Yeah, in the River Routine chapter, which I really liked because it's very relatable, it talks about conversations about communication. And in most change situations, looking retrospectively, people normally complain that the thing that went wrong the most was lack of communication., and normally that's because the leader tries to keep some kind of secret of the change that in case it causes a ripple in the team, they don't want to say stuff they shouldn't say. So sometimes they don't say anything. What's your advice to leaders about to keep communication going, or at least start it anyway and keep it going?

Well, first of all, I think it's really important for leaders to understand more information rather than less is always a better answer. And the second thing I would say is one of the reasons leaders don't share information is they don't have all the answers, which highlights a flaw in leadership. To assume that you have to have all the answers is a mistaken thought process. Part of the reason we have teams is because they have expertise. So learning how to share what you have, acknowledge the information you don't have that you need to acquire, so that your team can help be part of the solution, that's where we really get into change leadership. And all of that suggests more communication, not less, and also probably some storytelling around the idea of the vision. Where is this change taking us? Why is that important? And what could it lead to that's great for us? Not that there won't be speed bumps along the way or rapids in the river, but, but to acknowledge the outcome that we're working towards and why helps the leader communicate a story, and people respond well when there's storytelling involved as a leader.

Yeah, that's true. I mean, I've worked with a company recently who was going through a big change, and because they didn't know what to tell people, they didn't tell them anything. And that's never a good thing, right?

Nope.

They thought it's best not to say. Not so true. People started leaving. That's really interesting. And in the next chapter, Up the Other Side, you show even the best thought plans go wrong. Which we know, I guess. But what's your advice when your implementation of change doesn't quite go as you expected? What do you advise, apart from panic, what do you advise?

Yeah, well, it's funny you say panic. This is the place in change where most changes really start to struggle and fail to reach the desired outcome. And so, what we're doing is we've implemented a change, it's created an impact on the team, right? We have brought our people into the storyline, It's created some disruption, and now we're trying to say, okay, how do we work together to actually get this in motion and implemented? So there will be setbacks, there will be struggles. Part of what happens— organizations don't like to give people permission to try things that don't work. So often we— you have to try it and it has to work, and that really crushes the creative process to implement a change. So I think one of the things leaders can do is give their people space to experiment and learn and then try the next thing. And obviously in every organization or context that will look a little different, but giving that space for people to really bring their expertise and figure it out, knowing that if something doesn't work perfectly, they've got the ability to learn and grow and do something new, that's really an important leadership skill and not a very comfortable one. Because we all work with such limited resources of time, money, team size, etc. The other thing to do is, as a leader, don't get into micromanaging if it's not working perfectly. That's just a trap because it assumes that you then have the expertise, which you may or may not. Give your team the space and the trust. Don't micromanage. And the third thing I would say is figure out how to celebrate when things do work. Oh hey, we made some progress there. Let's celebrate it because you can build momentum based on the small victories to help you get through the large victory.

That's great. But Curtis, in the book, you created a stress situation. You can intentionally create a challenge, and therefore you create the situation where it feels like there isn't time to do those things. So how do you deal with that when you're under this pressure that you've created in your book, but is true of real life, right? How do you accelerate that?

Yeah, so the reason we did that is because I, you know, that journey up the cliff in the story, if you look at the even the image there, they go up, they go back, they go down, they go sideways. And I think it reflects this kind of difficult, not linear trajectory through the change. And so the reason we created that in the book was because that's reality. There are always constraints. How do you help that? Well, one of the things a leader can do is if they can help their team get to that point with some pre-work around mindset, around reaction, and around choosing to engage with change, you then have the hearts and minds a little more connected to the change. So there is the ability to keep pressurizing that situation as needed. Inevitably, we stumble into some changes where we don't have that luxury. And that's where it does test us as a leader to figure out how do I motivate people, not take over, not take away the creativity. That's probably a bigger conversation, but it is a challenge. And one of the things I probably ought to say here, you know, people look to change management and say, how are you going to make it work perfectly? I would suggest that it never works perfectly. My question is, how do you make it 30% better? Or 20% better or 70% better. It's never going to be perfect. And so you are going to stumble into those moments of imperfection.

No, that's fair. And I think we'd all agree with that. But as you said at the beginning, a lot of people have got a mindset of the past where it didn't go well and they keep drawing on those things, which is useful or not useful depending on the situation. But let me give you another angle on the same question, really, which is around sense of urgency, because it's much more straightforward to have a sense of urgency when the boat's collapsing or there's a real genuine sense of urgency right now, this minute. But as a change agent, what's your thoughts about creating a sense of urgency in order to get people to want to join you on the journey? And I don't mean, you know, sabotage the boat, but what— yeah, what's your thoughts on creating a sense of urgency as part of the story?

Well, it's naive in the world where we live and work to think that there isn't some urgency in everything. Otherwise, we wouldn't be making the change, right? There's always going to be some urgency. So I think it's an appropriate thing to say, we have some deadlines or constraints that we're up against, to help people understand the business realities of it. That's, I don't think you can avoid that. When you get into that climb up the cliff, if you're not careful and you, pull back on the sense of urgency, you actually don't make it all the way up the cliff. You end up settling for a lower outcome, or you end up going back to the way things were. And I suppose that's a second way of saying, if you don't create a sense of urgency, you actually slip back to what used to be. And then all you've done is create this tremendous cost related to the change, and you haven't accomplished any of the benefits that are supposed to come from the change.

Yeah, no, the reason I'm asking, and I think you make good points, is that through the activity that with different companies I work on, there's lots of cynical people because they've seen it before and they think if they wait 5 minutes, it will go away. And so I was wondering, you know, getting your advice on how you overcome the cynics because they're quite right, actually. Change gets aborted all the time, so they're probably right.

Yeah, I mean, if you, if you think about it, that's why 70% of change initiatives fail to reach their intended outcome. That doesn't mean they just failed, but they didn't get to where they were supposed to. And so cynics have a rightful claim on that. Such a large percentage of changes just don't accomplish what the messaging was. So they're justified. And that's why that character Wait is in the story, because Wait says, hey, I've seen this before. I'm just going to wait. I'll bet things go back to the way they used to be. And that's a reality that we have to live with.— and it goes back to the third dilemma that leaders face. We have to acknowledge that and prepare and help our people to move beyond that kind of mediocre outcome.

Yeah, absolutely. So I think it's one of those, probably in the leader's dilemma, thing to look out for, by the sound of it. In the final chapter, it becomes clear that different opinions and thoughts can actually be helpful, even if they're not the same as yours as the leader. So my question is, can you explain why? And then the second part of the question is, is it important to adapt or should you stick to the plan? Because some people are so relieved that someone agrees with them that they don't want to adapt it.

Yeah. So obviously, you know, it's a parable, it's a story, it's meant to give you space to think about it. The reason we start to have each of the characters, the 5 characters and the captain, be more aligned as they get to the top of the cliff is we're trying to suggest that through the change journey, they've learned to recognize and value their differences. So rather than always see the negative of each character, you see the positive and learn how to work with those differences. And that's why in, in the parable, they're able to get along and they're able to leverage the strengths that come from that. Does that make sense?

Yeah, absolutely.

And so, I'm sorry, what was the second part of the question again? Let me make sure I don't miss answering that.

Is it important to adapt, or should you stick to the plan? Because some people are so relieved to get agreement, they don't want to adapt.

Yeah, we tried to convey an answer to this, but again, it's always interesting what people will pick up. As they went up the cliff, the idea of going up the cliff and realizing that won't work, we have to come back down or we have to build a bridge that goes a little bit different direction. That's attempting to share and illustrate the idea that implementing a change is not a straight line. And I think if we aren't willing to be flexible, we actually end up producing an outcome that's less than we wanted. So much of the value that comes from the change comes from the adapting and flexing along the way because we learn new things as we try and implement it. Things we didn't know when we started, and it would be probably quite arrogant to believe that when we started, we knew everything we needed to finish. So take the learnings along the way and adjust.

Okay, so here's a chance to practice. So looking back in your career, you used to be a customer service manager at ZZSoft, or whatever they were called. Yeah. And you helped them move to a subscription model, which is actually quite trendy for now, to be honest, but you did it quite a while ago. Because of all your experience and knowledge, knowing what you know now, would you, if you had that project again, going back in your career, would you have done it differently knowing what you know now?

Yeah, that's a great question. I haven't thought about that in a long time. I'm glad you brought that up. That's like a sneaky question, but what I like about the question is it causes me to reflect on the group of people that were involved, and our biggest barrier was in their mindset around the change. And because they weren't willing to adapt, a few of them, it meant that we really struggled in the transition of the business model. We were funded by a venture capital group, and the group that was funding and a couple of the leaders found themselves not being willing to flex as we learned. We brought in consultants and we learned a lot about what we should do, But because we couldn't flex the mindset, it made it a really difficult transition, ended up costing us a lot, including the leadership group eventually disbanding because it required some new leadership to come in. So, I mean, there were a lot of learnings about change from that experience.

And any kind of killer change that you would make that would make the biggest difference now you know?

I think that the killer change I would have made knowing what I know now is I know better now how to communicate about what's going on to influence people's thinking. So back to your point you made, my own communication skills as a leader applied with my 20 extra years of knowledge would have, I think, been helpful in terms of how I influenced and helped others along the journey.

That's amazing, isn't it? It's great to be— I mean, it's easy for us to look back, but obviously at the time it's always difficult. Yeah. So here's a question for you. Do you like change? Oh no.

That's a— yes, a qualified yes. You sure? A qualified yes. Just like me, just because I have so much experience in this doesn't always make it easy. You know, think about a personal change. You know, a child that you love decides to move away and they live in a completely different part of the country or the world. That's not easy. I would never say I like that. Would I say that I've Understood how I can make that a positive and how they can make that a positive. Absolutely. And that's a large part of what we're trying to do. I don't know that there's always this magic formula, right? Really lousy change happens in life. COVID lockdowns, death of a loved one, other changes at work or restructuring. A lot of those things lead to really tumultuous times. And the goal isn't to just whitewash this, whitewash that, and make it become happy land. It's to help people have the tools and the skills to navigate it in a much better way so that the benefits of it can emerge faster.

So would you say change is good or bad?

It's very good and very necessary.

Good. You were straightforward, Curtis. You didn't hesitate for a second.

Yeah.

And I agree with you. I think, you know, overall, when people look back, it's always a good thing. But sometimes in the moment, not so much. Okay, I've got one more question before I hand you over to George to understand your musical taste. And look, the book's a great read, I highly recommend it to people. And part of the book is about thinking and reflecting on what you've read and how it applies to your team. So with that aside, if you could advise our listeners, apart from telling them to buy the book, with 3 key things about how to manage change as a leader, what would they be? If you could only come up with 3.

Yeah, that's a, that's a good question. So the first one is acknowledging that leaders are having their own experience in the change, like we talked about with the dilemmas. I think it's really important for leaders to recognize, I'm in this and I have two roles I have to play. That's super important to recognize. The second thing is that each one of our people are experiencing the change in unique ways that require you as a leader to uniquely work with them and help them. Just having that recognition can make a significant improvement in what's going on. And the third thing I would say is there is a fairly predictable process that the parable illustrates, from the, the calm to the chaos of a change to the finding your way back through it and hopefully getting to new and better things. I think if you recognize, as the third point here, that there is this predictable pattern You're not alone. You're not the first one experiencing that pattern. But if you recognize that pattern and look for it, it will help you take a little bit of a breath as a leader and take some measured steps on what you can do. And as a plug, at the end of the book, because you said I couldn't, so this is 4.2.

You go for it.

There are some discussion questions back there that are intended to help leaders to use that third point and make some something useful of it with their people.

Yeah, and they are great. I mean, one of those things, it's really helpful to organizations to do that. So Curtis, thank you so much. I'm going to hand you over to George, but thank you. It was really inspirational. The book's great. And I think there's some fresh ideas on an important topic that, you know, for a lot of people is difficult, but I think you help us navigate, if that's the right terminology, through it with your boat. So thanks again, and I'll hand you on to George to identify your musical tastes.

Yeah, thanks, Curtis. It's a fascinating subject, and this is obviously a slightly odd thing that we do at the end of every episode because it's always something really, really interesting that people really get under the skin of. And then I sort of just chime in and ask for someone's musical taste, which sounds odd, but we do find that it's a, it's a really interesting sort of window into their, I guess, professional lives, which is one of the many reasons we obviously got you on the show. So it doesn't have to be change-themed. There doesn't need to be a link to the theme of this episode, but it can be anything that's been motivational or conciliatory or anything that sort of played a big part in your professional life and we contribute those two or one or two tunes that you give us to our company Dr. Spotify playlist. So without further ado—

Perfect.

What are they?

Yeah, I'll give you the first one is the new song by OneRepublic called "Connection," and I'll even tell you why I gave that. I've noticed with my teams all over the globe that the remote working has taken a toll on people's emotional well-being. And so this year as a leader, I've really been focusing on helping people connect in person if possible, but intentionally outside of just the work function. So One Republic, "Connection," and the lyrics are brilliant about that. It's— I think it's a brilliant song and message, catchy tune, and that's why that one. Great. The other one is just musical preference. I love a cappella and, um, and that kind of music. So there's a group called Pentatonix.

Oh yeah.

They've been out for years. You could pick any song by Pentatonix that you liked and I would give it a thumbs up. They're one of my favorites. I just love the style of music.

Great, good choices. As someone who used to be in a barbershop quartet, I can thoroughly get behind that. So, uh, so yes, thank you very much, Curtis. That's terrific. I'll make sure those are contributed to the list. And yes, thanks again.

Thanks, Curtis. Thanks for joining us.

My pleasure. Thank you, both of you.

Thanks for listening, and a huge thanks to the sponsors of today's episode, Franklin Covey, who transform organizations by building exceptional leaders, teams, and cultures that get results. If you enjoyed this episode, there's plenty more where that came from over at thecompanydoctor.com. See you next time.