Why I Started My Consulting Career During the Worst Recession in History …and Why it Might be Relevant Today #34

After all, all art is experience. Hello and welcome to The Company Doctor. Today I'm getting inside the mind of the company doctor himself, grilling Gary about his early professional life, what it was that led him to take a leap of faith during a particularly turbulent time, and what we can all learn from that experience. Head on over to thecompanydoctor.com for blogs, show notes, and special guest appearances, and in the meantime, enjoy this episode: Why I Started My Consulting Career during the worst recession in history and why it might be relevant today. Gary, hello. How's it going?

Hey, George. Listen, there's something I'm visually noticing about you. You seem to have a facial hair. How lovely. It makes you look so much more grown up.

Oh, I was going to say— who are you going to say? Younger?

Oh, yeah. Younger. Sorry. Trendy. You look more Shoreditch.

Yeah. Great. That's what I was going for. I was actually going for Texas, but Shoreditch is is the Texas of East London.

And tip your hat down a minute. Oh, you're not wearing the normal hat.

You've got a new hat.

No, different hat.

You've got a new look. New tash. Yeah.

A new me.

Loving it. Because we're doing things in a slightly new and different way this week.

Oh, great lead-in.

That's nice. Love that. So whereas usually Gary is very much in the driving seat and I'm a sort of sounding board, this episode I'm going to be asking some grilling questions to Gary about how and why he started his business. And yeah, I think that's, you know, it's a new format. Yeah, you should be. They're good questions and I think you're going to have some great answers. And it's a topical thing. Obviously, you started your business a long time ago, but now more than ever, it seems that people are looking to go off on their own and aren't really prepared to work for anyone else other than themselves. So it's topical, it's now, it's as cool as my moustache. And I think for my, for the first question, I think there won't be too many people listening who aren't aware vaguely of your journey, I guess. But perhaps we could start off by— you could take us through your background before you decided to launch your own business. What were you doing? What sort of line of work were you doing? What sort of companies were you working for? Because that'll give us a bit of background as to why maybe it came to a head and you decided to do your own thing.

Yeah, good question. So it's weird, actually. I was always in technology because I'm quite geeky and I love technology. But I started to manage teams at a young age. I actually started a charity when I was 15, and I thought, I thought I liked being in charge, so I thought being a manager would be easy, which it wasn't. And so I ended up managing large teams within technology, but started in, in kind of operations. But then I realized that when I got into consulting, and I realized that because I'd been in operations, I understood people's problems and I had an empathy for it, and I was quite good with people. And so I believed my own PR and got into leadership that way, really.

Yeah. And it was big corporations, big companies, wasn't it? It was, you were in a big pond.

I was in a big pond. I was a small fish, but in my head, a big fish in a small pond, in a big pond, sorry. But I always enjoyed working with people and I've always been a problem solver. Right. And that's just the way I'm wired. I like solving problems and I like them, the stickier and nastier they are, the better. Okay, so that's kind of how I—

So yeah, and you've told me before that it took you 25 years to finally, you know, from sort of thinking about it to actually doing it. Maybe you can just talk a little bit about what was standing in your way, why it took the time that it did.

Yeah, I've got an easy answer for it. So when I was 10, I wanted to work for myself. So I visualized myself behind a desk with a suit. Bear in mind, this is a long time ago, right? Thick carpet, big office of my own with my name across the door. Yeah.. And then when I hit the real world, I'm basically very conservative. And, you know, I wouldn't have called myself an entrepreneur. I wasn't brave enough to go and do it. Then I ended up earning a good salary and I didn't have the guts to do it, but I always wanted to work for myself. And it took me 25 years to find a way to de-risk working for myself and giving up the alleged trappings of being a senior manager with high profile.

Yeah.

And now I know it doesn't matter.

So, yeah. So it— yeah, it took you a while. You're obviously cautious about it. That's not always possible for people. But when you did finally decide to do it, you decided to do it during the time of the biggest recession in memory. I guess, why then? And what does that mean? Does that mean that you just sort of have to do it when the time is right? Is there no such thing as the right time? It clearly worked out for you. But why choose that time, I guess, to start your own venture?

Well, I wouldn't say I sat there and thought, you know what, we're in the worst recession, I'm going to go and work for myself. But I, I did do it, and most people thought I was mad, including my family. Although wife very supportive, just add that in there. But, and she genuinely was. But the point of, of doing things is, yes, you should— if you want to do something, you, you do it when it's right, because you've got to have a reason. If you've got a reason, that doesn't matter. And secondly, if you can use adversity to propel you which is easier to say than to do, then, you know, that's what I did. I used adversity to propel me, you know, so I was petrified pretty much most of the time and mentally broke.

Yeah, and what, so talk a bit about that mentally broke because you mentioned it before and I think it's a good, especially at the beginning of starting your own business, what does it mean and, you know, how does it translate into sort of actually into action?

I think it depends on the person. It could paralyze you into doing nothing because you're so worried that, that you never get off the ground. Or in my particular case, it made me hungry. And particularly in the recession, it made me hungry because it created a sense of urgency. And if I wasn't successful— the reason I left corporate life is I want to be in control. Careful what you wish for. Now I'm in control. If I don't do something, then I can't feed my family. And that's genuine. Yeah, yeah. No turkey for Christmas, no cornflakes for breakfast. So I, I created a situation where I was hungry enough, but I managed to maintain that for 10 to 14 years where I kept mentally broke so that I was continually hungry and had a sense of urgency. Yeah.

And we saw people doing that in the, in the pandemic during the COVID pandemic as well. And I suppose a similar sort of mindset was needed to get through that. As I said at the beginning, more and more people seem to be doing this at the moment. So it is a timely topic, but it's clearly not for everyone and it can be incredibly challenging, as I'm sure you discovered. So perhaps you can run us through a few of the qualities that are needed and a few of the lessons to live by when not only setting up your own business, but then actually once you've done it, what are the sort of things that are needed? What would be your sort of summary of advice for people?

Yeah, that's a good question. I think, look, first of all, it's not for everyone. So you don't have to be in your own business to be successful. You can be successful in anything. I generally wanted to go into my own business since the age of 10. I didn't have the guts to do it, but I managed to get there eventually. Some people feel that they need to give up their job and go and do it because you'll be successful. And I don't think that's the case. So if you generally want to do it and it wasn't because, you know, maybe you lost your job and you feel that I better do that to make some money, which is okay as well, by the way, then you need, you need a reason. And the reason you need a reason is I mentioned earlier, you've got to be self-propelled. And it's not just something you put on paper. You generally have to go up every day and do something because if you don't, nothing's going to happen. And the second thing is that the thing that's made the most difference to the growth of my business has been networking, right? And, you know, we've done quite a few episodes on networking because that's kept the momentum. But there's no point networking unless your personal brand is at the right level and that you maintain it. So I've spent a lot of time building personal brand as part of my DNA. And networking like crazy all the time. Yeah. And just a high level, because we've done lots of episodes on it, but it's not about me and talking about me, it's talking about them. And it's the opposite way around to what people think. I'm trying to take a genuine interest in people and taking time to meet them, but add value to them rather than it's something for me. Yeah. And so that— so basically, what, over the, over the years, I've built all my income from networking with the pre— the pretext of what I've mentioned already, and doing, you know, 20 to 30 meetings month consistently.

Yeah.

And that's created enough revenue and I can always make money now. I've got a blueprint on how it works and know how to make money. So I'm not worried. I've stopped losing sleep at night. Yeah, I had probably in my first year because I know how to make money.

And sticking with the topic of networking and speaking to people who are currently in the situation of considering starting their own business, do you need to sort of have a scattergun approach where you, you know, you're networking all the time in the lead up to that big leap? Or is it enough to maybe have 2 or 3 really good reliable contacts or leads that you know will be able to supply you with a business to keep you going at least sort of over the first year? What did you do?

Well, because I'm mega risk averse and I had a good— I had a high income, so I was a high roller, as they say. I couldn't take the risk of not having something in the hopper. So personally, I de-risked things and some people might be listening and thinking, well, it's a bit wimpish, but this is what I did. Because you asked me, I went to find work before I left where I was. Right. And when I had a purchase order— and it took quite a while, to be honest, it took me 6, 7 months or something. But when I had a purchase order in my head, I set up a company. I forgot to say that I set up a company because it felt like I'm in business now. Yeah, I was trying to take the excuses away from myself. So I set up a company, opened a bank account. I even registered for VAT, which you don't need to do before you're earning 75K. But I absolutely did that. Because I was going to build a business. So yeah, psychologically I was all excited. A logo, you know, it doesn't get more exciting than a logo, a bank account. And now I had a purchase order and then I had a decision to make, which was a tough decision to give up. I was climbing the corporate ladder. It just happened to be the ladder was leaning against the wrong wall in my mind. Yeah, but that forced me to go and say, yes, I'm going to do this now. But I did. I did take the time before to get the work.

Yeah. And did you also— because we talked about telling people what you're doing. Just so that they can hold you accountable. Did you do that as well, or was it— or was sort of getting a bank account ready and all that sort of stuff, was that your equivalent of telling people?

Well, actually, I did two things. I did tell people, and most people I would say I spoke to would say, okay, in brackets, are you sure? It's a recession, Gary, what are you doing? Yeah, including some of my family. But I did tell people, but I actually did a bit of a kind of a test first. So in parallel, I went to 10 or 15 people and said, I'm thinking about doing this. I'm not trying to sell to you. I'm thinking about doing this.

What?

And this is what it is.

What do you think?

And do you think I'd be good at doing it? Don't tell me because you're my friend, because I want to help my business. Do you think genuinely I'll be good at doing this?

Yeah.

And pretty much a couple of close friends who didn't know me like that went, well, I don't know if you can do any of that, but most people went, yeah, you'd be really good at that. And I actually got some work out of it, not unintentionally.

Yeah.

Someone gave me some coaching work because I think they felt sorry for me. It's a shame it's come to this. So why don't you coach one of my team?

Yeah, nice. Well, it worked out, obviously. We've talked a little bit in the past about imposter syndrome, and I can imagine that when you're starting your own business, this is sort of intensified massively because you've got no one managing you to sort of say you're doing a great job or, you know, we're really impressed with, you know, what you've done. Did you experience imposter syndrome at the beginning? And if so, How did you get past it?

Yeah, I did, and I, and I still do sometimes, to be honest, because basically it depends what people listening, you know, you can be doing, being in your own business, doing whatever. If you're freelancing or consulting, people are buying your expertise, and the fact that someone pays you for your thoughts and your knowledge or your work is quite intimidating, and it makes you question, well, am I— why would they pay me? I mean, I'm not that great. So if you're thinking that, don't, because you do have value because otherwise where you're working, you're not adding any value. So if you're adding value at work, then you can add value outside of work. And then the other thing about being a consultant is you get a chance to do it better next time. We spoke about it on the last episode. So if you, you've done a project and you get that type of project again, you're going to go, actually, you know what, last time I did this, I didn't work.

I'm going to do it differently and then I'll do it better.

So you're always improving on what you do and therefore you might have a much higher value. People don't think about that as consultants. They think that they're people that don't care and it's not true. I actually care more than most people. I come home and talk to my wife about why the company is not listening or doing something. She says, why do you care? You don't work for them. I go, I do care because I want to get a result. That's what I'm here for. So I think the imposter syndrome comes from that intimidation. And I remember once I met, I was networking with someone and we're having coffee and he said to me, would you coach one of our CEOs in the company? And I'm going, and then he said, I'll arrange a meeting. And I went to meet the guy and he was in this office, very, I won't say the company, but a big company, and on the top floor you could oversee London, and the carpet was thick and there was like antique furniture. And I had a moment where I thought, what the hell am I doing? Why would he be paying me? In fact, that this person I was coaching was earning £1 million a year. Why would he want little old me? Yeah, he used to be in computer networks to go and help him. What do I know? So yeah, I think it's natural to feel that way, but get over it quickly because you've definitely— whoever's listening, whatever you're doing, you've always got value. Don't be arrogant about it, but you can always add value. And if you're not adding value, you shouldn't be doing it, to be honest. But I think you will, and it's natural to feel that way, I think.

Yeah, I think so. And so are you saying that you should go for those opportunities when they present themselves, even if you feel like you're not ready?

Why not? I mean, don't do things you genuinely can't do.

Yeah.

But do things that are stretching. I tried, it's an interesting area that we're talking about because in the first 5 or 6 years, I went out of my way to do things I felt really uncomfortable with. I remember doing, I did a training session for a very large company., and I went the night before because they were having a, a dinner and there was 250 people there. And then I was training 30 people the next day, and it was my very first training course with someone was paying me. And, you know, I'm quite outgoing, but at that time it didn't feel natural. I didn't know anyone.

Yeah.

And I forced myself to go and speak to people and put out my hand and say, I'm Gary, how are you, blah blah blah. And it was hard. And that helped me the next day when they were in my training course because I met them and I thought it was a normal bloke. Yeah, but it was— it's hard and you have to put yourself in a position where it's difficult. And I was worried the whole time they're paying me, will I be any good? And I probably wasn't that great, but I lived another day and I got better next time. So, you know, push yourself.

Why not? Yeah, that's good advice. And I think I may know the answer to this, but how do you know when the time is right to make this move? Is there a sort of a, right, I've got all my ducks in a row, time to get cracking, or is it You just, you just take the leap when you know that your mind is in the right place.

Well, you do know what my answer will be, because my answer will be is that there isn't a right time. The most important thing is if you genuinely want to do it, and the test should be this. If you've decided you want to do this, but then think in your mind, if someone offered you a job at a funky company like a Google or something, and I'm making it up because it might not be relevant to the person listening. Yeah. Would you take that job or not? Because if you asked me the question when I got started, I genuinely wanted to work for myself and I wouldn't have gone and worked for Google if they offered me a big job with big money. Because I decided I want to work for myself, even though it took me 25 years.

Yeah.

So the question for you or anyone that's listening is how much do you want to do it? Don't do it if you don't really want to do it. You might want to have a play with it because you can get another job again, I guess.

Yeah.

But only do this because you want to do it and not because someone wants you to do it.

And how important is likability and sort of personability and stuff? Because, you know, especially in a role like, you know, consultancy work, you have to be approachable and a likable, I guess to an extent, a likable person. You know, I went to the osteopath this morning and he was an incredibly nice and charming man, and I'm going to happily go again on Saturday.

But if he'd been a real bastard, I mean, you could say it on the podcast and tell everyone.

Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, and he, you know, he's obviously working for himself. So there must be an element of there needing to be likability to the people who are looking to set up their own business in all types of business.

Yeah. You know what I think is massive? And it might scare some people that are listening to this. I think being likable is so misunderstood. It's absolutely vital. And I'm not saying you manipulate people to like you, but blimey, you've got to try hard because some people are difficult to build a relationship with. But in corporate life, you can play on your brand. You know, when I was a senior guy working in like an AT&T, anyone would see me. But now I'm Gary Gamp, who cares, right? Yeah. So people need to like you enough to want to build a relationship. You know, when you— if you want to network with people and you want to spend time, if they don't like you, they're not gonna— they'll be too busy, they'll be washing their hair.

Yeah, yeah.

And when you're in corporate life, you stop being normal, so you use language that doesn't make any sense. Like, you wouldn't talk to someone about, I don't know, being a thought leader, or, uh, what do people say? I'm gonna— I can't even think of some of the phrases, but, you know, I'm gonna brainstorm. You don't talk that way in normal life, and that doesn't make you very likable. Whereas if you're You know, I would talk about adult to adult. If you're kind of a normal person and you're having a conversation that we're having, then people like you. And if you take it, you need to take a genuine interest in them.

Yeah.

Rather than talking about yourself. The secret to being likable is not talk about you, which I'm finding quite hard now because I'm talking about—

Well, I think in this instance it's fair enough.

Well, I think you do. Just one last thing, Drew. I think you need to adapt because it's different things for different people. Some, some people are very kind of succinct. They like to know, I don't want the fluffy stuff, I want the detail. Some people like to know, you know, that you need to take them on the journey. So I do think you need to adapt your style, but ultimately you need to talk about them, not about you.

Okay, that's good to know. And you know, last couple of questions really, but this is a Gary Gamp-esque question but turned on you.

I know what's coming.

Yeah, um, so, well, okay, maybe not. What was the biggest challenge that you faced when you were setting up your consultancy, and How would you tackle it differently today?

That's an easy answer for me. The most important thing, if anyone's wanting to start their own business, I don't know if I'm stealing your next question because I haven't seen them, is to focus on business issues. The easiest way to have to make money during a recession or any time is to talk to people about their issues and they have to be genuine, their issues, not the things you think are their issues. And it's heightened during the recession and therefore, you know, that will get you work. And then the other connected to that, if you're successful doing that, you'll end up getting work and then you'll say something like, well, what happens if I get too much work? I mean, that'd be a nice problem to have, wouldn't it? But it isn't. So what happened to me is when I started, I was so driven that I had my first year was my best year. I wasn't working smart at all. You know, I was, I was acting like I worked for a company because it was comfortable. So I had the laptop in there. Telephone, I went to their office, I just made me feel like I was in the company. And then I went to all the meetings. As a consultant, you don't need to do, you shouldn't do that. I can run 4 or 5 customers concurrently without having a heart attack. But at the beginning I was doing them concurrently and I don't know, it nearly killed me. And it's just not an efficient way of working. Think about this. If you're about to go on holiday, like you are, you get everything done and in shape so you don't have a bit of a drama while you're away and when you come back. As a consultant, I do that every day. And that's something I've learned. It's taken me— it took me 5 years to learn how to be super efficient and run multiple things. Because you, if you're not fast as a consultant, if you're not responsive, if you're not, you know, doing what you say but being fast, then you're— you become what everyone else expected you to be, which is yet another blood-sucking consultant that borrows my watch and tells me the time. That's not what I want to be. So my learning would be how to work on multiple things and be super efficient and be super responsive and not trying to act like you're an employee because you're not.

And sort of how do you do that without— because there's the danger, isn't there, of, as you say, running yourself into the ground. And that can appear quite desperate. And, you know, you could appear, you know, I'll take anything on. You know, I'm just in it to try and get as much cash and as much work as humanly possible. Where's the line between, as you say, working efficiently and taking on clients and dealing with them with the sort of attention they deserve and taking on too much and running yourself ragged?

Yeah, it's a very important question. I think it's about setting expectations. So through that lifecycle of work, I'm telling the customer that I don't work for you and I don't work every day. I'm setting expectations and I've got a very clear set of deliverables and objectives that I'm working towards. Other things will come at me and I won't say no to them, but I'll go back to them and say, I'm working on this. I will. I can work on that if you want. I can get someone else to do that. But this is what I'm working on. I'm going to deliver it. And then you have to be impactful early. If you wait, say you're doing 3 months work and you don't deliver anything to them for 3 months, then, then again, they've gone back to thinking bloody consultants. Whereas if in the first 4 weeks you show something impactful, that moves towards the goal of things you said you deliver, so they can see progress that's high quality, then your reputation stays high. So I'm telling people all the way along about what I'm doing, if I've got issues, and setting expectations. And that's the best way to do it. So I'm not saying no to anything, but I'm framing it back to a kind of my statement of work or the set of objectives that I had and making sure I deliver. And that's the way, the only way to do it, I think.

Great. I'm going to ask you for your 3 key takeaways as we, as we near the end of this, because there's been some really interesting stuff in there. I very much enjoyed asking you these questions and I think it's a massively pertinent topic for a lot of people who are looking to try and do this. And, you know, we talked about side hustles and stuff in the past and, you know, a lot of people will start their new business as a side hustle, see if it works out, and then branch out using that as their main business. So previous episodes as well, we've got loads of really interesting stuff around side hustles and around, you know, some of the principles that Gary's been talking about. But to round this episode off, Gary, if you would please give us your 3 key takeaways.

Yeah, it's hard to do 3, to be honest. I'm going to do 3. Well, I'm going to do 5 dressed up as 3 because, you know, there's some really important things that I think go together. It's a bit like a 5-legged stool. So the first one is you need a reason. Now don't, don't go and work for yourself if you generally don't want to. And the test, as I say, is if you got offered a super job, would you take it? And don't be, you know, be honest with yourself. But I, I did have a big reason that was important to me. The second one is probably the most important thing you need to do is to network like crazy. And don't network without building your personal brand. Go back an episode or two, you'll find that with us. Because when I was senior, I was confused by my personal brand because I had status. But when you're on your own, your reputation and credibility comes from your personal brand. So it's a bit of a loop. Yeah. And you know, the network— we've done a lot of stuff about networking. So networking is absolutely vital. Focusing on issues. If, as long as you focus on issues, you've got a chance, not guaranteed, but you've got a chance. Don't build propositions of things you think people might not like. Ask them what they want and do it that way. It's the quickest way to getting work. And there's something we haven't spoken about, but I just need to throw in there. I know it's not a takeaway, but it kind of is. Don't try too hard. You know, when things didn't work for me, I was trying too hard. I was desperate. And there's nothing worse than the whiff of desperation. It's kind of a repellent. Yeah. I've talked about running into Trafalgar Square with a loaf of bread and chucking it at the birds. Yeah, that's exactly what you're doing. Don't chuck bread at people, they hate it. And the final one, you won't be surprised to hear, is do what you say. Yeah. If you're gonna stand for something You know, I hate flaky people and, you know, customer services don't call back, salespeople don't follow through, people don't do the things they promise. And it becomes the norm. If I say I'm coming, I'm coming, and I stay to the end, you know that. So my final thing, not wanting to have it on two episodes, is do what you say.

Excellent. No, I think that's, as you say, that is incredibly important. And especially if you're trying to establish yourself as a new business, you have to be someone that follows through and delivers on what they promise. So that is incredibly useful stuff, Gary. As always, thank you very much. Our next episode, I believe, is a live studio recording. So do tune in next time to hear that because it's pretty special. And yeah, thanks, Gary. Thanks to you all for listening.

Thank you very much. You have a great day.

Bye. Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode and want to listen back through some of the previous episodes mentioned in the show, visit thecompanydoctor.com.