#2: Is data important? Training with Cadel Evans

G', day, ladies and gentlemen, it is Jordan here and I want to thank you for tuning into another episode of the Trivelo Coaching podcast. Unfortunately, we had some audio issues with this episode, so this was one of my favorite episodes that we've done so far. I really, really enjoyed. There is an epic story in there of dad training one on one with Cadell Evans, which I really, really enjoyed. And I was very disappointed to hear the audio back. And here we had some. Some sound. Some hissing issues, so they will be fixed for future podcasts. But just wanted to do this little introduction to say that we apologize, but we hope that the content of the episode is worth it to make up for the poor sound. So without further ado, please go ahead and enjoy the rest of the episode and we'll see you in there and then on all future episodes to come. Thank you very much.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Tribello Coaching Podcast. Tribello Coaching specialises in cycling and triathlon coaching.

My name is Jordan, and I am.

Joined here today, as always, by the Australian Ironman champion, the Australian Duathlon champion, the Commonwealth Games representative for triathlon, and three times Australian Masters champion of champions, and also happens to be my dad and founder of Tri Fellow Coaching. And that is the one and only Gerard Donnelly. And, Dad, I know you're cringing right now, but I thought if we are. If we're going to do a podcast, the world needs to know your accolades.

Welcome. Thanks, Jordan. I'm a bit speechless with that introduction. Are you going to do that every week?

Yeah, I think. I think I will. I think I've decided I will. So what's on for today? What's on for today's episode?

Okay, Jordan. Well, there's a whole lot of things that happen in my week, week in, week out, and I get questions from a lot of the athletes that I'm coaching, both on the phone and when I'm able to arrive at some of them. And it's always intriguing as to the variety of questions that are all similar. They sound like they're different, but they're all asking the same thing. What am I doing? Am I doing it well? Am I doing it right? And so really, today, I want to talk about what is important. What numbers and what data is important to the everyday cyclist out there who is just trying to get better.

The overwhelming world of numbers and data.

Yeah, and it's really something that I, you know, I've come from the old school of cycling and triathlon where, let's face it, I had no data when I competed. And to have all of this data at my fingertips is. It's like a whole new world's opened up for me. And I can either refuse to accept it or I can embrace it. I can. And I'm just so into it. As most people know, the data is telling a story, but you've got to not forget that at the end of the day, sometimes you gotta race and the data's irrelevant. And so that's kind of what I'm trying to get across today, that there's times when you really need to focus on what's best for you and there's also times when you need to race. And I think Julian Kainer in his podcast a few weeks ago said exactly that. There's the race that he got to qualify for the Olympics. He had to race that as a planned, executed, paced race using data. And then when it came to the championship race, that goes out the window. You've got to race the race, but you've still got to use the knowledge you have about your ability to race effectively. You can't just throw it completely out the window. Absolutely.

So for today, we're going to be going through. Yeah. What is relevant and what's really not relevant. And I was gonna throw a joke in there and say, you mean to say you want all those accolades with no data. I know you cringe at that as well. Don't want me to keep going on about all your efforts.

But the important part is, I think.

This is why we brought this up, is me coming into the cycling world and seeing you and all your mates get into it. I feel like at my age, I'm very tech savvy and I can understand a lot of technology. And I came in and I just see the amount of gadgets you guys have in the apps and the amount of power meters or range of power meters out there, or all the smart apps you're using, the smart trainers, it's just overwhelming the amount of stuff you can use. Why would you use it, for what purpose and what it's giving you. And the data can be overwhelming. So I'm keen to find out what's actually important and what should you leave with?

All. Yeah, it's a really great topic to talk about and as you've found out, it's just overwhelming when you first come into this world of cycling and it's just not cycling, it's all the other sports as well. But certainly cycling is the leader in data gathering and how we use that to our advantage is What I'm trying to get across rather than saying data is the be all and end all. I'm not saying that at all. Because you still need to have that uncanny ability to perform in a race. And as you probably have experienced, if someone attacks you and you look down and you're already doing 500 watts. Oh, sorry, I can't follow that attack today because my data tells me that I need to stay within my limits. Well, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if someone attacks you, the data is irrelevant. That's the time when you need to follow the race. But there'll be a time where that person keeps going at 500 watts for two or three minutes. And you know that your critical power, which we'll talk about later, is five minutes at 350. Well, pretty much know you're not going to be able to sustain it for much longer. So it's a bit of cat and mouse, bit of blocking. And the person who's got the better mental capacity to withstand the onslaught of continual attacking and can use his data knowledge going to be the better racer. But not only the better racer, but you know, on beach road, you know, if you see someone attack and you know that they're not, you already know who they are, their ability that comes into it as well. Not only your data, but knowing someone else's ability, they can't hold this for much longer. It's got to hang in here for another 10 seconds.

Sounds like a headache though, trying to remember everyone else.

Data.

That's right. When did it change for you? When obviously there was data starting to be introduced.

When did it change for you where.

You said, I'm going to get on top of this.

Yeah, look, there was a, there was a one ride that I'll never, I'll never forget this one rider. I don't mind if you mind if I tell this story, but it really hit home to me and we would travel down with you, with my children, you guys, to Bowen Heads every summer and I would always take my bike down there and I loved riding in groups around Australia where we went on holidays, we go to Noosa, we joined the Noosa group, we go to Bowenheads, we join the Bowen Heads group, etc, etc and that's one of the great things about the camaraderie in cycling is you can go anywhere and find a group and ride and normally the group will be very inviting most of the time. Yeah. Which is, you know, part of the socializing of why we ride our bikes and why we love riding our bikes and why we want to get better and beat up our mates who are riding on those Saturday morning groups. But this particular year, we just heard that Cadell had bought. Cadell Evans, of course. We bought a house in Barnheads. And I'm talking, I don't know, early 2000s, 2005, 2006, something like that. I've actually got a photo of me beside Cadell by a mate of mine who took a photo. He went out and got in his car and drove ahead of our bunch. He knew he'd be on the road. He knew he'd be on the road and just took some photos of the bunch as we went past and I said to him, get a photo with me and Cadell riding beside each other.

Did you orchestrate?

Yeah, you did?

We did.

And we had such fun that day, just laughing that he happened to be at the right spot of the road where I was decided to go, although he had driven a couple of times. But anyway, that's completely off the topic of the story that I'm trying to get across. But Cadell would ride in the Barwon Heads bunch and he was fantastic. He would. The morning ride would start at the roundabout of Barn Heads. Footbridge is across the road from Barnhead pub there. The group would start in at Ocean Grove at whatever time it was, and then they would meet the next group at Barwon Heads. And then from that point on you go past 13th beach and all those details. It's the same sort of Saturday morning route that most coaches would have around Australia and Kadal would. They'd do country turns where every two or three minutes, the guy on the front on the right hand side, they'd ride two, three or side by side. The guy on the right hand side would roll to the front and everybody on the right hand side would move up one. So you get to talk to a new person every time. So that's country turns. So we've got rolling turns, we've got track turns and we've got country turns. So that's. That's one thing I think listeners can learn of what country turns out. If you ride a lot in the country, you know what country turns out, you spend some time with someone else on the front.

Yeah.

And anyway, that was great because Cadell will get to talk to everybody in the bunch and everybody knew that he was an up and coming professional. He had the lotto, whatever the lotto team kit was then. It wasn't. Someone will tell us what it was. But there's been so many kits. But Lotto's been one of the original teams and Robbie McEwen was in that team. He was, right, yes, he was, yeah. He come from. He's doing well already. German telecom team. Yeah.

Yeah.

So, yeah, he was, you know, an up and coming. You know, he would have been a star as a mountain biker. So. So what would happen is normally he would ride for a period, then he would peel off and the bunch would continue on a Saturday ride and Cadell would go and do his own training. And this one day I went off. When Cadell peeled off, I joined him and I wasn't sure whether he was happy with that or not. And he had no idea who I was. It was. And he could turn around and say, do you mind not doing it? But he didn't. He let me stay there and I didn't really say anything. And then he started doing some interval training at the back of Barnheads. There's a place called Para Karak, which is. I've done quite a lot of races. A lot of listeners have probably raced down there as well. Get the long bets and there's a circuit around there with very few cars and me hit me all the circuit. So. And he was doing, I think he might have been doing 10 minute efforts, three by 10 minute efforts and sorry, the story's too long winded, but. But I was intrigued as to. I was looking at my speed and that was the only thing I had on those days. I had a polar heart rate monitor. So I had heart rate and speed and distance, I think in time. Didn't have any power numbers or anything.

That's still what I've got.

Yeah. And anyway, I was looking down and we were, we were sort of doing 36, 38Ks an hour. I'm going, yeah, that's not that good. I can keep up with this. But I was sitting behind him the whole time getting the slipstream. As you know, it's 30 easier behind and every now and then I just go to the side and nearly lose his wheel as I came out from his slipstream and go. And we're doing 38, 40 into this. When. When he slowed down, I said, oh, good job, what are you doing? We're doing three 10 minute efforts and the course we were choosing sort of swung around and so the next 10 minute efforts we were doing 48, 50K an hour and I'm at my limit trying to hang on the back of his slipstream because it was obviously a tailwind. And anyway, we got through that session and he sat up and said, oh, good job, you know, kind of saying, oh, you're still there. So I was pretty pleased with myself. And then he said, oh, I'm going to go to Point Addison, do some hill repeats and anybody knows, it's on the other side of the Anglesey Torquay Road on the beach side from Para Karak. So we cross over the road, go down, and I haven't been down there, but it's a surf spot car park and it's got a dead end roundabout at the bottom. And we went down to the bottom and rode up the hill first time together. And he said, right, the next time you turn it halfway and I'll go to the bottom, I'll chase you and we're going to do 10 repeats. How awesome is this? I'm going to do a section with Cadell and he's using me. So I started riding those hill repeats just out of my skin. And sure enough, every single one he'd get me and I'd go down the hill less each time so that I had less hill to ride and I was getting tireder and he was just phenomenal, just repeating. And it just really made me realize how hard this guy is riding. But going back to the 10 minute efforts, I said to him, how do you know what you're writing at? He said, I'm just writing to power. And I said, writing to power. This is 2,000, whatever, five, eight, I don't know, I never heard of the word power except that, you know, your powerful weight lifter or. He said, I've got an SRM power meter and I know what my FTP is. And he's using words that I just had no idea what they were about. And so we're in the middle of a training ride, so I couldn't really ask him many more questions. Anyway, when we finished the two session effects, which was the 10 minute and the 10 one minute, we said, I'm going to go around the Bells beach circuit now. And we'd already been out for four hours and it was going on 38, 40 degrees.

And what was your mindset at this point, Egon?

The euphoria of riding with this guy was overcoming the fatigue that I was feeling and the dehydration that I was obviously coming on at a rapid rate. And I reluctantly said to him, I'm done. I'm still at the other side of Torquay and I'm living in Barnheath still another 45 minutes to an hour to get home, I've got no water left it's 38 degrees and you're talking about doing another loop. So, anyway, so we parted ways and I thought, oh, I've got to tough at home. I've got to keep the tempo going. I've been training, you know, a pro rider. So, stupidly, I didn't stop at Torquay for a drink, just kept going home, got home in a mess, just nearly pretty pedal the last 5k from 13 beats to the finish and collapsed at home. And your mum was sort of saying, what happened to you today? Because that's not normally what happens when I come home to arrive at the bottom. I probably was the strongest rider in the bunch anyway, so. But. And the next day we met for another ride and we made eye contact and Darl said, oh, how did you pull up? And I'm so sorry that he remembered me. I wore the same kit again. And I said, oh, devastated. I said I was euphoric, but I was devastated at how I just collapsed. And he said, yeah, I stopped at Torquay on the way home for half an hour, had a nice brekkie and lots to drink. And I'm thinking, here I am thinking I'm tough by riding home and not fueling. And that's the difference between a professional and an amateur. I just was so dehydrated, I could hardly ride the next day because I just put myself in such a state. So the lessons I learned was, wow, power. What is that? And then I was able to talk to him side by side the next day and say, tell me everything about power. He said, I was in the future. And I said, oh, I've got to be across this. But I was still from the old school where just, you know, you just do your long ride and just go back to you and, you know, perceived exertion 1 to 10. You know, this is a five ride or this is an eight rider, two ride. But I learned that, that, you know, this is the new thing that I need to understand. And as a exercise physiologist, it was brilliant. I couldn't get enough. I couldn't ask him enough questions. And he was sending his data to his coach in Belgium and they were talking in between then and the next day to do the next session. And he had all his power numbers and this is all new to me. And he was explaining how the FTP worked and how he got his. How he got to ride to this particular number and didn't matter whether he was into the wind or with the wind. And there was so much detail that was coming out of his mouth. That was such a light bulb experience for me. What a ride. And the fact that to manage your ride and I ended up riding five and a half hours or something and I was only, I only had the nutrition for three hours, the dehydration, the intensity of a professional trainer. Because I was at the beach with you guys in the afternoon at the bridge. We used to go to the river in the afternoon with all the kids and here I looked at the bridge and I saw this guy behind a moped, which was his wife, motor pacing him in the afternoon of that same day.

And so that's stacking it up.

Yeah. So he's done two sessions in one day. One was a five hour and in the afternoon at five o' clock, he was out there spinning his legs behind the mudfeed.

Had you forgotten from your pro days how hard you get to train?

Yeah, well, just, I thought triathletes were exceptional and maybe a bit mad with the amount of training they did. I didn't think bike riders and it was a real eye opener to me to see how professional. But again, you know where he got to. So, you know, he might have been an exception to the rule, but I think most pros ride like that now, except the sky team are all over that sort of stuff.

Incredible ride. So that got you on the power journey and as well as teaching you some pretty exceptional lessons. So after going down that path, I mean, take us through another 10, 15 years of experience of looking at power. What is important? What do we need to know now for anyone who's beginning or even through to a more advanced level? What, what do you pay attention to?

Yeah, and look, it's such a general question, but it can be very specific. We try. And there's so much data that you shouldn't use the word irrelevant. There's so much data that can be ranked of importance at the bottom of the scale. You would say maybe it's irrelevant, but it can be used for some one piece of 1% that will be useful at some stage. And then there's the data that's at the top of the list. And of course, if you're using power, the number one thing you need to know is what is your ability to ride for an hour, what's your power number? And that number, you train to that number from that point on. And the method we use is the functional threshold power test, which is a 20 minute test. You can know the outset hour test is the actual one we should be doing.

Is that because it's more accurate.

Yes, yes. But good luck telling someone to go, try, go do an hour's FTP test. I think you'll have a revolution. No one will do it. It's just too hard mentally and also to find a venue if you don't live in the country or find a venue where you can ride Velo drone, you can do that for an hour. But you know, people sort of ride an hour on the dollar drone. At your highest wattage you can sustain. That's kind of the definition of insanity. So if we take a percentage of the 20 minutes, then we're going to get really close. We're not going to get exactly. Because I know from my own Data that my 20 minutes is higher than my one hour, my 95% of 20 minutes, which is 5% accurate. We take into consideration the hour. It's still a little bit high. So that's something that already there's a little piece of information there as a coach that I need to take into consideration. I'm coaching people. The 20 minute might be useful for the one hour comparison, but there is definitely a slight variation, positive or negative up and down.

So you'd say FPP is probably your number one priority. Do a 20 minute test, take 95% of that to the hour. That's probably at the top.

Yeah. So that's your starting number. And as we talked about a few months ago, we have a thing called critical power, which is the power based upon time. So you can have critical power, 5 seconds, 10, 30, 1 minute, 5 minute, 10 minute, 20 minute, 30 minute hour, up to 3 hours. It's kind of what the data we use to see. And why do we need all that information? Well, it's just like we also talked a few weeks about what's the value of max VO2 testing. So what is critical power and what's the difference between why don't we just use max VO2 testing? So let's talk about the critical power usage. So if you come to me and you say I want to be a quick rider, then the 32nd, 10 second, 5 second stuff is really important data that I need to know to see what sprinting ability you have. The 20 minute, 30 minute, one hour stuff, you're not doing a time trial in a cliff, you're doing a race where there's unpredictable changes in the actual one hour. Someone's attacking someone, sitting up, someone chases someone, breaks off the front. It's so many changes and then you've got a sprint at the end. So the critical power number is relevant for us for our sprinting ability, for our five minute breakaway, our two minute breakaway, 30 minutes. If you're in a breakaway bunch or if you solo. These are all numbers you should know beforehand so you can refer to it in your race. So how do we measure those? Well, we find the peak number in a training session or we use them in a race.

Do you find that I know you personally have your highest five or 15 seconds from a race. Do most people have their highest critical power points in races or.

Yes, absolutely. The races are the ones where you get the highest batteries because you should be fresh and depending on if it's an A race, a B race or C race. So the data is important depending on what race you're using it in. And certainly I know that the bunch rides on Saturday. Whether you're in Australia, whether you're in Western Australia, whether you're in Victoria or Queensland, you'll probably have your highest peak power from your training over a period of time in that bunch ride or the race. Yeah, they're the two times where. And that's why I use the bunch ride as the really good training tool. One of those rides a week is great. Or a race. So if you pack it to racing, you need to have the bunch ride, which is kind of similar, but the same intensities, but not quite because you don't have a number on, but it's as close as you get to a race. So the data information for that style of riding critical power is really good after the race. It's not so valuable in the race. And people who are really old school riders are always saying, yeah, the data crap in the middle of the race, who cares? And they're right.

Yeah.

Because when the race is being going up the road, what are you, you going to look down and go, I'm not following that lead because I'm already at the limit? No, you're going to race the race.

Yeah.

And at the end of the day when you get home, and this is what I do with all the athletes, I check the skill, see what area were they lacking and when they got dropped or when I couldn't go off the break, the data will tell me what they needed to ride at and what they were able to write at. And so therefore I can say, oh, you're really weak for two minutes there. We need to hone in a bit more on your critical power for two minutes. And we'll do some sessions where I'm going to ramp it up to two minutes in the training program.

It's like you said at the very start of this episode was the person who can combine racing or riding with the knowledge of data will be best off. Because if you're in a breakaway, this is the example we used a few weeks ago, which really resonated with me, is that if you're in a breakaway, you've got to just go for it.

Because it's a race.

But you can also know in the back of your head what your critical power for five minutes is, or if you've got 15 minutes left for the race and know what you're likely on about. A hole.

Yeah. And what you said just a minute ago was you bothered the choice of going with the power or going with the race. The best of both worlds is the way to go. Use the old school guys going, no, I don't care about data, I'm just going to race the race and then each week I can't understand why I'm not improving. Whereas if you just look at his data after the race, he could identify his weak areas. He would probably know that I didn't sprint very well. But he has no data to back that up. And if I can see that, you know, you needed 700 watts to win that sprint and you still got done well, we need to make the sprint 800 watts. And if that makes you win, then you've actually achieved something from the data that we've got from after the race. Perfect.

So basically it comes down to, I mean, they're the top two. Is there a couple more? Because I know you basically just categorize it as what's important is taking ownership of your numbers. So ownership of the FTP, ownership of the critical power numbers. Is there anything else we need to be taking ownership or do you have those two?

Yeah, look, there's a really good example early on when I was coaching and we had a bunch ride on a Sunday morning, we'd go around the Dandenongs and I'd meet them at the bottom of the tourist ride, which is kind of an iconic hill like the one in 20 years. And I'm sure every state in Australia has, you know, I'm going to go to Adelaide, ride Norton. It's a time trial, you know, it's great. And you can always measure yourself against your previous efforts and everybody else on Strata, etc. So we were going to do a particular ride where everybody's warmed up already and we're going to start from that point and do a 20 minute effort at the. And I was saying, I want everybody to ride at their functional threshold power for the day. And within two or three seconds, what's my number? And I was just disgusted. I was saying, what, you don't know your number after all this time? Did you know the numbers? Yeah, I knew the numbers. They should know their number. And if I wasn't there, what were they going to ride? What number are they going to ride to? Well, they probably would have found out before they went, but because they knew I was there, they were lazy and they were going to rely on me telling them. And this is what power it's. I want people to take ownership of their own numbers. So when you're in a race, you can't yell out to me, what's my number? You should know it. And I suppose there's a whole lot of functions on the Garmin or whatever computer you're using. The priority of having that on the face of your screen is quite crucial, but it's very determined on what event you're doing. If you're doing the three peaks and every time you get to a climb you want to work out, you know, the climb at Hotham is an hour and a half. Between an hour and a half and two hours. So you know that you can ride at 80% for that two hours. So you know, for example, if your threshold is 280% of that is 143. So, okay, I'm just going to set myself at 140 push lap at the bottom of Coffin. Now tap away. And of course the incline changes up, down, there's a few downhills, gradient changes, but the overall hour and a half, you want to see it around that 120, 130 mark, you don't want to see it fluctuating. So that's one thing you should have on your screen. Is your lap power percentage power going to tell you that you should be riding at 80%. But as each pedal revolution goes by, it fluctuates with the pressure you put on it. So it could read 88% for two or three pedals or it could read 72. As you take the pressure off, you say, oh, I'm riding too high, all of a sudden I'm riding too low. So it's not a really good thing to have on your screen. It's good to glance at it. But that lap power for a long distance training session where you're doing 20 minute efforts, 10 minute efforts, 5 minute efforts, they're really crucial numbers that you need to have on your screen. So what are the things that you were saying, well that's really important. You've got the right number for a triathlete. You certainly want to have your average power for the whole ride. Because most triathlon races are reasonably flat. There's a lot of examples of races where it's incredibly undulating. And Kona, the World Ironman Championships is one of those. It's a 16k hill. So pushing lap at the bottom of that hill is crucial to any athlete I've ever coached to go to that climb. So they would know that their 16k effort is going to have to be at a particular wattage. So that is important to have on your screen, but so is also the overall average of that ride. Because as an Ironman competitor, as a cyclist it's 180k. So I know that the average from all the data I've collected, talking about data, relevant data is the average age Grouper rides at 75% in an Ironman functional threshold power in a half Ironman. He can ride it between 80 and 90. Being an age grouper, I'm not talking about the pros here. The pros can ride it between 1883 and there's very, very few pros who can ride above it and they normally have the fastest bikes fit.

So.

So I mean this might be too broad a question, but knowing all this, how do you manage the unpredictability of a race? Let's say it's not a time trial or you're going for a bunch ride. First part of the question is how do you know when you should be looking at the numbers of us racing or I mean you count the Saturday bunch ride as a mock race. How do you know when you should.

Be going or not?

And then how do you factor in when you're hitting a hill? It might not be that long. You're hitting a downhill because the lap power is going to go. Obviously you've got the average there, but at the time, how do you. If it's a two minute or four minute hill, how do you know what's.

Holds that two or four minutes? Because gradient's gonna be different.

There's so many different factors coming to that.

Yes, great question again, but it also depends on what you're training for. And what is that session? Is that session you by yourself during intervals that are, that are prepared for you? Pre prepared to sit within a range or if you're in an unpredictable ride on a Saturday or race?

Yeah, say it's unpredictable, either a race or a bunch.

So if the goal from the coach is that today I just want you to follow and stay with that bunch and all the people who you normally are around. Don't worry about your numbers today. Let's just follow, just race it, and let's look at your numbers afterwards. So it really depends on what the goal is. If I'm trying, for example, last Saturday, from my own experience, I'm wanting to see what's happening at the back of the bunch. So I rode tempo around and let all the guys go. And I'm seeing great new information from all athletes that are in that ride and how they're coping with. Because we have like nine climbs that we do around that circuit. So I'm seeing firsthand how people are coping and how they're measuring their efforts and. And, you know, I can still see people riding too hard at the bottom of the hill. And if you look and you know, this hill, this is one of the things in training, if you know, or in racing, it's why it's important to know what the course is. So if the hill is one minute and you know your best actual peak power for one minute is 600 watts, and you've done the first 20, 30 seconds and it's showing 930 watts, then common sense tells you that this is unsustainable, so you're better off. But as the coach said, stay with the bunch as long as possible. Then stay with the bunch at 900 watts. See what you can do. But if the coach is saying, you know, ride each of the climbs within your range, then, you know, you're always trying to push the boundary. What training is about is improving week after week and not just repeating the same efforts. So, yeah, there's so many variations to the answer to that question.

I guess I'm just trying to find out because I understand, I understand all those examples, but let's just say that I'm on an unpredictable ride. Let's say it's a race. And yeah, I want to figure out, maybe I'm trying to bridge a gap or something, or I want to figure out whether I can hold a group.

Or whether I can hold a pace.

How do I know up a hill, down a hill what my average should be? Because. Because it's going to be totally different. My lap power might be 140, especially 140. But going uphill, I'm going to be pushing 200. Am I supposed to ease off and keep it down? Around 140 or downhill, I'm going to be pushing 100 watts.

Yeah.

So how do you know at that time how far I've arrived.

Yeah. And one of the great examples I've had many times when I've said to guys, okay, Wednesday ride, I want, look, I want it to be around a 75% FTP of your FTP. So we generally average 30Ks an hour on that ride. And you know, classic example of just a guy started off the ride up a rise and he breaks away from the bunch and 30k's an hour and he's literally doing 30k's an hour up the hill and then sticking to the numbers and over the rise, he starts putting his brakes on because he's doing 40 now he has to pull back to 30 and we go whiz and passing and he found what? What are you doing? And that's literally taking it too far. Yeah. You know, you ride the hill. Obviously, if the Wednesday long ride is an endurance ride and it's a hill, obviously you can't ride the hill if it's too steep. At 75%, it's okay to be at 95 or 110. Doesn't matter because on the downhill you're going to be riding at 40. So the average of that up and down will end up being 75 overall.

So it is just the average. You're not so meticulous that you're worried about the water to push it up a hill or down the hill. You just want to see that lap.

Average day around that mark in the training session. That's exactly what we're trying to do for a particular session. And that happens to be the Wednesday Tempo Endurance 1. But I'm just picking a day and an event here. That's not what that is. High intensity sessions, you want the bits that are high intensity to be exactly where the power number should be. And that's where the data is important. And that's why the old school writer who goes by feel he might be writing, say we're doing another example nine by one unit efforts similar to what could go on. And I guarantee if I had had a power meter, my first effort would have been 700 watts and my last effort would have been 300. And that's. It will prove to me that, you know, I felt like I was doing the same effort and I was doing the same perceived effort, but I was at fatigue. My numbers have dropped that badly. The power meter will keep me, and I've done this many times, will keep me within the range. And the minute I fall 5 or 10% out of that range, I can't do it anymore, session's over. That's an indicator which we will talk about at some other stage.

Yeah, definitely.

Which is, you know, the power meter can be used to tell you that you actually, you're failing at the session, so you need to stop it and then not stop the session, stop the intensity of the session and continue on at a power number that you can actually feel like you got a training effect out of.

So that brings me to what sessions are the numbers vital and what sessions do you. If any of you say, don't worry about the numbers.

Yeah, generally. And look, the only time I would say not to worry about the numbers is, Is in your most important race ever. But in the back of your mind, you know your numbers.

Yeah.

And you would glance at them. And sometimes as you and I talked about the mental side of racing, if you look at numbers and it tells you that you're way above where you've ever been before, mentally, that could be damaging for you. I can't and depends on the person, I can't sustain this. But there's going to be some times where you're going to do an extraordinary effort and that's what it takes to win a race.

And there's so many factors like adrenaline.

Can play a big part of that. Yeah. And look, that's, you know, I've got a classic story which, which would really bring home that adrenaline point and the racing point, I think.

Yeah, I think we've talked about that, the infamous piano story on the podcast before, but we also spoke about.

I think we were discussing Chris Froome.

Because of the allegations of him cheating and people looking at his numbers and, well, they're above what he's capable of and they're looking at his numbers in some tool stages and going, they're above.

His normal what if?

And you go, well, how much of that is to do with. If he was taking drugs, if that was to do with the drugs, or how much is it to do with. It's the most important stage of his life and he has the ability to push himself beyond what he's done before because it's most important stages.

Yeah.

Unfortunately, we get clouded by what's happened with the last 20 years of 30 years of people continually cheating, and we can't work out whether it's real or whether it's manufactured scientifically.

I guess the point is, for yourself, like you're saying, if you are pushing abnormal numbers, then you don't have to freak out if it's important race.

Yeah, yeah, that can happen. Yeah. So the question you asked me is when are numbers relevant? When they're not relevant, they're not relevant in the most important day of your life where you're trying to, you know, win some Olympic Games medal, national title. You know, the most important thing to you, whether it's the club championship or beating your mate on Saturday, you want to go numbers higher than you've done before. And that's what you should be able to do. You should be able to do that when you're getting ready for that and, and hatred. And so therefore to say that people shouldn't be able to do numbers they've done before, it's quite unfair because that's what general progression is. You know, if everybody stayed the same, then you know what the race result is. It's the people who can go above and beyond. And that's why the data is not that important in those races. The data after the race is great because you say, that's the highest power number I've ever ridden, but that's quite.

A fine line as well to even just think about in training. That's a whole Pandora's box of just because you know your numbers, you can't be obsessed with them and go, I should be writing the exact same. If you become robotic, then you are not going to improve. If you're writing the same numbers each.

Week and training, you're not going to go anywhere.

You want to push those numbers?

Yes, for sure. And you've got to start somewhere. So the number you start with, when you do your very first FTP test, if you kept writing and training to that number for the next year, you won't improve one bit. You might improve fraction just because you've done consistent training. But if you progressively overload your training, and this is how we build at trial coaching, we set them the numbers that they're tested to and then we retest and once those new numbers come out, you set them those numbers so they will be higher slightly than the previous block. And as you progress into each block, 4 week block becomes 12 weeks, becomes 16 weeks, the number you started with. And I've got so many examples of people who come in the most recent and we don't like naming names, the most recent person who came in started at 220. No, he started at 180. Sorry. Now he's at 295 and that's after eight weeks and that's a phenomenal in rates. But he'd been riding for already a year where he'd been staying the Same. And he's just on the phone to me saying, I don't understand it. How is this happening? What am I doing different? I feel like I'm training just as hard as I was before, but I don't feel as tired. And there's so many things in that statement that you just say, because this, this the recovery you're getting and pushing you harder than you're ready for. Not doing it every day, you know, not doing the same session every day. You've got consistency now, you've got an endurance ride. There's so many factors in that. In that statement that you just made. He's asking me, how are you doing it? He's going, at the same time, I don't care how you're doing it. I just. I want more. It's great. So really there's just. There's just so many factors that are contributing to.

But knowing the numbers at the start is pretty.

So you will always be able to complete the sessions because they're your numbers. The minute you can't complete the sessions is because there's something else happening. It may be that you're sick or that your number is wrong. And if it's not the injury or sickness, more than likely the power meter is read incorrectly. And you've seen me gasping in after I look at someone's data going, how is this possible that the number is so high or so low? There's something wrong with the power meter. And that's one of the problems with modern technology is if the power meter doesn't read correctly and we get all these false readings, which therefore psychologically damaging if you can't finish the session. It's not because you're going bad, what's wrong with you. It's because the power meter stuff you have and simple characters. Calibration of most power meters will solve that problem.

Bit of a golden nugget is what you should be calibrating.

That's right.

Every session.

Yes. So that's. Yeah. One of the little tips is, you know, it takes 15, 20 seconds to calibrate whether you're calibrating your kicker or you're calibrating your power meter on your bike. You should do that every session so that you know the number that you see on the screen is going to be the same number you've seen week in, week out. And the minute it's changed, it could be only 5 or 10% out. And when someone's riding it, you know their limit is 395 watts. You've got some guys who can hold 395 watts is astronomical. Number 5% out. They both finished the session.

Yeah, Yeah, I actually asked you that.

Is it.

I mean, is it that viable for all the sessions?

And you said yes. Because one time I was doing a.

Recovery ride and I didn't calibrate it, and it was 5 or 10% off and it feels like so hard.

And instantly I knew there was something wrong. And I stopped the situation session, turned the power meter off, turned it back on again, and started the same session. My heart rate went from. It's not meant to go over 130, and the power was not meant to go over 150. The heart rate was at 150 and my power was ready 150. Well, something's wrong. Yeah, and that's, you know, that's when I say, okay, there's something wrong.

Yeah, it's either.

I'm not sick. No, I wasn't sick. I was perfectly healthy. So there's nothing wrong with the power meter.

Yeah, so that's where all the old school guys would go.

But it's a bit of both.

It's having the smart. And this is where you can't just be robotic to the technology. You've got to have the SMART to be switched on enough to not panic and say something wrong with you. Because the machine's code.

Yeah. And look, I'm a big believer in combining every single piece of information, whether it's the old school training, if it's the modern technology, it's the power meter. You know, if I didn't embrace the computer because I've grown up without it, you know, not even knowing what a mobile phone was for the first half of my life or what a computer was. But if I didn't, if I didn't go with those things, I wouldn't have a business. It's the same with cycling. If you don't actually embrace the things that are there, the tools that are there, and use them in the correct way. But you've still got to go and ride your bike. You still gotta actually feel how your body's coping and use that as a reference. And I say that a lot in triathlon. Look, the numbers are there as a reference. They're there to stop you from going too fast, and that'll stop you from slowing down. Because you can keep referring to them to say, okay, I'm in the zone where I should be. Just keep doing what I'm doing. Because I know these numbers will give me this result. The triathlon is really the biggest one where the data is super important yet I still see people not racing with a power meter which is to me incredible.

And it's part of the fun as well is that I know personally running.

I, I want to look at my.

Pace to see what I'm doing but I'm like, I watch all the time.

I just want to run it.

And the bike, you want to spend the whole session looking down because that's.

The point of riding. Yes, you're absolutely part of the bike. Yeah, yeah. And look days where you asked me before about when the power number is important and look, every single session the power numbers are important. The easy recovery ride, the power numbers are important not to go above, that's all you need to know and you feel that anyway. And if you start feeling yourself breathing too hard, well you know, if I didn't have any power meters I wouldn't know that. The old school test was can you keep talking to the person beside you? If you can't you're riding too hard. So the power numbers are important for the easy rides, they're important for the hard rides, they're important for the medium rides, they're important for racing.

So on that scale what do you say really focus on the high intensity sessions, the tempo rides, you just try to stay within the zoru.

Yeah, not too strict on you know, the recovery and the tempo and maybe the sub threshold sessions. You want to be within the range and that's why give people a bit of a range choice. And there's still a range in high intensity because we've got the lower end of the highest intensity and we give people the opportunity to go to the higher end. A lot of coaches will coach with zones but it's not specific enough. The range is too big because you know, zone four can be, if I'm using my own data it can be between 245 and 320. Whereas if I'm doing, you know, I want to do sub threshold which is 88 to 92%, it's like 4%. And 240 to 320 is not 4%. It's too big a range. So it's important that we use the numbers at the right time. And look, the high intensity sessions are really the ones where you need to be able to hit the targets. That's where the biggest improvements are going to be. The endurance, long endurance ride that's just, you know, anything, anything around that. If you're doing a four or five hour ride, you don't want to see an average of 84%. You won't train the next day. You want to see everything under 75% for the entire ride. You might have hard bits in it like we do on a Saturday, but eventually, because you've ridden the warm up and the cool down, which might be too early, or three hours at a really low intensity, it evens itself out. Like you're asking about the uphills and the downhills.

Yeah.

So you still get the effect of the number at the end of the ride. So they're really good measuring sticker. Also, you know, to work towards numbers, each session gives you a good overall picture of whether you're achieving the goal of. Remember we talked about last week about having a purpose of plans. Yeah. And outcome for each session. And you know, you can just tick them off. You know, I did the insurance ride properly, I did the high intensity properly, I did the recovery properly. Properly. I rest day properly. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So all those pieces of information are data that's available to us now. And whether we embrace that or whether we ignore it, it's up to us to. And I'm not a believer that if everything's available to you, use it for what it's worth rather than ignoring it just because it's not the way you do it. And I'm open to learning things every single day. Something new. You're teaching me something new about the technology of it. It's fantastic. I embrace it and if I didn't, I wouldn't be able to keep up with the progress of life and everything that's got goes along with it.

That's a really, really good point to finish on. I mean, unless there is. I mean that for me personally, that's a really good summary. That's why I do love doing these podcast interviews with you because I genuinely learning everything myself for the first time or sometimes the fifth time. I'm really trying to try and get what's important and what can really help them. I guess based on all those summaries, the FTP, the critical power and just taking ownership of the numbers is really quite vital and understanding how to apply them. Sessions, is there any other data that we're missing we haven't covered that we can cover in another session?

Yeah, look, there's lots of apps that are available to us in the modern world technology. We've got full gas with the Wahoo Kicker, the tax, everything on Trainer Road. There's so many, so many apps that you can use to adapt your sessions to good information out there, you just got to use them to your advantage. That's probably the main things you've covered already. And just knowing that these things are available, especially if you live in the Northern hemisphere and six or seven months, you have to be inside. It's really important that you've got things that are going to keep you motivated. And that's why technological things, if someone's injured, a lot of guys on our team is injured and not keen on the ergo, but doesn't want to risk crashing again. So ergo is the best option, you know, so you've got to embrace that technology or go to the Bell Drone.

Yeah.

Away from traffic, where you know you're not going to be injured. So, yeah, certainly use it to your best advantage.

Perfect.

That's a good way to finish off. So unless. Is there anything else you wanted to mention that's important for anyone here?

No, I just think just. Really just be open to everything that's available to you and embrace it. I think if you've got that mindset, then I think you'll have every piece of information you'll ever want. And how you use it is the key thing. You've got to use it to your best advantage and ignore the irrelevancies of some of the stuff that don't get caught up in the fine detail too much. So as a summary, I would say, yeah, make sure that you're open to everything that's available to you. Don't be too pedantic about it, but use your coach to find out whether you're hitting the right targets. And the coach will have set a program that will allow you to progress and improve as long as you stick to those ranges. Using the data will be the most effective way for you to get from A to B in a hurry.

Awesome.

Perfect finish.

And I've learned a lot from it today myself. That's why it's one of my new favorite parts of the week doing this podcast, because I get to interview your dad and find out stuff that I love about training that actually can really help. So for those listening, thank you very much for making it to the end of another episode. Again, you can find out more information of Travelo coaching@www.travellocoaching.com. we talk a lot about, you know, we're based in Melbourne, we talk a lot about the rides around here, but we are an online coaching company, so. And we do coach athletes all over Australia and soon to be worldwide. I think at the moment where we take on any athletes. But as an online company, we have unlimited access, so always remember to rate us and give us feedback with whether you enjoyed the podcast, what questions you have. You can send us your questions. So if you're listening on the anchor app or any other apps, you can actually go in and record a question and we can even play it on.

The episode if you want.

Or we can beforehand and answer it in the episode, or you can write a written question. But again, it's trabellocoaching.com and apart from that, thanks for joining dad, and we'll see you guys all next week.

Thanks, Jord. See you next week.